TL;DR - I would rather try to bring splintertwin back to the format and see if that fixes diversity than ban out eldrazi just to see another deck rise and take their place.
To be honest, between, Living-Twin, Tarmo-Twin, Grixis-Twin, etc...I'd say someone would find their way to Eldrazi-Twin
Yeah putting a Splinter Twin on a Thought-Knot Seer would be pretty disgusting.
Not necessarily. You'd essentially be giving them a free draw.
So if their only card in hand was a dead draw... you'd actually be helping them out.
Twin on clique was substantially more powerful (because you didn't actually have to take anything or let them draw). Plus it was flying which was great vs tons of decks
Not necessarily. You'd essentially be giving them a free draw.
So if their only card in hand was a dead draw... you'd actually be helping them out.
Twin on clique was substantially more powerful (because you didn't actually have to take anything or let them draw). Plus it was flying which was great vs tons of decks
Before I sold out of BW Eldrazi I was using Whip of Erebos and it was doing a ton of work. Sure they get an extra card draw but against any deck that was holding cards back for one reason or another, you just keep yanking the best card out of their hand and then swinging for 4.
I'm sort of with Carthage on this one. I don't even care if they ban Eldrazi anymore. Am I the only one who thinks Affinity is just as oppressive to the format? A deck where the goal is to dump its hand of weenies on T1 and then kill in a couple turns doesn't make for interesting games of Magic. They think that is okay for the format, but Twin had to go? It makes zero sense. Infect is just as lame in my opinion.
Modern is a huge format in terms of card pool. So many crazy interactions and interesting things are possible! There is true beauty and complexity in games of MTG, if only games were not decided by T3. But Modern has become a format where you just mulligan a bunch hoping to get your nut, and its usually clear who will win by T2. Yeah, that's definitely an interesting card game...
Imagine if chess was decided by the third move every game. Who the hell would want to play that? Its even worse when the game includes as much random chance as Magic, because often a game of Modern is over before it even starts, but the players don't know it yet.
It is totally okay for a format to contain this sort of aggressive speed. IF you also allow it to have answers that can be applied at the same speed. But for some reason WOTC doesn't want to give us those.
For me to stick with Modern, or maybe even stick with MTG since I can't afford to play Legacy, some of the following needs to happen:
1) Print colorless hosers that don't suck so we can at least sideboard against the nonsense.
2) If you are going to ban to try to correct the format, then please just ban Mox Opal and Temple/Eye all at once. I don't care if Affinity players cry. T0 fast mana is stupid. Everyone knows Mox Sapphire is busted, why allow Mox Opal? I don't care you need 2 artifacts to turn it on, you will have that 99% of the time. If you want to make Modern "fair", then really make it fair.
3) Alternatively, if you want some decks to have access to T0 fast mana, then find a way to give it to way more than just 2 archetypes. There are lots of ways to solve this, but if people want to cast T2 fatties then let us at least cast T3 wraths.
4) Please print answers that don't suck. Seriously, better counterspells (why is UU counterspell unfair again?), better spot removal, better mass removal, I don't really care how they want to approach it. But outside of Path to Exile (which is a pretty well balanced spell) there really isn't anything in Modern that is mana efficient enough for these ridiculously efficient creatures and pump spells you insist on printing.
5) Can we please get some card draw /selection spells that aren't horrible? There are so many creatures that are basically a 2 for 1 starting at 2cc and up. Where are the equivalent draw spells? Sure Treasure Cruise was busted but I actually think Dig alone might be fine since its basically just double Anticipate and its only a +1 card draw spell.
Imagine if chess was decided by the third move every game. Who the hell would want to play that? Its even worse when the game includes as much random chance as Magic, because often a game of Modern is over before it even starts, but the players don't know it yet.
At the highest levels of chess, it is decided at that point, it just takes a few rounds for most people to realize it.
You know, Vintage is a format that is often determined by turn 2-3, even if it is not over and done at that point you very often can lock someone out so that you have effectively won the game already. But so much happens in those turn 2s that it is more interactive than most vintage games. And people who play that format are perfectly ok with it. It is not engineered that way for the most part, it is just that is the only way that format can be because of the card pool.
It is my opinion with the card pool as it is, and no controls in place like Force of will, trying to make Modern a turn 4 format is a mistake. It would be much better to embrace an interactive format with a lot of action in 3 turns than a boring, stale, and handicapped 4 turn format.
As someone who has played a lot of high level chess, I disagree. It is definitely not decided by 3 moves. Most chess opening sequences last for 7-10 moves and leave both black and white with decent chances. Only a severe mistake would decide the game by the third move.
