If you don't know who I am, I don't blame you. I've been frequenting the forums less and less since Pro Tour M15, where I personally spoke to Aaron Forsythe. I thought we won that day, I thought the community was heard in a clear and concise manner. Since the latest banning announcement I feel on many cases most of us were steered wrong. So this is going to be exactly what it sounds like; a public cry. I hope this gets received as well as my previous message. I won't be talking numbers, yet I may give examples. I do hope WotC sees this message and understands that the Modern community is now lost, scared, and most importantly; becoming suppressed. The handling of the Modern format through social media and unclear articles provided by the mothership has led this sub-community astray without any proper vision for the future.
1. Communication
The communication is the most lackluster attribute that has gotten tremendously worse over the course of two years. This doesn't just end with Modern either. In general, I am tremendously disappointed that I see articles on the Mothership that contradict Twitter and other social media tools. I understand some social media needs to be used personally, but when questioned by an individual on Twitter, getting unclear messages in return only leaves the community grasping at straws to determine conclusions. You do have some benefits WotC, but the level of clarity you post in your messages and articles completely shadows your highlights.
Your quality you deliver in your product reflects this as well, Modern Masters 2015 features Splinter Twin, a card that has no utility within the limited environment you created. It is(was) a beloved card of the Modern format, and it's departure is still being felt. If this banning was planned based on time, in order to shake up a Pro Tour, why would you sell this product to us?
Why would you deceive hundreds of players investing into a deck? Why would you not give us any notification? Do you not understand the reason so many communities are so bitter? Whether that was unintentional or not, we got a bait-n-switch played on us.
Your lack of communication hurts us. It still hurts us. It shows in the quality and the consistency of your communication. It doesn't begin and end with an article or a tweet, communication is everflowing.
2. The "Modern" Management
As time has continued, you have taken a new approach to the Modern banned list compared to any other format. The consistent removal of cards from legal play has frustrated sub-communities time and time again. Yes, we understand that the format is growing, yet your level of investment has not changed. WotC, you treat this format like a red-headed stepchild, along with MTGO. These portions of your game have this constant yearning for growth and proper management, and we see next to no improvements on the weekly articles we read.
Do you not understand how frustrating it is for us, to read articles from our favorite players, about how X, Y, and Z needs improvement? When we are all fully aware ourselves each time we reflect our opinions on the professional community? The professional community, can summarize our thoughts, and feelings more effectively than your entire company. Although this borders on communication, what bothers me and hundreds of other players is how you choose to handle such issues; we have the image you simply ignore them.
Don't like MTGO? We won't do anything.
Don't like the Modern banned list? We won't do anything.
Don't like the availability of our products? We might do it for Commander.
Writers are desperate, players are desperate. This is why people are taking action against you in ways that have accelerated over the past. People are finding spoilers (somehow) and ruining your company. Why crack down on levels of privacy when you should know it's a problem about respect? The community can see it, how do you not?
3. The Modern Banned List, and the Pro Tour
This is the most controversial time of this entire community every year. You have banned cards form archetypes without any justice, you are "trimming" decks. You have started to treat our game like League of Legends. Stop nerfing decks with your bans, they are confusing to new players and professionals alike. Right now as I write this, approximately 500 people are viewing this forum, watching the debate amongst ourselves about the current "Eldrazi Disaster". This section will be the longest, so please read carefully.
There are quite a few "ideologies" we (the community) notice from WotC about the Modern format;
3a. You don't like the Modern Pro Tour
This confuses the community in many ways. Isn't this your second largest format? The one that is rapidly growing? Which supports many local stores, and can hold venue for people rotating out of Standard? From a business standpoint, I have no idea what goes on behind your scenes, but publicly declaring that this is your second largest format. I feel it to be sustainable to give it your second largest amount of support. One Pro Tour a year is not just a Pro Tour to us, it's a PPTQ Season, a PTQ Season, it's an FNM. Having Modern on the Pro Tour Stage, makes us want to be the next Modern Pro. You have huge high profile players that are experts in the Modern format, we want to become those people. You are taking the limelight away from them if you remove this Pro Tour. Why remove something potentially amazing from us and them? Why not help breed a new generation of professional players?
