Yeah that is part of the reason modern is hard to deal with. Modern is insanely volatile all the time even in the off season, which makes it difficult to do a controlled purchase into a lot of the enduring decks. That's part of why its pretty much either scale the financial hurdle in one go or get stuck floundering trying to get everything needed to play most decks. Most successful modern decks tend towards wedge play, with the weaker budget options sometimes doing two color or very rarely mono, and many of the cards needed to play the wedge colors are the real killers, like Scalding Tarn and it's ilk. The fetch lands are needed on regular reprint since they are basically necessary mana fixing.
I am going to say this one more time. Build a T2 deck that you can win local store credit with. Not win every event you play, but make it to the pay out. Save that store credit and invest in pieces of the next deck you feel you wish to play. Soon you will have multiple decks to choose from and pieces to build other decks. Its a time consuming venture but anyone with multiple decks had to do it, and you are going to have to also.
Once you wrap your head around the market and how it works, it is not as bad as you make it out to be.
Yeah that is part of the reason modern is hard to deal with. Modern is insanely volatile all the time even in the off season, which makes it difficult to do a controlled purchase into a lot of the enduring decks. That's part of why its pretty much either scale the financial hurdle in one go or get stuck floundering trying to get everything needed to play most decks. Most successful modern decks tend towards wedge play, with the weaker budget options sometimes doing two color or very rarely mono, and many of the cards needed to play the wedge colors are the real killers, like Scalding Tarn and it's ilk. The fetch lands are needed on regular reprint since they are basically necessary mana fixing.
I am going to say this one more time. Build a T2 deck that you can win local store credit with. Not win every event you play, but make it to the pay out. Save that store credit and invest in pieces of the next deck you feel you wish to play. Soon you will have multiple decks to choose from and pieces to build other decks. Its a time consuming venture but anyone with multiple decks had to do it, and you are going to have to also.
Once you wrap your head around the market and how it works, it is not as bad as you make it out to be.
Here is the thing, I don't play at store tournaments anywhere near often enough to make that plausible, I mostly play outside of tournaments and use the modern rule set to keep cards in balance. There is no store credit or anything. I'm not competing against people at a tournament I'm trying to play modern and enjoy it with friends. That's a far cry different from what you seem to understand and yes, I've wrapped my head around the market, it's messed up end of discussion. If the market is built around people winning at tournaments you're making it sound even worse.
At this point you seem to be the one not able to wrap ones head around the situation plaguing the market in modern and have either given up or are sitting on a treasure trove and afraid to see it lose value, trying to constantly discourage anyone from bringing up valid points. The entire illusion of modern is believing that there is a treasure trove at all.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yeah that is part of the reason modern is hard to deal with. Modern is insanely volatile all the time even in the off season, which makes it difficult to do a controlled purchase into a lot of the enduring decks. That's part of why its pretty much either scale the financial hurdle in one go or get stuck floundering trying to get everything needed to play most decks. Most successful modern decks tend towards wedge play, with the weaker budget options sometimes doing two color or very rarely mono, and many of the cards needed to play the wedge colors are the real killers, like Scalding Tarn and it's ilk. The fetch lands are needed on regular reprint since they are basically necessary mana fixing.
I am going to say this one more time. Build a T2 deck that you can win local store credit with. Not win every event you play, but make it to the pay out. Save that store credit and invest in pieces of the next deck you feel you wish to play. Soon you will have multiple decks to choose from and pieces to build other decks. Its a time consuming venture but anyone with multiple decks had to do it, and you are going to have to also.
Once you wrap your head around the market and how it works, it is not as bad as you make it out to be.
Here is the thing, I don't play at store tournaments anywhere near often enough to make that plausible, I mostly play outside of tournaments and use the modern rule set to keep cards in balance. There is no store credit or anything. I'm not competing against people at a tournament I'm trying to play modern and enjoy it with friends. That's a far cry different from what you seem to understand and yes, I've wrapped my head around the market, it's messed up end of discussion. If the market is built around people winning at tournaments you're making it sound even worse.
At this point you seem to be the one not able to wrap ones head around the situation plaguing the market in modern and have either given up or are sitting on a treasure trove and afraid to see it lose value, trying to constantly discourage anyone from bringing up valid points. The entire illusion of modern is believing that there is a treasure trove at all.
If you are playing unsanctioned casual play with friends..why buy the expensive cards any way? Just proxie what you need. Card prices are meant to keep competitive Magic in check. In casual you can do as you wish. There is no governing body.
I dont see the market as messed up. Its worked very well for years.
Honestly, I don't think Modern can be fixed. The cards Modern needs (new cards or reprints) are cards they don't want to introduce into Standard. Modern is pretty much unsustainable as a format until this changes.
A key part of Modern was that it wasn't supposed to be just "Standard's Greatest Hits" but have you looked at the tier 1 of the format? It's literally all previous fast/uninteractive Standard strategies. We have Eldrazi of course, but in the tier just below that is Affinity, Infect, Burn. It's not until you get into the T2 and T3 decks that this changes. Eldrazi and the Twin ban are problems here but they're not even the only problem, the format has been heading in this direction for two years now, ever since Pod was banned really (which broadened the meta, making it far harder to interact and sideboard). It's just that more people are finally starting to catch on.
