Does anyone want to arrange a riot where we randomly attack Wizards employees?
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I think they are both offenders honestly. I love the eldrazi deck, I especially love the processor version that I had been working on for months before Oath kind of ruined it. That all being said, pre-oath I would have said take eye, if I had to choose one. It commonly came down to how fast could I get eye up and running and then fire of Ulamog. Post-oath the main game plan is turn 1 mimics followed by turn 2 TKS and then turn 3 smasher, which is 18 dmg by turn 3 (assuming no blocks). An eye ban still allows this, while a temple ban prevents this and slows TKS down to turn 3 and smasher to turn 4, which is much more reasonable.
However, I think it would be much better for the format is Wiz just in one move did away with all fast mana. Temple, eye, mox, and SSG. I am not sure if Eldrazi will remain, but they have powerful cards and hopefully will for the base of the colorless wedge. Maybe Modern colorless will appear. Who knows.
Exactly what deck would Jace be overpowered against? Affinity, Eldrazi, Infect, Burn? All of these decks usually win the game before he comes into play. Anyone at this point who taps out turn 4 to play jace so they can cast unsummon is already losing.
Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Ponder, Preordain and Deathrite Shaman are all too strong for Modern.
I don't think we can state all of this so categorically.
DRS is definitely too strong. Proven offender that even remained an offender even after BBE was removed.
There is evidence to suggest Ponder and Preordain are too strong, but there is also evidence to suggest those reasons are no longer true today, at least in one (if not both) cases. P&P were banned in a different Magic environment with fewer answers (e.g. Abrupt Decay did not exist) and different blue decks using the card (both Twin and Song were unbanned at the time and those decks used P&P to great effect). With those decks removed from contention, and with new cards added to the format, it's possible Ponder and/or Preordain are now safe. I would start with Preordain because it theoretically has tempo, control, and combo applications. Ponder is much more of a combo card.
Neither Mystic nor Jace have ever been in Modern, so there is actually no hard evidence to suggest they are broken. On the one hand, they were clearly broken in Standard and Extended. On the other hand, they are clearly not broken in Legacy. Depending on where we view Modern's power level relative to those formats, we can give theoretical arguments both for their safety and for their danger. The same goes for their safety in Modern terms alone. Are these cards really too powerful in a format with Affinity, Infect, Grishoalbrand, Tron, etc? That's at least space for an open question, not for a categorical rejection like most people pose.
I don't think unbans actually do anything to solve the Eldrazi problem, which is severe and beyond Modern regulation right now. But unbans do address some of the other longstanding Modern issues, and I imagine we'll see some soon.
Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Ponder, Preordain and Deathrite Shaman are all too strong for Modern.
I don't think we can state all of this so categorically.
DRS is definitely too strong. Proven offender that even remained an offender even after BBE was removed.
There is evidence to suggest Ponder and Preordain are too strong, but there is also evidence to suggest those reasons are no longer true today, at least in one (if not both) cases. P&P were banned in a different Magic environment with fewer answers (e.g. Abrupt Decay did not exist) and different blue decks using the card (both Twin and Song were unbanned at the time and those decks used P&P to great effect). With those decks removed from contention, and with new cards added to the format, it's possible Ponder and/or Preordain are now safe. I would start with Preordain because it theoretically has tempo, control, and combo applications. Ponder is much more of a combo card.
Neither Mystic nor Jace have ever been in Modern, so there is actually no hard evidence to suggest they are broken. On the one hand, they were clearly broken in Standard and Extended. On the other hand, they are clearly not broken in Legacy. Depending on where we view Modern's power level relative to those formats, we can give theoretical arguments both for their safety and for their danger. The same goes for their safety in Modern terms alone. Are these cards really too powerful in a format with Affinity, Infect, Grishoalbrand, Tron, etc? That's at least space for an open question, not for a categorical rejection like most people pose.
I don't think unbans actually do anything to solve the Eldrazi problem, which is severe and beyond Modern regulation right now. But unbans do address some of the other longstanding Modern issues, and I imagine we'll see some soon.
Modern feels weaker to me than extended was. Something like dredge or countertop would get an instant banhammer in modern. That being said combo and control decks are weak so looking at ponder or preordain make sense to me. Stoneforge is a busted card with batterskull but it is hard to know how busted it is without jitte to complete to triforce of broken equipment.
