Unban: Ancestral Visions, Bloodbraid Elf, Sword of the Meek
Encourage control and midrange again.
Plz let this happen wizards
Personally, I'm extremely against a BloodBraid Elf Unban. I remember Willy Edel said after the DeathRite and BloodBraid ban, he needed to approach Jund less as an explosive aggro deck but more as a control deck. Right now, Jund is actually bit more of a "control" deck as it hand disrupts combo and uses tarmogoyfs to block and build card advantage to win later game. If BloodBraid becomes unbanned, Jund will be more of an aggro deck where players would go hand disruption, tarmogoyf, Kitchen Finks/ Bob and BloodBraid kill you (hand disrupt, then race you).
if that happens, the meta game will become even more non-interactive.
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If wizard's bans anything from affinity... I will loose all hope for Modern as a format.
It's quite possible that it will happen next year before the Modern Pro Tour, it's probably the next "shakeup" ban unless the new set featuring it is artifact based in which it is in their best interest to keep the deck intact to create sales for their new product.
If wizard's bans anything from affinity... I will loose all hope for Modern as a format.
It's quite possible that it will happen next year before the Modern Pro Tour, it's probably the next "shakeup" ban unless the new set featuring it is artifact based in which it is in their best interest to keep the deck intact to create sales for their new product.
Affinity is not reliably the top deck though. Moreover it has yet to win a GP (all bannings have had at least one GP winner).
Now if it continues to be the top deck when Eldrazi get's banned... potentially. But I doubt it.
I proposed a charm one week ago with three modes.
X card
1UR
Instant
Choose one:
- pyroclasm
- negate
- bounce a permanent
That would be the only solution to control decks.
I would like another one for jund style decks.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
What 's exactly funny here?
Is it that you find this type of card too weak or too strong?
Instant Pyroclasm by itself is VERY strong. (I would make the case that an instant pyroclasm could warrant a ban by itself. Again, control decks would get a boost from this card, but this card would make Combo decks absolutely unbeatable.
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GP Singapore? Affinity is fine as it is, no need for a ban IMO. Affinity is still the most hated out deck and will continue to be so, that prevents Affinity to become as dominant as Eldrazi is currently. If ever Affinity becomes dominant, expect a rise in Jeskai control decks which means B/G/x decks will perform again and balance out the meta.
I proposed a charm one week ago with three modes.
X card
1UR
Instant
Choose one:
- pyroclasm
- negate
- bounce a permanent
That would be the only solution to control decks.
I would like another one for jund style decks.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
What 's exactly funny here?
Is it that you find this type of card too weak or too strong?
Instant Pyroclasm by itself is VERY strong. (I would make the case that an instant pyroclasm could warrant a ban by itself. Again, control decks would get a boost from this card, but this card would make Combo decks absolutely unbeatable.
Kozilek's Return is already an instant speed Pyroclasm at 3 CMC and it's far from broken. But you take Instant Speed Pyroclasm, add Negate and Boomerang to it as alternate options and you have a truly broken card at 3CMC with the only restriction being UR.
I am for unban both BBE and AV or nothing. Unbanning just AV makes no sense. It would make control better and Jund worse (and Jund isn't great positioned now) as it can't fight against so good card advantage. The you need to unban BBE too to make them closer like they are now otherwise control gets too big advantage comparing to Jund. Wizards need to make all fair interactive decks better not just one type while leave the other behind. Even Junk Control is unplayable right now.
Exactly. Jund has at least retained somewhat of a presence and is still considered Tier 1. Jund does not need help whatsoever. Control (and really, all non-merfolk blue decks) have fallen to the point of being unplayable at a competitive level, with absolutely no representation in Tier 1 or Tier 2. And to be honest AV doesn't help all that much in a format that kills you before it comes off suspend, but it would at least give them a chance to crawl back from the garbage pile they're currently in.
I would like to add that I'm not even personally that excited about AV and would much rather see Ponder or Preordain unbanned.
why do people love seeing sword of the meek put back? The card plus thopter foundry is a two card combo that blanks aggro? The only cards that can stop it our SB cards only. It slows the game to a grinding halt and is generally not fun to play against?
Because if you are not playing a combo deck or tron it is possibly the best thing to be doing in any fair game of magic.
I am for unban both BBE and AV or nothing. Unbanning just AV makes no sense. It would make control better and Jund worse (and Jund isn't great positioned now) as it can't fight against so good card advantage. The you need to unban BBE too to make them closer like they are now otherwise control gets too big advantage comparing to Jund. Wizards need to make all fair interactive decks better not just one type while leave the other behind. Even Junk Control is unplayable right now.