After all the years of playing modern, I'm inclined to agree, and hope people will turn to legacy instead. While legacy has its own issues, almost none of them really involve actual game play and meta.
After all the years of playing modern, I'm inclined to agree, and hope people will turn to legacy instead. While legacy has its own issues, almost none of them really involve actual game play and meta.
Legacy is not the solution you are looking for. Card prices would be astronomical.
After all the years of playing modern, I'm inclined to agree, and hope people will turn to legacy instead. While legacy has its own issues, almost none of them really involve actual game play and meta.
Legacy is not the solution you are looking for. Card prices would be astronomical.
Legacy solves only the problem of bannings since it's much more stable format than Modern in that matter which makes your investment safer but it's prices are higher making it harder for new players to join and prices of the most expensive cards (duals and similar) will only increase in time.
Its also been mentioned IF Wotc turned toward Legacy as 'the' format.. more bans would be needed in the format. Remember Wotc is aiming for a tv friendly format that will draw players of all levels into it. Thats why we are seeing the bans in Modern to 'shake' up the format for the pro tours to make the viewing experience better.
Again what the player base wants from the/a format is very different from what Wotc needs from the/a format. Some can not wrap their heads around that.
At the same time, players play an important role in investing into the format. Exciting PTs are great for the format, but interested people might give it up as soon as they realize a) prices are expensive b) there's a risk to their $1000 deck going down the drain. People in this thread have given examples of friends unwilling to make investments into the format and continue to play Standard instead (which makes sense since people have touted Modern as a cheaper format due to lack of rotation). I know you've argued that people buying only one deck forever is a problem, but there should be a balance between Wizards making money and players seeing it as a worthwhile investment to get into. I think many users in this thread believe that we've gone too far in favoring Wizards instead of the players.
That said, I'm personally not sure where we are. Only Wizards has concrete numbers about how the format has grown/declined in the past month and a half.
Yeah that is part of the reason modern is hard to deal with. Modern is insanely volatile all the time even in the off season, which makes it difficult to do a controlled purchase into a lot of the enduring decks. That's part of why its pretty much either scale the financial hurdle in one go or get stuck floundering trying to get everything needed to play most decks. Most successful modern decks tend towards wedge play, with the weaker budget options sometimes doing two color or very rarely mono, and many of the cards needed to play the wedge colors are the real killers, like Scalding Tarn and it's ilk. The fetch lands are needed on regular reprint since they are basically necessary mana fixing.
I am going to say this one more time. Build a T2 deck that you can win local store credit with. Not win every event you play, but make it to the pay out. Save that store credit and invest in pieces of the next deck you feel you wish to play. Soon you will have multiple decks to choose from and pieces to build other decks. Its a time consuming venture but anyone with multiple decks had to do it, and you are going to have to also.
Once you wrap your head around the market and how it works, it is not as bad as you make it out to be.
Here is the thing, I don't play at store tournaments anywhere near often enough to make that plausible, I mostly play outside of tournaments and use the modern rule set to keep cards in balance. There is no store credit or anything. I'm not competing against people at a tournament I'm trying to play modern and enjoy it with friends. That's a far cry different from what you seem to understand and yes, I've wrapped my head around the market, it's messed up end of discussion. If the market is built around people winning at tournaments you're making it sound even worse.
At this point you seem to be the one not able to wrap ones head around the situation plaguing the market in modern and have either given up or are sitting on a treasure trove and afraid to see it lose value, trying to constantly discourage anyone from bringing up valid points. The entire illusion of modern is believing that there is a treasure trove at all.
If you are playing unsanctioned casual play with friends..why buy the expensive cards any way? Just proxie what you need. Card prices are meant to keep competitive Magic in check. In casual you can do as you wish. There is no governing body.
I dont see the market as messed up. Its worked very well for years.
Mostly because no matter what you eventually do play at sanctioned events. We do proxy quite a bit and fully recommend people do so to try out different deck ideas. The trouble comes from those times we want to take those decks to FNM, which does happen from time to time. Even casual players ultimately have to buy the cards, it's not just people who run for the competition exclusively and this is where the divide happens on the subject of modern and pricing. Ultimately they do need to find a way to make modern accessible because it really isn't. Especially if wizards starts doing key card bannings and causing entire decks to tank. What makes modern better than standard is the interaction between multiple sets of cards from different eras and the complex interactions one can get when they work with a wedge color structure instead of a two color or mono color structure. Those decks have very expensive mana bases and some have cards that are astronomical in cost. Tanking any of those decks is going to make existing players angry, casual players who are trying to just get into the format angry because the deck they might be saving up for or were working towards suddenly is invalidated, etc.
Case in point, when modern has problems, everyone feels it. It doesn't matter how often they attend FNM, or if they are mostly casual or mostly competitive.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I still think you are missing some fundamental truths of Magic.