As for Vintage, yes it is often determined very quickly. The difference is everyone has access to the speed, not just two or three aggressive creature decks. I actually like Vintage. But its a moot point anyway because very few people can afford to play that format. Modern should be the eternal format that is more accessible. Only right now it isn't fun.
I disagree that a format that lasts more than 3 turns would be boring and stale. I think the sheer variety of synergies in the Modern cardpool would lead to lots of really fun games. I think you would see lots more diversity and more interesting decision trees for players. What is the "lots of action in 3 turns" you are talking about? You want to get rid of BGx and UW and Tron and all those other archetypes? Because they certainly want the game to last beyond the first 3 turns. If that's the format you want, then you must be quite pleased with an Eldrazi/Affinity/Infect metagame.
...With Eldrazi, folks bought in for extremely cheap before OGW release because of the fun and fair Bx variants that were interactive and grindy.
To me, this will be the biggest loss in Modern after the April bans. I enjoy the Modern format, particular because I'm a hardcore brewer and salivate over "synergy". When I heard someone mention Delay and its synergy with cards like Blight Herder and Wasteland Strangler I couldn't buy Temples/Eyes fast enough. Then on top of that Ulamog's Nullifier and Dimensional Infiltrator; I sold pieces of my Tezzeret deck and even traded a Tropical Island for the missing pieces of UB Eldrazi. Throw in Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver and you are suddenly using cards rarely seen by Modern players.
Anyway, its just alittle upsetting that the format still hasn't defined/lacks the tools to regulate itself.
This goes back to a design choice. Counterspell, Lightning Bolt, Swords to Ploughshares, Doom Blade/Terror, and Llanowar Elves are a part of the classical engines for starting a deck. With Bolt in effective has made red very effective splash. White has access to the most powerful removal in PTE as the successor to STP. Black lacks a defining creature destruction spell along the lines of white but can still work and quite honestly has been replaced with Thoughtseize as a format police dog. Green's got Tarmogoyf.
Blue lacks its trademark control spell with Counterspell. While it would not solve the Eldrazi Menace, it is one of the policing effects that is missing from the game. Control has been getting weaker in recent years with Counterspell nerfs, wrath nerfs, and so on.
I too enjoyed the possibilities with Eldrazi Processor control, but this ban will cripple that deck at least in current form.
I feel they need to reevaluate Standard and the Escher Stair Case at a start and begin looking at developmental design that allows for specific cards to enter Modern and afford a higher spell power level. We're in an era of conservative spells and liberal creatures, and a focus on commons for limited. Therefore as limited is a format of concern for primary concern, we receive fewer stronger spell support.
It's too many flawed designs by trying to make Portal level spells and Modern level creatures. A house that cannot stand. I mean, why do we get Little Jace Wallet Slayer, but Inquisition of Kozilek and Counterspell are too good? The answer is flawed design, and a lack of Modern understanding.
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I think wizards should try reversing the power creep on creatures by raising it on spells. I think while the boost to cteatures over spells made sense in the ravinca:city of guild's era that perhaps a cyclical attitude towards this idea is needed. Have a few bkocks centered on powerful non-creature spells then go back to powerful creature spells. I mean we are playing a game abiut being a super powerful wizard not not nat geo's beast brawls.
I'm sort of with Carthage on this one. I don't even care if they ban Eldrazi anymore. Am I the only one who thinks Affinity is just as oppressive to the format? A deck where the goal is to dump its hand of weenies on T1 and then kill in a couple turns doesn't make for interesting games of Magic. They think that is okay for the format, but Twin had to go? It makes zero sense. Infect is just as lame in my opinion.
Modern is a huge format in terms of card pool. So many crazy interactions and interesting things are possible! There is true beauty and complexity in games of MTG, if only games were not decided by T3. But Modern has become a format where you just mulligan a bunch hoping to get your nut, and its usually clear who will win by T2. Yeah, that's definitely an interesting card game...
Imagine if chess was decided by the third move every game. Who the hell would want to play that? Its even worse when the game includes as much random chance as Magic, because often a game of Modern is over before it even starts, but the players don't know it yet.
It is totally okay for a format to contain this sort of aggressive speed. IF you also allow it to have answers that can be applied at the same speed. But for some reason WOTC doesn't want to give us those.
For me to stick with Modern, or maybe even stick with MTG since I can't afford to play Legacy, some of the following needs to happen:
1) Print colorless hosers that don't suck so we can at least sideboard against the nonsense.
