I used to play Shaymora in vintage, a deck that plays 4 Commandeers so I'm not ruling it out, but you need insane card advantage to fuel it. In Shaymora, that CA was Mystic Remora and the ability to steal your opponents Ancestral Recall as well as play your own. I'm not sure whether or not the CA of 4 Squadron Hawks is enough. Are there more options that provide actual CA? Don't forget you are also opening up for Wasteland Stranglers and Blight Herders with the double exile.
You get your card advantage from wraths, the rest is virtual advantage. Lingering Souls, the hideaway land, Ensnaring Bridge, and so on. You would actively want to have 0 cards in hand under such a scenario.
I just saw an article on MTGGoldfish breaking down the numbers of the pro tour and the extreme eldrazi dominance. The takeaway is that it's so good because no decks really have a positive matchup against them -- besides niche prison decks that include Blood Moon and Ghostly Prison. This sounds intriguing to me and is something I would definitly want to look into and test. So I ask 2 questions:
1. Does anyone have a list of an Eldrazi beating prison deck.
2. What other decks beat Eldrazi (or even have a 50/50 MU like Affinity)
Thanks guys
Merged with the "Beating B/x Eldrazi" thread as it is more appropriate than creating a duplicate thread for the topic.
- Torpf
Honestly RW land destruction/lock down deck is probably in the best position to beat this deck. It has access to boom // bust, Blood Moon, Pyroclasm, Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, and Ghostly Prison. It also can use Simian Spirit Guide too speed it's self up. Red also has a lot of other good LD spells. Plus all the white wraths and Ajani Vengeant. I am sure I am missing something else but that is just what's off the top my head.
Lol, the red black land destruction deck with rain of tears, boom burst, and goblin dark dwellers I faced on cockatrice today. But seriously, main decks and sideboards are going to have to change and be experimented with for awhile before we know what decks will have a true 50/50 match up with Eldrazi. The twin ban warped the format towards hyper linear strategies, so it wasn't like a lot of interaction heavy decks were even around to challenge Eldrazi. I've had some loses to grixis and jeskai control, chord combo has also taken me down, abzan company as well has shown to have game against Eldrazi, as well as affinity as you mentioned. Prison decks outside of Lantern control probably aren't very good tbh, providing a positive match up against Eldrazi but losing to everything else seems bad. I'm psyched to see what people come up with.
Honestly RW land destruction/lock down deck is probably in the best position to beat this deck. It has access to boom // bust, Blood Moon, Pyroclasm, Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, and Ghostly Prison. It also can use Simian Spirit Guide too speed it's self up. Red also has a lot of other good LD spells. Plus all the white wraths and Ajani Vengeant. I am sure I am missing something else but that is just what's off the top my head.
What about a RW Humans deck. The other way to beat the Eldrazies is to play an equivalently large creature so they can't attack through it.
as a starting point. You could fill the rest of it with hatebear cards, but playing a 5/x first striker turn 2 or 3 might be a good thing to look into.
I remember back when Demannic liked playing BW Martyr Proc online. Sure, Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim is surprisingly bad against them (she's first to die to Dismember--if she survives to trade with an Eldrazi, she's already done her job), but a few testing games later, I'm confident that Martyr Proc has a positive matchup against Aggro Eldrazi. (Turn 1-2 Chalice of the Void probably does suck, though, and force Martyr Proc to lean heavily on Proclamation of Rebirth and Emeria, and Martyr Proc needs to maindeck Wraths or UR Eldrazi will assemble fatties + Drowner of Hope.)
For the same reasons, I believe that the other anti-aggro deck, WU Emeria Sun Titan, also has a positive matchup against Aggro Eldrazi.
From my testing of Blood Moon (in Blue Moon) against them, all anti-Eldrazi decks need swift enough clocks and/or plentiful ways to deal with creatures or pure LD and land hosing are not enough.
There's probably a reason why several high-performing Jund decks in the Pro Tour maindecked 1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, though--pair him with enough removal and he runs away with the game and can't be profitably Dismembered. I suspect Polukranos, World Eater is even better against Eldrazi because it trades with Reality Smasher by itself and pumps out of Dismember range (and kills Eldrazi Mimic) all by itself.