Exactly. Jund has at least retained somewhat of a presence and is still considered Tier 1. Jund does not need help whatsoever. Control (and really, all non-merfolk blue decks) have fallen to the point of being unplayable at a competitive level, with absolutely no representation in Tier 1 or Tier 2. And to be honest AV doesn't help all that much in a format that kills you before it comes off suspend, but it would at least give them a chance to crawl back from the garbage pile they're currently in.
I would like to add that I'm not even personally that excited about AV and would much rather see Ponder or Preordain unbanned.
If av were unbanned, I don't think jund is capable of coming back from av, that means every blue deck would have its way with the deck, its not like junk or Jund oppresses any decks
I don't actually think they will touch affinity because we have yet to see how it performs in a Twin-less, Eldrazi-less modern.
I mentioned Opal because it allows the deck to just expel their hand onto the board turn 1. But yeah, I can agree its not the main problem. And I will concede that affinity has far more hate printed than the interplanar invaders.
My unbans I will all stand behind. Jund doesn't get strictly better with bloodbraids added, especially since it keeps getting more and more sweet 4 drops (Pia and Kiran, kalitas), to the point where adding more 4 drops will just make the deck slower. How many Bloodbraids do you run? still 4? Isn't Pia/Kiran better in a lot of matchups because it is guaranteed bodies and removal?
I proposed a charm one week ago with three modes.
X card
1UR
Instant
Choose one:
- pyroclasm
- negate
- bounce a permanent
That would be the only solution to control decks.
I would like another one for jund style decks.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
What 's exactly funny here?
Is it that you find this type of card too weak or too strong?
Instant Pyroclasm by itself is VERY strong. (I would make the case that an instant pyroclasm could warrant a ban by itself. Again, control decks would get a boost from this card, but this card would make Combo decks absolutely unbeatable.
Not at sll. We already have an uncounterable instant speed pyroclasm for 3 and it sees absolutely no play.
I proposed a charm one week ago with three modes.
X card
1UR
Instant
Choose one:
- pyroclasm
- negate
- bounce a permanent
That would be the only solution to control decks.
I would like another one for jund style decks.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
What 's exactly funny here?
Is it that you find this type of card too weak or too strong?
Instant Pyroclasm by itself is VERY strong. (I would make the case that an instant pyroclasm could warrant a ban by itself. Again, control decks would get a boost from this card, but this card would make Combo decks absolutely unbeatable.
Not at sll. We already have an uncounterable instant speed pyroclasm for 3 and it sees absolutely no play.
But 2 and 3 are HUGE differences.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
No one proposed a CMC 2 Pyroclasm. The only proposal was a CMC 3 Pyroclasm on GK's charm, which also shouldn't be in this thread because it's card creation and not banlist talk.
if sets are designed a few years before (not that they test modern) could they have thought Eldrazi would be fine, but cards that have since been banned, ie pod,twin, have created a meta where eldrazi thrive. Has anyone tested any of the decks that were banned to oblivion against the eldrazi menace?
if sets are designed a few years before (not that they test modern) could they have thought Eldrazi would be fine, but cards that have since been banned, ie pod,twin, have created a meta where eldrazi thrive. Has anyone tested any of the decks that were banned to oblivion against the eldrazi menace?
Wizards has repeatedly stated they don't test for Modern. There is no way anyone in R&D thought through the Modern metagame like you are suggesting. At the absolute best, they said "Cool! These new cards synergize with Eldrazi lands in Modern! That looks like it will be fun for them." History gives plenty of examples of this testing failure in action, whether Rhino with Pod, TC/DTT period, DRS, etc.
For the people who think/expect/dream of Ponder/Preordain to come off, just think of this: who plays Serum Visions in modern?. UWR, Esper control or Delver, Griselbrand, Amulet Bloom, Storm, Midrange?.
If Goryos Vengance, SSG where to be banned, then those CAN be considered.
I think Wotc is trying to keep some form of glass cannon/fringe combo decks to keep a select group of players happy. And im all in for that, there should be combo in Modern. There should be Control too. Absurd cantrips are no the way to go.
Control decks have two big issues: Decent answers to the threats modern presents and Card advantage in the form of drawing(at least thats what control decks originally had). By card drawing i mean DRAWING CARDS not SELECTING CARDS. Serum visions vs Sphinx Revelation?...Sphinx for my control deck.