Card that would solve the Eldrazi problem in the new Innistrad block:
Artifact
3 Colorless CMC
All colorless land cannot tap.
(Insert victory flavor text here)
Insanely strong, no bans required and puts Eldrazi in check.
Enjoy having that 3cmc answer Thought-Knot Seered from your hand on Turn 2.
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EDH GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG UBRNicol Bolas and his SuperfriendsPawnsUBR
Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
Yes because every single game against eldrazi sees them resolving their god hand of T1 mimics, T2 TKS, T3 Reality smasher.
That being said, dream cards do not solve the issues people have right now, and with out actual proof that there is a viable answer in the next set I don't think that argument is going anywhere.
Also, you could make that card 2 mana and have etb draw a card and it MAY see play after that. There is also no such thing as colorless land.
Yes because every single game against eldrazi sees them resolving their god hand of T1 mimics, T2 TKS, T3 Reality smasher.
That being said, dream cards do not solve the issues people have right now, and with out actual proof that there is a viable answer in the next set I don't think that argument is going anywhere.
Also, you could make that card 2 mana and have etb draw a card and it MAY see play after that. There is also no such thing as colorless land.
Very true about the thought-knot, sadly.
I do like your additions to the card, and 2 CMC. But if WotC won't ban Temple or Eye, then I hope they come up with a card similar to that answer. Any great hate card(s) in Innistrad would be welcomed, if not better than just banning, imo.
Been lurking a while, and glad to see more people identifying Eye as the Prime offender.
1. A single copy can be used multiple times in a turn; potentially producing 2-6 mana turn one is ridiculous.
2. It limits design space. As long as it is legal, Wizards has to be extra careful about the Eldrazi they print in the future. The more they print, the more busted the card becomes. This is one of the reasons cited for SFM's ban.
3. Legendary is not a big enough draw back. As mentioned, the card stacks by itself, because you don't need to tap it...
4. It even has built in card advantage in the late game, helping you recover if your early rush somehow doesn't get there. Extra upside, anyone?
Banning the card would curtail the explosive starts the deck has, whilst still leaving Temple for less consistent agressive starts that actually give a fair chance to interact. Mainly because Temple has to be tapped, and having 4 less sol lands greatly reduces consistency. A single mimic or EO turn one isn't too hard to handle.
Basically it's the best candidate for a ban; card advantage on a land, absurdly fast mana, and limiting design space being things wizards has avoided in recent magic history. Plus the deck could likely still exist in some form without it.
Afterwards, if Mimic or Temple are still a problem, then consider further action.
Been lurking a while, and glad to see more people identifying Eye as the Prime offender.
1. A single copy can be used multiple times in a turn; potentially producing 2-6 mana turn one is ridiculous.
2. It limits design space. As long as it is legal, Wizards has to be extra careful about the Eldrazi they print in the future. The more they print, the more busted the card becomes. This is one of the reasons cited for SFM's ban.
3. Legendary is not a big enough draw back. As mentioned, the card stacks by itself, because you don't need to tap it...
4. It even has built in card advantage in the late game, helping you recover if your early rush somehow doesn't get there. Extra upside, anyone?
Banning the card would curtail the explosive starts the deck has, whilst still leaving Temple for less consistent agressive starts that actually give a fair chance to interact. Mainly because Temple has to be tapped, and having 4 less sol lands greatly reduces consistency. A single mimic or EO turn one isn't too hard to handle.
Basically it's the best candidate for a ban; card advantage on a land, absurdly fast mana, and limiting design space being things wizards has avoided in recent magic history. Plus the deck could likely still exist in some form without it.
Afterwards, if Mimic or Temple are still a problem, then consider further action.
I agree and the only debate we should be having is if its only Eye or both lands getting the boot.
Personally I prefer Eye alone, otherwise the eldrazi will be unplayable garbage.
Card that would solve the Eldrazi problem in the new Innistrad block:
Artifact
3 Colorless CMC
All colorless land cannot tap.
(Insert victory flavor text here)
Insanely strong, no bans required and puts Eldrazi in check.
Enjoy having that 3cmc answer Thought-Knot Seered from your hand on Turn 2.