This new generation of professional players is how we relate, there is a Jon Finkel generation we all admire, but why can't we promote a Patrick Dickmann generation? There are so many aficionado, that you have already banned out of the format. Why are you continuing down this path? These are upcoming professional players with a key talent within the game, they are professional players that us newcomers can relate to.
Without a Modern Pro Tour, you wash all the support, and that untapped potential away. Not just from them, but from us.
3b. You feel banning and the Pro Tour are synergistic with each other for success
While this may or may not be true, the fact that you are in the camp of aggressively banning for a format in which you do no investment feels like a poor decision. It is also beginning to reflect among the dissent in the community. What business model, attempts to progressively degrade something that consistently grows? It seems like you have the intention to remove the thorns from a rose, but the way you are executing the situation feels like cutting down the rainforest. There have been 5 large announcements where you have banned cards and given nothing off the list back to us. It's very problematic for us as a sub-community to have top archetypes consistently banned, with no level of compensation. The printing of new powerful cards help, but they do not acknowledge or redeem the level of damage caused.
Also, you have an ideal where the Pro Tour "solves" a format. a radio podcast on Goldfish had a very strong and intelligent opinion on the matter,
I paraphrase "The community knew about the Eldrazi deck way back in December, and was a Mono Black Variant, if anything this Pro Tour held the progression of that deck into the top winning lists. Testing in secret compared to publicly held the process back."
The community has accelerated the Eldrazi deck in two weeks, into so many different varieties with no counter within the metagame, the disease is spreading. It seems insane that a company can make what is being commonly called an "artificial banning", yet there is a real problem happening right now, and you sit by without any action. The professional players did not solve the format, the community did. Stop blaming the Pro Tour for your woes.
Conclusion
We need you to step in Wizards of the Coast, we don't want to play this format anymore. We want to play a better format, a format where we can invest, perfect, and become identified with. Please make an announcement, of any kind, upgrade your levels and quality of communication. Once you have done that regulate the modern banned list to have minimal cards necessary, and take less aggressive approaches to our Pro Tours.
Honestly, I don't think Modern can be fixed. The cards Modern needs (new cards or reprints) are cards they don't want to introduce into Standard. Modern is pretty much unsustainable as a format until this changes.
A key part of Modern was that it wasn't supposed to be just "Standard's Greatest Hits" but have you looked at the tier 1 of the format? It's literally all previous fast/uninteractive Standard strategies. We have Eldrazi of course, but in the tier just below that is Affinity, Infect, Burn. It's not until you get into the T2 and T3 decks that this changes. Eldrazi and the Twin ban are problems here but they're not even the only problem, the format has been heading in this direction for two years now, ever since Pod was banned really (which broadened the meta, making it far harder to interact and sideboard). It's just that more people are finally starting to catch on.
I agree that the format has issues deeper than Wizards handling or lack thereof.
There are fundamentally unsound mechanics at play and unless a deck or two FORCES interaction, there are enough tools out there to accelerate the meta as we see now, even discounting the Eldrazi in the room.
They just have to start over again with a different non-rotational additive format. Modern really isn't a format as much as a graveyard of standard sets that have left rotation and new standard sets that still are. They named it a format mostly to please players who want the cards they have collected to be playable at official events past the prime of their life and as we can all see this has some deep rooted implications and problems.
What happens when new players come to play the game and like a set that is no longer in rotation, and hasn't been in rotation for years? They can go to the secondary market for exploded prices, but the financial requirement is often too much. They can look to constructed, but due to how the rarity system works mythics become literally legendary if they are needed for a popular deck and have price points as high as a whole box of randomized product.
So modern becomes the domain of the secondary market, enthusiasts, speculators / scalpers, and collectors. Combined this is a very small portion of the MTG community, yet they probably throw around more money than the masses of casual players playing draft in limited and standard.
The only way modern could ever work is if WoTC were to rotate in older sets and run them during standard season again, as in actually reprint and run Lorwyn, Kamigawa, etc. Since that isn't happening they need a different strategy.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
A great amount of people who play MTGO have no issue with it, and the people who do are a vocal minority. Just because you don't like MTGO doesn't mean it's not working.
Don't like the Modern banned list? We won't do anything.
Look around the forums and tell me how many people actually AGREE that the MBL is in a bad spot right now. It won't be 100% of the people on here.