P&P were mostly an issue because Storm was very powerful back then. Now that Storm has been nerfed into oblivion, the only combo deck that might be problematic with Preordain would be the Goryo's Vengeance deck. But I'd rather just have card selection unbanned and then ban combo enablers instead. That's what wizards likes to do anyway; I'm not sure why back when they banned P&P they deviated from their usual "ban the enabler" plan.
I think at least Preordain deserves to be freed. Control really needs card selection. If it means we have to ban some combo enablers down the road, so be it.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
What 's exactly funny here?
Is it that you find this type of card too weak or too strong?
Instant Pyroclasm by itself is VERY strong. (I would make the case that an instant pyroclasm could warrant a ban by itself. Again, control decks would get a boost from this card, but this card would make Combo decks absolutely unbeatable.
Not at sll. We already have an uncounterable instant speed pyroclasm for 3 and it sees absolutely no play.
P&P were mostly an issue because Storm was very powerful back then. Now that Storm has been nerfed into oblivion, the only combo deck that might be problematic with Preordain would be the Goryo's Vengeance deck. But I'd rather just have card selection unbanned and then ban combo enablers instead. That's what wizards likes to do anyway; I'm not sure why back when they banned P&P they deviated from their usual "ban the enabler" plan.
I think at least Preordain deserves to be freed. Control really needs card selection. If it means we have to ban some combo enablers down the road, so be it.
It still would not help. Really control needs actual card advantage. The only cantrip ever printed in magic that is actually good in control is brainstorm because that is essentially a draw spell since it is a virtual half mulligan at any point during the game. Control needs good answers and a way to shut the door which is where cards like jace tms and av come in. Sure they do not stop the linear decks from killing you but if you survive to turn 4 or 5 you get rewarded. Preordain nor ponder will do that for you. Those cards just keep the 1 for 1 game going which eventually leads to a loss.
Grixis is a very misleading deck. Yes they play cantrips but that is not because they are good in control but because they feed delve and cheap spells sygergize with snapcaster better. If they were playing a true Weissman control deck they would prefer Think Twice even it is a pretty bad card draw spell it still does what the archetype needs to do.
I have to say it again, Delver is a deck that most likely would only be one cantrip away from being viable after the Eldrazi ban.
Every Legacy and Pauper Delver deck plays 2 cantrips to set up Delver, meanwhile Modern still has only one: Serum Visions, one good cantrip like Preordain or Ponder is really all that's needed.
Ancestral Vision is good to help control decks, but it still won't do anything to help tempo which is also non existent.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I have to say it again, Delver is a deck that most likely would only be one cantrip away from being viable after the Eldrazi ban.
Every Legacy and Pauper Delver deck plays 2 cantrips to set up Delver, meanwhile Modern still has only one: Serum Visions, one good cantrip like Preordain or Ponder is really all that's needed.
Ancestral Vision is good to help control decks, but it still won't do anything to help tempo which is also non existent.
I think Faeries would get a significant boost from an AV unban, which is probably the main reason I'm so hopeful that it hurts. I mean, who wouldn't like to see Faeries vs. Jund? Superman vs. Batman of Modern Magic?
Cantrips are fine as they are. Sleight of Hand, while not usually mentioned, is a reasonable card for Modern and throwing any other cantrips into the mix that are on par with that and SV makes combo decks that much more troublesome. Sleight doesn't set up delver, but those sort of decks really want more free spells, not cantrips.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
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I would add ssg to that list also.
Personally, I'm extremely against a BloodBraid Elf Unban. I remember Willy Edel said after the DeathRite and BloodBraid ban, he needed to approach Jund less as an explosive aggro deck but more as a control deck. Right now, Jund is actually bit more of a "control" deck as it hand disrupts combo and uses tarmogoyfs to block and build card advantage to win later game. If BloodBraid becomes unbanned, Jund will be more of an aggro deck where players would go hand disruption, tarmogoyf, Kitchen Finks/ Bob and BloodBraid kill you (hand disrupt, then race you).
if that happens, the meta game will become even more non-interactive.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
It's quite possible that it will happen next year before the Modern Pro Tour, it's probably the next "shakeup" ban unless the new set featuring it is artifact based in which it is in their best interest to keep the deck intact to create sales for their new product.
Affinity is not reliably the top deck though. Moreover it has yet to win a GP (all bannings have had at least one GP winner).
