There are a variety of ways to meet the strangler's condition, not even including the opponent's own delves. The Strangler is a 3/2 beater for 3 that can kill an opponents creature pretty often. I do not think it is auto-include, as a deck will need to have a certain amount of exile cards to make it work.
Just from goldfishing, my rule in deck construction has been 11 "exile" cards for 3 Strangler (So 15 "exile cards for 4 strangler, but I do not think you want to run 4 stanglers).
Anyway which cards work well with it? (Below are cards with a converted mana-cost of 3 [Except Leyline] or less that may have good applications with the Strangler, some are better than others obviously.
A White/Black death and taxes with a splash for red (for Chained to the Rocks, Bolts and the BR command)
A Rock Deck (BGW) running Path to Exile, Sculler, Ooze, Abzan and maybe even collected company and goyf.
An Esper Deck (BWU) running Path to Exile, Sculler, and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, and a set of blue control cards.
I believe the mono-black deck is probably a poor direction, but the other four directions are completely valid. The core of the deck no matter what will probably be:
For the WB deck - those 3 cards should probably be flickerwisp, which leads you into Aethervial
For the WBR deck - those 3 cards should probably be the same because otherwise you'll have to much creature kill. Although you can take out some PTE for Chained to the Rocks. Also your bolts and commands can be used as creature kill in a pinch (or reach)
For the WBG deck - those three cards are probably Ooze. . . if you're running green in Modern you should be running CC, so I am guessing your only spells are 4 Collected Company, 4 PTE, 4 Thoughtseize, and 28 Creatures: 4 Scullers, 3 Stranglers, 3 Ooze, 4 Goyf, 10 Other - basically leaving you with only 10 spots.
For the WBU deck - those three cards are Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. You are also probably running Snapcaster mage and serum's visions in this deck.
I don't know which deck or direction is best to take this card, but I think the card itself is good enough for modern play and should be discussed.
I know many lists play Inquisitions instead of Thoughtseize, but I always like running a full set of that card in any deck with black, but that's probably my error.
And as I said I believe you need 11 exile effects to effectively run 3 stranglers. PTE and Sculler are IMO the best exile effects out of all the ones I listed - and if you're running 4 of them each, that leaves you 3 "Open Exile Spots" which depends on the color of your deck. Running less than 11 leaves you with a "dead" strangler in your hand more often than I am comfortable with. [Of course if you're only running 2 Stranglers then you may only run 8 exile effects]
----
Current Deck Proposals for discussion:
WBG: Abzan Company runs currently: 1 Scavenging Ooze and 1 Fiend Hunter. I propose finding room for 2 Strangler, 2-4 Scullers and 2-4 PTE. Abzan Midrange runs 4 PTE and 2 Ooze, I propose finding room for 2 Strangler and 2 Scullers WB: Death and Taxes currently runs tidehallow, Flickerwisp and PTE, I propose finding room for 3 Strangler, and maybe 2-4 Scullers
The O-ring/Detention Sphere shenanigans are hilariously mean. I'm not sure if they're good enough for Modern, though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
I just don't think such a card is necessary. The exile cards you want are cards that do something on their own - such as PTE which is removal, Tidehallow which is discard, Ashiok which can make an army if unanswered, Delay which is a counter, etc. Relic is just a cantrip when it is not enabling Stangler (or GY hate if you face a gifts-rite deck)
It's cute with tidehollow sculler and flickerwisp, but that's probably just it: cute. If you want this effect just run skinrender (unless you're playing collected company i guess).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Yes, I know, "free Bile Blight" on a body. Very tempting.
Here's something I'm going to tell you which I have learned through years of beating my stupid wooden head against a wall of denial: NEVER make your removal depend on ANY condition. Try testing: You will never have a target in opponent's exile whenever you draw this.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
This signature holds priority until end of comment.
Yes, I know, "free Bile Blight" on a body. Very tempting.
Here's something I'm going to tell you which I have learned through years of beating my stupid wooden head against a wall of denial: NEVER make your removal depend on ANY condition. Try testing: You will never have a target in opponent's exile whenever you draw this.
I have tried testing. . .
