Welcome to the Modern banlist discussion! Here, you can discuss everything related to the banlist, from questioning the possibility of unbans to recent announcements of new bannings.
Please follow a few simple rules while you are here.
All MTGS forum rules apply here. For example, if you see a user flaming, spamming, or trolling, please report him/her instead of responding to it.
It is okay to discuss Legacy only if it is related to Modern bans and unbans.
Discussion about dramatically increasing the size of the banlist by more than 2-3 cards is not allowed. In the past, this sort of discussion has derailed the thread into completely unconstructive debate. There is a fine line between approved ban discussion (e.g. cards that are consistently breaking the turn 4 rule in top tier decks, or cards that make oppressive top tier decks) and spammy, prohibited discussion (e.g. banning Immolating Souleater and Fling because they theoretically break the turn 4 rule). If you see someone doing this, report them instead of responding to it. If you have a question about this, feel free to get in touch with staff to ask.
Do not discuss the "death of Modern" or generally claim that it is dying.
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(8/19/2015) Defining archetypes (e.g. "What is control?" "Does Modern have true control?") is only okay if it directly relates to unbans and bans. For example, if your post doesn't reference a card like Ancestral Vision, it won't be okay.
Remember, this is a place to discuss, and have fun. Keep it civil and keep your posts constructive.
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Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Some cards enable a top tier deck to consistently win on turn 3 or earlier. Because this violates the "turn 4" rule of the format, the following cards have been banned:
Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format. Here are some examples of these cards:
Some cards, currently only one, are banned because they were just mistakes. This card is one of the most broken cards of all time and has been banned in almost every format where it was or is legal:
Finally, there are some cards that were banned for logistical reasons. These cards made tournaments last too long and were banned to make events run smoother. They were not necessarily banned for power reasons.
Twin was an interactive deck that had a strong matchup vs many non-interactive strategies. Without Twin to help keep the non interactive strategies the format is going to be less fair.
You will see a surge of decks trying to outspeed and go under you, and you will see a surge of big mana decks trying to go over the top of you.
Fair decks lose out on this banning as well, big time.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
I have to say I was shocked by the ban of Twin but I've seen one reasoning that, for me, completely explained/justified the ban: when the combo is so good that you are literally throwing it into any old deck as a reliable back up "oops I won" condition that says volumes about the combo even if I wouldn't have probably banned it myself. Also, just look around the forums in the tier 2, 3, and deck creation threads. People are always brewing up new decks, sometimes combo decks like the Mirror-Mad Phantasm deck, and they give it up because of the argument, "If you are going to play combo in Modern, why not just play Twin? Your deck isn't worth even considering unless it's it has some sort of an advantage over just running Twin."
Twin may not have been oppressive in the sense of being completely unbeatable but it did stifle format diversity by simply making nearly every other non-graveyard based combo deck completely obsolete.
It's inevitable that some other combo deck will eventually step in to take Twin's place.
The following link is an invitation to join Pucatrade (card trading service though similar to TCGPLayer). If you follow the link then it awards me with tokens to exchange for actual cards. Thanks! https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
good. people can now tune their decks to ways that they dont have to be worried getting combo'd out.
Instead, now they have to worry about whether or not their deck is too good, and whether or not surgery will be performed upon it with a chainsaw come the next January. This sets a terrible precedent, and leaves us primarily with a meta that will consist of aggro/ramp/midrange. Not at all a "healthy" format, and that's not even taking into the precedent this update sets.
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Modern Decks WUBEsper ControlBUW URStormRU RGForest BelcherGR
To-Do List WModern Death and TaxesW WLegacy Death and TaxesW
I remember you and I talking about a twin banning and you saying that twin was necessary as a police deck in the format, well they just fired the police. I am not happy with the twin banning because it depowers the format and pushes it in the wrong direction and creates mass paranoia for people wanting to invest money.
As they keep beheading decks eventually your deck will come up so to all the people who are happy with this remember we could see a banning of something that costs even more someday. What if your lily or tarmo or fill in the blank card from your deck gets axed?