Commander has the same exact problem that Modern has since we are competing with Legacy for a ton of expensive cards. Kaalia of the Vast, a commander who is in very high demand every since she was released, has only ever been reprinted once and was $50 for the longest time.
Seriously the only card that the Commander community can guarantee to get another copy of every release is Sol Ring.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
A great amount of people who play MTGO have no issue with it, and the people who do are a vocal minority. Just because you don't like MTGO doesn't mean it's not working.
There are a great many people who are highly respected in the MTG community (and also HoF) which refuse to play on MTGO and have written articles upon articles about the state of the program. I don't know where you get this high positive impression, but in the secondary article world, its highly condemned.
Look around the forums and tell me how many people actually AGREE that the MBL is in a bad spot right now. It won't be 100% of the people on here.
There are pro's and commoners alike among this forum who strongly disagree with you and this opinion. The reason this is so valid? This community has twice as many active users compared to the official forums. The official forums are a joke compared to MTGS.
I will trust a higher population, and their opinions, before a less common opinion, on the most popular forum.
A great amount of people who play MTGO have no issue with it, and the people who do are a vocal minority. Just because you don't like MTGO doesn't mean it's not working.
There are a great many people who are highly respected in the MTG community (and also HoF) which refuse to play on MTGO and have written articles upon articles about the state of the program. I don't know where you get this high positive impression, but in the secondary article world, its highly condemned.
Look around the forums and tell me how many people actually AGREE that the MBL is in a bad spot right now. It won't be 100% of the people on here.
There are pro's and commoners alike among this forum who strongly disagree with you and this opinion. The reason this is so valid? This community has twice as many active users compared to the official forums. The official forums are a joke compared to MTGS.
I will trust a higher population, and their opinions, before a less common opinion, on the most popular forum.
What does that have anything to do with anything? I said not everyone agrees on The Forums; These forums. What does the Official Forums have to do with that?
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
if you don't like mtgo i'm pretty sure the experience will be improved in the next year or so... they are throwing a lot of money into it this year... they are finally getting with the times...
if you don't like mtgo i'm pretty sure the experience will be improved in the next year or so... they are throwing a lot of money into it this year... they are finally getting with the times...
A great amount of people who play MTGO have no issue with it, and the people who do are a vocal minority. Just because you don't like MTGO doesn't mean it's not working.
There are a great many people who are highly respected in the MTG community (and also HoF) which refuse to play on MTGO and have written articles upon articles about the state of the program. I don't know where you get this high positive impression, but in the secondary article world, its highly condemned.
Look around the forums and tell me how many people actually AGREE that the MBL is in a bad spot right now. It won't be 100% of the people on here.
There are pro's and commoners alike among this forum who strongly disagree with you and this opinion. The reason this is so valid? This community has twice as many active users compared to the official forums. The official forums are a joke compared to MTGS.
I will trust a higher population, and their opinions, before a less common opinion, on the most popular forum.
You know darn well the ban list thread is of a pretty split opinion on 90% of the cards on the list. Pretty much the ONLY one there's a majority agreement on is ancestral visions. It's ridiculously disingenuous to even imply there's any sort of consensus on ban list opinion. Yes there are people that strongly disagree. There are also people on this board that strongly think hyper genesis is a safe card to come off. Your initial post is just bollocks in so many ways.
You know darn well the ban list thread is of a pretty split opinion on 90% of the cards on the list. Pretty much the ONLY one there's a majority agreement on is ancestral visions. It's ridiculously disingenuous to even imply there's any sort of consensus on ban list opinion. Yes there are people that strongly disagree. There are also people on this board that strongly think hyper genesis is a safe card to come off. Your initial post is just bollocks in so many ways.
Many people have opinions on bans, I have mine as well, but I don't believe it is disingenuous to see based on the polls we have every announcement, that there are hundreds of votes for cards or strategies to be available, even when given the option on the forums for "no changes"
I have my top picks for cards I would like unbanned, but the point in the original post remains the same; the management of the list is too aggressive. That is a real consensus on these forums. When over 70% of the population are asking for unbans of some variety.
Writers are desperate, players are desperate. This is why people are taking action against you in ways that have accelerated over the past. People are finding spoilers (somehow) and ruining your company. Why crack down on levels of privacy when you should know it's a problem about respect? The community can see it, how do you not?
These are five disconnected (and innacurate) statements presented as a single thought. I just felt I should point this is out because writing nonsense doesn't help being taken seriously, at least not by a corporation.