From personal experience (and that's all we are going to get til we see tournament results) if you are running 3 Stranglers 11+ exile effects of 2CMC or below is enough to reliably cast this when you draw into it. (This of course means that in my testing while the flickerwisp interaction is awesome, you shouldn't rely on it, at least for the 11+ exile recommendation). When I ran 4 Stranglers, I found that you need to run 15+ exile effects of 2CMC or below. When I ran 2 Stranglers, my testing showed you only need 8+ exile effects of 2CMC or below.
Thus from the above for a Death and taxes deck running only 4 PTE, 4 Sculler and 4 Flickerwisp, I would only recommend 2 Stranglers as a base
For esper I would recommend 4 PTE, 4 Sculler, 3 Delay and 3 Stranglers as a starting base (feel free to add in Flickerwisp if you can find room)
I think the MOST powerful interaction is with flickerwisp, since it makes flickerwisp better and kills 2 thinks while netting you 2 dudes. Problem is it's 6 mana or 3 + vial.
The next best is with tidehollow sculler, since when you play sculler it'll probably die anyway. The best way to play this interaction is to vial in wasteland strangler in response to their removal on sculler: nets you the exiled card, the removal, a creature, and a 3/2 for 2 cards. Again, this requires vial.
With oblivion ring effects, it's ok but not usually amazing. The only time it's amazing is again using vial in response to their removal on the ring, which not every deck has.
Combined with cards like path to exile, or bringing back their own delved cards it's kinda meh. Bolt + a 3/2 for 3 is decent but not backbreaking or anything.
Combined with RIP/leyline/relic/ect is pointless, as you're playing narrow cards maindeck for an effect that's not good enough (although it might make those cards more worth playing in the board).
Overall, I think the card is cool and will fit in WB death and taxes lists (and maybe WB aggro/vial lists), but probably not as more than a 2-of, because while the effect is awesome, it takes some setup.
D&T seems like a natural fit but what are peoples thought on a Abzan CoCo brew?
When CoCo was spoiled I was already entertaining the idea of running Flickerwisp in there, since it acts like a pseudo Resto to go with all the value dudes. Just imagine hitting Wisp + Strangler at instant speed or of course Strangler + Sculler. It's potentially a 4 for 1 blowout that require the opponent to react to right away (as opposed to Sculler sitting for a couple of turns on the board before Strangler arrives)
D&T seems like a natural fit but what are peoples thought on a Abzan CoCo brew?
When CoCo was spoiled I was already entertaining the idea of running Flickerwisp in there, since it acts like a pseudo Resto to go with all the value dudes. Just imagine hitting Wisp + Strangler at instant speed or of course Strangler + Sculler. It's potentially a 4 for 1 blowout that require the opponent to react to right away (as opposed to Sculler sitting for a couple of turns on the board before Strangler arrives)
I think Wasteland Strangler is pretty awkward in Abzan Company. My current Melira Company deck plays 1 Scavenging Ooze, 3 Tidehollow Scullers, and 1 Fiend Hunter. Even if I replace my 2 Abrupt Decays with Path to Exiles, I won't get an exiling card in my first 11 cards fairly often. This means that Turn 1 mana dork, Turn 2 2-drop (say, Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit), Turn 3 Collected Company makes the Strangler cheated in on Turn 3 whiff too often. I'm this close to replacing Strangler with Murderous Redcap at this point (and what pushes me over the edge is my conservative habit of waiting until I have Sac Outlet-"Melira"-Persist-Persist before I instigate the combo in order to dodge removal).
And then, against grindy decks like Jund, Sculler is bad enough against them that I side it out. Watch Strangler's value plummet so hard that I board it out, too.
are you really trying to build around skinrender one mana cheaper? the card isnt good enough to make these other bad cards good. only path and sculler are cards that synergise with him and even then he needs a decent target to bolt on curve
I strongly believe there is an Esper (BUW) Processor shell capable of using the 2 most competitive processors: this card, and Ulamog's Nullifier, which is basically an upgraded Mystic Snake if you've got cards exiled.
As other have mentioned, it just makes more sense, instead of deliberately running exile graveyard effects, to also go for a core function. I think the exception to this rule is Suffer the Past, an extremely easy to cast instant that drains life. It can leave snapcasters and goyfs high and dry at instant speed while also gaining you life.