People trying to justify WOTC's decision to ban Twin are kidding themselves. WOTC 'shook up' the format, just like the pros have been wanting. This is because it is a pro tour format. This means that we have to hope like hell that our deck doesn't win a tournament, because that is now on WOTC's radar. I have lost a lot of faith and Wizards.
good. people can now tune their decks to ways that they dont have to be worried getting combo'd out.
Instead, now they have to worry about whether or not their deck is too good, and whether or not surgery will be performed upon it with a chainsaw come the next January. This sets a terrible precedent, and leaves us primarily with a meta that will consist of aggro/ramp/midrange. Not at all a "healthy" format, and that's not even taking into the precedent this update sets.
This is the big problem. Any gains we make because blue-based control cards can now be unbanned/reprinted/printed are outweighed by the precedent this sets about banning top-tier decks. If you play a good deck, it could just get banned because it's doing well at tournaments and because Wizards needs to shake things up for the PT. This includes Affinity, BGx Midrange, Tron, Burn, and really anything that has consistent performance. It sends a terrible message to players and ensures ban mania will be feverish throughout the entire year.
I am merely worried now that in the absence of twin more linear decks will spring to the top. Don't get me wrong I understand the reasons. You couldn't play U/x without first adding red for twin, which makes the card itself extremely limiting in diversity, and there was always the unnerving feeling of playing against a deck that could combo out at any time T3 forward. It was even worse game 2 and 3 because you NEVER knew how much of the combo was even left in the deck. That said, I hate tron and burn even more than I hated splinter twin.
As an individual card, the splinter twin ban makes sense.
As a card that worked itself into a strategy that helped the case of fair decks by being the linear deck to game against... not so much.
I've been saying bloom for a long time. No surprises there.
The more I think about the latest ban list update, the angrier I get. I love this format and I have been okay with almost every ban list update but the Twin banning is absurd and complete destroys what thin wisps of stability the format had. As much as I will keep playing I certainly wouldn't recommend that anyone ever buys into modern again, hell I doubt I will ever spent much money on it again.
My only hope out of this debacle is that the Pro Tour ends up being a complete meta-game nightmare to correctly demonstrate how appalling Wizards has handled this. If the Modern community at large had known this was the cost of a Modern Pro Tour I don't think we ever would have asked for it back.
Signed
A surprisingly angry, non-Twin player.
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In play: Jund Death Shadow, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Stompy, Ponza
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
Its a really really bad idea. People thought Modern was getting too fast before? Dont have to worry about that T4 twin now, so jam those linear cards, 'opponent did what? Who cares!' and kill them before T5.
Zoo builds, Infect, any degenerate combo, ELVES, all that crap just got a boost. Pro's complained before? lol...the flood gates of linear decks will open now.
I hated Twin. It had a high metagame percentage and I had to take it into consideration with any deck that I built or played. Still, I feel the format would be much better with it. I am only just now starting to come to the realization that there will be no Twin.
I agree that I feel (hope) that banning Twin is a step towards unbanning some of those Blue cards and maybe making Control an archetype eventually in Modern. But the ban screams of "if you play the best deck in the format and Pro Players also play your deck, then your deck has an expiration date." The last 2 times bans happened basically point to this. "We will ban the 2 best decks. You can have your time winning tournaments with them, but it will eventually happen." It seems like a terrible way to do things, but we'll see if some unbans happen. I am trying to be positive and if this allows MORE unbans to happen in the future, then I will be happier at that time.
*Related to the bans, I should be happy that I can now play Bogles with 4 Stony Silence in the sideboard.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
The ban is going to do exactly what Wotc wants in the coming months. We are going to see different decks winning and in top 8s. Those with local metas dominated by Twin now will have a refreshing change.
Everyone thinks this is the death of blue decks, I think just the opposite. Now that Twin is gone, other blue decks should pop up. Maybe a resurgence of Blue Moon or Jeskai midrange/control decks. Maybe something that has not even bee seen before. Time will tell.