From a business standpoint, I have no idea what goes on behind your scenes, but publicly declaring that this is your second largest format. I feel it to be sustainable to give it your second largest amount of support.
How can you believe that Modern is dying and that Modern is extremely successful?
I dislike the way that WotC handles Modern too but it clearly works. A huge number of people enjoy Modern, the fact that you and I don't doesn't change that fact. Why should Wizards cater to a small number of ranty angry people when they could cater to huge numbers of people instead?
There are a great many people who are highly respected in the MTG community (and also HoF) which refuse to play on MTGO and have written articles upon articles about the state of the program. I don't know where you get this high positive impression, but in the secondary article world, its highly condemned.
So if a few "highly respected people" dislike something that means that most people dislike it? Step me through that line of reasoning please.
Shmanka is one of the only people who seems to have it together. He has been one of the most consistently correct and logical people on this website.
I find many people are consistent on the forum. They don't always say things we like, but they generally hold their position on a lot of things outside of those few instants where something close to the heart is at stake. I do agree that modern is in a pretty sour state, though this is nothing new at this point.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think we need a 'Modern Season' in Standard, or non-Standard based inclusion into Modern products for higher power level cards, particularly interactive spells and answers, to enter the Modern format which can't with regular Standard (and limited) power levels. It doesn't need to be a regular thing if it is done well and comprehensively enough across all different colors and various color pairs and trios. But the current Standard and limited balance are extremely against modern viable answers of certain types greatly needed appearing, especially ones diverse enough to appear outside of the sideboard. The things a Modern player has to be able to answer have a much greater diversity than any Standard player would, so they need more flexible answers. The things a Modern player has to answer also often come earlier in the game, and often need to be answered sooner, so they need answers to be lower cmc, and often instant, in situations where current Standard and limited design policies would lead those spells to be high cmc sorceries.
Creatures are entering the Modern format just fine, as the power level of creatures has risen compared to the past, and there is tons of design space there. Combos not so much, as combos have been severely scaled back in Standard as of late, often requiring stuff too high cmc or needing too many pieces with too little redudancy and selection to matter in Modern. Unfortunately combo isn't safe to design for, it's something that when designed for tends to get out of hand, and works best when you get lucky with some kind of accidental design side-effect that is good, but not good enough to need a ban. But answers are an area that _can_ be designed for, but can't enter the Modern card pool except for as a far too slow trickle of lesser versions rarely seen outside of sideboards over the course of many, many years, not solving some of Modern's biggest problems in the short term, when they are relatively easy problems to design cards to solve.
Wizards also needs to dedicate more resources to Modern in terms of people who are dedicated to ensuring Modern relevant cards get printed or reprinted, Modern events are run, Modern data is collected (and analyzed for purposes of things like bans and unbans and what new cards the format could use), and Modern players understand and appreciate and can somewhat predict WotC's policies regarding Modern, rather than constantly panicking over unpredicted bans, lack of reprints of cards seeing speculation price spikes (due to belief they won't be reprinted, at least not in large numbers), and flip flopping on tournaments happening or not (they should, but they shouldn't be seen as a bad thing, which they could if they become associated with unnecessary 'shake-up' bans).
EDH GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG UBRNicol Bolas and his SuperfriendsPawnsUBR
Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
All I have to say is I am happy the player base doesnt make the decisions for the game. As I have said before the player base wants out of the game, is not what Wotc wants from the game. I doubt the 2 parties will ever agree on it either.
Well, at least it's a familiar situation we are stuck with. The one where a company has minimal understanding of the wants of their player base and keeps trying to do things their way, satisfied with discontent and mindless complacency from the majority. The majority not being the people posting on this forum because there likely would be rioting around WoTC HQ right now if that were the case.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This is perfect, it seems like #FixModern is catching on, and people are DIRECTLY telling Aaron that they have cancelled their trip to Detroit. That's beyond amazing! We might make progress in time ladies and gentlemen!
All I have to say is I am happy the player base doesnt make the decisions for the game. As I have said before the player base wants out of the game, is not what Wotc wants from the game. I doubt the 2 parties will ever agree on it either.
Yes, but if the player base doesn't play the game then it dies.