2) If you are going to ban to try to correct the format, then please just ban Mox Opal and Temple/Eye all at once. I don't care if Affinity players cry. T0 fast mana is stupid. Everyone knows Mox Sapphire is busted, why allow Mox Opal? I don't care you need 2 artifacts to turn it on, you will have that 99% of the time. If you want to make Modern "fair", then really make it fair.
3) Alternatively, if you want some decks to have access to T0 fast mana, then find a way to give it to way more than just 2 archetypes. There are lots of ways to solve this, but if people want to cast T2 fatties then let us at least cast T3 wraths.
4) Please print answers that don't suck. Seriously, better counterspells (why is UU counterspell unfair again?), better spot removal, better mass removal, I don't really care how they want to approach it. But outside of Path to Exile (which is a pretty well balanced spell) there really isn't anything in Modern that is mana efficient enough for these ridiculously efficient creatures and pump spells you insist on printing.
5) Can we please get some card draw /selection spells that aren't horrible? There are so many creatures that are basically a 2 for 1 starting at 2cc and up. Where are the equivalent draw spells? Sure Treasure Cruise was busted but I actually think Dig alone might be fine since its basically just double Anticipate and its only a +1 card draw spell.
This is someone who also gets it.
Ban free mana and will be a lot better, been saying this from the beginning.
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Twin had better numbers than Affinity. This is how Wizards can "justify" and I use that term in the loosest way possible, banning Twin. Plus, everyone says that Affinity is prone to hate (when in fact they're really talking about Bolt, Snap/Bolt, which left the format after Twin was banned). Meanwhile, Affinity will rack up the wins. Affinity is one of the decks I hate playing the most. It just doesn't suit my style. Still, if I knew what I know now, I probably would have played Affinity (or Bloom Titan) ever since the beginning of Modern until now. Hindsight is 20/20.
I agree with you guys though. I think once Eldrazi or gone or diminished, Affinity will be the next in line of Birthing Pod, Splinter Twin, and at the ban announcement before next year's Pro Tour, Mox Opal will be the next to go. Seeing Affinity do well within metas that are plain horrible (like now or Cruise) shows some real strength and probably brokenness, despite "Affinity being the easiest to hate," which I don't personally believe. (Most of the time, you're relying on a 4 mana Sorcery to a deck that can kill before that or even rebuild occasionally after that.)
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
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Imagine if chess was decided by the third move every game. Who the hell would want to play that? Its even worse when the game includes as much random chance as Magic, because often a game of Modern is over before it even starts, but the players don't know it yet.
At the highest levels of chess, it is decided at that point, it just takes a few rounds for most people to realize it.
This is laughably incorrect.
That said, a lot more "moves" can be made in a turn of Magic: the Gathering than a turn of Chess, so I don't think the comparison makes much sense to begin with.
Yes Mox Opal will go I am sure of that.
Been playing Affinity for a pretty long time and every time I can get my Mox up and going in turn one or two I am just a turn ahead of my opponent. It gets even worse when you have multiple Moxes in hand.
That is the whole reason I am thinking of selling my Affinity deck now and just have fun with my Zoo, both are creature decks.
I am looking at building Burn as a tier 1 deck replacement.
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Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
Due to some existential dread in this thread that even with Eldazi gone Modern will be relegated to non-interactive aggro decks and that interactive decks are dead... it's just not true.
Jeskai Control does very well against stuff like Burn and Affinity, it has a ton of spot removal for small threats, can exhaust your hand while stabilizing and has endless hosers post-board. Abzan which has a lot of hand-hate and graveyard interactions does very well against Burn and post-board against Affinity. Grixis Delve is a very different style of Control deck as well which uses minimal land and endless card cycling to fuel bombs. It's still full of removal and permissions. The various Hatebear decks like D&T are interactive as well. The format still has very viable combos like Instant Reanimator (Grishoalbrand), Pyro-Storm still works though it has been forgotten about, Ad Nauseum, Scapeshift, Living End etc.
There is plenty of potential in the post-Twin meta for interactive decks to thrive, decks that have a naturally good match up against Infect, Burn and Affinity who have been a gauntlet in Modern for a very long time. Twin wasn't the sole reason those decks were kept in check and Eldrazi isn't the sole reason now. The meta needs time to adjust itself, for innovative players to place in big events, for new trends to form as a response to the aggro shift. I believe it will happen, but not while a deck as oppressive as Eldrazi is running rampant.
Imagine if chess was decided by the third move every game. Who the hell would want to play that? Its even worse when the game includes as much random chance as Magic, because often a game of Modern is over before it even starts, but the players don't know it yet.
At the highest levels of chess, it is decided at that point, it just takes a few rounds for most people to realize it.