The bans are going to give decks like Eldrazi (whatever build), Lantern control, and some lesser played decks a chance to make it to top tables.
I think Scapesift may be the deck that gets the biggest boost, but again we will see.
I am one who is happy Wotc is not treating Modern like other older formats so this announcement is fine in my eyes. It wont kill the format, and with the recent proxy announcement Legacy and Vintage events are going to be farther and fewer between, leaving Modern as the go to format in most areas.
This is the big problem. Any gains we make because blue-based control cards can now be unbanned/reprinted/printed are outweighed by the precedent this sets about banning top-tier decks. If you play a good deck, it could just get banned because it's doing well at tournaments and because Wizards needs to shake things up for the PT. This includes Affinity, BGx Midrange, Tron, Burn, and really anything that has consistent performance. It sends a terrible message to players and ensures ban mania will be feverish throughout the entire year.
Exactly. While I don't have the money to afford Legacy, I'm certainly considering it now more than ever. While I currently don't have any T1 decks, I have a half-built Affinity deck laying around and some pieces of Tron as well. I'm just going to sell/trade out everything I've got from those two decks. I don't think I'm going to touch any T1 decks for now, at least until/if Wizards releases some sort of statement clarifying their position (despite just how clear this ban made it) on how they plan to use the ban list going forward. If the January ban is going to regularly remove a T1 deck from the format... well, welcome to the unofficially rotating Modern/Super Standard.
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Modern Decks WUBEsper ControlBUW URStormRU RGForest BelcherGR
To-Do List WModern Death and TaxesW WLegacy Death and TaxesW
good. people can now tune their decks to ways that they dont have to be worried getting combo'd out.
Instead, now they have to worry about whether or not their deck is too good, and whether or not surgery will be performed upon it with a chainsaw come the next January. This sets a terrible precedent, and leaves us primarily with a meta that will consist of aggro/ramp/midrange. Not at all a "healthy" format, and that's not even taking into the precedent this update sets.
This is the big problem. Any gains we make because blue-based control cards can now be unbanned/reprinted/printed are outweighed by the precedent this sets about banning top-tier decks. If you play a good deck, it could just get banned because it's doing well at tournaments and because Wizards needs to shake things up for the PT. This includes Affinity, BGx Midrange, Tron, Burn, and really anything that has consistent performance. It sends a terrible message to players and ensures ban mania will be feverish throughout the entire year.
Wizards is super hesitant to even unban cards. They said they are "thinking about" unbanning Visions even though it's a joke of a ban and they don't want to unban sword of the meek because it makes lantern too good.
The ban is going to do exactly what Wotc wants in the coming months. We are going to see different decks winning and in top 8s. Those with local metas dominated by Twin now will have a refreshing change.
Everyone thinks this is the death of blue decks, I think just the opposite. Now that Twin is gone, other blue decks should pop up. Maybe a resurgence of Blue Moon or Jeskai midrange/control decks. Maybe something that has not even bee seen before. Time will tell.
The bans are going to give decks like Eldrazi (whatever build), Lantern control, and some lesser played decks a chance to make it to top tables.
I think Scapesift may be the deck that gets the biggest boost, but again we will see.
I am one who is happy Wotc is not treating Modern like other older formats so this announcement is fine in my eyes. It wont kill the format, and with the recent proxy announcement Legacy and Vintage events are going to be farther and fewer between, leaving Modern as the go to format in most areas.