1. The secondary market is a thing, and it PROBABLY is a good thing in the long run for how it is with Modern. Restricted List is a distinct issue.
2. Unless you are telling me people have next to no disposable income, even if your group doesnt do what bocephus described and grinding out a deck upgrade, building a T1 (not every T1) deck is very achievable in 3 months. Just dont pick Jund, or Affinity.
3. Not everyone gets to have everything they want. Those who are willing to pay, can get those things. Thats just the reality of the Magic market/environment.
4. $30, even $50 a card is not 'astronomical' its just a competitive cost that must be paid. Now Goyf and Lily are gross, but they are such due to their position historically in the competitive scene, and thats just the way it is.
43 of the 100 players are on Eldrazi. This is not a "True" Day 2 metagame breakdown, but even if 0 of the other 211 players played the deck, Eldrazi would still be at 14% of the overall metagame. If the remaining 211 players had only HALF the Eldrazi representation as in the Top 100, that would still be 65 players on Eldrazi for a 21% Day 2 share. Of course, if the 43/100 held for the remaining 211 players, that would be the most lopsided Day 2 ever. Overall, I'm calling this a format diversity disaster. The other Day 2s are likely to be just as bad.
I still think you are missing some fundamental truths of Magic.
1. The secondary market is a thing, and it PROBABLY is a good thing in the long run for how it is with Modern. Restricted List is a distinct issue.
2. Unless you are telling me people have next to no disposable income, even if your group doesnt do what bocephus described and grinding out a deck upgrade, building a T1 (not every T1) deck is very achievable in 3 months. Just dont pick Jund, or Affinity.
3. Not everyone gets to have everything they want. Those who are willing to pay, can get those things. Thats just the reality of the Magic market/environment.
4. $30, even $50 a card is not 'astronomical' its just a competitive cost that must be paid. Now Goyf and Lily are gross, but they are such due to their position historically in the competitive scene, and thats just the way it is.
The problems mostly just a misunderstanding. When I'm talking about over priced cards I'm talking about things that have gone over 50 usd a piece. Plus most of the time you want more than one at a time, so there's a multiplier involved. The "best" scenario is keeping chase cards between 20-40 usd a piece that aren't foil or rare art prints, since that makes it trivial to get a playset of a needed card compared to having to grind 70 usd + scalding tarn or 100 usd liliana / goyf. Trivial being a relative term in this case.
Really, the best thing to do I've found is to just buy up what is interesting on standard pre-release for each set.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It will be interesting if Wizards issues an apology tonight or tomorrow for the meta then...
There is no need. Wotc is not going to put the money into testing for older formats. Since there will be no change, why apologize for anything? Just to make a few butt hurt players feel good until it happens again?
I wouldn't mind Legacy prices for Modern as long as you could play the same deck forever. Jund is kind of like that but I don't like playing midrange. If only there were another safe Tier 1 deck to play.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern RGTron UGInfect URStorm WUBRAd Nauseam BRGrishoalbrand URGScapeshift WBGAbzan Company WUBRGAmulet Titan BRGLiving End WGBogles
He's already on record as saying the meta is not what they wanted. Worry not, they will be contrite in any interview about the state of Modern.
Actually he said when they banned Twin this is not what they expected. To be fair we have not seen a Twinless format since the perfect storm of the ban announcement and the rise of the Eldrazi happened simultaneously. We have to see the format with a weakened Eldrazi deck to see what the Twin ban did.
Quote from Tanukimo »
I wouldn't mind Legacy prices for Modern as long as you could play the same deck forever. Jund is kind of like that but I don't like playing midrange. If only there were another safe Tier 1 deck to play.
Do we really need another stale format where the same decks compete for years? I would rather have different then the same personally.
The one unknown at the moment is how SoI is going to impact the field once it comes out. Eldrazi might have been a mistake, but we don't know if another "mistake" will happen or not in the future with SoI.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yeah that is part of the reason modern is hard to deal with. Modern is insanely volatile all the time even in the off season, which makes it difficult to do a controlled purchase into a lot of the enduring decks. That's part of why its pretty much either scale the financial hurdle in one go or get stuck floundering trying to get everything needed to play most decks. Most successful modern decks tend towards wedge play, with the weaker budget options sometimes doing two color or very rarely mono, and many of the cards needed to play the wedge colors are the real killers, like Scalding Tarn and it's ilk. The fetch lands are needed on regular reprint since they are basically necessary mana fixing.
I am going to say this one more time. Build a T2 deck that you can win local store credit with. Not win every event you play, but make it to the pay out. Save that store credit and invest in pieces of the next deck you feel you wish to play. Soon you will have multiple decks to choose from and pieces to build other decks. Its a time consuming venture but anyone with multiple decks had to do it, and you are going to have to also.
Once you wrap your head around the market and how it works, it is not as bad as you make it out to be.