You know, Vintage is a format that is often determined by turn 2-3, even if it is not over and done at that point you very often can lock someone out so that you have effectively won the game already. But so much happens in those turn 2s that it is more interactive than most vintage games. And people who play that format are perfectly ok with it. It is not engineered that way for the most part, it is just that is the only way that format can be because of the card pool.
It is my opinion with the card pool as it is, and no controls in place like Force of will, trying to make Modern a turn 4 format is a mistake. It would be much better to embrace an interactive format with a lot of action in 3 turns than a boring, stale, and handicapped 4 turn format.
You are really wrong about chess, and it just takes a little bit of research and watching games to know that. Chess is a game where most good starts and good counter-starts are 'known'. If you are a master and your opponent is one as well, the first moves will just be repetitions or slight variations from the usual starts/counterstarts, until the game actually 'begins'.
Anyway, also not that right about Vintage. It basically depends A LOT on the matchup. Some decks in Vintage are "control", so you can't just go all-in in then unless you have the absolute nuts, some decks are stax, etc. etc. Anyway, there are games that end on turn 1, yes, there are also games that take much longer than that. What you can say about Vintage is that it has high VARIANCE in regards to time, meaning games can either end really quickly or take a long long time with topdeck wars (or anything in between).
I do agree that random artificial constraints are stupid, a.k.a. banning decks because they can consistently win before turn 4 (but after that it is fine). That makes no sense. I do agree with bannings that regulate the health of a game, in the sense that you ban a card to take care of a real problematic deck (as they will likely do with eldrazi). Bloom never was a problem in my opinion, it could win on turn 2... so what? It wasn't even big on the metagame. It shouldn't have been banned. From a deckbuilding standpoint, I agree with the banning of Splinter Twin. I think it was just too unimaginative of a combo that was making its place in every deck and deck combination in a disgusting way. As a problem for the metagame I think it didn't deserve a banning.
Anyway, eldrazi will be banned, then modern will face its real challenge: linear non-interactive decks. Let's see what happens.
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Yes Mox Opal will go I am sure of that.
Been playing Affinity for a pretty long time and every time I can get my Mox up and going in turn one or two I am just a turn ahead of my opponent. It gets even worse when you have multiple Moxes in hand.
That is the whole reason I am thinking of selling my Affinity deck now and just have fun with my Zoo, both are creature decks.
I am looking at building Burn as a tier 1 deck replacement.
I would keep it until a year from now or at least until people start harping on its success more. There's no reason to give up a deck that has one of the best chances at winning a tournament after Eye of Ugin is banned, especially if you play the deck well. I would personally milk as much success out of the deck as you can; sort of like how I'm doing with Eldrazi. Sure, I am fully aware that it isn't long for this world, but I'm going to milk as many wins as I can.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
This may have been asked already but wading though 47 pages of posts is beyond me. Most people, whether they care to admit it or not, seem to agree that some sort of Eldrazi ban is incoming. If/when it happens which version, if any, will remain the most viable? B/W? Bx? Something else?
This may have been asked already but wading though 47 pages of posts is beyond me. Most people, whether they care to admit it or not, seem to agree that some sort of Eldrazi ban is incoming. If/when it happens which version, if any, will remain the most viable? B/W? Bx? Something else?
If they take both lands no version will be viable. Some people might splash C for TKS or even smasher, but as a tribe the days would be over. Modern Resurgent, you might say.
If they take Eye, the tribe could be played but in a lot more midrange style since the Eldrazi pilot must cater for the grindier outcome where they don't draw temples. Temples can tap to help cast spells, so BW midrange with lingering souls may prevail, or perhaps the old processor style. I would be trying out GW with Descendant's path and ancient stirrings with white's pathe ot exiles and excellent sideboard options.
If they take temple but leave Eye, expect eldrazi to swing towards 2+U/R/W builds. Vile Aggregates, Skyspawners and Displacers cast for 1 mana will be the order of the day, and aggro style will continue to persist with Endless Ones and Mimics still flooding the board T1 if there is an Eye in the starting hand. The curve will drop, but if Temples are all that's going, Reality Smashers may go but the 3 CMC creatures will then take over.
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Yes Mox Opal will go I am sure of that.
Been playing Affinity for a pretty long time and every time I can get my Mox up and going in turn one or two I am just a turn ahead of my opponent. It gets even worse when you have multiple Moxes in hand.
That is the whole reason I am thinking of selling my Affinity deck now and just have fun with my Zoo, both are creature decks.
I am looking at building Burn as a tier 1 deck replacement.