Saying that banning twin will create blue decks is the same reasoning that they said when Wild Nacatl was banned to increase aggro decks. Obviously zoo died all together once Nacatl was banned out. Blue based decks are going to be bad because they can't compete with tron or eldrazi which lost a bad matchup. How does any midrange deck outrace tron? Blood moon will have to be mainboard to even deal with tron now.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
oh well looks like i am converting to grixis delver until i can figure out what to do long term.
i feel like affinity, infect, zoo, and burn all move up in the power vacuum until things settle down into something more stable.
ramp/big mana decks improve without the fear of twin, and bgx takes a subsequent hit.
overall not surprised by the ban. twin has always been on the precipice, and regardless of what decks it policed and what it did for the format; at the end of the day it is one of the "winniest" decks throughout moderns history.
what i don't like about this announcement is that they banned twin under the assumption that there are other near equal options that were being pushed out by twin, when in fact the alternatives have proven to be just less effective (jeskai control, grixis control, etc). twin did not prey on these decks, therefore if they were good enough before then they will not be good enough now.
hopefully this opens the door for an AV or DTT unban.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Summer Bloom is banned.
Splinter Twin is banned.
Next B&R Announcement:
April 4, 2016
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Welcome to the Modern banlist discussion! Here, you can discuss everything related to the banlist, from questioning the possibility of unbans to recent announcements of new bannings.
Please follow a few simple rules while you are here.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Skullclamp
Sensei's Divining Top
Second Sunrise
The following are links to WotC's in-depth explanations as to why cards have gotten banned since the beginning of the format:
Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin banned.
Birthing Pod/Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time banned, Golgari Grave-Troll unbanned
Bitterblossom/Nacatl unbanned. DRS banned
Addition of Second Sunrise
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3rd Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
1st Banned List change with explanations
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
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Old threads:
7/13/2015 - 1/16/2016
1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015
7/14/2014 - 1/19/2015
2/9/2014 - 7/14/2014
1/20/2014 - 2/10/2014
6/23/2014 - 1/20/2014
4/22/2013 - 6/23/213
1/27/2013 - 4/22/13
9/20/2012 - 1/27/2013
7/19/2012 - 9/20/2012
Splinter Twin and Summer Bloom banned.
Uh... discuss?
You will see a surge of decks trying to outspeed and go under you, and you will see a surge of big mana decks trying to go over the top of you.
Fair decks lose out on this banning as well, big time.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
Hah, you wish. Every degenerate deck that wasnt twin just said 'yeah!'
EDIT: How much a hit is Kiki going to be? 1 more mana, its a creature, etc...
Spirits
Twin may not have been oppressive in the sense of being completely unbeatable but it did stifle format diversity by simply making nearly every other non-graveyard based combo deck completely obsolete.
It's inevitable that some other combo deck will eventually step in to take Twin's place.
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
Better not play any good decks anymore. They are killing modern. Control doesn't exist. They are removing combo and turning things into yugioh.
Instead, now they have to worry about whether or not their deck is too good, and whether or not surgery will be performed upon it with a chainsaw come the next January. This sets a terrible precedent, and leaves us primarily with a meta that will consist of aggro/ramp/midrange. Not at all a "healthy" format, and that's not even taking into the precedent this update sets.
WUBEsper ControlBUW
URStormRU
RGForest BelcherGR
To-Do List
WModern Death and TaxesW
WLegacy Death and TaxesW
I remember you and I talking about a twin banning and you saying that twin was necessary as a police deck in the format, well they just fired the police. I am not happy with the twin banning because it depowers the format and pushes it in the wrong direction and creates mass paranoia for people wanting to invest money.
As they keep beheading decks eventually your deck will come up so to all the people who are happy with this remember we could see a banning of something that costs even more someday. What if your lily or tarmo or fill in the blank card from your deck gets axed?
This is the big problem. Any gains we make because blue-based control cards can now be unbanned/reprinted/printed are outweighed by the precedent this sets about banning top-tier decks. If you play a good deck, it could just get banned because it's doing well at tournaments and because Wizards needs to shake things up for the PT. This includes Affinity, BGx Midrange, Tron, Burn, and really anything that has consistent performance. It sends a terrible message to players and ensures ban mania will be feverish throughout the entire year.
As an individual card, the splinter twin ban makes sense.
As a card that worked itself into a strategy that helped the case of fair decks by being the linear deck to game against... not so much.
I've been saying bloom for a long time. No surprises there.
