If we do not receive a small set of modern specific answers (make a special banlist announcement that introduces a small specific group of cards into ONLY modern's ecosystem), this will continue to be a constant thing.
Some people are already tinkering with a legacy Eldrazi aggro list and its actually pretty damn good. Not as format warping at modern, but at an acceptable power level for legacy.
This deck is basically a legacy deck playing against modern decks.
Although everyone knew Eldrazi was going to be powerful I think we still need time to see if it will define the metagame.
The Pro Tour is a very, very different tournament than most "Open" tournaments so the Eldrazi decks and card choices were chosen for THIS PRO TOUR.
If Twin/Bloom was still legal, then just insert Twin/Bloom for every Eldrazi deck played and people would be spamming the same complaints about diversity.
Of course the netdeckers are going to build 4x Chalice, 4x Simian Spirit Guide decks in the next few months, but it just seems so horrible taking that to any other event than pro tour oath.
Give it sometime and hopefully the next announcement from WOTC for Modern will consist of alteast 3-4 card unbans and no bans.
...unless there's some unexpected turn of events Eye of Ugin will not be legal by april
regards,Bill
I always wondered this. Why Eye of Ugin? Why not Eldrazi Temple? I know Eye causes them to not have to tap mana on multiple threats, but it allows for Tron to stay the same, but it is Legendary and gives people the search ability. I know I'd be disappointed if Eye was banned (my Tron deck would cry). Eldrazi Temple however, I'd be find with it being banned as it would still allow Eldrazi to be a deck, accept not as easy to mulligan to the land you need.
Without Eye of Ugin you can not have turn one 4 critter drops (endless & mimics - 8 copies of 2cc drop) which set the stage for possible TNS or Reality Smasher via Simian Spirit Guide on turn 2. It is possible to swing for a turn 2 kill depending on the number of mimics dropped on turn one.
Temple cannot do this alone nor does it allow for a plausible 4 creature drop on turn one. If WOTC is looking for the best target to ban AND keep this deck in tact I would think it would be the Eye. Meta may/will respond to this deck with profound artifact hate, but I am unsure this will be enough to stop a possible banning. LD will also be included for temple and eyes in the form of 2-4 ghost quarter main deck.
Sure eye is better, but banning eye kills the deck and kills Tron at the same time. That is completely overboard.
Ban Eldrazi temple and you now have a glass cannon deck. Sure you could have an Eye, 3X mimic hand, but you only have 4 eyes in the entire deck. It would be no different then Infect or Grishoalbrand which can win turn 2 with perfect draws or turn 3 Karn in Tron.
Just because a deck CAN have a busted draw doesn't make the deck unfair. The issue Eldrazi has is that it has 8 lands that are busted. Drop that to 4 and the deck loses tons of consistency but probably can still survive.
Yeah Eye, with the new card pool, is obviously problematic as its a land that is now worth X x 2 mana on Turn 1, where x is how many Eldrazi 2 drops you have! Its crazy acceleration when you look at it like that.
Although everyone knew Eldrazi was going to be powerful I think we still need time to see if it will define the metagame.
The Pro Tour is a very, very different tournament than most "Open" tournaments so the Eldrazi decks and card choices were chosen for THIS PRO TOUR.
If Twin/Bloom was still legal, then just insert Twin/Bloom for every Eldrazi deck played and people would be spamming the same complaints about diversity.
Of course the netdeckers are going to build 4x Chalice, 4x Simian Spirit Guide decks in the next few months, but it just seems so horrible taking that to any other event than pro tour oath.
Give it sometime and hopefully the next announcement from WOTC for Modern will consist of alteast 3-4 card unbans and no bans.
Is anyone actually arguing for Bloom's unbanning? That was the best ban Wizards has executed in years, targeted against a confirmed turn four rule violator.
As for Twin, no one knows how the metagame would have played out with Twin in the picture, but we should all agree that undoing the Twin ban would be a disaster for the format. If Wizards is doubling down on a format strategy and vision (which, admittedly, they might not have...) then they need to stick to their Twin-ban guns. Reversing that would just plunge the format into more uncertainty and volatility, and that's not what Modern needs now.
Sure eye is better, but banning eye kills the deck and kills Tron at the same time. That is completely overboard.
Ban Eldrazi temple and you now have a glass cannon deck. Sure you could have an Eye, 3X mimic hand, but you only have 4 eyes in the entire deck. It would be no different then Infect or Grishoalbrand which can win turn 2 with perfect draws or turn 3 Karn in Tron.
Just because a deck CAN have a busted draw doesn't make the deck unfair. The issue Eldrazi has is that it has 8 lands that are busted. Drop that to 4 and the deck loses tons of consistency but probably can still survive.
Ban the broken card, it's simple. Eye is broken, and taking Tron down a notch really incentivizes playing control decks.
Honestly...they could just call it a kneejerk, unban a TON of cards including Twin in April or whenever the next announcement is and say "In light of the flood of filth unleashed on Modern and its inability to manage itself, we are letting you play with everything.'
Although everyone knew Eldrazi was going to be powerful I think we still need time to see if it will define the metagame.
The Pro Tour is a very, very different tournament than most "Open" tournaments so the Eldrazi decks and card choices were chosen for THIS PRO TOUR.
If Twin/Bloom was still legal, then just insert Twin/Bloom for every Eldrazi deck played and people would be spamming the same complaints about diversity.
Of course the netdeckers are going to build 4x Chalice, 4x Simian Spirit Guide decks in the next few months, but it just seems so horrible taking that to any other event than pro tour oath.
Give it sometime and hopefully the next announcement from WOTC for Modern will consist of alteast 3-4 card unbans and no bans.
Is anyone actually arguing for Bloom's unbanning? That was the best ban Wizards has executed in years, targeted against a confirmed turn four rule violator.
As for Twin, no one knows how the metagame would have played out with Twin in the picture, but we should all agree that undoing the Twin ban would be a disaster for the format. If Wizards is doubling down on a format strategy and vision (which, admittedly, they might not have...) then they need to stick to their Twin-ban guns. Reversing that would just plunge the format into more uncertainty and volatility, and that's not what Modern needs now.
Well I can see some reasoning behind this, in Legacy it's mostly fast combo decks that keep non interactive ramp decks(and aggro) in check. In Modern that doesn't work because of the turn 4 rule, but the turn 4 rule is also necessary since fair decks in Modern don't have the answers to deal with fast combo.
Takes affinity down a notch. Promotes control decks.
Also lets ban Might of Old Krosa.
Takes infect down a notch. Promotes control decks.
Also lets ban Eidolon of the great revel.
Takes Budn down a notch. Promotes control decks.
We going to go down this path?
I was about to go nuts on this post until I saw your last sentence. Cheers on that.
Unbans. New answers to check the new threats. That's what this format needs. EVENTUALLY everything is to strong when compared to something else. Power CAN NOT be measured in a vacuum. If the whole format was vanilla creatures and doom blades, eventually the most 'pushed' vanilla creatures 'break' that format.
Sure eye is better, but banning eye kills the deck and kills Tron at the same time. That is completely overboard.
Ban Eldrazi temple and you now have a glass cannon deck. Sure you could have an Eye, 3X mimic hand, but you only have 4 eyes in the entire deck. It would be no different then Infect or Grishoalbrand which can win turn 2 with perfect draws or turn 3 Karn in Tron.
Just because a deck CAN have a busted draw doesn't make the deck unfair. The issue Eldrazi has is that it has 8 lands that are busted. Drop that to 4 and the deck loses tons of consistency but probably can still survive.
Ban the broken card, it's simple. Eye is broken, and taking Tron down a notch really incentivizes playing control decks.
No it doesn't. Weakening--or even outright removing--Tron doesn't really do anything to solve the problems control has in the format.
Takes affinity down a notch. Promotes control decks.
Also lets ban Might of Old Krosa.
Takes infect down a notch. Promotes control decks.
Also lets ban Eidolon of the great revel.
Takes Budn down a notch. Promotes control decks.
We going to go down this path?
I was about to go nuts on this post until I saw your last sentence. Cheers on that.
Unbans. New answers to check the new threats. That's what this format needs. EVENTUALLY everything is to strong when compared to something else. Power CAN NOT be measured in a vacuum. If the whole format was vanilla creatures and doom blades, eventually the most 'pushed' vanilla creatures 'break' that format.
New answers are never going to enter this format, good reactive cards would warp standard too much.
Is anyone actually arguing for Bloom's unbanning? That was the best ban Wizards has executed in years, targeted against a confirmed turn four rule violator.
As for Twin, no one knows how the metagame would have played out with Twin in the picture, but we should all agree that undoing the Twin ban would be a disaster for the format. If Wizards is doubling down on a format strategy and vision (which, admittedly, they might not have...) then they need to stick to their Twin-ban guns. Reversing that would just plunge the format into more uncertainty and volatility, and that's not what Modern needs now.
I think if Eldrazi becomes as dominant as in this pro tour, wizards can see that as a plus as it has opened the door to a new refreshing deck. BUT, in order for it to not define the format they have to unban cards that are equally as enticing that get people wanting to build other decks.
My vote would be to unban Sword of the Meek, Ancestral Visions, Jace, the Mindsculptor, Stoneforge Mystic and Bloodbraid Elf.
If you ban Eye of Ugin or Eldrazi Temple, you have literally negated an entire set.
You might aswell ban Oath of the Gatewatch from the Modern Format!
So honestly, I stand behind WOTC banning of Twin and Bloom, but only if they give the banhammer a rest and start some relevant unbans asap!
Takes affinity down a notch. Promotes control decks.
Also lets ban Might of Old Krosa.
Takes infect down a notch. Promotes control decks.
Also lets ban Eidolon of the great revel.
Takes Budn down a notch. Promotes control decks.
We going to go down this path?
I was about to go nuts on this post until I saw your last sentence. Cheers on that.
Unbans. New answers to check the new threats. That's what this format needs. EVENTUALLY everything is to strong when compared to something else. Power CAN NOT be measured in a vacuum. If the whole format was vanilla creatures and doom blades, eventually the most 'pushed' vanilla creatures 'break' that format.
New answers are never going to enter this format, good reactive cards would warp standard too much.
I don't disagree - they need to change the way that cards can enter modern. Period.
New answers are never going to enter this format, good reactive cards would warp standard too much.
And cards like Siege Rhino, Jace Vryn's Prodigy, or the combination of tangolands+fetchlands don't warp Standard?
Though if they're so terrified of cards that were perfectly fine for years and years in Standard being Standard legal again, they could always just push the starting point back earlier so they can include those cards while not having the "downside" of making Standard less boring.
Takes affinity down a notch. Promotes control decks.
Also lets ban Might of Old Krosa.
Takes infect down a notch. Promotes control decks.
Also lets ban Eidolon of the great revel.
Takes Budn down a notch. Promotes control decks.
We going to go down this path?
I was about to go nuts on this post until I saw your last sentence. Cheers on that.
Unbans. New answers to check the new threats. That's what this format needs. EVENTUALLY everything is to strong when compared to something else. Power CAN NOT be measured in a vacuum. If the whole format was vanilla creatures and doom blades, eventually the most 'pushed' vanilla creatures 'break' that format.
New answers are never going to enter this format, good reactive cards would warp standard too much.
I don't disagree - they need to change the way that cards can enter modern. Period.
Takes affinity down a notch. Promotes control decks.
Also lets ban Might of Old Krosa.
Takes infect down a notch. Promotes control decks.
Also lets ban Eidolon of the great revel.
Takes Budn down a notch. Promotes control decks.
We going to go down this path?
I was about to go nuts on this post until I saw your last sentence. Cheers on that.
Unbans. New answers to check the new threats. That's what this format needs. EVENTUALLY everything is to strong when compared to something else. Power CAN NOT be measured in a vacuum. If the whole format was vanilla creatures and doom blades, eventually the most 'pushed' vanilla creatures 'break' that format.
New answers are never going to enter this format, good reactive cards would warp standard too much.
I don't disagree - they need to change the way that cards can enter modern. Period.
This is a good idea. Same way they impact Legacy.
All it takes is the opening of supplemental sets and then a quick banlist addendum to get rid of the hugely obvious outliers (True Name, Necropotence, etc.) and then you're able to introduce whatever you need without killing standard. Things like Toxic Deluge, Pernicious Deed, Vindicate, etc. would be HUGE for this format and controlling some of the brokenness, but would definitely warp standard.
If the metagame can't adapt by the end of March, then unban control cards. If some combination of AV/Jace/Sword can't fix it by the end of June, then we can talk July bannings.
Clearly they should unban AV when it's as safe an unban as GGT.
Ancestral Vision does nothing. It's basically GGT at this point. It's easy to stop with Chalice or processing, and its a horrific top deck.
Edit: Izzet can you show me a Sword of the MeekKrark-Clan Ironworks infinite deck. Or some sort of prototype idea? Im curious if its something to worry about.
Can AV be countered by Chalice of the Void? It doesn't have a converted mana cost of 0, it has no mana cost. I don't believe that Chalice of the Void can be set in a way that it stops a spell without a converted mana cost. Trinisphere would effect it but I'm not sure Chalice of the Void would.
Edit: apparently the converted mana cost of a spell with no cost is zero on the stack via rule 202.3a. This is consistent, I guess, with X being zero on the field of play and it's cast value on the stack. It could go the other way without an argument from me or a logical break however. I think there might be a break in the logic however in that when you may cast a spell without paying it's cost it's CMC is considered to be as printed on the card. That would make Ancestral Visions cast without a CMC, since it is cast without paying it's mana cost and it does in fact not have a CMC of zero on the card. It probably should not be countered by Chalice of the Void if you follow the logic out to the full extent.
The funny thing is that Modern's inception was about the same time they decided to start printing supplementary sets (e.g. Commander, Conspiracy, etc.) like crazy, resulting in a lot of new cards being created that never enter the format (for better or for worse).
ban eye of ugin
ban eldrazi temple
ban tron lands
ban mox opal
ban arcbound ravager
ban inkmoth nexus
ban might of old krosa
ban become immense
ban goblin guide
ban wild nacatl
ban deaths shadow
ban noble hierarch
ban tarmogoyf
ban goryos vengeance
ban my mother.. woops, that aint as broken as the rest are haha
ban modern? yes. gg. BAN
Because people are totally calling for everything to be banned. Reductio ad absurdum isn't going to do you much good if you're trying to make a point. Logical fallacies pretty much do the opposite.
I certainly don't want more bans. I'm definitely in the same camp as Kenshin and some others about various points in regards to not wanting more bans, thinking unbans would be more helpful, and thinking that we need an alternate way to get new cards into the format that doesn't include printing them in Standard. That seems to be the most logical way to "fix" the format.
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Some people are already tinkering with a legacy Eldrazi aggro list and its actually pretty damn good. Not as format warping at modern, but at an acceptable power level for legacy.
This deck is basically a legacy deck playing against modern decks.
The Pro Tour is a very, very different tournament than most "Open" tournaments so the Eldrazi decks and card choices were chosen for THIS PRO TOUR.
If Twin/Bloom was still legal, then just insert Twin/Bloom for every Eldrazi deck played and people would be spamming the same complaints about diversity.
Of course the netdeckers are going to build 4x Chalice, 4x Simian Spirit Guide decks in the next few months, but it just seems so horrible taking that to any other event than pro tour oath.
Give it sometime and hopefully the next announcement from WOTC for Modern will consist of alteast 3-4 card unbans and no bans.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
Without Eye of Ugin you can not have turn one 4 critter drops (endless & mimics - 8 copies of 2cc drop) which set the stage for possible TNS or Reality Smasher via Simian Spirit Guide on turn 2. It is possible to swing for a turn 2 kill depending on the number of mimics dropped on turn one.
Temple cannot do this alone nor does it allow for a plausible 4 creature drop on turn one. If WOTC is looking for the best target to ban AND keep this deck in tact I would think it would be the Eye. Meta may/will respond to this deck with profound artifact hate, but I am unsure this will be enough to stop a possible banning. LD will also be included for temple and eyes in the form of 2-4 ghost quarter main deck.
Sure eye is better, but banning eye kills the deck and kills Tron at the same time. That is completely overboard.
Ban Eldrazi temple and you now have a glass cannon deck. Sure you could have an Eye, 3X mimic hand, but you only have 4 eyes in the entire deck. It would be no different then Infect or Grishoalbrand which can win turn 2 with perfect draws or turn 3 Karn in Tron.
Just because a deck CAN have a busted draw doesn't make the deck unfair. The issue Eldrazi has is that it has 8 lands that are busted. Drop that to 4 and the deck loses tons of consistency but probably can still survive.
Spirits
Is anyone actually arguing for Bloom's unbanning? That was the best ban Wizards has executed in years, targeted against a confirmed turn four rule violator.
As for Twin, no one knows how the metagame would have played out with Twin in the picture, but we should all agree that undoing the Twin ban would be a disaster for the format. If Wizards is doubling down on a format strategy and vision (which, admittedly, they might not have...) then they need to stick to their Twin-ban guns. Reversing that would just plunge the format into more uncertainty and volatility, and that's not what Modern needs now.
Turn two thought knot seer after multiple Mimics is even more ridiculous of a scenario if temple is banned. It would require
Eye of Ugin
Mimic
Mimic
Thought knot seer
Spirit Guide
Land/Spirit guide
Six specific cards. We are now in magical Christmas land.
You can't freak out over best case scenarios for a deck. Eye of Ugin is fine without Eldrazi temple.
Ban the broken card, it's simple. Eye is broken, and taking Tron down a notch really incentivizes playing control decks.
Spirits
Well I can see some reasoning behind this, in Legacy it's mostly fast combo decks that keep non interactive ramp decks(and aggro) in check. In Modern that doesn't work because of the turn 4 rule, but the turn 4 rule is also necessary since fair decks in Modern don't have the answers to deal with fast combo.
Takes affinity down a notch. Promotes control decks.
Also lets ban Might of Old Krosa.
Takes infect down a notch. Promotes control decks.
Also lets ban Eidolon of the great revel.
Takes Budn down a notch. Promotes control decks.
We going to go down this path?
I was about to go nuts on this post until I saw your last sentence. Cheers on that.
Unbans. New answers to check the new threats. That's what this format needs. EVENTUALLY everything is to strong when compared to something else. Power CAN NOT be measured in a vacuum. If the whole format was vanilla creatures and doom blades, eventually the most 'pushed' vanilla creatures 'break' that format.
New answers are never going to enter this format, good reactive cards would warp standard too much.
My vote would be to unban Sword of the Meek, Ancestral Visions, Jace, the Mindsculptor, Stoneforge Mystic and Bloodbraid Elf.
If you ban Eye of Ugin or Eldrazi Temple, you have literally negated an entire set.
You might aswell ban Oath of the Gatewatch from the Modern Format!
So honestly, I stand behind WOTC banning of Twin and Bloom, but only if they give the banhammer a rest and start some relevant unbans asap!
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
That's my entire point. All of those cards are broken.
So is archbound ravaged.
And Mutagenic growth
And Tarmogoyf
Every Tier 1 modern deck is "broken" you can't just arbitrarily pick what you think is more broken then others.
I don't disagree - they need to change the way that cards can enter modern. Period.
Though if they're so terrified of cards that were perfectly fine for years and years in Standard being Standard legal again, they could always just push the starting point back earlier so they can include those cards while not having the "downside" of making Standard less boring.
This is a good idea. Same way they impact Legacy.
All it takes is the opening of supplemental sets and then a quick banlist addendum to get rid of the hugely obvious outliers (True Name, Necropotence, etc.) and then you're able to introduce whatever you need without killing standard. Things like Toxic Deluge, Pernicious Deed, Vindicate, etc. would be HUGE for this format and controlling some of the brokenness, but would definitely warp standard.
Can AV be countered by Chalice of the Void? It doesn't have a converted mana cost of 0, it has no mana cost. I don't believe that Chalice of the Void can be set in a way that it stops a spell without a converted mana cost. Trinisphere would effect it but I'm not sure Chalice of the Void would.
Edit: apparently the converted mana cost of a spell with no cost is zero on the stack via rule 202.3a. This is consistent, I guess, with X being zero on the field of play and it's cast value on the stack. It could go the other way without an argument from me or a logical break however. I think there might be a break in the logic however in that when you may cast a spell without paying it's cost it's CMC is considered to be as printed on the card. That would make Ancestral Visions cast without a CMC, since it is cast without paying it's mana cost and it does in fact not have a CMC of zero on the card. It probably should not be countered by Chalice of the Void if you follow the logic out to the full extent.
Because people are totally calling for everything to be banned. Reductio ad absurdum isn't going to do you much good if you're trying to make a point. Logical fallacies pretty much do the opposite.
I certainly don't want more bans. I'm definitely in the same camp as Kenshin and some others about various points in regards to not wanting more bans, thinking unbans would be more helpful, and thinking that we need an alternate way to get new cards into the format that doesn't include printing them in Standard. That seems to be the most logical way to "fix" the format.
WUBEsper ControlBUW
URStormRU
RGForest BelcherGR
To-Do List
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