I would keep it until a year from now or at least until people start harping on its success more. There's no reason to give up a deck that has one of the best chances at winning a tournament after Eye of Ugin is banned, especially if you play the deck well. I would personally milk as much success out of the deck as you can; sort of like how I'm doing with Eldrazi. Sure, I am fully aware that it isn't long for this world, but I'm going to milk as many wins as I can.
Good point your making mate thanks. I am not playing in big tournaments anymore just an FNM once in a while so that is where my thinking also comes from.
Will think about it.
I feel that the lands are fine, it's the mimic that's the real problem.
T2 TKS are also a problem, as are T3 5/5 hasty tramplers with discard-1-or-your-removal-is-countered.
To say just banning Mimic will relieve the situation shows that you haven't been piloting the deck or playing against it often enough. Mimics are the "loudest" play and easy to focus on, but they are hardly the biggest issue. Its the fatties they mimic the immediate turns after that really break them, and its the lands that enable this fracas.
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Eye of Ugin is the biggest offender. Just getting turn 2 Vile Aggregate into turn 3 Eldrazi Skyspawner plus Thought-Knot Seer, or turn 2 Skyspawner into turn 3 Reality Smasher are all really ugly plays that don't involve neither Mimic or Temple. The biggest problem with Eye is that it not only allows you to cast your creatures a turn earlier than you should, but allows you to do so with more than a creature at a time. I wouldn't mind a Thought-Knot Seer being played turn 3 (after all, we are all fine with Karn being casted turn 3), but getting two of them perhaps is a bit too much.
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Eye of Ugin is the biggest offender. Just getting turn 2 Vile Aggregate into turn 3 Eldrazi Skyspawner plus Thought-Knot Seer, or turn 2 Skyspawner into turn 3 Reality Smasher are all really ugly plays that don't involve neither Mimic or Temple. The biggest problem with Eye is that it not only allows you to cast your creatures a turn earlier than you should, but allows you to do so with more than a creature at a time. I wouldn't mind a Thought-Knot Seer being played turn 3 (after all, we are all fine with Karn being casted turn 3), but getting two of them perhaps is a bit too much.
Nah.. temple. As eye does absolutely nothing in multiples. My friend last night dealt with a pair of mimics and a phyrexian dreadnaught. She didn't enjoy the experience. As for Modern, it's more the temple and mimic... temple still allows turn 2 tks and reality smasher, where 2 eyes do nothing at all.
Eye of Ugin is the biggest offender. Just getting turn 2 Vile Aggregate into turn 3 Eldrazi Skyspawner plus Thought-Knot Seer, or turn 2 Skyspawner into turn 3 Reality Smasher are all really ugly plays that don't involve neither Mimic or Temple. The biggest problem with Eye is that it not only allows you to cast your creatures a turn earlier than you should, but allows you to do so with more than a creature at a time. I wouldn't mind a Thought-Knot Seer being played turn 3 (after all, we are all fine with Karn being casted turn 3), but getting two of them perhaps is a bit too much.
Nah.. temple. As eye does absolutely nothing in multiples. My friend last night dealt with a pair of mimics and a phyrexian dreadnaught. She didn't enjoy the experience. As for Modern, it's more the temple and mimic... temple still allows turn 2 tks and reality smasher, where 2 eyes do nothing at all.
The problem here is although you can't stack Eye, the Eye itself already stacks. With 1 Eye and 1 Temple, you can cast 2 Matter Reshapers. With 1 Eye, 1 Temple and 1 Swamp, you can cast TKS and then process the card immediately with Wasteland Strangler. In both these common scenarios the Eye has basically produced "4" mana... in one turn. It is such a powerful mana "producer" that its fielded as a 4-of despite being legendary.
And we haven't talked about the fact that it tutors things in the lategame (if you get there). Ensnaring Bridge locks are overcome by tutoring for Ulamog or Endbringer. An endless chain of Smashers even if you get to topdeck mode.
The only real advantage Temple has over Eye is that it can pay for Dismember or other generic costs of nondrazi spells.
Your point that 2 Eyes does nothing at all is incorrect; the SECOND Eye drawn will do nothing at all, but the first one will have done enough.
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Eye of Ugin is the biggest offender. Just getting turn 2 Vile Aggregate into turn 3 Eldrazi Skyspawner plus Thought-Knot Seer, or turn 2 Skyspawner into turn 3 Reality Smasher are all really ugly plays that don't involve neither Mimic or Temple. The biggest problem with Eye is that it not only allows you to cast your creatures a turn earlier than you should, but allows you to do so with more than a creature at a time. I wouldn't mind a Thought-Knot Seer being played turn 3 (after all, we are all fine with Karn being casted turn 3), but getting two of them perhaps is a bit too much.