Yeah, it's kind of like watching someone come up with a single card solution without ever realizing Choke has been around and merfolk are still gravy.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Do people really think that Intrepid hero is good? I like playing weird cards, but is intrepid hero the card we are looking for to stop the eldrazi menace? I was thinking of fun stuff like basilisk collar and cunning sparkmage/izzet staticaster to shut them down.
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"I do as I choose, and I answer to no one!"
—Dr. Doom
-My approach to building decks. Sometimes it works.
For a deck that is too "format warping" to remain it is interesting that a pro player could come up with some rather compelling brews that look like they could game the field and do well. I think maybe 4 voice of resurgence in the abzan deck is wrong over some number of Siege rhinos but those details aside it is good to see some players actually brew rather than rollover, die, and scream for bannings.
For a deck that is too "format warping" to remain it is interesting that a pro player could come up with some rather compelling brews that look like they could game the field and do well. I think maybe 4 voice of resurgence in the abzan deck is wrong over some number of Siege rhinos but those details aside it is good to see some players actually brew rather than rollover, die, and scream for bannings.
There is no way those decks are worth running over eldrazi. B/W tokens? Come on.
Eldrazi still has plenty of game against those decks and crushingly better matchups against the rest of the field.
For a deck that is too "format warping" to remain it is interesting that a pro player could come up with some rather compelling brews that look like they could game the field and do well. I think maybe 4 voice of resurgence in the abzan deck is wrong over some number of Siege rhinos but those details aside it is good to see some players actually brew rather than rollover, die, and scream for bannings.
Authors have been advertising anti-Eldrazi decks since the Pro Tour. Meanwhile, the metagame keeps getting worse by the week. SCG just released a bunch of IQ results from last weekend (2/20-2/21) and the field was packed with Eldrazi. We know the deck is beatable. We know there are decks with good matchups. This doesn't make the deck safe for the format. Modern is full of examples like that and Eldrazi has higher metagame shares than all of those decks.
You're saying that with the extensive testing you have done on these brand new decks? I'm sorry but if a large chunk of magic community can get up in arms around 2 weeks of results which tampered off near the end I don't think it is ok to flatly dismiss options people put forward as good match ups. The Abzan deck seems like a really solid anti eldrazi version of an already established archetype, why shouldn't we test it out? At the least you should try and separate if the deck is good or if Craig is just good before you say no.
I just don't understand how people can think the Eldrazi are just beatable and people are too lazy or uncreative to do so. Just look at these metagame stats from SCG Louisville until today! This doesn't even include the Pro Tour and its immediate aftermath: it's 2/14 through present with N=29 events and 227 decks.
Eye of Ugin is the biggest offender. Just getting turn 2 Vile Aggregate into turn 3 Eldrazi Skyspawner plus Thought-Knot Seer, or turn 2 Skyspawner into turn 3 Reality Smasher are all really ugly plays that don't involve neither Mimic or Temple. The biggest problem with Eye is that it not only allows you to cast your creatures a turn earlier than you should, but allows you to do so with more than a creature at a time. I wouldn't mind a Thought-Knot Seer being played turn 3 (after all, we are all fine with Karn being casted turn 3), but getting two of them perhaps is a bit too much.
Statistically... the chances of either of those happening without both temple and eye together is much much lower.
Let's assume nothing...
So you're computing the chances for UR Eldrazi of getting a mediocre start? Just to make maths easier, you only need to get Eye of Ugin among your first two land drops, not miss a land drop for the first three turns and play every creature you draw. As you can see, the hardest part is getting the Eye, which has a 40% chance of being in your initial hand, or a 60% if you take a mulligan. Then, you could get stuck with two Eyes and never find an useful second or third land drop, or your creatures be all Reality Smashers and Drowners of Hope, but in the end it doesn't matter if you get killed with Eldrazi Mimic and Endless One or with draft leftovers.
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Who is truer: you who are, or you who are to be?
Currently sleeved: WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Good Lord. Just played a match online with my Jeskai Delver list. Get so overwhelmed game 1, I just concede turn 3. I was down to a single Lightning Helix in hand against Thought Knott and Reality Smasher. On turn 3. Game two, my opponent mulligans down to... 2. TWO CARDS. I keep an opening 7 that includes 2 lands, counterspells, and Spreading Seas (though no threat, unfortunately). I Spread his turn 1 Temple, only to have him play an Eye on his turn 2. He proceeds to out-value me after Gut Shoting my Young Pyromancer and then playing more things than I can counter. He eventually comes back and kills me with a board state of Displacer, Seer, and Smasher, while he's sitting at 5 life and displacing me out of my draw step with Seer. Good grief, a ban of this absurd deck can't come soon enough.