My only hope out of this debacle is that the Pro Tour ends up being a complete meta-game nightmare to correctly demonstrate how appalling Wizards has handled this. If the Modern community at large had known this was the cost of a Modern Pro Tour I don't think we ever would have asked for it back.
Signed
A surprisingly angry, non-Twin player.
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
Zoo builds, Infect, any degenerate combo, ELVES, all that crap just got a boost. Pro's complained before? lol...the flood gates of linear decks will open now.
Spirits
I hated Twin. It had a high metagame percentage and I had to take it into consideration with any deck that I built or played. Still, I feel the format would be much better with it. I am only just now starting to come to the realization that there will be no Twin.
I agree that I feel (hope) that banning Twin is a step towards unbanning some of those Blue cards and maybe making Control an archetype eventually in Modern. But the ban screams of "if you play the best deck in the format and Pro Players also play your deck, then your deck has an expiration date." The last 2 times bans happened basically point to this. "We will ban the 2 best decks. You can have your time winning tournaments with them, but it will eventually happen." It seems like a terrible way to do things, but we'll see if some unbans happen. I am trying to be positive and if this allows MORE unbans to happen in the future, then I will be happier at that time.
*Related to the bans, I should be happy that I can now play Bogles with 4 Stony Silence in the sideboard.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Everyone thinks this is the death of blue decks, I think just the opposite. Now that Twin is gone, other blue decks should pop up. Maybe a resurgence of Blue Moon or Jeskai midrange/control decks. Maybe something that has not even bee seen before. Time will tell.
The bans are going to give decks like Eldrazi (whatever build), Lantern control, and some lesser played decks a chance to make it to top tables.
I think Scapesift may be the deck that gets the biggest boost, but again we will see.
I am one who is happy Wotc is not treating Modern like other older formats so this announcement is fine in my eyes. It wont kill the format, and with the recent proxy announcement Legacy and Vintage events are going to be farther and fewer between, leaving Modern as the go to format in most areas.
Exactly. While I don't have the money to afford Legacy, I'm certainly considering it now more than ever. While I currently don't have any T1 decks, I have a half-built Affinity deck laying around and some pieces of Tron as well. I'm just going to sell/trade out everything I've got from those two decks. I don't think I'm going to touch any T1 decks for now, at least until/if Wizards releases some sort of statement clarifying their position (despite just how clear this ban made it) on how they plan to use the ban list going forward. If the January ban is going to regularly remove a T1 deck from the format... well, welcome to the unofficially rotating Modern/Super Standard.
WUBEsper ControlBUW
URStormRU
RGForest BelcherGR
To-Do List
WModern Death and TaxesW
WLegacy Death and TaxesW
It is good, allot of tier 2 decks just got better.
Wizards is super hesitant to even unban cards. They said they are "thinking about" unbanning Visions even though it's a joke of a ban and they don't want to unban sword of the meek because it makes lantern too good.
https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/688242056708243456
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Spirits
Saying that banning twin will create blue decks is the same reasoning that they said when Wild Nacatl was banned to increase aggro decks. Obviously zoo died all together once Nacatl was banned out. Blue based decks are going to be bad because they can't compete with tron or eldrazi which lost a bad matchup. How does any midrange deck outrace tron? Blood moon will have to be mainboard to even deal with tron now.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Because then literally anything that becomes strong is on the chopping block. Which means affinity is probably justified if twin is as well.
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
i feel like affinity, infect, zoo, and burn all move up in the power vacuum until things settle down into something more stable.
ramp/big mana decks improve without the fear of twin, and bgx takes a subsequent hit.
overall not surprised by the ban. twin has always been on the precipice, and regardless of what decks it policed and what it did for the format; at the end of the day it is one of the "winniest" decks throughout moderns history.
what i don't like about this announcement is that they banned twin under the assumption that there are other near equal options that were being pushed out by twin, when in fact the alternatives have proven to be just less effective (jeskai control, grixis control, etc). twin did not prey on these decks, therefore if they were good enough before then they will not be good enough now.
hopefully this opens the door for an AV or DTT unban.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)