Here is the thing, I don't play at store tournaments anywhere near often enough to make that plausible, I mostly play outside of tournaments and use the modern rule set to keep cards in balance. There is no store credit or anything. I'm not competing against people at a tournament I'm trying to play modern and enjoy it with friends. That's a far cry different from what you seem to understand and yes, I've wrapped my head around the market, it's messed up end of discussion. If the market is built around people winning at tournaments you're making it sound even worse.
At this point you seem to be the one not able to wrap ones head around the situation plaguing the market in modern and have either given up or are sitting on a treasure trove and afraid to see it lose value, trying to constantly discourage anyone from bringing up valid points. The entire illusion of modern is believing that there is a treasure trove at all.
If you are playing unsanctioned casual play with friends..why buy the expensive cards any way? Just proxie what you need. Card prices are meant to keep competitive Magic in check. In casual you can do as you wish. There is no governing body.
I dont see the market as messed up. Its worked very well for years.
After all the years of playing modern, I'm inclined to agree, and hope people will turn to legacy instead. While legacy has its own issues, almost none of them really involve actual game play and meta.
Legacy is not the solution you are looking for. Card prices would be astronomical.
In my experience that's relative. I built a Legacy deck on the money I got from 4 Eye of Ugin.
I believe Unresserved will be a thing, most likely pushed by players rather than WotC, and I wouldn't be surprised to see costs lower and more stable than Moderns just because of lacking a Pro-Tour and having more fine-tuning options even if it was picked up by SCG. Legacy went a very long time without ridiculous spikes and even the current RL spikes are more price-correction than the result of hoarding and collective stupidity.
After all the years of playing modern, I'm inclined to agree, and hope people will turn to legacy instead. While legacy has its own issues, almost none of them really involve actual game play and meta.
Legacy is not the solution you are looking for. Card prices would be astronomical.
Legacy solves only the problem of bannings since it's much more stable format than Modern in that matter which makes your investment safer but it's prices are higher making it harder for new players to join and prices of the most expensive cards (duals and similar) will only increase in time.
Its also been mentioned IF Wotc turned toward Legacy as 'the' format.. more bans would be needed in the format. Remember Wotc is aiming for a tv friendly format that will draw players of all levels into it. Thats why we are seeing the bans in Modern to 'shake' up the format for the pro tours to make the viewing experience better.
Again what the player base wants from the/a format is very different from what Wotc needs from the/a format. Some can not wrap their heads around that.
PT OGW was a disgusting train wreck, twitch hates Eldrazi, Eldrazi, Eldrazi, Eldrazi, Eldrazi.
Granted, twitch hated twin too, but I never read these kinds of complaints on SCG Legacy streams or the Eternal Weekend stream. Legacy not being entertaining to watch is all in your head, and you don't know what WotC wants from it's formats either.
At the same time, players play an important role in investing into the format. Exciting PTs are great for the format, but interested people might give it up as soon as they realize a) prices are expensive b) there's a risk to their $1000 deck going down the drain. People in this thread have given examples of friends unwilling to make investments into the format and continue to play Standard instead (which makes sense since people have touted Modern as a cheaper format due to lack of rotation). I know you've argued that people buying only one deck forever is a problem, but there should be a balance between Wizards making money and players seeing it as a worthwhile investment to get into. I think many users in this thread believe that we've gone too far in favoring Wizards instead of the players.
That said, I'm personally not sure where we are. Only Wizards has concrete numbers about how the format has grown/declined in the past month and a half.
And now we have less Premium events for the year and a product line-up that targets Eternal and Casual players rather than Modern Masters 3.
It will be interesting if Wizards issues an apology tonight or tomorrow for the meta then...
There is no need. Wotc is not going to put the money into testing for older formats. Since there will be no change, why apologize for anything? Just to make a few butt hurt players feel good until it happens again?
There comes a time when playing devil's advocate turns into playing blind, deaf and loudmouthed, and you're way past that point.
Do we really need another stale format where the same decks compete for years? I would rather have different then the same personally.
Last year was not stale.
Legacy hasn't been stales for the past 10 years. Some people just refuse to aknowledge that Standard isn't the only dynamic constructed format.
Hell even Commander has evolved more than African Fauna: The Tappening in these past 18 months.
After all the years of playing modern, I'm inclined to agree, and hope people will turn to legacy instead. While legacy has its own issues, almost none of them really involve actual game play and meta.
Legacy is not the solution you are looking for. Card prices would be astronomical.
In my experience that's relative. I built a Legacy deck on the money I got from 4 Eye of Ugin.
I believe Unresserved will be a thing, most likely pushed by players rather than WotC, and I wouldn't be surprised to see costs lower and more stable than Moderns just because of lacking a Pro-Tour and having more fine-tuning options even if it was picked up by SCG. Legacy went a very long time without ridiculous spikes and even the current RL spikes are more price-correction than the result of hoarding and collective stupidity.
The player base is much smaller than Modern's, so the current price isn't really comparable to the price if Legacy were "Modern". The RL cards would be absolutely outrageous with Modern-level support. If Modern prices can get to their current levels, RL prices, which do not benefit from remotely comparable print runs or availability, would be significantly worse.
That said, Unreserved would be awesome. That's my secret dream.