There are also probably anti-Eldrazi reasons why I saw random Hissing Quagmires in the Pro Tour deck lists.
Most prison cards are good against them just not sure how good prison decks are against the rest of the field. 8 Rack has a really good matchup with them probably 60/40 if I had to put a number on it.
You beat me to it. Last night I was tweaking my Bant Thune Chord deck and I've now trimmed it to GW as Nest is great when you block a 5/5 Endless One, get 5 insect tokens which take out the rest of their army on the next swing. (Including a Reality smasher.) That paired with Torpor orb to stop mimic copy and TKS strip effects slowed the game down greatly... which is what was needed. I didn't win that game (only had one nest in the deck last night), but I knew the direction I needed to go.
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MTG Junky... First packs being a starter of each 4th Edition and Ice Age. Good Grief, I've been playing since 1995? Where does the time go!
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this is mtgs, where occam's razor is so blunt it can't cut jello any more.
8Rack was one of the first decks that came to mind when all the talk of Ensnaring Bridge started.
This one is actually fairly good suggestion although turn 1 Chalice for 1 can still be a big problem casing you to be unable to use many discard spells, The Rack and Shrieking Affliction (your win cons) unable to play. This can dealt with to some extend if you're on the play and can take away Chalice before they can play it but if you're on the draw there is nothing you can do about it.
I can play around that no prob. Bridge + Bitterblossom. My fliers can attack but your guys can't. Throw in Liliana to say hi too.
I was testing out the UR Eldrazi list from the PT, and I just got destroyed by 8rack. The UR and Colorless versions seems like they would have problems with it. The BW Processor version has a better matchup there just because out of the SB they bring in disenchants and have turn 1 discard as well as ways to shut raven's crime.
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Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
You beat me to it. Last night I was tweaking my Bant Thune Chord deck and I've now trimmed it to GW as Nest is great when you block a 5/5 Endless One, get 5 insect tokens which take out the rest of their army on the next swing. (Including a Reality smasher.) That paired with Torpor orb to stop mimic copy and TKS strip effects slowed the game down greatly... which is what was needed. I didn't win that game (only had one nest in the deck last night), but I knew the direction I needed to go.
If your running bant it maybe worth testing Glare of Subdual glare is a really good card people have forgotten about over the years.
8Rack was one of the first decks that came to mind when all the talk of Ensnaring Bridge started.
This one is actually fairly good suggestion although turn 1 Chalice for 1 can still be a big problem casing you to be unable to use many discard spells, The Rack and Shrieking Affliction (your win cons) unable to play. This can dealt with to some extend if you're on the play and can take away Chalice before they can play it but if you're on the draw there is nothing you can do about it.
I was trying 8 rack out, and found this out the hard way. Also even if you are on the play it's pretty annoying if they top deck chalice just after looking at their hand. However, if they don't have their chalice 8 rack can pack quite a pounding to the deck. The other issue I run into is dealing with explosive openers and not drawing into my bridge or my bridge getting Thought-Knot Seered. That's what I noticed the match-up came down too.
Side Note 1: Smallpox is pretty good. Especially on the play.
Side Note 2: Wrench Mind not so good with main deck artifacts.
You beat me to it. Last night I was tweaking my Bant Thune Chord deck and I've now trimmed it to GW as Nest is great when you block a 5/5 Endless One, get 5 insect tokens which take out the rest of their army on the next swing. (Including a Reality smasher.) That paired with Torpor orb to stop mimic copy and TKS strip effects slowed the game down greatly... which is what was needed. I didn't win that game (only had one nest in the deck last night), but I knew the direction I needed to go.
If your running bant it maybe worth testing Glare of Subdual glare is a really good card people have forgotten about over the years.
WOw I haven't thought about GLare in years. Thanks for reminding me! Maybe this in a hexproof / worship shell?
How bad of a choice is Burn? Eldrazi is fast, I know that, but it can't be Burn fast?
If you play more 2 cmc spells like boros charm it's better. It's fine if they don't land a chalice for one. Also burns creatures are kinda under whelming and tend lose combat or not come close to outracing it. Unless you have plenty of burn to back them up. It also can be faster than burn faster it depends on their hand.
Everyone forgetting most of these eldrazi depends on come into play abilities? Everyone forgetting about cards like Hushwing Gryff and Torpor Orb?
Also, many decks are already adjusting to the weaknesses of Eldrazi. I believe Eldrazi control in the long term is more viable, as it can go the long game. Where as a single pyroclasm easily deals with multiple x/2s and x/1s... Then there's cards like Forked Bolt, Imposing Sovereign, Night's Betrayal, Bile Blight, Echoing Truth, etc.... Reality Smasher? Let's say this... pay 4 life, dismember Smasher, discard Big Game Hunter and Madness to kill another power 4 or greater. Or let's get even dirtier, Loxodon Smiters, Obstinate Baloths, and the many other if you discard to an opponent's ability X happens. Then there's Madness coming back in Shadows, which makes the Eldrazi weaker yet....
There's the new bolt... So let's cast this spell, discard two bolts, lava axe a creature and madness bolt 2 more creatures or bolt to the face.
Or let's get dirtier yet.... Hushwing Gryff is flash... flash it in, mimics get nothing, thought knot seer does nothing, and kill TNS and draw a card from killing it.
Let's get into other weaknesses of Eldrazi, and I know from experience as having played the deck for about a month now...
It has an even matchup against Tron. It can lose to infect. Affinity can get the worse nut draw and win by pure life gain. It dies to control. Jund can do a number on it by chaining Fulminator Mages and K Kommand. Surgical Extraction can be played in any sideboard and I highly recommend it due to Goryo's Veangeance running around. Ghost Quarter is excellent. Ensnaring Bridge is difficult to deal with. Supreme Verdict, Damnation, Wrath of God, and other 4 mana wraths are good. Black Sun's Zenith for 1 can close out games. I play Tron, Tron is my cup of tea, and has been for like... 7 years now. Tron can beat Eldrazi, it's an even matchup.
Bonfire of the Damned is a damned good card, as is Terminus.
Seems everyone is also forgetting about Painter's Servant. It's a good way to turn off all the Eldrazi decks and even Tron. If you're playing Merfolk, you just name red and go about your merry way. If you're playing with the fish you're also probably playing with Kira.. Then there's always Sower of Temptation too... Maybe even playing control you might be running Restoration Angel too. Vedalken Shackles anyone?
The point I'm making is that it's too early from a single tournament that wasn't prepared for Eldrazi. There's ways to deal with it, and I have just named a few ways to do so.. I remember last year when people were trying to break Glittering Wish and Jeskai Ascendancy combo which by the way.... Also did crazy stupid things early on until people figured out how to beat it and nobody is calling for Glittering Wish as a foul.
A T2-3 Blood Moon can close a game fast before the Eldrazi player can rally. Blue Moon can actually make an Eldrazi deck stumble enough to allow you to take the game. Lantern Control can take Eldrazi out before they can do anything too dumb....
Also cards like Kitchen Finks also deals with the Eldrazi issue. Hornet Nest is simply.... funny
You beat me to it. Last night I was tweaking my Bant Thune Chord deck and I've now trimmed it to GW as Nest is great when you block a 5/5 Endless One, get 5 insect tokens which take out the rest of their army on the next swing. (Including a Reality smasher.) That paired with Torpor orb to stop mimic copy and TKS strip effects slowed the game down greatly... which is what was needed. I didn't win that game (only had one nest in the deck last night), but I knew the direction I needed to go.
If your running bant it maybe worth testing Glare of Subdual glare is a really good card people have forgotten about over the years.
WOw I haven't thought about GLare in years. Thanks for reminding me! Maybe this in a hexproof / worship shell?
That's the deck I'm working on in theory it could be good. Glare of Subdual was a feared card at one time people have just forgotten about it and young players never had to play against it. Green White tokens is an option too.
Everyone forgetting most of these eldrazi depends on come into play abilities? Everyone forgetting about cards like Hushwing Gryff and Torpor Orb?
Also, many decks are already adjusting to the weaknesses of Eldrazi. I believe Eldrazi control in the long term is more viable, as it can go the long game. Where as a single pyroclasm easily deals with multiple x/2s and x/1s... Then there's cards like Forked Bolt, Imposing Sovereign, Night's Betrayal, Bile Blight, Echoing Truth, etc.... Reality Smasher? Let's say this... pay 4 life, dismember Smasher, discard Big Game Hunter and Madness to kill another power 4 or greater. Or let's get even dirtier, Loxodon Smiters, Obstinate Baloths, and the many other if you discard to an opponent's ability X happens. Then there's Madness coming back in Shadows, which makes the Eldrazi weaker yet....
There's the new bolt... So let's cast this spell, discard two bolts, lava axe a creature and madness bolt 2 more creatures or bolt to the face.
Or let's get dirtier yet.... Hushwing Gryff is flash... flash it in, mimics get nothing, thought knot seer does nothing, and kill TNS and draw a card from killing it.
Let's get into other weaknesses of Eldrazi, and I know from experience as having played the deck for about a month now...
It has an even matchup against Tron. It can lose to infect. Affinity can get the worse nut draw and win by pure life gain. It dies to control. Jund can do a number on it by chaining Fulminator Mages and K Kommand. Surgical Extraction can be played in any sideboard and I highly recommend it due to Goryo's Veangeance running around. Ghost Quarter is excellent. Ensnaring Bridge is difficult to deal with. Supreme Verdict, Damnation, Wrath of God, and other 4 mana wraths are good. Black Sun's Zenith for 1 can close out games. I play Tron, Tron is my cup of tea, and has been for like... 7 years now. Tron can beat Eldrazi, it's an even matchup.
Bonfire of the Damned is a damned good card, as is Terminus.
Seems everyone is also forgetting about Painter's Servant. It's a good way to turn off all the Eldrazi decks and even Tron. If you're playing Merfolk, you just name red and go about your merry way. If you're playing with the fish you're also probably playing with Kira.. Then there's always Sower of Temptation too... Maybe even playing control you might be running Restoration Angel too. Vedalken Shackles anyone?
The point I'm making is that it's too early from a single tournament that wasn't prepared for Eldrazi. There's ways to deal with it, and I have just named a few ways to do so.. I remember last year when people were trying to break Glittering Wish and Jeskai Ascendancy combo which by the way.... Also did crazy stupid things early on until people figured out how to beat it and nobody is calling for Glittering Wish as a foul.
A T2-3 Blood Moon can close a game fast before the Eldrazi player can rally. Blue Moon can actually make an Eldrazi deck stumble enough to allow you to take the game. Lantern Control can take Eldrazi out before they can do anything too dumb....
Also cards like Kitchen Finks also deals with the Eldrazi issue. Hornet Nest is simply.... funny
Statements like these make me honestly think you never actually playtested with or against the variety of Eldrazi decks or had bad opponents/testing partners. Nobody is "forgetting" about your oh so obvious answers like Hushwing Gryff or Painter Servant. Have you seen the price of servants lately? The point is, those answers really do not cut it, as you are absolutely required to have them on your early hand and even then your 3cmc "answer" is probably too late or just gets exiled by turn 2 thought knot seer before you can do anything about it (Thought-Knot Seer does also not trigger anti-discard mechanics like Loxodon Smiter). Or you just get attacked for 15 after you played your Kitchen Finks that "deals with the issue". Painter Servant is not to Eldrazi what Stony Silence or Kataki, War's Wage is to Affinity, it does not shut down the deck, it merely slows them and is easily removed - artifacts of any kind are not a solution against GR Eldrazi, which can easily slot lots of artifact destruction and by the way dominates tron. The only decks that can sort of play this guy are those who can tutor for it reliably and just need a bit of time for their own win on the spot (Kiki-Chord, Angel-Chord, Abzan Company).
With my >100 test games with specific hate cards against Eldrazi decks I can tell you that various lists have no problem of winning against Blood Moon (except for a RW moon list that can play T2 Simian Spirit Guide into moon) , multiple Ghost Quarters or Fulminator Mages as they often slow yourself about as much as you slow Eldrazi. Wrath effects work if you can survive long enough and still have it on T4, which is actually quite hard.
Lantern just folds to Chalice of the Void as well as Infect.
As it stands, I do not see any sort of "tweak" or silver bullets that would help the average deck to consistently beat Eldrazi, you will require specific prison or denial strategies (yay fun meta) and even then it will probably be not as lopsided as Affinity vs. Merfolk for example or lose to basically the rest of the field.
I concluded that as well from just doing the math on several of the plays eldrazi can pull off with Ugin and Temple. There's just no counter to a deck that can bring out that much power and utility so hard and fast. If the mana lands were more 1.5 mana instead of 2 mana we'd be in a better position. BW tokens can hold out against eldrazi as well, but even that deck can't out grind them even with a mass of fliers on the field since they just force so many chump blocks against superior creatures. Ghostly prison kind of works against them as they have to use their eldrazi specific lands to pay the tax.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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You get your card advantage from wraths, the rest is virtual advantage. Lingering Souls, the hideaway land, Ensnaring Bridge, and so on. You would actively want to have 0 cards in hand under such a scenario.
1. Does anyone have a list of an Eldrazi beating prison deck.
2. What other decks beat Eldrazi (or even have a 50/50 MU like Affinity)
Thanks guys
Merged with the "Beating B/x Eldrazi" thread as it is more appropriate than creating a duplicate thread for the topic.
- Torpf
Modern
UBR Grixis Control
U Merfolk
Pauper
U Mono U Delver
Ancestral Visions is freed
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
What about a RW Humans deck. The other way to beat the Eldrazies is to play an equivalently large creature so they can't attack through it.
Maybe something like
as a starting point. You could fill the rest of it with hatebear cards, but playing a 5/x first striker turn 2 or 3 might be a good thing to look into.
For the same reasons, I believe that the other anti-aggro deck, WU Emeria Sun Titan, also has a positive matchup against Aggro Eldrazi.
From my testing of Blood Moon (in Blue Moon) against them, all anti-Eldrazi decks need swift enough clocks and/or plentiful ways to deal with creatures or pure LD and land hosing are not enough.
There's probably a reason why several high-performing Jund decks in the Pro Tour maindecked 1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, though--pair him with enough removal and he runs away with the game and can't be profitably Dismembered. I suspect Polukranos, World Eater is even better against Eldrazi because it trades with Reality Smasher by itself and pumps out of Dismember range (and kills Eldrazi Mimic) all by itself.
There are also probably anti-Eldrazi reasons why I saw random Hissing Quagmires in the Pro Tour deck lists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awannXC4-eQ
Lantern control and affinity (because it supports painters better than other decks) look good.
On another note, UW Control archetypes using spells like rule of law, eidolon of rhetoric or etherswon canonist seem good. It can run Spreading Seas or Sea's Claim for the land hate and catch all Detention Spheres or even run some annoying Meddling Mages in the SB.
BGW ABZAN WGB
BGR JUND RGB
You beat me to it. Last night I was tweaking my Bant Thune Chord deck and I've now trimmed it to GW as Nest is great when you block a 5/5 Endless One, get 5 insect tokens which take out the rest of their army on the next swing. (Including a Reality smasher.) That paired with Torpor orb to stop mimic copy and TKS strip effects slowed the game down greatly... which is what was needed. I didn't win that game (only had one nest in the deck last night), but I knew the direction I needed to go.
I can play around that no prob. Bridge + Bitterblossom. My fliers can attack but your guys can't. Throw in Liliana to say hi too.
I was trying 8 rack out, and found this out the hard way. Also even if you are on the play it's pretty annoying if they top deck chalice just after looking at their hand. However, if they don't have their chalice 8 rack can pack quite a pounding to the deck. The other issue I run into is dealing with explosive openers and not drawing into my bridge or my bridge getting Thought-Knot Seered. That's what I noticed the match-up came down too.
Side Note 1: Smallpox is pretty good. Especially on the play.
Side Note 2: Wrench Mind not so good with main deck artifacts.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
If you play more 2 cmc spells like boros charm it's better. It's fine if they don't land a chalice for one. Also burns creatures are kinda under whelming and tend lose combat or not come close to outracing it. Unless you have plenty of burn to back them up. It also can be faster than burn faster it depends on their hand.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Burn is great pack a few act of treason in the sb for easy blow outs
Also, many decks are already adjusting to the weaknesses of Eldrazi. I believe Eldrazi control in the long term is more viable, as it can go the long game. Where as a single pyroclasm easily deals with multiple x/2s and x/1s... Then there's cards like Forked Bolt, Imposing Sovereign, Night's Betrayal, Bile Blight, Echoing Truth, etc.... Reality Smasher? Let's say this... pay 4 life, dismember Smasher, discard Big Game Hunter and Madness to kill another power 4 or greater. Or let's get even dirtier, Loxodon Smiters, Obstinate Baloths, and the many other if you discard to an opponent's ability X happens. Then there's Madness coming back in Shadows, which makes the Eldrazi weaker yet....
There's the new bolt... So let's cast this spell, discard two bolts, lava axe a creature and madness bolt 2 more creatures or bolt to the face.
Or let's get dirtier yet.... Hushwing Gryff is flash... flash it in, mimics get nothing, thought knot seer does nothing, and kill TNS and draw a card from killing it.
Let's get into other weaknesses of Eldrazi, and I know from experience as having played the deck for about a month now...
It has an even matchup against Tron. It can lose to infect. Affinity can get the worse nut draw and win by pure life gain. It dies to control. Jund can do a number on it by chaining Fulminator Mages and K Kommand. Surgical Extraction can be played in any sideboard and I highly recommend it due to Goryo's Veangeance running around. Ghost Quarter is excellent. Ensnaring Bridge is difficult to deal with. Supreme Verdict, Damnation, Wrath of God, and other 4 mana wraths are good. Black Sun's Zenith for 1 can close out games. I play Tron, Tron is my cup of tea, and has been for like... 7 years now. Tron can beat Eldrazi, it's an even matchup.
Bonfire of the Damned is a damned good card, as is Terminus.
Seems everyone is also forgetting about Painter's Servant. It's a good way to turn off all the Eldrazi decks and even Tron. If you're playing Merfolk, you just name red and go about your merry way. If you're playing with the fish you're also probably playing with Kira.. Then there's always Sower of Temptation too... Maybe even playing control you might be running Restoration Angel too. Vedalken Shackles anyone?
The point I'm making is that it's too early from a single tournament that wasn't prepared for Eldrazi. There's ways to deal with it, and I have just named a few ways to do so.. I remember last year when people were trying to break Glittering Wish and Jeskai Ascendancy combo which by the way.... Also did crazy stupid things early on until people figured out how to beat it and nobody is calling for Glittering Wish as a foul.
A T2-3 Blood Moon can close a game fast before the Eldrazi player can rally. Blue Moon can actually make an Eldrazi deck stumble enough to allow you to take the game. Lantern Control can take Eldrazi out before they can do anything too dumb....
Also cards like Kitchen Finks also deals with the Eldrazi issue. Hornet Nest is simply.... funny
I concluded that as well from just doing the math on several of the plays eldrazi can pull off with Ugin and Temple. There's just no counter to a deck that can bring out that much power and utility so hard and fast. If the mana lands were more 1.5 mana instead of 2 mana we'd be in a better position. BW tokens can hold out against eldrazi as well, but even that deck can't out grind them even with a mass of fliers on the field since they just force so many chump blocks against superior creatures. Ghostly prison kind of works against them as they have to use their eldrazi specific lands to pay the tax.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!