People are tweeting at Forsythe letting them know they've cancelled their plans. People are letting him know they are very unhappy. IF it gets enough notice WOTC will change. They did it before when they realized design decisions were helping to drive away players, they'll do it again.
This is the one time where your "people want different things" argument that you love to bring up when being contrarian doesn't work Boce. The vast majority of players, casual to competitive, are unhappy with modern. That's big.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
How do you know that bocephus? Maybe we do want the same thing?
If we all were on the same page, there would be no need for this thread.
95% of this thread is (generally) on the same page, you're the only outlier, and that's proof something is messed up because it's very rare for 95% of people to agree on anything. Take my premise that I've argued several times, Modern's problem is that it's a format where answers are better than threats. Non rotating formats need the reverse to be true, but the current design philosophy for Standard means the format can never get the needed cards. Once I've gone into the whole spiel, which I've said much more often in the past few weeks, not a single person has disagreed aside from you.
We're not all pro players that can perfectly evaluate cards, but the vast majority of us can atleast see the problems in the format once a strong argument has been made.
Modern needs several changes. Focusing on Eldrazi does a huge disservice to the argument. The deck needs a ban or two but once it's gone the real problems are still there. Banning Twin didn't help matters because it was an interactive deck that could actually compete, but even if Eldrazi were gone and Twin was still around the format is still sick.
The format is effectively missing every single goal of the format right now. It's a format that really is just Standards greatest hits, everything competitive can skirt (or outright violate) the turn 4 rule, the format itself is very narrow because linear decks are the best strategies, and due to the gatekeeper problem they can't add sufficient new cards to the format as they originally intended. Every single premise the format is supposed to be built upon is broken.
In 2013 GP detroit was a constructed modern event that had 1461 players. At that point in time it was the most successful modern tournament ever and the most successful constructed North American constructed GP (aside from GPDC which was legacy) that year.
That means Detroit a city that most people expected would not have strong numbers beat out other more travel friendly cities like KC, Miami, Louisville, Albuquerque, and Dallas for a constructed event. This is almost solely on people's enjoyment of modern as Detroit was arguably in much worse condition then, than it is now.
The player base has grown significantly since then, roughly estimating at least 20% growth. GP Pittsburgh was the last big modern constructed event near that area and saw 2,679 players!
If GP detroit doesn't beat out the last event in 2013 or shows very small growth despite the player base being much bigger then the people will have spoken. Modern needs fixing fast.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage WWhite Trash
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If you don't know who I am, I don't blame you. I've been frequenting the forums less and less since Pro Tour M15, where I personally spoke to Aaron Forsythe. I thought we won that day, I thought the community was heard in a clear and concise manner. Since the latest banning announcement I feel on many cases most of us were steered wrong. So this is going to be exactly what it sounds like; a public cry. I hope this gets received as well as my previous message. I won't be talking numbers, yet I may give examples. I do hope WotC sees this message and understands that the Modern community is now lost, scared, and most importantly; becoming suppressed. The handling of the Modern format through social media and unclear articles provided by the mothership has led this sub-community astray without any proper vision for the future.
1. Communication
The communication is the most lackluster attribute that has gotten tremendously worse over the course of two years. This doesn't just end with Modern either. In general, I am tremendously disappointed that I see articles on the Mothership that contradict Twitter and other social media tools. I understand some social media needs to be used personally, but when questioned by an individual on Twitter, getting unclear messages in return only leaves the community grasping at straws to determine conclusions. You do have some benefits WotC, but the level of clarity you post in your messages and articles completely shadows your highlights.
Your quality you deliver in your product reflects this as well, Modern Masters 2015 features Splinter Twin, a card that has no utility within the limited environment you created. It is(was) a beloved card of the Modern format, and it's departure is still being felt. If this banning was planned based on time, in order to shake up a Pro Tour, why would you sell this product to us?
Why would you deceive hundreds of players investing into a deck? Why would you not give us any notification? Do you not understand the reason so many communities are so bitter? Whether that was unintentional or not, we got a bait-n-switch played on us.
Your lack of communication hurts us. It still hurts us. It shows in the quality and the consistency of your communication. It doesn't begin and end with an article or a tweet, communication is everflowing.