PT OGW was a disgusting train wreck, twitch hates Eldrazi, Eldrazi, Eldrazi, Eldrazi, Eldrazi.
Granted, twitch hated twin too, but I never read these kinds of complaints on SCG Legacy streams or the Eternal Weekend stream. Legacy not being entertaining to watch is all in your head, and you don't know what WotC wants from it's formats either.
Yet we have heard multiple times by multiple people in Wotc that they need to shake up Modern for the pro tours due to staleness. SO either the player base is wrong or Wotc is wrong. The thing is, its Wotc's game and they can do as they wish.
There comes a time when playing devil's advocate turns into playing blind, deaf and loudmouthed, and you're way past that point.
I am not deaf, dumb or blind.
Do you really think Wotc will all of a sudden start testing for older formats? Do you understand the money that would take to test all those interactions? Do you understand the time it would take? The man power?
Just because you think it should be done, doesnt mean Wotc feels the same or has the resources to pull it off in the time frames that it needs to be done.
If anyone is turning a blind eye to the business its you. You are demanding something that is financially impossible and wont fit the time frames.
Quote from idSurge »
Last year was not stale.
If that was true, why did Wotc feel they needed to 'shake up' the format? And Lapille saw it coming 9 months prior to the announcement.
It seems the player base, or part of it is not in touch with what Wotc is doing with the format or wants from the format.
After all the years of playing modern, I'm inclined to agree, and hope people will turn to legacy instead. While legacy has its own issues, almost none of them really involve actual game play and meta.
Legacy is not the solution you are looking for. Card prices would be astronomical.
In my experience that's relative. I built a Legacy deck on the money I got from 4 Eye of Ugin.
I believe Unresserved will be a thing, most likely pushed by players rather than WotC, and I wouldn't be surprised to see costs lower and more stable than Moderns just because of lacking a Pro-Tour and having more fine-tuning options even if it was picked up by SCG. Legacy went a very long time without ridiculous spikes and even the current RL spikes are more price-correction than the result of hoarding and collective stupidity.
The player base is much smaller than Modern's, so the current price isn't really comparable to the price if Legacy were "Modern". The RL cards would be absolutely outrageous with Modern-level support. If Modern prices can get to their current levels, RL prices, which do not benefit from remotely comparable print runs or availability, would be significantly worse.
That said, Unreserved would be awesome. That's my secret dream.
I was just pointing out how I bought a Legacy deck (LedLess Dredge) with the money from 4 Modern cards on price-crack from a "spikehoardscam", granted I didn't mention my hopes lie in Unresserved because this deck doesn't contain (could but that's beneath the point) RL cards but still competes.
Really, they can't grow Legacy any more and a lot of the problems we're having with Modern is it being "Legacy lite" and "Standard plus" for different sets of people with WotC refusing to disclose what it actually is for fear of losing either half of the crowd.
In my mind the solution is to just split it already. Make a format they can reprint everything for, is semi-competitive (1 GP in each continent, 1 FNM promo, no PT, just enough incentive to play it), is self-policing and they can add cards to trhough supplemental sets. And a format they can reprint everything for, has professional level events (PT season and MWCQs), where everything has to go through standard and that is controlled by a strict, dynamic banlist for "freshness".
I would still play both anyway, but would be much less bothered about Eldrazi Winters and them banning every deck I build if I had a fallback actually eternal and non-artificially rotating format they actually support and stores actually have an incentive to run because the people looking into it don't default to a dumb "no Underground Sea, I'll never win" mindset.
After all the years of playing modern, I'm inclined to agree, and hope people will turn to legacy instead. While legacy has its own issues, almost none of them really involve actual game play and meta.
Legacy is not the solution you are looking for. Card prices would be astronomical.
In my experience that's relative. I built a Legacy deck on the money I got from 4 Eye of Ugin.
I believe Unresserved will be a thing, most likely pushed by players rather than WotC, and I wouldn't be surprised to see costs lower and more stable than Moderns just because of lacking a Pro-Tour and having more fine-tuning options even if it was picked up by SCG. Legacy went a very long time without ridiculous spikes and even the current RL spikes are more price-correction than the result of hoarding and collective stupidity.
The player base is much smaller than Modern's, so the current price isn't really comparable to the price if Legacy were "Modern". The RL cards would be absolutely outrageous with Modern-level support. If Modern prices can get to their current levels, RL prices, which do not benefit from remotely comparable print runs or availability, would be significantly worse.
That said, Unreserved would be awesome. That's my secret dream.
I was just pointing out how I bought a Legacy deck (LedLess Dredge) with the money from 4 Modern cards on price-crack from a "spikehoardscam", granted I didn't mention my hopes lie in Unresserved because this deck doesn't contain (could but that's beneath the point) RL cards but still competes.
Really, they can't grow Legacy any more and a lot of the problems we're having with Modern is it being "Legacy lite" and "Standard plus" for different sets of people with WotC refusing to disclose what it actually is for fear of losing either half of the crowd.
