I am remembering back to formats I played where Daze was legal, and it just crushed the possibility of playing creatures that cost more than two, because the tempo loss of your opponent having a normal turn 3 and then tapping out only to have your guy countered for "free" and then you opponent gets their turn 4 with you tapped out.
Daze is too much tempo and too good for Modern I believe; just the possibility of being blown out to this extent is too much of a burden on deck building.
Try Gush with Shocklands, it's pretty reasonable. This in turn forces you to Gush off of basic Islands in order to not give up Tempo (there's also no Moxes so you Gush later in the games), which in turn pushes a deck to two colors or sometimes even one which creates other restrictions. It's not as free as something like Visions, and doesn't have a good interaction with Snapcaster Mage either. Seriously, try it out... Gush is good but it would be a very reasonable card in Modern (and not even an auto 4 of in blue) rather than format breaking.
why can't they just only ban eldrazi temple? If they do that, then the deck's consistency will be heavily effected forcing a player to mulligan hands without eye of ugin or lose to most decks.
Because Eye is the broken card, not Temple. Temple will produce 2 almost all the time, Eye AT THE MINIMUM produces 2 and usually more.
That doesn't matter if someone just ghost quartered the only eye you drew in the game, or if you have to mull down to get an eye or else you lose.
I am remembering back to formats I played where Daze was legal, and it just crushed the possibility of playing creatures that cost more than two, because the tempo loss of your opponent having a normal turn 3 and then tapping out only to have your guy countered for "free" and then you opponent gets their turn 4 with you tapped out.
Daze is too much tempo and too good for Modern I believe; just the possibility of being blown out to this extent is too much of a burden on deck building.
Try Gush with Shocklands, it's pretty reasonable. This in turn forces you to Gush off of basic Islands in order to not give up Tempo (there's also no Moxes so you Gush later in the games), which in turn pushes a deck to two colors or sometimes even one which creates other restrictions. It's not as free as something like Visions, and doesn't have a good interaction with Snapcaster Mage either. Seriously, try it out... Gush is good but it would be a very reasonable card in Modern (and not even an auto 4 of in blue) rather than format breaking.
I agree its maybe not a 4 of, but it is still an amazing tempo card.
I love Vintage style old school Miracle Grow decks as much as anyone, great deck, ton of fun, but I'd be afraid of Gush being Modern legal. Its such a small drawback for decks that need few land, to Gush an Island and Shock Island back to your hand EoT when you didn't have a land already in hand for the next turn.
I could be wrong, frequently am. I'd enjoy playing Gush for sure.
Banning both is the most logical path. Modern is an objectively better format without either Tron or Eldrazi. Tron has an extremely low skill cap and pushes control out of the format. Tron is based on fast mana that is completely out of line with the Modern design philosophy: it constricts design space of 7+ mana colorless permanents. Eye, which can produce 4 mana on turn 1, is utterly ridiculous in Eldrazi.
Tron is not overpowered right now, but the decks it's pushing out of the format are much more exciting and skill-testing. If you want to see exciting midrange vs. control games, Tron just has to go. It's not good for the game when any Wasteland Karl can show up with Tron and be favored against Reid Duke and Brad Nelson on Jund. The presence of Tron in lower rounds of GPs is a serious problem because much more skilled players can just have games stolen from them only to have the Tron players get nowhere due to the deck's abysmal aggro matchups. Tron should be Tier 3 at best.
These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
I am remembering back to formats I played where Daze was legal, and it just crushed the possibility of playing creatures that cost more than two, because the tempo loss of your opponent having a normal turn 3 and then tapping out only to have your guy countered for "free" and then you opponent gets their turn 4 with you tapped out.
Daze is too much tempo and too good for Modern I believe; just the possibility of being blown out to this extent is too much of a burden on deck building.
Try Gush with Shocklands, it's pretty reasonable. This in turn forces you to Gush off of basic Islands in order to not give up Tempo (there's also no Moxes so you Gush later in the games), which in turn pushes a deck to two colors or sometimes even one which creates other restrictions. It's not as free as something like Visions, and doesn't have a good interaction with Snapcaster Mage either. Seriously, try it out... Gush is good but it would be a very reasonable card in Modern (and not even an auto 4 of in blue) rather than format breaking.