Good Lord. Just played a match online with my Jeskai Delver list. Get so overwhelmed game 1, I just concede turn 3. I was down to a single Lightning Helix in hand against Thought Knott and Reality Smasher. On turn 3. Game two, my opponent mulligans down to... 2. TWO CARDS. I keep an opening 7 that includes 2 lands, counterspells, and Spreading Seas (though no threat, unfortunately). I Spread his turn 1 Temple, only to have him play an Eye on his turn 2. He proceeds to out-value me after Gut Shoting my Young Pyromancer and then playing more things than I can counter. He eventually comes back and kills me with a board state of Displacer, Seer, and Smasher, while he's sitting at 5 life and displacing me out of my draw step with Seer. Good grief, a ban of this absurd deck can't come soon enough.
Once the deck plays on curve it will be fine. Right now trying to fight eldrazi is kind of pointless since no one else has the ability to quickly grab mana and play ahead of curve, also. At least not outside of green. Just look at all the answers to 4 power or higher creatures and look at their CMC. Big Game Hunter requires madness to work, so you'd have to use merfolk looter or some other card to actually do anything. Painter's servant lasts longer, but is mostly an easily killable enchantment. Ensnaring bridge sort of works because it plays against the eldrazi game plan.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I just don't understand how people can think the Eldrazi are just beatable and people are too lazy or uncreative to do so. Just look at these metagame stats from SCG Louisville until today! This doesn't even include the Pro Tour and its immediate aftermath: it's 2/14 through present with N=29 events and 227 decks.
Anyone who thinks that's not indicative of a SERIOUS metagame problem is either being dishonest with themselves or with the community.
The question is why is eldrazi making up so much of the metagame? The deck is strong but I think it is because of other factors. The deck is cheaper than any other competative modern deck as of right now. Not to mention the people that bought in before all the prices spiked. Majority of the cards can be pulled from the most recent set in print. The other cards are also from sets less than 5 years old.
It is just a perfect storm of cheap deck to build, easy cards to get, the deck is strong, and a brand new deck. Innovate and beat it. It is doable.
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Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
However, I think it would be much better for the format is Wiz just in one move did away with all fast mana. Temple, eye, mox, and SSG. I am not sure if Eldrazi will remain, but they have powerful cards and hopefully will for the base of the colorless wedge. Maybe Modern colorless will appear. Who knows.
Really jace?
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
I don't think we can state all of this so categorically.
Artifact
3 Colorless CMC
All colorless land cannot tap.
(Insert victory flavor text here)
Insanely strong, no bans required and puts Eldrazi in check.
Modern feels weaker to me than extended was. Something like dredge or countertop would get an instant banhammer in modern. That being said combo and control decks are weak so looking at ponder or preordain make sense to me. Stoneforge is a busted card with batterskull but it is hard to know how busted it is without jitte to complete to triforce of broken equipment.
Enjoy having that 3cmc answer Thought-Knot Seered from your hand on Turn 2.
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
That being said, dream cards do not solve the issues people have right now, and with out actual proof that there is a viable answer in the next set I don't think that argument is going anywhere.
Also, you could make that card 2 mana and have etb draw a card and it MAY see play after that. There is also no such thing as colorless land.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
All lands are colourless? Ugin does not need to tap for mana
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678Very true about the thought-knot, sadly.
I do like your additions to the card, and 2 CMC. But if WotC won't ban Temple or Eye, then I hope they come up with a card similar to that answer. Any great hate card(s) in Innistrad would be welcomed, if not better than just banning, imo.
1. A single copy can be used multiple times in a turn; potentially producing 2-6 mana turn one is ridiculous.
2. It limits design space. As long as it is legal, Wizards has to be extra careful about the Eldrazi they print in the future. The more they print, the more busted the card becomes. This is one of the reasons cited for SFM's ban.