In my mind the solution is to just split it already. Make a format they can reprint everything for, is semi-competitive (1 GP in each continent, 1 FNM promo, no PT, just enough incentive to play it), is self-policing and they can add cards to trhough supplemental sets. And a format they can reprint everything for, has professional level events (PT season and MWCQs), where everything has to go through standard and that is controlled by a strict, dynamic banlist for "freshness".
I would still play both anyway, but would be much less bothered about Eldrazi Winters and them banning every deck I build if I had a fallback actually eternal and non-artificially rotating format they actually support and stores actually have an incentive to run because the people looking into it don't default to a dumb "no Underground Sea, I'll never win" mindset.
What you just described is just bringing back extended....... Which honestly was the biggest mistake they ever made removing it..... We should have Modern=Eternal Extended=last 7-8 blocks. Standard=3 blocks and everything would be right in the world.
You are demanding something that is financially impossible and wont fit the time frames.
According to what proven data?
The only thing we have is their word, and it isn't worth much. MaRo, Forsythe and Stoddard are consecrated liars because that's the nature of non-disclosure.
It is possible they have all the tools necessary to test for modern and don't do it because Modern to them is a compromise, not a goal, and they want to spend as little time thinking about it as possible, or that Modern is their absolute favorite baby and they hate not being able to give it what it desserves.
It's also possible they don't give a ***** about it because despite their bull***** about Modern players not buying sealed product, we do buy a *****load of boosters for fun, pool testing and trade fodder.
Either way, you don't know *****, I don't know *****, nobody knows *****, but you keep acting like you're the only one who knows and understands how WotC works from tip to toe and it's getting stale.
Legacy is not the solution you are looking for. Card prices would be astronomical.
In my experience that's relative. I built a Legacy deck on the money I got from 4 Eye of Ugin.
I believe Unresserved will be a thing, most likely pushed by players rather than WotC, and I wouldn't be surprised to see costs lower and more stable than Moderns just because of lacking a Pro-Tour and having more fine-tuning options even if it was picked up by SCG. Legacy went a very long time without ridiculous spikes and even the current RL spikes are more price-correction than the result of hoarding and collective stupidity.
The player base is much smaller than Modern's, so the current price isn't really comparable to the price if Legacy were "Modern". The RL cards would be absolutely outrageous with Modern-level support. If Modern prices can get to their current levels, RL prices, which do not benefit from remotely comparable print runs or availability, would be significantly worse.
That said, Unreserved would be awesome. That's my secret dream.
I was just pointing out how I bought a Legacy deck (LedLess Dredge) with the money from 4 Modern cards on price-crack from a "spikehoardscam", granted I didn't mention my hopes lie in Unresserved because this deck doesn't contain (could but that's beneath the point) RL cards but still competes.
Really, they can't grow Legacy any more and a lot of the problems we're having with Modern is it being "Legacy lite" and "Standard plus" for different sets of people with WotC refusing to disclose what it actually is for fear of losing either half of the crowd.
In my mind the solution is to just split it already. Make a format they can reprint everything for, is semi-competitive (1 GP in each continent, 1 FNM promo, no PT, just enough incentive to play it), is self-policing and they can add cards to trhough supplemental sets. And a format they can reprint everything for, has professional level events (PT season and MWCQs), where everything has to go through standard and that is controlled by a strict, dynamic banlist for "freshness".
I would still play both anyway, but would be much less bothered about Eldrazi Winters and them banning every deck I build if I had a fallback actually eternal and non-artificially rotating format they actually support and stores actually have an incentive to run because the people looking into it don't default to a dumb "no Underground Sea, I'll never win" mindset.
What you just described is just bringing back extended....... Which honestly was the biggest mistake they ever made removing it..... We should have Modern=Eternal Extended=last 7-8 blocks. Standard=3 blocks and everything would be right in the world.
Make all cards printed in the post 8th edition frame and the post M15 frame legal in this new Modern and we have a deal.
Then against I see this being less likely to happen than just Modern staying course and Unresserved creeping into their schedule Commander style, because for some reason a lot of people hated Extended.
I actually liked it a lot and would have loved playing some of the decks that became avaliable to the format a couple years after it got discontinued (ISD-THS Rites would have been dumb fun). It really only appealed to the spikest Spikes and hardcore brewers while Moder actually has some casual appeal when it's not broken.
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I am going to say this one more time. Build a T2 deck that you can win local store credit with. Not win every event you play, but make it to the pay out. Save that store credit and invest in pieces of the next deck you feel you wish to play. Soon you will have multiple decks to choose from and pieces to build other decks. Its a time consuming venture but anyone with multiple decks had to do it, and you are going to have to also.
Once you wrap your head around the market and how it works, it is not as bad as you make it out to be.
Here is the thing, I don't play at store tournaments anywhere near often enough to make that plausible, I mostly play outside of tournaments and use the modern rule set to keep cards in balance. There is no store credit or anything. I'm not competing against people at a tournament I'm trying to play modern and enjoy it with friends. That's a far cry different from what you seem to understand and yes, I've wrapped my head around the market, it's messed up end of discussion. If the market is built around people winning at tournaments you're making it sound even worse.