I agree its maybe not a 4 of, but it is still an amazing tempo card.
I love Vintage style old school Miracle Grow decks as much as anyone, great deck, ton of fun, but I'd be afraid of Gush being Modern legal. Its such a small drawback for decks that need few land, to Gush an Island and Shock Island back to your hand EoT when you didn't have a land already in hand for the next turn.
I could be wrong, frequently am. I'd enjoy playing Gush for sure.
I'll go on the record and say that I think Gush is too good for Vintage, much less any other format. That card is busted in half, especially when combined with any kind of library manipulation.
Banning both is the most logical path. Modern is an objectively better format without either Tron or Eldrazi. Tron has an extremely low skill cap and pushes control out of the format. Tron is based on fast mana that is completely out of line with the Modern design philosophy: it constricts design space of 7 and 8-mana colorless permanents. Eye, which can produce 4 mana on turn 1, is utterly ridiculous in Eldrazi.
Tron is not overpowered right now, but the decks it's pushing out of the format are much more exciting and skill-testing.
Tron is fine. There is no need to hurt it right now. That would just make a bunch of people mad and not many people happy.
Eldrazi, on the other hand would be unplayable if they banned eye, banning temple only keeps it viable just not as overpowered due to the loss of consistency.
I'm perfectly happy with Eldrazi being unplayable. The deck has nothing meaningful to contribute to the format.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Also, only banning temple won't affect tron and will most likely not kill the eldrazi deck.
Come on guys this.
I know you guys don't like the Eldrazi deck.
But we can neuter the deck without burning it to the ground.
Ban eye of ugin and the deck no longer exists. Ban temple and it takes a huge blow to its consistency.
Give us a break, you don't want Eye banned because of your Tron deck, not your Eldrazi deck.
The Eldrazi deck could exist with Temple or Eye, of course it wouldn't be as good which is the point of banning one of them. Eye is the right one to ban because it enables more broken things as it relates to the Eldrazi deck.
The Tron fans don't want Eye banned obviously for the splash damage on their deck, at least be honest about it.
Edit: actually a case can be made the Eldrazi deck is unplayable with only Eye, because unlike Tron, the Eldrazi deck needs the Sol lands for the mana acceleration. With Eye banned and Temple available, Eldrazi decks have access to 4 redundant Sol lands. With Eye and no Temple, they have very little acceleration except for the small ones that casting reduction as opposed to mana generation make broken.
I think the format would be well-designed if Tier 1 consisted of Jund, Abzan, Burn, Twin, Affinity, Infect, Jeskai Control, and a random smattering of combo decks.
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Twin isn't coming back for a few years now, we're just going to have to accept that. They're too proud to admit they ****ed up, also the instability caused by banning something and unbanning it a few months later is probably worse than anything positive it would do.
My ideal tier 1 modern would be BGx, Zoo, CoCo, Affinity, Ux Control decks of different flavours (esper maybe?), Delver, Infect, Merfolk, Elves
Then burn, Tron and combo decks relegated to tier 2 etc
Not having combo decks at tier is already a bad format - and I don't even play combo decks. Legacy has found a way for all archetypes to exist, Modern should do the same thing imo. It's only fair to all types of players.
Are we really talking "free" spells like gush and daze? Absolutely not. In fact, take that crap straight to the reprint thread.
Out of curiosity, is Eldrazi okay if a hoser is printed and deck becomes like affinity, very powerful but folds to hate? I would be alright with it under those circumstances but I know how not everyone would.
Are we really talking "free" spells like gush and daze? Absolutely not. In fact, take that crap straight to the reprint thread.
Out of curiosity, is Eldrazi okay if a hoser is printed and deck becomes like affinity, very powerful but folds to hate? I would be alright with it under those circumstances but I know how not everyone would.
I find it kind of bizarre that people are suggesting those cards for modern. Anyone who has played Legacy knows how powerful Daze actually is, and there is a freaking BOOK written about how broken Gush is.
(Gush should be restricted in vintage, for what its worth).
I think the format would be well-designed if Tier 1 consisted of Jund, Abzan, Burn, Twin, Affinity, Infect, Jeskai Control, and a random smattering of combo decks.
add Tron to that list and I would be in complete agreement. The problem here is that it's very similar to what we just had, and will never have again due to hubris.