3. Legendary is not a big enough draw back. As mentioned, the card stacks by itself, because you don't need to tap it...
4. It even has built in card advantage in the late game, helping you recover if your early rush somehow doesn't get there. Extra upside, anyone?
Banning the card would curtail the explosive starts the deck has, whilst still leaving Temple for less consistent agressive starts that actually give a fair chance to interact. Mainly because Temple has to be tapped, and having 4 less sol lands greatly reduces consistency. A single mimic or EO turn one isn't too hard to handle.
Basically it's the best candidate for a ban; card advantage on a land, absurdly fast mana, and limiting design space being things wizards has avoided in recent magic history. Plus the deck could likely still exist in some form without it.
Afterwards, if Mimic or Temple are still a problem, then consider further action.
I agree and the only debate we should be having is if its only Eye or both lands getting the boot.
Personally I prefer Eye alone, otherwise the eldrazi will be unplayable garbage.
Yeah, it's kind of like watching someone come up with a single card solution without ever realizing Choke has been around and merfolk are still gravy.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Choke doesn't nothing vs merfolk due to both their speed and Aethervial.
That's really a bad example of how a "single card solution" is bad...
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
—Dr. Doom
-My approach to building decks. Sometimes it works.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13143&writer=Craig Wescoe&articledate=2-26-2016&utm_source=tcg-fb-post&utm_medium=tcg-fb-post&utm_content=magic&utm_campaign=tcg-fb-post-magic
For a deck that is too "format warping" to remain it is interesting that a pro player could come up with some rather compelling brews that look like they could game the field and do well. I think maybe 4 voice of resurgence in the abzan deck is wrong over some number of Siege rhinos but those details aside it is good to see some players actually brew rather than rollover, die, and scream for bannings.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
There is no way those decks are worth running over eldrazi. B/W tokens? Come on.
Eldrazi still has plenty of game against those decks and crushingly better matchups against the rest of the field.
Authors have been advertising anti-Eldrazi decks since the Pro Tour. Meanwhile, the metagame keeps getting worse by the week. SCG just released a bunch of IQ results from last weekend (2/20-2/21) and the field was packed with Eldrazi. We know the deck is beatable. We know there are decks with good matchups. This doesn't make the deck safe for the format. Modern is full of examples like that and Eldrazi has higher metagame shares than all of those decks.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
1. Eldrazi: (28.9%)
2. Affinity: (9.2%)
3. Abzan Company: (6.6%)
4. Burn: (4.4%)
5. RG Tron: (4.4%)
6. Merfolk: (4.4%)
7. Infect: (3.9%)
8. Jund: (2.6%)
9. Elves: (2.6%)
10. Mardu Midrange: (2.2%)
Whaaaaaaat??
Anyone who thinks that's not indicative of a SERIOUS metagame problem is either being dishonest with themselves or with the community.
So you're computing the chances for UR Eldrazi of getting a mediocre start? Just to make maths easier, you only need to get Eye of Ugin among your first two land drops, not miss a land drop for the first three turns and play every creature you draw. As you can see, the hardest part is getting the Eye, which has a 40% chance of being in your initial hand, or a 60% if you take a mulligan. Then, you could get stuck with two Eyes and never find an useful second or third land drop, or your creatures be all Reality Smashers and Drowners of Hope, but in the end it doesn't matter if you get killed with Eldrazi Mimic and Endless One or with draft leftovers.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Once the deck plays on curve it will be fine. Right now trying to fight eldrazi is kind of pointless since no one else has the ability to quickly grab mana and play ahead of curve, also. At least not outside of green. Just look at all the answers to 4 power or higher creatures and look at their CMC. Big Game Hunter requires madness to work, so you'd have to use merfolk looter or some other card to actually do anything. Painter's servant lasts longer, but is mostly an easily killable enchantment. Ensnaring bridge sort of works because it plays against the eldrazi game plan.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The question is why is eldrazi making up so much of the metagame? The deck is strong but I think it is because of other factors. The deck is cheaper than any other competative modern deck as of right now. Not to mention the people that bought in before all the prices spiked. Majority of the cards can be pulled from the most recent set in print. The other cards are also from sets less than 5 years old.
It is just a perfect storm of cheap deck to build, easy cards to get, the deck is strong, and a brand new deck. Innovate and beat it. It is doable.