Statistically... the chances of either of those happening without both temple and eye together is much much lower.
Let's assume nothing get's banned. In order for scenario 1 to occur, you must draw both a vile aggregate, skyspawner, and seer by turn 3.
The chance of drawing both the cards together is approximately 11%.
In order for you to be able to cast them, you need to draw the following combination of spells:
1 temple, 1 eye, 1 R/U colorless source 16%
1 Eye, 1 R/U colorless source, 1 urborg 16%
32% chance total of drawing the land-base. That means, currently, there is a combine chance of about 4% for that exact scenario to occur.
What happens when you take out temple?
In order for you to be able to cast them, you need to draw the following combination of spells:
1 Eye, 1 R/U colorless source, 1 urborg 16%
That is a 2% chance of occurring. By taking out temple: you reduce the probability by nearly half.
That's the main reason why I suspect we will see a temple ban and not an eye ban. Taking out eye actually reduces the probability of having fast mana more so than just eye.
Not necessarily. You'd essentially be giving them a free draw.
So if their only card in hand was a dead draw... you'd actually be helping them out.
Twin on clique was substantially more powerful (because you didn't actually have to take anything or let them draw). Plus it was flying which was great vs tons of decks
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Before I sold out of BW Eldrazi I was using Whip of Erebos and it was doing a ton of work. Sure they get an extra card draw but against any deck that was holding cards back for one reason or another, you just keep yanking the best card out of their hand and then swinging for 4.
Modern is a huge format in terms of card pool. So many crazy interactions and interesting things are possible! There is true beauty and complexity in games of MTG, if only games were not decided by T3. But Modern has become a format where you just mulligan a bunch hoping to get your nut, and its usually clear who will win by T2. Yeah, that's definitely an interesting card game...
Imagine if chess was decided by the third move every game. Who the hell would want to play that? Its even worse when the game includes as much random chance as Magic, because often a game of Modern is over before it even starts, but the players don't know it yet.
It is totally okay for a format to contain this sort of aggressive speed. IF you also allow it to have answers that can be applied at the same speed. But for some reason WOTC doesn't want to give us those.
For me to stick with Modern, or maybe even stick with MTG since I can't afford to play Legacy, some of the following needs to happen:
1) Print colorless hosers that don't suck so we can at least sideboard against the nonsense.
2) If you are going to ban to try to correct the format, then please just ban Mox Opal and Temple/Eye all at once. I don't care if Affinity players cry. T0 fast mana is stupid. Everyone knows Mox Sapphire is busted, why allow Mox Opal? I don't care you need 2 artifacts to turn it on, you will have that 99% of the time. If you want to make Modern "fair", then really make it fair.
3) Alternatively, if you want some decks to have access to T0 fast mana, then find a way to give it to way more than just 2 archetypes. There are lots of ways to solve this, but if people want to cast T2 fatties then let us at least cast T3 wraths.
4) Please print answers that don't suck. Seriously, better counterspells (why is UU counterspell unfair again?), better spot removal, better mass removal, I don't really care how they want to approach it. But outside of Path to Exile (which is a pretty well balanced spell) there really isn't anything in Modern that is mana efficient enough for these ridiculously efficient creatures and pump spells you insist on printing.
5) Can we please get some card draw /selection spells that aren't horrible? There are so many creatures that are basically a 2 for 1 starting at 2cc and up. Where are the equivalent draw spells? Sure Treasure Cruise was busted but I actually think Dig alone might be fine since its basically just double Anticipate and its only a +1 card draw spell.
At the highest levels of chess, it is decided at that point, it just takes a few rounds for most people to realize it.
You know, Vintage is a format that is often determined by turn 2-3, even if it is not over and done at that point you very often can lock someone out so that you have effectively won the game already. But so much happens in those turn 2s that it is more interactive than most vintage games. And people who play that format are perfectly ok with it. It is not engineered that way for the most part, it is just that is the only way that format can be because of the card pool.
It is my opinion with the card pool as it is, and no controls in place like Force of will, trying to make Modern a turn 4 format is a mistake. It would be much better to embrace an interactive format with a lot of action in 3 turns than a boring, stale, and handicapped 4 turn format.
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As for Vintage, yes it is often determined very quickly. The difference is everyone has access to the speed, not just two or three aggressive creature decks. I actually like Vintage. But its a moot point anyway because very few people can afford to play that format. Modern should be the eternal format that is more accessible. Only right now it isn't fun.