To put it simply, ban eye, kill another deck and take inevitability away from another. It's not like tier 1 decks are safe or anything. Maybe I'm just jaded, but I see no good coming from a ban. That's not to say that I don't want a ban, but that's probably because I don't trust the decision makers to make the correct decision.
I'm perfectly happy with Eldrazi being unplayable. The deck has nothing meaningful to contribute to the format.
Well, that is your opinion. I think many people like playing eldrazi and wouldn't like if it became obsolete.
Killing an unfun deck mere weeks after it has been legal will hurt a lot less than the inevitable ban that will need to happen. The deck is too good at too many things. If we can get mad at Twin for being able to combo off AND tempo you out, then Eldrazi is definitely a hard sell as Aggro/Control/Midrange all in one. The problem is that they pushed every single one of these Eldrazi creatures to stupid levels, far past the level of creatures in any other deck. We just got smashed in the face with years worth of power creep and only one deck profits from it. A deck that's only existed for a few weeks. Just kill it and move on.
I wouldn't be surprised if they end up emergency banning something from the Eldrazi deck before the next DCI update. 2 months is a long time to let it exist if it's as dominant as it has appeared thus far.
I don't know how I feel about Daze in Modern. Blue needs something new and it's nowhere near as warping as Mental Misstep.
Daze in Modern would be less overpowered because of the presence of shocklands instead of duals. I feel like Merfolk and Infect become very, very strong with it.
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As a tron player, losing Eye of Ugin would hurt us a lot and we were pretty good before Gatewatch came. Wizards absolutely hates it, but why not restrict Eye of Ugin to one per deck. It limits the effectiveness and reliability of Eldrazi pulling off free spells turn one and doesn't neuter an established archtype.
I'm perfectly happy with Eldrazi being unplayable. The deck has nothing meaningful to contribute to the format.
Im speaking as a BW eldrazi player so I am obviously biased but I think this is very untrue. Admittedly, the aggro versions of eldrazi are just a very degenerate aggro deck but the processor versions are interesting midrange decks that do something totally unique in the modern format: depend on and interact w/ exile. They are a fun deck that (outside of eye) is much more affordable to players who want to jump into the format (and new players in modern is always a good thing). I don't want any bans and hope this issue can be solved with unbans and new cards, but if they do ban something I hope it is eye. Tron and Eldrazi can both survive w/out eye (though they will be weakened) and the fast aggro versions of eldrazi are hurt a lot more by its absence than the midrange/processor versions.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Well, that is your opinion. I think many people like playing eldrazi and wouldn't like if it became obsolete.
LOL i'm sure they'll get over playing something that was completely broken for a few weeks.... tell that to the twin players who were playing something completely fine for a few years...
Try Gush with Shocklands, it's pretty reasonable. This in turn forces you to Gush off of basic Islands in order to not give up Tempo (there's also no Moxes so you Gush later in the games), which in turn pushes a deck to two colors or sometimes even one which creates other restrictions. It's not as free as something like Visions, and doesn't have a good interaction with Snapcaster Mage either. Seriously, try it out... Gush is good but it would be a very reasonable card in Modern (and not even an auto 4 of in blue) rather than format breaking.
That doesn't matter if someone just ghost quartered the only eye you drew in the game, or if you have to mull down to get an eye or else you lose.
I agree its maybe not a 4 of, but it is still an amazing tempo card.
I love Vintage style old school Miracle Grow decks as much as anyone, great deck, ton of fun, but I'd be afraid of Gush being Modern legal. Its such a small drawback for decks that need few land, to Gush an Island and Shock Island back to your hand EoT when you didn't have a land already in hand for the next turn.
I could be wrong, frequently am. I'd enjoy playing Gush for sure.
Come on guys this.
I know you guys don't like the Eldrazi deck.
But we can neuter the deck without burning it to the ground.
Ban eye of ugin and the deck no longer exists. Ban temple and it takes a huge blow to its consistency.