Now if it continues to be the top deck when Eldrazi get's banned... potentially. But I doubt it.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Instant Pyroclasm by itself is VERY strong. (I would make the case that an instant pyroclasm could warrant a ban by itself. Again, control decks would get a boost from this card, but this card would make Combo decks absolutely unbeatable.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Kozilek's Return is already an instant speed Pyroclasm at 3 CMC and it's far from broken. But you take Instant Speed Pyroclasm, add Negate and Boomerang to it as alternate options and you have a truly broken card at 3CMC with the only restriction being UR.
Exactly. Jund has at least retained somewhat of a presence and is still considered Tier 1. Jund does not need help whatsoever. Control (and really, all non-merfolk blue decks) have fallen to the point of being unplayable at a competitive level, with absolutely no representation in Tier 1 or Tier 2. And to be honest AV doesn't help all that much in a format that kills you before it comes off suspend, but it would at least give them a chance to crawl back from the garbage pile they're currently in.
I would like to add that I'm not even personally that excited about AV and would much rather see Ponder or Preordain unbanned.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Because if you are not playing a combo deck or tron it is possibly the best thing to be doing in any fair game of magic.
If av were unbanned, I don't think jund is capable of coming back from av, that means every blue deck would have its way with the deck, its not like junk or Jund oppresses any decks
I mentioned Opal because it allows the deck to just expel their hand onto the board turn 1. But yeah, I can agree its not the main problem. And I will concede that affinity has far more hate printed than the interplanar invaders.
My unbans I will all stand behind. Jund doesn't get strictly better with bloodbraids added, especially since it keeps getting more and more sweet 4 drops (Pia and Kiran, kalitas), to the point where adding more 4 drops will just make the deck slower. How many Bloodbraids do you run? still 4? Isn't Pia/Kiran better in a lot of matchups because it is guaranteed bodies and removal?
Not at sll. We already have an uncounterable instant speed pyroclasm for 3 and it sees absolutely no play.
But 2 and 3 are HUGE differences.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
No one proposed a CMC 2 Pyroclasm. The only proposal was a CMC 3 Pyroclasm on GK's charm, which also shouldn't be in this thread because it's card creation and not banlist talk.
Wizards has repeatedly stated they don't test for Modern. There is no way anyone in R&D thought through the Modern metagame like you are suggesting. At the absolute best, they said "Cool! These new cards synergize with Eldrazi lands in Modern! That looks like it will be fun for them." History gives plenty of examples of this testing failure in action, whether Rhino with Pod, TC/DTT period, DRS, etc.
If Goryos Vengance, SSG where to be banned, then those CAN be considered.
I think Wotc is trying to keep some form of glass cannon/fringe combo decks to keep a select group of players happy. And im all in for that, there should be combo in Modern. There should be Control too. Absurd cantrips are no the way to go.
Control decks have two big issues: Decent answers to the threats modern presents and Card advantage in the form of drawing(at least thats what control decks originally had). By card drawing i mean DRAWING CARDS not SELECTING CARDS. Serum visions vs Sphinx Revelation?...Sphinx for my control deck.
I think at least Preordain deserves to be freed. Control really needs card selection. If it means we have to ban some combo enablers down the road, so be it.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
It still would not help. Really control needs actual card advantage. The only cantrip ever printed in magic that is actually good in control is brainstorm because that is essentially a draw spell since it is a virtual half mulligan at any point during the game. Control needs good answers and a way to shut the door which is where cards like jace tms and av come in. Sure they do not stop the linear decks from killing you but if you survive to turn 4 or 5 you get rewarded. Preordain nor ponder will do that for you. Those cards just keep the 1 for 1 game going which eventually leads to a loss.
Grixis is a very misleading deck. Yes they play cantrips but that is not because they are good in control but because they feed delve and cheap spells sygergize with snapcaster better. If they were playing a true Weissman control deck they would prefer Think Twice even it is a pretty bad card draw spell it still does what the archetype needs to do.
Every Legacy and Pauper Delver deck plays 2 cantrips to set up Delver, meanwhile Modern still has only one: Serum Visions, one good cantrip like Preordain or Ponder is really all that's needed.
Ancestral Vision is good to help control decks, but it still won't do anything to help tempo which is also non existent.
nvm.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I think Faeries would get a significant boost from an AV unban, which is probably the main reason I'm so hopeful that it hurts. I mean, who wouldn't like to see Faeries vs. Jund? Superman vs. Batman of Modern Magic?
Cantrips are fine as they are. Sleight of Hand, while not usually mentioned, is a reasonable card for Modern and throwing any other cantrips into the mix that are on par with that and SV makes combo decks that much more troublesome. Sleight doesn't set up delver, but those sort of decks really want more free spells, not cantrips.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.