I disagree that a format that lasts more than 3 turns would be boring and stale. I think the sheer variety of synergies in the Modern cardpool would lead to lots of really fun games. I think you would see lots more diversity and more interesting decision trees for players. What is the "lots of action in 3 turns" you are talking about? You want to get rid of BGx and UW and Tron and all those other archetypes? Because they certainly want the game to last beyond the first 3 turns. If that's the format you want, then you must be quite pleased with an Eldrazi/Affinity/Infect metagame.
This goes back to a design choice. Counterspell, Lightning Bolt, Swords to Ploughshares, Doom Blade/Terror, and Llanowar Elves are a part of the classical engines for starting a deck. With Bolt in effective has made red very effective splash. White has access to the most powerful removal in PTE as the successor to STP. Black lacks a defining creature destruction spell along the lines of white but can still work and quite honestly has been replaced with Thoughtseize as a format police dog. Green's got Tarmogoyf.
Blue lacks its trademark control spell with Counterspell. While it would not solve the Eldrazi Menace, it is one of the policing effects that is missing from the game. Control has been getting weaker in recent years with Counterspell nerfs, wrath nerfs, and so on.
I too enjoyed the possibilities with Eldrazi Processor control, but this ban will cripple that deck at least in current form.
I feel they need to reevaluate Standard and the Escher Stair Case at a start and begin looking at developmental design that allows for specific cards to enter Modern and afford a higher spell power level. We're in an era of conservative spells and liberal creatures, and a focus on commons for limited. Therefore as limited is a format of concern for primary concern, we receive fewer stronger spell support.
It's too many flawed designs by trying to make Portal level spells and Modern level creatures. A house that cannot stand. I mean, why do we get Little Jace Wallet Slayer, but Inquisition of Kozilek and Counterspell are too good? The answer is flawed design, and a lack of Modern understanding.
Modern
Commander
Cube
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This is someone who also gets it.
Ban free mana and will be a lot better, been saying this from the beginning.
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
I agree with you guys though. I think once Eldrazi or gone or diminished, Affinity will be the next in line of Birthing Pod, Splinter Twin, and at the ban announcement before next year's Pro Tour, Mox Opal will be the next to go. Seeing Affinity do well within metas that are plain horrible (like now or Cruise) shows some real strength and probably brokenness, despite "Affinity being the easiest to hate," which I don't personally believe. (Most of the time, you're relying on a 4 mana Sorcery to a deck that can kill before that or even rebuild occasionally after that.)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)That said, a lot more "moves" can be made in a turn of Magic: the Gathering than a turn of Chess, so I don't think the comparison makes much sense to begin with.
Been playing Affinity for a pretty long time and every time I can get my Mox up and going in turn one or two I am just a turn ahead of my opponent. It gets even worse when you have multiple Moxes in hand.
That is the whole reason I am thinking of selling my Affinity deck now and just have fun with my Zoo, both are creature decks.
I am looking at building Burn as a tier 1 deck replacement.
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
Jeskai Control does very well against stuff like Burn and Affinity, it has a ton of spot removal for small threats, can exhaust your hand while stabilizing and has endless hosers post-board. Abzan which has a lot of hand-hate and graveyard interactions does very well against Burn and post-board against Affinity. Grixis Delve is a very different style of Control deck as well which uses minimal land and endless card cycling to fuel bombs. It's still full of removal and permissions. The various Hatebear decks like D&T are interactive as well. The format still has very viable combos like Instant Reanimator (Grishoalbrand), Pyro-Storm still works though it has been forgotten about, Ad Nauseum, Scapeshift, Living End etc.
There is plenty of potential in the post-Twin meta for interactive decks to thrive, decks that have a naturally good match up against Infect, Burn and Affinity who have been a gauntlet in Modern for a very long time. Twin wasn't the sole reason those decks were kept in check and Eldrazi isn't the sole reason now. The meta needs time to adjust itself, for innovative players to place in big events, for new trends to form as a response to the aggro shift. I believe it will happen, but not while a deck as oppressive as Eldrazi is running rampant.
Anyway, also not that right about Vintage. It basically depends A LOT on the matchup. Some decks in Vintage are "control", so you can't just go all-in in then unless you have the absolute nuts, some decks are stax, etc. etc. Anyway, there are games that end on turn 1, yes, there are also games that take much longer than that. What you can say about Vintage is that it has high VARIANCE in regards to time, meaning games can either end really quickly or take a long long time with topdeck wars (or anything in between).