2. The "Modern" Management
As time has continued, you have taken a new approach to the Modern banned list compared to any other format. The consistent removal of cards from legal play has frustrated sub-communities time and time again. Yes, we understand that the format is growing, yet your level of investment has not changed. WotC, you treat this format like a red-headed stepchild, along with MTGO. These portions of your game have this constant yearning for growth and proper management, and we see next to no improvements on the weekly articles we read.
Do you not understand how frustrating it is for us, to read articles from our favorite players, about how X, Y, and Z needs improvement? When we are all fully aware ourselves each time we reflect our opinions on the professional community? The professional community, can summarize our thoughts, and feelings more effectively than your entire company. Although this borders on communication, what bothers me and hundreds of other players is how you choose to handle such issues; we have the image you simply ignore them.
Don't like MTGO? We won't do anything.
Don't like the Modern banned list? We won't do anything.
Don't like the availability of our products? We might do it for Commander.
Writers are desperate, players are desperate. This is why people are taking action against you in ways that have accelerated over the past. People are finding spoilers (somehow) and ruining your company. Why crack down on levels of privacy when you should know it's a problem about respect? The community can see it, how do you not?
3. The Modern Banned List, and the Pro Tour
This is the most controversial time of this entire community every year. You have banned cards form archetypes without any justice, you are "trimming" decks. You have started to treat our game like League of Legends. Stop nerfing decks with your bans, they are confusing to new players and professionals alike. Right now as I write this, approximately 500 people are viewing this forum, watching the debate amongst ourselves about the current "Eldrazi Disaster". This section will be the longest, so please read carefully.
There are quite a few "ideologies" we (the community) notice from WotC about the Modern format;
3a. You don't like the Modern Pro Tour
This confuses the community in many ways. Isn't this your second largest format? The one that is rapidly growing? Which supports many local stores, and can hold venue for people rotating out of Standard? From a business standpoint, I have no idea what goes on behind your scenes, but publicly declaring that this is your second largest format. I feel it to be sustainable to give it your second largest amount of support. One Pro Tour a year is not just a Pro Tour to us, it's a PPTQ Season, a PTQ Season, it's an FNM. Having Modern on the Pro Tour Stage, makes us want to be the next Modern Pro. You have huge high profile players that are experts in the Modern format, we want to become those people. You are taking the limelight away from them if you remove this Pro Tour. Why remove something potentially amazing from us and them? Why not help breed a new generation of professional players?
This new generation of professional players is how we relate, there is a Jon Finkel generation we all admire, but why can't we promote a Patrick Dickmann generation? There are so many aficionado, that you have already banned out of the format. Why are you continuing down this path? These are upcoming professional players with a key talent within the game, they are professional players that us newcomers can relate to.
Without a Modern Pro Tour, you wash all the support, and that untapped potential away. Not just from them, but from us.
3b. You feel banning and the Pro Tour are synergistic with each other for success
While this may or may not be true, the fact that you are in the camp of aggressively banning for a format in which you do no investment feels like a poor decision. It is also beginning to reflect among the dissent in the community. What business model, attempts to progressively degrade something that consistently grows? It seems like you have the intention to remove the thorns from a rose, but the way you are executing the situation feels like cutting down the rainforest. There have been 5 large announcements where you have banned cards and given nothing off the list back to us. It's very problematic for us as a sub-community to have top archetypes consistently banned, with no level of compensation. The printing of new powerful cards help, but they do not acknowledge or redeem the level of damage caused.
Also, you have an ideal where the Pro Tour "solves" a format. a radio podcast on Goldfish had a very strong and intelligent opinion on the matter,
I paraphrase "The community knew about the Eldrazi deck way back in December, and was a Mono Black Variant, if anything this Pro Tour held the progression of that deck into the top winning lists. Testing in secret compared to publicly held the process back."
The community has accelerated the Eldrazi deck in two weeks, into so many different varieties with no counter within the metagame, the disease is spreading. It seems insane that a company can make what is being commonly called an "artificial banning", yet there is a real problem happening right now, and you sit by without any action. The professional players did not solve the format, the community did. Stop blaming the Pro Tour for your woes.
Conclusion
We need you to step in Wizards of the Coast, we don't want to play this format anymore. We want to play a better format, a format where we can invest, perfect, and become identified with. Please make an announcement, of any kind, upgrade your levels and quality of communication. Once you have done that regulate the modern banned list to have minimal cards necessary, and take less aggressive approaches to our Pro Tours.
Until then....