Tron is not overpowered right now, but the decks it's pushing out of the format are much more exciting and skill-testing. If you want to see exciting midrange vs. control games, Tron just has to go. It's not good for the game when any Wasteland Karl can show up with Tron and be favored against Reid Duke and Brad Nelson on Jund. The presence of Tron in lower rounds of GPs is a serious problem because much more skilled players can just have games stolen from them only to have the Tron players get nowhere due to the deck's abysmal aggro matchups. Tron should be Tier 3 at best.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
I'll go on the record and say that I think Gush is too good for Vintage, much less any other format. That card is busted in half, especially when combined with any kind of library manipulation.
Tron is fine. There is no need to hurt it right now. That would just make a bunch of people mad and not many people happy.
Eldrazi, on the other hand would be unplayable if they banned eye, banning temple only keeps it viable just not as overpowered due to the loss of consistency.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Give us a break, you don't want Eye banned because of your Tron deck, not your Eldrazi deck.
The Eldrazi deck could exist with Temple or Eye, of course it wouldn't be as good which is the point of banning one of them. Eye is the right one to ban because it enables more broken things as it relates to the Eldrazi deck.
The Tron fans don't want Eye banned obviously for the splash damage on their deck, at least be honest about it.
Edit: actually a case can be made the Eldrazi deck is unplayable with only Eye, because unlike Tron, the Eldrazi deck needs the Sol lands for the mana acceleration. With Eye banned and Temple available, Eldrazi decks have access to 4 redundant Sol lands. With Eye and no Temple, they have very little acceleration except for the small ones that casting reduction as opposed to mana generation make broken.
Well, that is your opinion. I think many people like playing eldrazi and wouldn't like if it became obsolete.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Not having combo decks at tier is already a bad format - and I don't even play combo decks. Legacy has found a way for all archetypes to exist, Modern should do the same thing imo. It's only fair to all types of players.
Welcome to Modern with Pod and Twin players.
Out of curiosity, is Eldrazi okay if a hoser is printed and deck becomes like affinity, very powerful but folds to hate? I would be alright with it under those circumstances but I know how not everyone would.
I find it kind of bizarre that people are suggesting those cards for modern. Anyone who has played Legacy knows how powerful Daze actually is, and there is a freaking BOOK written about how broken Gush is.
(Gush should be restricted in vintage, for what its worth).
add Tron to that list and I would be in complete agreement. The problem here is that it's very similar to what we just had, and will never have again due to hubris.
To put it simply, ban eye, kill another deck and take inevitability away from another. It's not like tier 1 decks are safe or anything. Maybe I'm just jaded, but I see no good coming from a ban. That's not to say that I don't want a ban, but that's probably because I don't trust the decision makers to make the correct decision.
URW Control
U R Blood Moons Over My Hammy
Killing an unfun deck mere weeks after it has been legal will hurt a lot less than the inevitable ban that will need to happen. The deck is too good at too many things. If we can get mad at Twin for being able to combo off AND tempo you out, then Eldrazi is definitely a hard sell as Aggro/Control/Midrange all in one. The problem is that they pushed every single one of these Eldrazi creatures to stupid levels, far past the level of creatures in any other deck. We just got smashed in the face with years worth of power creep and only one deck profits from it. A deck that's only existed for a few weeks. Just kill it and move on.
This is not true. the deck adds something to the format: another archetype that you need to be prepared for.
Having so many wildly different decks is part of, IMO, what makes modern so popular
Daze in Modern would be less overpowered because of the presence of shocklands instead of duals. I feel like Merfolk and Infect become very, very strong with it.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Im speaking as a BW eldrazi player so I am obviously biased but I think this is very untrue. Admittedly, the aggro versions of eldrazi are just a very degenerate aggro deck but the processor versions are interesting midrange decks that do something totally unique in the modern format: depend on and interact w/ exile. They are a fun deck that (outside of eye) is much more affordable to players who want to jump into the format (and new players in modern is always a good thing). I don't want any bans and hope this issue can be solved with unbans and new cards, but if they do ban something I hope it is eye. Tron and Eldrazi can both survive w/out eye (though they will be weakened) and the fast aggro versions of eldrazi are hurt a lot more by its absence than the midrange/processor versions.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
LOL i'm sure they'll get over playing something that was completely broken for a few weeks.... tell that to the twin players who were playing something completely fine for a few years...