At this point you seem to be the one not able to wrap ones head around the situation plaguing the market in modern and have either given up or are sitting on a treasure trove and afraid to see it lose value, trying to constantly discourage anyone from bringing up valid points. The entire illusion of modern is believing that there is a treasure trove at all.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If you are playing unsanctioned casual play with friends..why buy the expensive cards any way? Just proxie what you need. Card prices are meant to keep competitive Magic in check. In casual you can do as you wish. There is no governing body.
I dont see the market as messed up. Its worked very well for years.
The market works. We are not talking food and water here. We are not talking shelter.
We are talking about you wanting to establish a different price point for a game everyone else just pays to play.
Spirits
After all the years of playing modern, I'm inclined to agree, and hope people will turn to legacy instead. While legacy has its own issues, almost none of them really involve actual game play and meta.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
Legacy is not the solution you are looking for. Card prices would be astronomical.
Its also been mentioned IF Wotc turned toward Legacy as 'the' format.. more bans would be needed in the format. Remember Wotc is aiming for a tv friendly format that will draw players of all levels into it. Thats why we are seeing the bans in Modern to 'shake' up the format for the pro tours to make the viewing experience better.
Again what the player base wants from the/a format is very different from what Wotc needs from the/a format. Some can not wrap their heads around that.
Spirits
That said, I'm personally not sure where we are. Only Wizards has concrete numbers about how the format has grown/declined in the past month and a half.
Mostly because no matter what you eventually do play at sanctioned events. We do proxy quite a bit and fully recommend people do so to try out different deck ideas. The trouble comes from those times we want to take those decks to FNM, which does happen from time to time. Even casual players ultimately have to buy the cards, it's not just people who run for the competition exclusively and this is where the divide happens on the subject of modern and pricing. Ultimately they do need to find a way to make modern accessible because it really isn't. Especially if wizards starts doing key card bannings and causing entire decks to tank. What makes modern better than standard is the interaction between multiple sets of cards from different eras and the complex interactions one can get when they work with a wedge color structure instead of a two color or mono color structure. Those decks have very expensive mana bases and some have cards that are astronomical in cost. Tanking any of those decks is going to make existing players angry, casual players who are trying to just get into the format angry because the deck they might be saving up for or were working towards suddenly is invalidated, etc.
Case in point, when modern has problems, everyone feels it. It doesn't matter how often they attend FNM, or if they are mostly casual or mostly competitive.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. The secondary market is a thing, and it PROBABLY is a good thing in the long run for how it is with Modern. Restricted List is a distinct issue.
2. Unless you are telling me people have next to no disposable income, even if your group doesnt do what bocephus described and grinding out a deck upgrade, building a T1 (not every T1) deck is very achievable in 3 months. Just dont pick Jund, or Affinity.
3. Not everyone gets to have everything they want. Those who are willing to pay, can get those things. Thats just the reality of the Magic market/environment.
4. $30, even $50 a card is not 'astronomical' its just a competitive cost that must be paid. Now Goyf and Lily are gross, but they are such due to their position historically in the competitive scene, and thats just the way it is.
Spirits
311 players made Day 2 at GP Melbourne. GP Melbourne also just posted the Top 100 decks from Day 2. It's not a true Day 2 breakdown, nor is it a random sample of the Day 2. Those limitations aside, it's a total nightmare.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpmel16/top-100-deck-archetype-breakdown-2016-03-06
43 of the 100 players are on Eldrazi. This is not a "True" Day 2 metagame breakdown, but even if 0 of the other 211 players played the deck, Eldrazi would still be at 14% of the overall metagame. If the remaining 211 players had only HALF the Eldrazi representation as in the Top 100, that would still be 65 players on Eldrazi for a 21% Day 2 share. Of course, if the 43/100 held for the remaining 211 players, that would be the most lopsided Day 2 ever. Overall, I'm calling this a format diversity disaster. The other Day 2s are likely to be just as bad.
The problems mostly just a misunderstanding. When I'm talking about over priced cards I'm talking about things that have gone over 50 usd a piece. Plus most of the time you want more than one at a time, so there's a multiplier involved. The "best" scenario is keeping chase cards between 20-40 usd a piece that aren't foil or rare art prints, since that makes it trivial to get a playset of a needed card compared to having to grind 70 usd + scalding tarn or 100 usd liliana / goyf. Trivial being a relative term in this case.
Really, the best thing to do I've found is to just buy up what is interesting on standard pre-release for each set.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
There is no need. Wotc is not going to put the money into testing for older formats. Since there will be no change, why apologize for anything? Just to make a few butt hurt players feel good until it happens again?
Spirits
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Actually he said when they banned Twin this is not what they expected. To be fair we have not seen a Twinless format since the perfect storm of the ban announcement and the rise of the Eldrazi happened simultaneously. We have to see the format with a weakened Eldrazi deck to see what the Twin ban did.
Do we really need another stale format where the same decks compete for years? I would rather have different then the same personally.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Last year was not stale.