#FixModern
A key part of Modern was that it wasn't supposed to be just "Standard's Greatest Hits" but have you looked at the tier 1 of the format? It's literally all previous fast/uninteractive Standard strategies. We have Eldrazi of course, but in the tier just below that is Affinity, Infect, Burn. It's not until you get into the T2 and T3 decks that this changes. Eldrazi and the Twin ban are problems here but they're not even the only problem, the format has been heading in this direction for two years now, ever since Pod was banned really (which broadened the meta, making it far harder to interact and sideboard). It's just that more people are finally starting to catch on.
There are fundamentally unsound mechanics at play and unless a deck or two FORCES interaction, there are enough tools out there to accelerate the meta as we see now, even discounting the Eldrazi in the room.
Spirits
What happens when new players come to play the game and like a set that is no longer in rotation, and hasn't been in rotation for years? They can go to the secondary market for exploded prices, but the financial requirement is often too much. They can look to constructed, but due to how the rarity system works mythics become literally legendary if they are needed for a popular deck and have price points as high as a whole box of randomized product.
So modern becomes the domain of the secondary market, enthusiasts, speculators / scalpers, and collectors. Combined this is a very small portion of the MTG community, yet they probably throw around more money than the masses of casual players playing draft in limited and standard.
The only way modern could ever work is if WoTC were to rotate in older sets and run them during standard season again, as in actually reprint and run Lorwyn, Kamigawa, etc. Since that isn't happening they need a different strategy.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
A great amount of people who play MTGO have no issue with it, and the people who do are a vocal minority. Just because you don't like MTGO doesn't mean it's not working.
Look around the forums and tell me how many people actually AGREE that the MBL is in a bad spot right now. It won't be 100% of the people on here.
Don't like the availability of our products? We might do it for Commander.
Commander has the same exact problem that Modern has since we are competing with Legacy for a ton of expensive cards. Kaalia of the Vast, a commander who is in very high demand every since she was released, has only ever been reprinted once and was $50 for the longest time.
Seriously the only card that the Commander community can guarantee to get another copy of every release is Sol Ring.
There are a great many people who are highly respected in the MTG community (and also HoF) which refuse to play on MTGO and have written articles upon articles about the state of the program. I don't know where you get this high positive impression, but in the secondary article world, its highly condemned.
There are pro's and commoners alike among this forum who strongly disagree with you and this opinion. The reason this is so valid? This community has twice as many active users compared to the official forums. The official forums are a joke compared to MTGS.
I will trust a higher population, and their opinions, before a less common opinion, on the most popular forum.
But do people still play it?
http://cardboard-crack.com/post/91110747325/magic-online
What does that have anything to do with anything? I said not everyone agrees on The Forums; These forums. What does the Official Forums have to do with that?
That's a positive thing to hear! ty.
You know darn well the ban list thread is of a pretty split opinion on 90% of the cards on the list. Pretty much the ONLY one there's a majority agreement on is ancestral visions. It's ridiculously disingenuous to even imply there's any sort of consensus on ban list opinion. Yes there are people that strongly disagree. There are also people on this board that strongly think hyper genesis is a safe card to come off. Your initial post is just bollocks in so many ways.
Many people have opinions on bans, I have mine as well, but I don't believe it is disingenuous to see based on the polls we have every announcement, that there are hundreds of votes for cards or strategies to be available, even when given the option on the forums for "no changes"
I have my top picks for cards I would like unbanned, but the point in the original post remains the same; the management of the list is too aggressive. That is a real consensus on these forums. When over 70% of the population are asking for unbans of some variety.
You can't get unintentionally bait and switched. Bait and switch is a scam. Are you accusing WotC of fraud?
Is there something else than bans can be used for?
These are five disconnected (and innacurate) statements presented as a single thought. I just felt I should point this is out because writing nonsense doesn't help being taken seriously, at least not by a corporation.
How can you believe that Modern is dying and that Modern is extremely successful?
I dislike the way that WotC handles Modern too but it clearly works. A huge number of people enjoy Modern, the fact that you and I don't doesn't change that fact. Why should Wizards cater to a small number of ranty angry people when they could cater to huge numbers of people instead?
So if a few "highly respected people" dislike something that means that most people dislike it? Step me through that line of reasoning please.
There are people who strongly disagree with the idea that less than 100% people hate the modern banned list? There's a word for them: crazy people.
Oh, god, you're one of those people who spends all day on a 50 part Twitter rant aren't you?
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
I find many people are consistent on the forum. They don't always say things we like, but they generally hold their position on a lot of things outside of those few instants where something close to the heart is at stake. I do agree that modern is in a pretty sour state, though this is nothing new at this point.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Creatures are entering the Modern format just fine, as the power level of creatures has risen compared to the past, and there is tons of design space there. Combos not so much, as combos have been severely scaled back in Standard as of late, often requiring stuff too high cmc or needing too many pieces with too little redudancy and selection to matter in Modern. Unfortunately combo isn't safe to design for, it's something that when designed for tends to get out of hand, and works best when you get lucky with some kind of accidental design side-effect that is good, but not good enough to need a ban. But answers are an area that _can_ be designed for, but can't enter the Modern card pool except for as a far too slow trickle of lesser versions rarely seen outside of sideboards over the course of many, many years, not solving some of Modern's biggest problems in the short term, when they are relatively easy problems to design cards to solve.
Wizards also needs to dedicate more resources to Modern in terms of people who are dedicated to ensuring Modern relevant cards get printed or reprinted, Modern events are run, Modern data is collected (and analyzed for purposes of things like bans and unbans and what new cards the format could use), and Modern players understand and appreciate and can somewhat predict WotC's policies regarding Modern, rather than constantly panicking over unpredicted bans, lack of reprints of cards seeing speculation price spikes (due to belief they won't be reprinted, at least not in large numbers), and flip flopping on tournaments happening or not (they should, but they shouldn't be seen as a bad thing, which they could if they become associated with unnecessary 'shake-up' bans).
https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/701899771707990016
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
Spirits
If we all were on the same page, there would be no need for this thread.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This is perfect, it seems like #FixModern is catching on, and people are DIRECTLY telling Aaron that they have cancelled their trip to Detroit. That's beyond amazing! We might make progress in time ladies and gentlemen!
Thank you for the kind words, but I'm just a messenger. Sometimes I stick my neck out too much but this is too important to ignore any longer.
Yes, but if the player base doesn't play the game then it dies.
People are tweeting at Forsythe letting them know they've cancelled their plans. People are letting him know they are very unhappy. IF it gets enough notice WOTC will change. They did it before when they realized design decisions were helping to drive away players, they'll do it again.
This is the one time where your "people want different things" argument that you love to bring up when being contrarian doesn't work Boce. The vast majority of players, casual to competitive, are unhappy with modern. That's big.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
95% of this thread is (generally) on the same page, you're the only outlier, and that's proof something is messed up because it's very rare for 95% of people to agree on anything. Take my premise that I've argued several times, Modern's problem is that it's a format where answers are better than threats. Non rotating formats need the reverse to be true, but the current design philosophy for Standard means the format can never get the needed cards. Once I've gone into the whole spiel, which I've said much more often in the past few weeks, not a single person has disagreed aside from you.
We're not all pro players that can perfectly evaluate cards, but the vast majority of us can atleast see the problems in the format once a strong argument has been made.
Modern needs several changes. Focusing on Eldrazi does a huge disservice to the argument. The deck needs a ban or two but once it's gone the real problems are still there. Banning Twin didn't help matters because it was an interactive deck that could actually compete, but even if Eldrazi were gone and Twin was still around the format is still sick.
The format is effectively missing every single goal of the format right now. It's a format that really is just Standards greatest hits, everything competitive can skirt (or outright violate) the turn 4 rule, the format itself is very narrow because linear decks are the best strategies, and due to the gatekeeper problem they can't add sufficient new cards to the format as they originally intended. Every single premise the format is supposed to be built upon is broken.
That means Detroit a city that most people expected would not have strong numbers beat out other more travel friendly cities like KC, Miami, Louisville, Albuquerque, and Dallas for a constructed event. This is almost solely on people's enjoyment of modern as Detroit was arguably in much worse condition then, than it is now.
The player base has grown significantly since then, roughly estimating at least 20% growth. GP Pittsburgh was the last big modern constructed event near that area and saw 2,679 players!
If GP detroit doesn't beat out the last event in 2013 or shows very small growth despite the player base being much bigger then the people will have spoken. Modern needs fixing fast.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash