Well, here's to praying that Tron sucks at the PT. If it wins or gets more than one copy in T8, I am selling the deck. And I will speak with my wallet. Cancelling my preorders, no more sealed productc ever, and I will never get another card before it rotates. Wizards doesn't want me to feel safe spending my money on their product? Fine, I just won't then
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Twin by nature of it's combo pieces stifles any attempt to interact with the combo through the sheer fact that exarch and pestermite attack the mana base of an opponent, and force all decks to take a huge tempo and board development loss in order to deal with the combo. This is especially backbreaking when Twin was on the play. In fact it should be quite telling that the best way to deal with twin is Abrupt Decay, an uncounterable spell. The only other main deck spell effective against Twin was Path, and white decks have been pushed out of the format because of Twin, despite path.
I feel that with the twin ban we will see more 3cmc+ spells that were unplayable main deck in the twin meta resurge into the limelight. One example being wraths, which are quite good against the new eldrazi deck.
Banning Twin was a good move for the overall health of Modern and opens up a lot of deck design/strategies. I believe other less combo oriented interactive decks will rise to take twin's place, despite all of the doomsayers. This the best thing for tune format since pod's ban.
Sorry for the disjointed feel of this response but I'm on my phone!
Even if all of that is true, which it might very well be, it does not detract from the fact that it sends a bad message about how Wizards handles top-tier decks. If you buy into a top-tier deck, this policy means you are also buying into a banlist chance. That is way less true in Legacy and, seemingly, was not supposed to be true in the nonrotating format that Modern was supposed to be. Even if the net result is a more diverse format, the additional net result will be widespread ban mania (moreso than usual) and a general fear of investing in top-tier decks that could get banned every year in the new virtual/artifical rotation cycle of banlist updates.
Goodnight sweet prince. The romance was a happy one but alas good things must cease to be.
I can't justify staying in Modern even after building Eldrazi. I can sell out my Modern staples for a sweet sum and go on a cruise. Back to The Source for me it appears, safety to be found in the stability of Legacy.
I am decidedly against this ban since I thought both decks were fine. Bloom I understand much more, but I was hoping they wouldn't relegate it to a ramp deck since with tron and Eldrazi we have enough of that IMO. Twin is WAY too conservative a ban for me, this officially lends credence to the just banning top decks thing. That's pretty much the only reason.
While I do like the trend toward standard over legacy, this is just kinda not okay. I do hope this opens up unbans for blue like AV, and I hope this helps people realize SFM is NOT coming off anytime soon. It's just too high power level for what they want for the format.
Does anyone know if this is good for blue moon? I don't know the deck well but I've always liked it and wouldn't mind shifting to it if it became a viable deck, especially since I own UR twin and the staples cross over.
Blue Moon is actually pretty bad against Tron. Here's why.
First, if it doesn't cast Blood Moon, the deck is toast. It has all the usual problems that control has versus Tron.
If it does cast Blood Moon, it has the problem that it doesn't have much of a clock to back it up. Blue Moon is reliant on color screwing the opponent with Blood Moon, and Blood Moon does little to color screw Tron. It slows it down, sure, but a Wurmcoil Engine can still be cast off of 6 lands and Karn off of 7. Blue Moon does have counterspells to stop them, but they generally run out of counterspells before Tron runs out of threats. If Blue Moon had a good clock to back this up, it would be fine, but the deck is very slow. Also, casting Blood Moon opens you up to the Tron opponent casting Oblivion Stone next turn, and then if you don't have a way to get rid of it they'll just use it and get rid of the Blood Moon that way.
Right now we are all salty, including ktk who doesnt let us go wild west on the forum.
I think Wizards is clever enough to realise we are no happy with flagships of our beloved format die back-to-back.
Im almost sure that Jace, the Mind Sculptor is comming off soon. It would be a really nice way to give control and midrange a chance to beat the Big Mana and Aggro overlords. By now Sword is a card that probably has a good grave and is buried way too deep. They just dont like the card. Fair enough. Although they HAVE to give us some new tools. Im not sure 30% of the fan base likes playing Eldrazi/Tron decks.
Right now i dont have confidence in this company. I will wait for Pro Tour for sure, because i still like Modern.
I'm kinda ignorant on how the meta works but can someone please explain to me how the twin banning helps tron? Was twin really that strong a matchup against tron?
I'm probably wrong here but it seems to me that trons worst matchup is extreamly agressive aggro/burn. I feel like twin held aggro decks back a bit forcing them to go a more midrange route. With twin gone I'm forseeing Jund/Zoo cutting some disruption in favor of pushing max aggro again which is probably bad news for tron.
So, you want more uninteractive decks? What is harder to interact with, Twin or Burn/Affinity/Infect?
You can't kill an Exarch with Bolt
But that brings me to my other point: I do disagree with the Twin ban, and think Exarch would have been a better ban if they were looking to nerf the Twin deck. Getting rid of Exarch means that they have to play the more vulnerable Pestermite, or splash for Village Bell-Ringer or Bounding Krasis, neither of which can tap lands (and Krasis still dies to Bolt). Maybe they just didn't want to risk looking dumb if the Exarch ban didn't have the intended effect of reducing Twin's meta share, like Jund when they banned BBE.
Their rationale for the Twin ban reinforces (in my mind, anyway) the unlikelihood of an eventual Stoneforge Mystic unban. The idea that otherwise decently performing "fair" decks are supplanted by a version of the same deck running a Twin package is analagous to something like GBx slotting in an SFM package, imho.
100%, one would be crazy to think any unbans of powerful cards are coming unless they require a deck be built around them. No 'packages' are being unleashed unless Wizards are liars, and thats not why Twin was banned.
Twin by nature of it's combo pieces stifles any attempt to interact with the combo through the sheer fact that exarch and pestermite attack the mana base of an opponent, and force all decks to take a huge tempo and board development loss in order to deal with the combo. This is especially backbreaking when Twin was on the play. In fact it should be quite telling that the best way to deal with twin is Abrupt Decay, an uncounterable spell. The only other main deck spell effective against Twin was Path, and white decks have been pushed out of the format because of Twin, despite path.
I feel that with the twin ban we will see more 3cmc+ spells that were unplayable main deck in the twin meta resurge into the limelight. One example being wraths, which are quite good against the new eldrazi deck.
Banning Twin was a good move for the overall health of Modern and opens up a lot of deck design/strategies. I believe other less combo oriented interactive decks will rise to take twin's place, despite all of the doomsayers. This the best thing for tune format since pod's ban.
Sorry for the disjointed feel of this response but I'm on my phone!
Even if all of that is true, which it might very well be, it does not detract from the fact that it sends a bad message about how Wizards handles top-tier decks. If you buy into a top-tier deck, this policy means you are also buying into a banlist chance. That is way less true in Legacy and, seemingly, was not supposed to be true in the nonrotating format that Modern was supposed to be. Even if the net result is a more diverse format, the additional net result will be widespread ban mania (moreso than usual) and a general fear of investing in top-tier decks that could get banned every year in the new virtual/artifical rotation cycle of banlist updates.
This is definitely a fair assessment and a real problem. However I will say that I think the Twin ban is a unique case that won't be like any future bans. Twin is a combo that warped modern deck design around itself. I do not think there are many decks in modern that have that same problem, or will.
Counterspell is probably getting printed very soon in Standard. As with the PoD banning, Collected Company was printed shortly after as a pseudo-replacement.
There was a quote, but unfortunately I can't find it. It was either by Mark Rosewater or Aaron Forsythe, but the quote stated that there was potential for Counterspell to be reprinted in Standard, as long as it was in the right environment. Whelp, here's hoping that it does get reprinted soon, because that would be the new police card for the format with Twin out of the picture, and that would especially keep Tron in check, preventing it from becoming the baddest most unstoppable deck in the format, which would subsequently incur a swift banning to one of its pieces. I don't want to see it banned. Tron is the only format that people can play with cool cards like Karn and Ugin and big Eldrazi. I want that deck to stay, but it needs to be policed. If it's not policed, something's gunna get banned from it, and then actual riots will start.
Counterspell seems like a good police card to enter the format.
Twin made the format a lot more interactive. The question deck builders had to start with a lot of the time was: "can your deck answer a 3 mana creature with a 4 mana enchantment on it, at instant speed? If not, go home and add some more cards to your deck that care about what your opponent is doing."
And now that is lost.
I seriously hope modern doesn't just devolve into an uninteractive turn 3 infect/affinity/burn + tron format.
Coming January 2017:
Inkmoth Nexus is banned.
Lightning Bolt is banned.
Urza's Tower is banned.
Eldrazi Temple is banned.
I say that tongue-in-cheek, but I wouldn't be surprised at this point if my joke ends up being at least 1/4 true.
I *was* building a Modern deck, slowly. I figured Twin was a good investment because it's a pillar of the format and will always be viable forever. Guess not.
I'll keep playing limited, but my aborted entry into constructed Magic is over. I won't be trying again.
I hope they ban Force of Will from Legacy next. That seems fair, to spread around the misery.
Until then I am going to play the ***** out of Bogles; probably moving the 4 Stony Silence to the mainboard eventually. (Good against Tron...check, good against Affinity the next deck to get banned...check, good against Spellskite/Engineered Explosives...check)
UW or UWR flash for me. Mainly because it's a good shell for Celestial Flare which is amazing against Bogles and big Eldrazi.
I think Exarch was a better ban if they wanted to discourage (but not eliminate) twin strategies.
Exarch survives bolt, which is pretty relevant to its power level. Forcing twin decks to use less combo pieces, and the more vulnerable ones would likely go a long way to reducing splinter twin's prevalence in the metagame without completely eliminating it.
The ban is going to do exactly what Wotc wants in the coming months. We are going to see different decks winning and in top 8s. Those with local metas dominated by Twin now will have a refreshing change.
Everyone thinks this is the death of blue decks, I think just the opposite. Now that Twin is gone, other blue decks should pop up. Maybe a resurgence of Blue Moon or Jeskai midrange/control decks. Maybe something that has not even bee seen before. Time will tell.
The bans are going to give decks like Eldrazi (whatever build), Lantern control, and some lesser played decks a chance to make it to top tables.
I think Scapesift may be the deck that gets the biggest boost, but again we will see.
I am one who is happy Wotc is not treating Modern like other older formats so this announcement is fine in my eyes. It wont kill the format, and with the recent proxy announcement Legacy and Vintage events are going to be farther and fewer between, leaving Modern as the go to format in most areas.
I'm a long time lurker and posts like these make it look you don't play Modern at all. Playing other U decks was only really possible because they beat Twin; there's so little reason to play them in a big mana based format. I'm not sure what you want Magic to look like besides removing the color blue. Also, WotC just posted that they only care about proxies in sanctioned events.
Not that it would actually ever happen, but just to break up the negativity of this thread, wouldn't it be the greatest thing ever if next January they just unbanned a bunch of stuff simultaneously in a once-a-decade unbanning Christmas as their way to shake things up? That'd be fun.
But yeah. Twin and Bloom aside the lack of unbannings kinda leaves me feeling a tad dystopian about the whole situation as well.
As a Twin player, I understand their mentality completely. I don't like it, but they're exactly right. Why would I play a UR control or tempo shell, when I could just play Twin? Why play Grixis control when I could just play Grixis Twin? Why play Jeskai Tempo when I could play Jeskai Twin? It DOES limit the strategy choices for anything running blue and red as primary colors, because it's usually just objectively better to run Twin than whatever other alternative wincon. Now I just have to search out and see what I want to move my Twin deck into. The UR shell is now open to a lot more options, even if those options aren't as good or powerful.
Although the first thing I might do is just try and play it with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. LOL. Then move into Snap/Resto/Geist midrange.
When the format first started I thought to myself there is absolutely no way you can have a tier1 combo in the format without bad things happening. When u/x turns into u/x/twin to compete you know there's issues, and in that light the bans do make sense.
Modern does not have the catch-all answers, so for as long as there is no cs or FoW, the ultimate fate of all good combos will be a ban. With nothing to really do policing (and no, combo-infused decks cannot and should not fit that role), it seems that tron and infect kills will be on the chopping block next.
Personally, I would have preferred if they got it over with in one pass. Ban inkmoth, one of the urzatron lands, goryo's, maybe atarka's command and see what the format would look like after. If we end up flinging the proverbial siege rhinos at each other for a while, then so be it. Unban Jace, AV, BBE, SFM after that and see how things develop. Who knows, maybe it'll turn into a decent format once the dust settles! Or at least there will be no more F6 signs to watch on stream
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G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G UG Tishana, Voice of Thunder GU UBW Sen Triplets WBU WUBGAtraxa, Praetors' Voice GBUW WUBRGJodah, Archmage Eternal GRBUW GWR Mayael the Anima RWG RWB Edgar Markov BWR WG Gaddok Teeg GW W Oketra the True W
--- My Decklist Folder
The ban is going to do exactly what Wotc wants in the coming months. We are going to see different decks winning and in top 8s. Those with local metas dominated by Twin now will have a refreshing change.
Everyone thinks this is the death of blue decks, I think just the opposite. Now that Twin is gone, other blue decks should pop up. Maybe a resurgence of Blue Moon or Jeskai midrange/control decks. Maybe something that has not even bee seen before. Time will tell.
The bans are going to give decks like Eldrazi (whatever build), Lantern control, and some lesser played decks a chance to make it to top tables.
I think Scapesift may be the deck that gets the biggest boost, but again we will see.
I am one who is happy Wotc is not treating Modern like other older formats so this announcement is fine in my eyes. It wont kill the format, and with the recent proxy announcement Legacy and Vintage events are going to be farther and fewer between, leaving Modern as the go to format in most areas.
I'm a long time lurker and posts like these make it look you don't play Modern at all. Playing other U decks was only really possible because they beat Twin; there's so little reason to play them in a big mana based format. I'm not sure what you want Magic to look like besides removing the color blue. Also, WotC just posted that they only care about proxies in sanctioned events.
If banning twin makes the color blue not viable I think that is an indication of a much bigger problem in modern. Thankfully I'm very sure this is not the case.
There was a quote, but unfortunately I can't find it. It was either by Mark Rosewater or Aaron Forsythe, but the quote stated that there was potential for Counterspell to be reprinted in Standard, as long as it was in the right environment. Whelp, here's hoping that it does get reprinted soon, because that would be the new police card for the format with Twin out of the picture, and that would especially keep Tron in check, preventing it from becoming the baddest most unstoppable deck in the format, which would subsequently incur a swift banning to one of its pieces. I don't want to see it banned. Tron is the only format that people can play with cool cards like Karn and Ugin and big Eldrazi. I want that deck to stay, but it needs to be policed. If it's not policed, something's gunna get banned from it, and then actual riots will start.
Counterspell seems like a good police card to enter the format.
He has since retracted that and said Counterspell is extremely unlikely.
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Even if all of that is true, which it might very well be, it does not detract from the fact that it sends a bad message about how Wizards handles top-tier decks. If you buy into a top-tier deck, this policy means you are also buying into a banlist chance. That is way less true in Legacy and, seemingly, was not supposed to be true in the nonrotating format that Modern was supposed to be. Even if the net result is a more diverse format, the additional net result will be widespread ban mania (moreso than usual) and a general fear of investing in top-tier decks that could get banned every year in the new virtual/artifical rotation cycle of banlist updates.
I can't justify staying in Modern even after building Eldrazi. I can sell out my Modern staples for a sweet sum and go on a cruise. Back to The Source for me it appears, safety to be found in the stability of Legacy.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
First, if it doesn't cast Blood Moon, the deck is toast. It has all the usual problems that control has versus Tron.
If it does cast Blood Moon, it has the problem that it doesn't have much of a clock to back it up. Blue Moon is reliant on color screwing the opponent with Blood Moon, and Blood Moon does little to color screw Tron. It slows it down, sure, but a Wurmcoil Engine can still be cast off of 6 lands and Karn off of 7. Blue Moon does have counterspells to stop them, but they generally run out of counterspells before Tron runs out of threats. If Blue Moon had a good clock to back this up, it would be fine, but the deck is very slow. Also, casting Blood Moon opens you up to the Tron opponent casting Oblivion Stone next turn, and then if you don't have a way to get rid of it they'll just use it and get rid of the Blood Moon that way.
I think Wizards is clever enough to realise we are no happy with flagships of our beloved format die back-to-back.
Im almost sure that Jace, the Mind Sculptor is comming off soon. It would be a really nice way to give control and midrange a chance to beat the Big Mana and Aggro overlords. By now Sword is a card that probably has a good grave and is buried way too deep. They just dont like the card. Fair enough. Although they HAVE to give us some new tools. Im not sure 30% of the fan base likes playing Eldrazi/Tron decks.
Right now i dont have confidence in this company. I will wait for Pro Tour for sure, because i still like Modern.
Is an emergency unban or ban off the table???
I'm probably wrong here but it seems to me that trons worst matchup is extreamly agressive aggro/burn. I feel like twin held aggro decks back a bit forcing them to go a more midrange route. With twin gone I'm forseeing Jund/Zoo cutting some disruption in favor of pushing max aggro again which is probably bad news for tron.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
But that brings me to my other point: I do disagree with the Twin ban, and think Exarch would have been a better ban if they were looking to nerf the Twin deck. Getting rid of Exarch means that they have to play the more vulnerable Pestermite, or splash for Village Bell-Ringer or Bounding Krasis, neither of which can tap lands (and Krasis still dies to Bolt). Maybe they just didn't want to risk looking dumb if the Exarch ban didn't have the intended effect of reducing Twin's meta share, like Jund when they banned BBE.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
CG
Spirits
This is definitely a fair assessment and a real problem. However I will say that I think the Twin ban is a unique case that won't be like any future bans. Twin is a combo that warped modern deck design around itself. I do not think there are many decks in modern that have that same problem, or will.
There was a quote, but unfortunately I can't find it. It was either by Mark Rosewater or Aaron Forsythe, but the quote stated that there was potential for Counterspell to be reprinted in Standard, as long as it was in the right environment. Whelp, here's hoping that it does get reprinted soon, because that would be the new police card for the format with Twin out of the picture, and that would especially keep Tron in check, preventing it from becoming the baddest most unstoppable deck in the format, which would subsequently incur a swift banning to one of its pieces. I don't want to see it banned. Tron is the only format that people can play with cool cards like Karn and Ugin and big Eldrazi. I want that deck to stay, but it needs to be policed. If it's not policed, something's gunna get banned from it, and then actual riots will start.
Counterspell seems like a good police card to enter the format.
SFM unban hope is still misguided, but winning the game immediately with a combo is fundamentally different from fetching an equipment.
That's the problem with reductionism: it confuses an Archimedean pose that ignores context for a bird's eye view of Truth.
Coming January 2017:
Inkmoth Nexus is banned.
Lightning Bolt is banned.
Urza's Tower is banned.
Eldrazi Temple is banned.
I say that tongue-in-cheek, but I wouldn't be surprised at this point if my joke ends up being at least 1/4 true.
I *was* building a Modern deck, slowly. I figured Twin was a good investment because it's a pillar of the format and will always be viable forever. Guess not.
I'll keep playing limited, but my aborted entry into constructed Magic is over. I won't be trying again.
I hope they ban Force of Will from Legacy next. That seems fair, to spread around the misery.
UW or UWR flash for me. Mainly because it's a good shell for Celestial Flare which is amazing against Bogles and big Eldrazi.
Exarch survives bolt, which is pretty relevant to its power level. Forcing twin decks to use less combo pieces, and the more vulnerable ones would likely go a long way to reducing splinter twin's prevalence in the metagame without completely eliminating it.
I'm a long time lurker and posts like these make it look you don't play Modern at all. Playing other U decks was only really possible because they beat Twin; there's so little reason to play them in a big mana based format. I'm not sure what you want Magic to look like besides removing the color blue. Also, WotC just posted that they only care about proxies in sanctioned events.
But yeah. Twin and Bloom aside the lack of unbannings kinda leaves me feeling a tad dystopian about the whole situation as well.
Although the first thing I might do is just try and play it with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. LOL. Then move into Snap/Resto/Geist midrange.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I rather have no PT than an increasing ban list...
Legacy: UWR Miracles [https://deckstats.net/decks/44442/1092831-uwr-miracles-2]
Modern does not have the catch-all answers, so for as long as there is no cs or FoW, the ultimate fate of all good combos will be a ban. With nothing to really do policing (and no, combo-infused decks cannot and should not fit that role), it seems that tron and infect kills will be on the chopping block next.
Personally, I would have preferred if they got it over with in one pass. Ban inkmoth, one of the urzatron lands, goryo's, maybe atarka's command and see what the format would look like after. If we end up flinging the proverbial siege rhinos at each other for a while, then so be it. Unban Jace, AV, BBE, SFM after that and see how things develop. Who knows, maybe it'll turn into a decent format once the dust settles! Or at least there will be no more F6 signs to watch on stream
UG Tishana, Voice of Thunder GU
UBW Sen Triplets WBU
WUBGAtraxa, Praetors' Voice GBUW
WUBRGJodah, Archmage Eternal GRBUW
GWR Mayael the Anima RWG
RWB Edgar Markov BWR
WG Gaddok Teeg GW
W Oketra the True W
---
My Decklist Folder
If banning twin makes the color blue not viable I think that is an indication of a much bigger problem in modern. Thankfully I'm very sure this is not the case.
He has since retracted that and said Counterspell is extremely unlikely.