I do agree that random artificial constraints are stupid, a.k.a. banning decks because they can consistently win before turn 4 (but after that it is fine). That makes no sense. I do agree with bannings that regulate the health of a game, in the sense that you ban a card to take care of a real problematic deck (as they will likely do with eldrazi). Bloom never was a problem in my opinion, it could win on turn 2... so what? It wasn't even big on the metagame. It shouldn't have been banned. From a deckbuilding standpoint, I agree with the banning of Splinter Twin. I think it was just too unimaginative of a combo that was making its place in every deck and deck combination in a disgusting way. As a problem for the metagame I think it didn't deserve a banning.
Anyway, eldrazi will be banned, then modern will face its real challenge: linear non-interactive decks. Let's see what happens.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
I would keep it until a year from now or at least until people start harping on its success more. There's no reason to give up a deck that has one of the best chances at winning a tournament after Eye of Ugin is banned, especially if you play the deck well. I would personally milk as much success out of the deck as you can; sort of like how I'm doing with Eldrazi. Sure, I am fully aware that it isn't long for this world, but I'm going to milk as many wins as I can.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)If they take both lands no version will be viable. Some people might splash C for TKS or even smasher, but as a tribe the days would be over. Modern Resurgent, you might say.
If they take Eye, the tribe could be played but in a lot more midrange style since the Eldrazi pilot must cater for the grindier outcome where they don't draw temples. Temples can tap to help cast spells, so BW midrange with lingering souls may prevail, or perhaps the old processor style. I would be trying out GW with Descendant's path and ancient stirrings with white's pathe ot exiles and excellent sideboard options.
If they take temple but leave Eye, expect eldrazi to swing towards 2+U/R/W builds. Vile Aggregates, Skyspawners and Displacers cast for 1 mana will be the order of the day, and aggro style will continue to persist with Endless Ones and Mimics still flooding the board T1 if there is an Eye in the starting hand. The curve will drop, but if Temples are all that's going, Reality Smashers may go but the 3 CMC creatures will then take over.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Good point your making mate thanks. I am not playing in big tournaments anymore just an FNM once in a while so that is where my thinking also comes from.
Will think about it.
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
T2 TKS are also a problem, as are T3 5/5 hasty tramplers with discard-1-or-your-removal-is-countered.
To say just banning Mimic will relieve the situation shows that you haven't been piloting the deck or playing against it often enough. Mimics are the "loudest" play and easy to focus on, but they are hardly the biggest issue. Its the fatties they mimic the immediate turns after that really break them, and its the lands that enable this fracas.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Nah.. temple. As eye does absolutely nothing in multiples. My friend last night dealt with a pair of mimics and a phyrexian dreadnaught. She didn't enjoy the experience. As for Modern, it's more the temple and mimic... temple still allows turn 2 tks and reality smasher, where 2 eyes do nothing at all.
The problem here is although you can't stack Eye, the Eye itself already stacks. With 1 Eye and 1 Temple, you can cast 2 Matter Reshapers. With 1 Eye, 1 Temple and 1 Swamp, you can cast TKS and then process the card immediately with Wasteland Strangler. In both these common scenarios the Eye has basically produced "4" mana... in one turn. It is such a powerful mana "producer" that its fielded as a 4-of despite being legendary.
And we haven't talked about the fact that it tutors things in the lategame (if you get there). Ensnaring Bridge locks are overcome by tutoring for Ulamog or Endbringer. An endless chain of Smashers even if you get to topdeck mode.
The only real advantage Temple has over Eye is that it can pay for Dismember or other generic costs of nondrazi spells.
Your point that 2 Eyes does nothing at all is incorrect; the SECOND Eye drawn will do nothing at all, but the first one will have done enough.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Un-ban
Birthing Pod
Deathrite Shaman
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Ponder
Preordain
Splinter Twin
Stoneforge Mystic
Statistically... the chances of either of those happening without both temple and eye together is much much lower.
Let's assume nothing get's banned. In order for scenario 1 to occur, you must draw both a vile aggregate, skyspawner, and seer by turn 3.
The chance of drawing both the cards together is approximately 11%.
In order for you to be able to cast them, you need to draw the following combination of spells:
1 temple, 1 eye, 1 R/U colorless source 16%
1 Eye, 1 R/U colorless source, 1 urborg 16%
32% chance total of drawing the land-base. That means, currently, there is a combine chance of about 4% for that exact scenario to occur.
What happens when you take out temple?
In order for you to be able to cast them, you need to draw the following combination of spells:
1 Eye, 1 R/U colorless source, 1 urborg 16%
That is a 2% chance of occurring. By taking out temple: you reduce the probability by nearly half.
That's the main reason why I suspect we will see a temple ban and not an eye ban. Taking out eye actually reduces the probability of having fast mana more so than just eye.
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA