Just tried Oath of Nissa in Kiki Chord. It's somewhat crummy at digging for combo pieces, especially since it can't grab Chord of Calling, and it can't grab hate bears fast enough, but it does make a ton of low-mana hands more keepable, and it's pretty good at getting early drops! Oath of Nissa is likely staying as a 4-of just to fix opening hands.
Just tried Oath of Nissa in Kiki Chord. It's somewhat crummy at digging for combo pieces, especially since it can't grab Chord of Calling, and it can't grab hate bears fast enough, but it does make a ton of low-mana hands more keepable, and it's pretty good at getting early drops! Oath of Nissa is likely staying as a 4-of just to fix opening hands.
I want to see Oath in a zoo company deck. I wonder if it's too much with company.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
I think it's about the same power level as Counterflux. To cast it for its Surge cost, you need to have another instant/flash spell in hand. And there are opportunity costs to sandbagging that enabler card instead of throwing it out on turn 1/2, like, say, not taking 4 from Goblin Guide.
You can't cast it on turn 2 unless your enabler costs 0 mana and is an instant. There's very few cards that fall into that category. Most of them are 0-for-1s or 1-for-2s given a typical turn 2 board state, which makes enabler -> Overwhelming Denial about as efficient as Simian Spirit Guide -> Cancel.
It's great for winning counter wars when coupled with Dispel, but Counterflux is already great at winning counter wars by itself.
Trying Oath of Nissa in Elves and GW Hatebears now. I did cut some Chord of Calling in Elves, but I'm surprised how little Collected Company is affected by sticking in 4 Oath of Nissa (OK, I also shaved a land, so there are still 32 hits in the deck). In Hatebears, Flickerwisp loves Oath of Nissa, and both the early consistency boost and the late-game CA generated by the Flickerwisp-Oath engine are definitely real (as in GW Hatebears could actually beat Elves in grindy enough games real).
I'll be willing to test oath in zoo. More Im thinking about it the more I like it. zoo plays 25 creatures, 22 lands, and can play 2-3 walkers (ajani and elspeth). Thats 49-50 out of 60. Thats 99%. Plus it can be food for goyf, Hate since its board and main has hatebears, and helps you hit midgame cards like knight.
I'm really unimpressed by Overwhelming Denial. If you manage to sandbag your Thought Scours and Lightning Bolts until turn 3 (instead of playing them out on curve or when you need to) and your opponent plays something important into you 3 open mana: congratulations, you've build your own clunky Counterflux. I have a tough time imagining when this is better than flux.
Overwhelming Denial is a counter counterspell. Thats how it makes the most sense to me. If you force the second spell to interact with your opponent then youre probably doing it wrong. Doing it as a second spell naturally (lets say you are casting a combo card, and they interact with it, you can cast this. Or you counter their spell after interacting again.
Overwhelming Denial is a counter counterspell. Thats how it makes the most sense to me. If you force the second spell to interact with your opponent then youre probably doing it wrong. Doing it as a second spell naturally (lets say you are casting a combo card, and they interact with it, you can cast this. Or you counter their spell after interacting again.
Im still not sold on it, but its a nice tool.
In that case, it's just a worse Dispel. If you need to resolve something the "can't be countered" aspect of it becomes moot (they can just let it resolve and throw another counterspell at the combo piece).
Overwhelming denial sucks, period. If you think that going through hoops to even "build" a Counterflux is good, you haven't played much blue. I regularly play with Deprive in decks in which its drawback is NEGLIGIBLE (to the point where it's actually advantageous to later loot the land), so you could say that I regularly play with straight up Counterspell in Modern, and it's not even backbreaking. Sure, it's good to unconditionally counter, but it's still 2 mana and you still don't draw a card as like in Remand.
What I'm trying to say is that the effect of UU: Counter target spell is good but not even THAT good in Modern, and a garbage card like this which makes you jump through hoops to even have the chance of doing it, is not good at all.
What I'd like to talk about though is Oath of Jace! I love the design of that card, and in looting (as in reanimating?) strategies it ciuld be awesome. What do you think? Also, we learned how insanely good the Scry 1 effect is with Thassa, so just having Jace out gives you that power. Seems solid to me in some builds.
Overwhelming Denial is a counter counterspell. Thats how it makes the most sense to me. If you force the second spell to interact with your opponent then youre probably doing it wrong. Doing it as a second spell naturally (lets say you are casting a combo card, and they interact with it, you can cast this. Or you counter their spell after interacting again.
Im still not sold on it, but its a nice tool.
In that case, it's just a worse Dispel. If you need to resolve something the "can't be countered" aspect of it becomes moot (they can just let it resolve and throw another counterspell at the combo piece).
This is not entirely true. In this format we have a dearth of playable counterspells that target all types of spells, the most played ones being remand or cryptic command. Here's a common scenario:
1. You go and cast finisher.
2. They respond with Cryptic/Remand
3. You play Overwhelming Denial
4. Any followup Dispel is useless.
It sounds pretty niche but it's a scenario that happens often in Modern, especially in Twin mirrors.
Welp, that's precisely the problem with the new Last Word w/upside - it helps combo decks in U to go off protecting their combo pieces. I feel they could have reworked the card so that it could be better in a more control oriented shell. I feel it could be a good sideboard card for certain matchups like blue mirrors, but that's it
Eh, I think Oath of Gideon is pretty flaccid, especially in the wake of Oath of Nissa.
It's the sorcery speed version of Join the Ranks, for what it's worth.
And I guess in that light it sorta meshes well enough with Gideon 3.0 in that both of them crap out Ally triggers and his Oath lets you poop out the Anthem emblem without immediately losing him, but the problem with that is I'm pretty sure any Ally deck worth its cardboard is on the Collected Company plan.
Is there any walkers that get a LOT better with an extra loyalty counter? I mean, shaving a turn off of their ultimate is nice, but most walkers don't get played for those. So is there any that get a lot of milage out of that one extra loyalty?
Best I can find is Elspeth Tirel, who can wipe the board the turn she comes down, but that kills both her and Oath of Gideon (though it would leave Oath's Kor tokens).
Garruk Wildspeaker can Overrun the turn he comes in, but that's not really any better than just casting one of the other 4 mana mass-buffs. He's played for his excellent ramp ability, not his buff.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar can put out an Anthem right when he comes down, and Oath curves well with him, so I guess that's good? Not exactly a ton of value out of this line of play though.
Tezzeret, the Seeker can make all your things 5/5s till end of turn, but it both kills him and requires you to play Oath before hand, which limits how many artifacts you can buff with this. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas can do the same, and has the same problems, except he does less damage doing it.
All told, this could see play in a Superfriends list, but its not going to make such a deck playable on its own.
Oath of Gideon makes two tokens for three mana. Seems like a bad rate when compared to Midnight Haunting or Gather the Townsfolk, but it does have its synergies here and there:
- The tokens are Allies. This is the cheapest card that makes two Allies, sort of like Dwynen's Elite in Elves. Join the Ranks and Collected Company cost 4. Fun fact: Elves did also have a card which made two Elves at instant speed for one more mana: Gilt-Leaf Ambush. Downside: it can't be hit by Collected Company, unlike Dwynen's Elite. And Cavern of Souls and Ally Encampment don't tap for the white in its cost.
- Getting blinked by Flickerwisp. This is pretty much the same deal as Blade Splicer. It's harder to kill an enchantment in response than it is to kill a 1/1 Blade Splicer. Downside: Splicer puts more P/T on the board upon ETB AND every time you blink it. Blade Splicer works with Restoration Angel while Oath doesn't (although Oath works with Venser, the Sojourner). Also, the Flickerwisp/Angel decks play Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
- One extra loyalty counter on your PWs. Yes, the oft-overlooked last ability on these Oaths. I checked the list of white PWs and only Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Elspeth Tirel get to auto-ult with 1 extra counter (ok, Gideon gets to ult immediately regardless of the extra counter, but with it, he doesn't die). Gideon seems like the best beneficiary (it's his Oath, after all). I know Elspeth saw some play in BW Tokens long ago, but I don't think it was for her ult - destroying your anthems seems counterproductive.
Overall, I don't think Oath of Gideon will see play. It's just one in a long list of "make two tokens with the set's theme" cards, only that this time it's a rare. The best-case scenario is T1 Hada Freeblade, T2 Kazandu Blademaster, T3 Oath of Gideon, T4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar ult, but even that is far from broken.
This card wants to be in the same deck as Training Grounds so you can cast it and get one activation in earlier than turn 6, but Restoration Angel does the same thing without Training Grounds support (or dying to Bolt, for that matter).
This card wants to be in the same deck as Training Grounds so you can cast it and get one activation in earlier than turn 6, but Restoration Angel does the same thing without Training Grounds support (or dying to Bolt, for that matter).
It's not really three mana though. It's effectively two or one mana in most cases using the Eldrazi manabase. With a lone Temple, it's two lands tapped. With a lone Eye, it's one land tapped. It also repeatedly wreaks havoc on the enemy board once you untap with it. I think those upsides are well worth it for a window of Bolt vulnerability, especially given that you often won't be paying three mana for the card.
My only reservation about Displacer is that it doesn't help a few of BW Eldrazi's worst matchups: Affinity and Burn. It also doesn't do too much work against Tron and Bloom, although it's not totally irrelevant either.
Also, bolt is kind of dead against the Eldrazi deck because of all the x/4s and higher - if you're including things like this you're WAY over extending your opponents removal. The fact that this costs just W with an Eye out is completely awesome (and temple activates it for only C).
Is it possible that looking at only Ults is a bit narrow-minded? Lots of PW's most powerful abilities are their -x abilities that arent ults. This would let you potentially -2 Liliana twice in a row, for example. I'm sure there are other PW's where a similar interaction occurs. Domri can instigate a creature fight on two consecutive turns, Garruk, Primal Hunter can use his -3 and survive a turn, new jace can do his -3 on the turn he comes out and then again on the next turn, same for Ral Zarek, etc.
Edit: I agree entirely about the eldrazi spoiler. It's almost never going to be actually cast for 3 mana. I agree with Izzetmage that in a vacuum, and in a very general sense, it's not a good card. But when put in a shell like eldrazi processors, it's a very, very good card. It's a repeatable restoration angel, and literally nearly all the new eldrazi cards have ETB effects.
This card wants to be in the same deck as Training Grounds so you can cast it and get one activation in earlier than turn 6, but Restoration Angel does the same thing without Training Grounds support (or dying to Bolt, for that matter).
It's not really three mana though. It's effectively two or one mana in most cases using the Eldrazi manabase. With a lone Temple, it's two lands tapped. With a lone Eye, it's one land tapped. It also defends itself once you untap with it, not to mention repeatedly wreaking havoc on the enemy board. I think those upsides are well worth it for a window of Bolt vulnerability, especially given that you often won't be paying three mana for the card.
My only reservation about Displacer is that it doesn't help a few of BW Eldrazi's worst matchups: Affinity and Burn. It also doesn't do too much work against Tron and Bloom, although it's not totally irrelevant either.
How does it defend itself? It says 'exile another target creature'...
While I like the card I don't really know how it actually improves the BW Eldrazi deck. As you said it doesn't really help the bad MUs and besides Wasteland Strangler and maybe Tidehollow Sculler they don't have any ETB triggers to abuse with it.
It would actually be a lot better if the exiled card would return at end of turn (like Flickerwisp's effect) so you could process it. But like this? I'd say maybe as a one-off (not because it's a bad card, but because it just doesn't help any of the problems the deck has).
But nice see that 'white' eldrazi do exist!
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I want to see Oath in a zoo company deck. I wonder if it's too much with company.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I think it's about the same power level as Counterflux. To cast it for its Surge cost, you need to have another instant/flash spell in hand. And there are opportunity costs to sandbagging that enabler card instead of throwing it out on turn 1/2, like, say, not taking 4 from Goblin Guide.
You can't cast it on turn 2 unless your enabler costs 0 mana and is an instant. There's very few cards that fall into that category. Most of them are 0-for-1s or 1-for-2s given a typical turn 2 board state, which makes enabler -> Overwhelming Denial about as efficient as Simian Spirit Guide -> Cancel.
It's great for winning counter wars when coupled with Dispel, but Counterflux is already great at winning counter wars by itself.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
(2UU Instant
Surge UU
~ can't be countered.
Counter target spell.)
At first, I thought it was bad but it costs UU with surge and it can't be countered. It seems good to me.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Im still not sold on it, but its a nice tool.
In that case, it's just a worse Dispel. If you need to resolve something the "can't be countered" aspect of it becomes moot (they can just let it resolve and throw another counterspell at the combo piece).
What I'm trying to say is that the effect of UU: Counter target spell is good but not even THAT good in Modern, and a garbage card like this which makes you jump through hoops to even have the chance of doing it, is not good at all.
What I'd like to talk about though is Oath of Jace! I love the design of that card, and in looting (as in reanimating?) strategies it ciuld be awesome. What do you think? Also, we learned how insanely good the Scry 1 effect is with Thassa, so just having Jace out gives you that power. Seems solid to me in some builds.
1. You go and cast finisher.
2. They respond with Cryptic/Remand
3. You play Overwhelming Denial
4. Any followup Dispel is useless.
It sounds pretty niche but it's a scenario that happens often in Modern, especially in Twin mirrors.
CG
It's the sorcery speed version of Join the Ranks, for what it's worth.
And I guess in that light it sorta meshes well enough with Gideon 3.0 in that both of them crap out Ally triggers and his Oath lets you poop out the Anthem emblem without immediately losing him, but the problem with that is I'm pretty sure any Ally deck worth its cardboard is on the Collected Company plan.
So yeah.
Best I can find is Elspeth Tirel, who can wipe the board the turn she comes down, but that kills both her and Oath of Gideon (though it would leave Oath's Kor tokens).
Garruk Wildspeaker can Overrun the turn he comes in, but that's not really any better than just casting one of the other 4 mana mass-buffs. He's played for his excellent ramp ability, not his buff.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar can put out an Anthem right when he comes down, and Oath curves well with him, so I guess that's good? Not exactly a ton of value out of this line of play though.
Tezzeret, the Seeker can make all your things 5/5s till end of turn, but it both kills him and requires you to play Oath before hand, which limits how many artifacts you can buff with this. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas can do the same, and has the same problems, except he does less damage doing it.
All told, this could see play in a Superfriends list, but its not going to make such a deck playable on its own.
- The tokens are Allies. This is the cheapest card that makes two Allies, sort of like Dwynen's Elite in Elves. Join the Ranks and Collected Company cost 4. Fun fact: Elves did also have a card which made two Elves at instant speed for one more mana: Gilt-Leaf Ambush. Downside: it can't be hit by Collected Company, unlike Dwynen's Elite. And Cavern of Souls and Ally Encampment don't tap for the white in its cost.
- Getting blinked by Flickerwisp. This is pretty much the same deal as Blade Splicer. It's harder to kill an enchantment in response than it is to kill a 1/1 Blade Splicer. Downside: Splicer puts more P/T on the board upon ETB AND every time you blink it. Blade Splicer works with Restoration Angel while Oath doesn't (although Oath works with Venser, the Sojourner). Also, the Flickerwisp/Angel decks play Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
- One extra loyalty counter on your PWs. Yes, the oft-overlooked last ability on these Oaths. I checked the list of white PWs and only Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Elspeth Tirel get to auto-ult with 1 extra counter (ok, Gideon gets to ult immediately regardless of the extra counter, but with it, he doesn't die). Gideon seems like the best beneficiary (it's his Oath, after all). I know Elspeth saw some play in BW Tokens long ago, but I don't think it was for her ult - destroying your anthems seems counterproductive.
Overall, I don't think Oath of Gideon will see play. It's just one in a long list of "make two tokens with the set's theme" cards, only that this time it's a rare. The best-case scenario is T1 Hada Freeblade, T2 Kazandu Blademaster, T3 Oath of Gideon, T4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar ult, but even that is far from broken.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
This card wants to be in the same deck as Training Grounds so you can cast it and get one activation in earlier than turn 6, but Restoration Angel does the same thing without Training Grounds support (or dying to Bolt, for that matter).
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
It's not really three mana though. It's effectively two or one mana in most cases using the Eldrazi manabase. With a lone Temple, it's two lands tapped. With a lone Eye, it's one land tapped. It also repeatedly wreaks havoc on the enemy board once you untap with it. I think those upsides are well worth it for a window of Bolt vulnerability, especially given that you often won't be paying three mana for the card.
My only reservation about Displacer is that it doesn't help a few of BW Eldrazi's worst matchups: Affinity and Burn. It also doesn't do too much work against Tron and Bloom, although it's not totally irrelevant either.
EDIT: READING CARDS IS HARD
Edit: I agree entirely about the eldrazi spoiler. It's almost never going to be actually cast for 3 mana. I agree with Izzetmage that in a vacuum, and in a very general sense, it's not a good card. But when put in a shell like eldrazi processors, it's a very, very good card. It's a repeatable restoration angel, and literally nearly all the new eldrazi cards have ETB effects.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
How does it defend itself? It says 'exile another target creature'...
While I like the card I don't really know how it actually improves the BW Eldrazi deck. As you said it doesn't really help the bad MUs and besides Wasteland Strangler and maybe Tidehollow Sculler they don't have any ETB triggers to abuse with it.
It would actually be a lot better if the exiled card would return at end of turn (like Flickerwisp's effect) so you could process it. But like this? I'd say maybe as a one-off (not because it's a bad card, but because it just doesn't help any of the problems the deck has).
But nice see that 'white' eldrazi do exist!