Spirits
This is why bootlegs exist.
In my experience that's relative. I built a Legacy deck on the money I got from 4 Eye of Ugin.
I believe Unresserved will be a thing, most likely pushed by players rather than WotC, and I wouldn't be surprised to see costs lower and more stable than Moderns just because of lacking a Pro-Tour and having more fine-tuning options even if it was picked up by SCG. Legacy went a very long time without ridiculous spikes and even the current RL spikes are more price-correction than the result of hoarding and collective stupidity.
PT OGW was a disgusting train wreck, twitch hates Eldrazi, Eldrazi, Eldrazi, Eldrazi, Eldrazi.
Granted, twitch hated twin too, but I never read these kinds of complaints on SCG Legacy streams or the Eternal Weekend stream. Legacy not being entertaining to watch is all in your head, and you don't know what WotC wants from it's formats either.
And now we have less Premium events for the year and a product line-up that targets Eternal and Casual players rather than Modern Masters 3.
There comes a time when playing devil's advocate turns into playing blind, deaf and loudmouthed, and you're way past that point.
Legacy hasn't been stales for the past 10 years. Some people just refuse to aknowledge that Standard isn't the only dynamic constructed format.
Hell even Commander has evolved more than African Fauna: The Tappening in these past 18 months.
The player base is much smaller than Modern's, so the current price isn't really comparable to the price if Legacy were "Modern". The RL cards would be absolutely outrageous with Modern-level support. If Modern prices can get to their current levels, RL prices, which do not benefit from remotely comparable print runs or availability, would be significantly worse.
That said, Unreserved would be awesome. That's my secret dream.
Yet we have heard multiple times by multiple people in Wotc that they need to shake up Modern for the pro tours due to staleness. SO either the player base is wrong or Wotc is wrong. The thing is, its Wotc's game and they can do as they wish.
I am not deaf, dumb or blind.
Do you really think Wotc will all of a sudden start testing for older formats? Do you understand the money that would take to test all those interactions? Do you understand the time it would take? The man power?
Just because you think it should be done, doesnt mean Wotc feels the same or has the resources to pull it off in the time frames that it needs to be done.
If anyone is turning a blind eye to the business its you. You are demanding something that is financially impossible and wont fit the time frames.
If that was true, why did Wotc feel they needed to 'shake up' the format? And Lapille saw it coming 9 months prior to the announcement.
It seems the player base, or part of it is not in touch with what Wotc is doing with the format or wants from the format.
I was just pointing out how I bought a Legacy deck (LedLess Dredge) with the money from 4 Modern cards on price-crack from a "spikehoardscam", granted I didn't mention my hopes lie in Unresserved because this deck doesn't contain (could but that's beneath the point) RL cards but still competes.
Really, they can't grow Legacy any more and a lot of the problems we're having with Modern is it being "Legacy lite" and "Standard plus" for different sets of people with WotC refusing to disclose what it actually is for fear of losing either half of the crowd.
In my mind the solution is to just split it already. Make a format they can reprint everything for, is semi-competitive (1 GP in each continent, 1 FNM promo, no PT, just enough incentive to play it), is self-policing and they can add cards to trhough supplemental sets. And a format they can reprint everything for, has professional level events (PT season and MWCQs), where everything has to go through standard and that is controlled by a strict, dynamic banlist for "freshness".
I would still play both anyway, but would be much less bothered about Eldrazi Winters and them banning every deck I build if I had a fallback actually eternal and non-artificially rotating format they actually support and stores actually have an incentive to run because the people looking into it don't default to a dumb "no Underground Sea, I'll never win" mindset.
What you just described is just bringing back extended....... Which honestly was the biggest mistake they ever made removing it..... We should have Modern=Eternal Extended=last 7-8 blocks. Standard=3 blocks and everything would be right in the world.
According to what proven data?
The only thing we have is their word, and it isn't worth much. MaRo, Forsythe and Stoddard are consecrated liars because that's the nature of non-disclosure.
It is possible they have all the tools necessary to test for modern and don't do it because Modern to them is a compromise, not a goal, and they want to spend as little time thinking about it as possible, or that Modern is their absolute favorite baby and they hate not being able to give it what it desserves.
It's also possible they don't give a ***** about it because despite their bull***** about Modern players not buying sealed product, we do buy a *****load of boosters for fun, pool testing and trade fodder.
Either way, you don't know *****, I don't know *****, nobody knows *****, but you keep acting like you're the only one who knows and understands how WotC works from tip to toe and it's getting stale.
Make all cards printed in the post 8th edition frame and the post M15 frame legal in this new Modern and we have a deal.
Then against I see this being less likely to happen than just Modern staying course and Unresserved creeping into their schedule Commander style, because for some reason a lot of people hated Extended.
I actually liked it a lot and would have loved playing some of the decks that became avaliable to the format a couple years after it got discontinued (ISD-THS Rites would have been dumb fun). It really only appealed to the spikest Spikes and hardcore brewers while Moder actually has some casual appeal when it's not broken.