Here's a simple, barebones rule-of-9ish off the top of my head:
Well ok, maybe its not so rule of 9. I went all in on the exile-process theme, and I think it has a reasonable way to curve out and has answers for most games. The hand disruption is real and I like that there will probably always be enough cards to process.
If DRS found itself unbanned you could see some use for it. Until they point you looking to build around it which is usually where you don't want to be when you need removal.
As for all these tricks with Delay and other such cards, it's cute but cute doesn't cut it when you want consistent.
I think the real problem with Strangler is that he is not good enough to warrant building your deck around...Adding the nullifer would help if it were more powerful but currently we have one conditional decent card, and one more difficult to use, slightly weaker card and that doesn't seem work the effort to put all of the exile effects in your deck for. When the next set comes out if there is another low cost processor that has a good ability I could see this working as more of a deck, but currently we are trying to build around a card that ultimate is a hard to use 2 for 1 at 3 mana. Those cards already exist and are easier to use in electrolize, and Kolagon's Command. Until there is something that is objectively more powerful than those I don't think strangler will make it, but I really do want him to be, it does seem like an interesting deck that would be fun to play as now you are adding which cards to exile, and which of those to process to the decision tree and that to me seems like a good time.
I ran a B/W Death and Taxes deck this weekend with 2x strangler. He was AMAZING for me. I ran 2 main deck with at 3rd in the side. There was never a time I had him, nothing to exile and something I wanted to kill. There where times he was in hand and there was nothing WORTH killing though.
As far as "enablers" I had :
4x Path to exile
4x Flickerwisp
4x Tidehollow skuller
My best play with it was G1 round 2 against burn. He exiled a Riftbolt and attacked with a GG. I put the Riftbolt into his GY and killed the GG.
It is def not a 4 x card. 1-2 of is amazing in the right deck though.
Its a 3 of in 1 tier 3? deck. Also thought knot seer is the real card that helped the archetype alot from oath which didn't exist when most of these posts were made. Card does nothing against the tier 1 deaths shadow deck, and its pretty bad against the bigger eldrazi. I like the card its just a bit situational.
There are a variety of ways to meet the strangler's condition, not even including the opponent's own delves. The Strangler is a 3/2 beater for 3 that can kill an opponents creature pretty often. I do not think it is auto-include, as a deck will need to have a certain amount of exile cards to make it work.
Just from goldfishing, my rule in deck construction has been 11 "exile" cards for 3 Strangler (So 15 "exile cards for 4 strangler, but I do not think you want to run 4 stanglers).
Anyway which cards work well with it? (Below are cards with a converted mana-cost of 3 [Except Leyline] or less that may have good applications with the Strangler, some are better than others obviously.
-----
B
Extirpate
Faerie Macabre
Surgical Extraction
Leyline of the Void
U
Reality Shift
W
Path To Exile
Flickerwisp
Banishing Light
Journey to Nowhere
Oblivion Ring
Rest in Peace
G
Scavenging Ooze
WB
Tidehollow Sculler
Castigate
Hide/Seek
Unmake
WR
Chained to the Rocks
BU
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
WU
Detention Sphere
WBG
Abzan Charm
0
Jester's Scepter
Tormod's Crypt
----
So from the above list a couple deck ideas become apparent:
I believe the mono-black deck is probably a poor direction, but the other four directions are completely valid. The core of the deck no matter what will probably be:
4 Path To Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 "Exile Cards"
For the WB deck - those 3 cards should probably be flickerwisp, which leads you into Aethervial
For the WBR deck - those 3 cards should probably be the same because otherwise you'll have to much creature kill. Although you can take out some PTE for Chained to the Rocks. Also your bolts and commands can be used as creature kill in a pinch (or reach)
For the WBG deck - those three cards are probably Ooze. . . if you're running green in Modern you should be running CC, so I am guessing your only spells are 4 Collected Company, 4 PTE, 4 Thoughtseize, and 28 Creatures: 4 Scullers, 3 Stranglers, 3 Ooze, 4 Goyf, 10 Other - basically leaving you with only 10 spots.
For the WBU deck - those three cards are Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. You are also probably running Snapcaster mage and serum's visions in this deck.
I don't know which deck or direction is best to take this card, but I think the card itself is good enough for modern play and should be discussed.
And as I said I believe you need 11 exile effects to effectively run 3 stranglers. PTE and Sculler are IMO the best exile effects out of all the ones I listed - and if you're running 4 of them each, that leaves you 3 "Open Exile Spots" which depends on the color of your deck. Running less than 11 leaves you with a "dead" strangler in your hand more often than I am comfortable with. [Of course if you're only running 2 Stranglers then you may only run 8 exile effects]
----
Current Deck Proposals for discussion:
WBG: Abzan Company runs currently: 1 Scavenging Ooze and 1 Fiend Hunter. I propose finding room for 2 Strangler, 2-4 Scullers and 2-4 PTE. Abzan Midrange runs 4 PTE and 2 Ooze, I propose finding room for 2 Strangler and 2 Scullers
WB: Death and Taxes currently runs tidehallow, Flickerwisp and PTE, I propose finding room for 3 Strangler, and maybe 2-4 Scullers
---
Current Brewing:
WBU Control
WBR Mid-range/Control
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
That's a great catch!
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
Here's something I'm going to tell you which I have learned through years of beating my stupid wooden head against a wall of denial: NEVER make your removal depend on ANY condition. Try testing: You will never have a target in opponent's exile whenever you draw this.
I have tried testing. . .
From personal experience (and that's all we are going to get til we see tournament results) if you are running 3 Stranglers 11+ exile effects of 2CMC or below is enough to reliably cast this when you draw into it. (This of course means that in my testing while the flickerwisp interaction is awesome, you shouldn't rely on it, at least for the 11+ exile recommendation). When I ran 4 Stranglers, I found that you need to run 15+ exile effects of 2CMC or below. When I ran 2 Stranglers, my testing showed you only need 8+ exile effects of 2CMC or below.
Thus from the above for a Death and taxes deck running only 4 PTE, 4 Sculler and 4 Flickerwisp, I would only recommend 2 Stranglers as a base
For esper I would recommend 4 PTE, 4 Sculler, 3 Delay and 3 Stranglers as a starting base (feel free to add in Flickerwisp if you can find room)
The next best is with tidehollow sculler, since when you play sculler it'll probably die anyway. The best way to play this interaction is to vial in wasteland strangler in response to their removal on sculler: nets you the exiled card, the removal, a creature, and a 3/2 for 2 cards. Again, this requires vial.
With oblivion ring effects, it's ok but not usually amazing. The only time it's amazing is again using vial in response to their removal on the ring, which not every deck has.
Combined with cards like path to exile, or bringing back their own delved cards it's kinda meh. Bolt + a 3/2 for 3 is decent but not backbreaking or anything.
Combined with RIP/leyline/relic/ect is pointless, as you're playing narrow cards maindeck for an effect that's not good enough (although it might make those cards more worth playing in the board).
Overall, I think the card is cool and will fit in WB death and taxes lists (and maybe WB aggro/vial lists), but probably not as more than a 2-of, because while the effect is awesome, it takes some setup.
When CoCo was spoiled I was already entertaining the idea of running Flickerwisp in there, since it acts like a pseudo Resto to go with all the value dudes. Just imagine hitting Wisp + Strangler at instant speed or of course Strangler + Sculler. It's potentially a 4 for 1 blowout that require the opponent to react to right away (as opposed to Sculler sitting for a couple of turns on the board before Strangler arrives)
I think Wasteland Strangler is pretty awkward in Abzan Company. My current Melira Company deck plays 1 Scavenging Ooze, 3 Tidehollow Scullers, and 1 Fiend Hunter. Even if I replace my 2 Abrupt Decays with Path to Exiles, I won't get an exiling card in my first 11 cards fairly often. This means that Turn 1 mana dork, Turn 2 2-drop (say, Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit), Turn 3 Collected Company makes the Strangler cheated in on Turn 3 whiff too often. I'm this close to replacing Strangler with Murderous Redcap at this point (and what pushes me over the edge is my conservative habit of waiting until I have Sac Outlet-"Melira"-Persist-Persist before I instigate the combo in order to dodge removal).
And then, against grindy decks like Jund, Sculler is bad enough against them that I side it out. Watch Strangler's value plummet so hard that I board it out, too.
As other have mentioned, it just makes more sense, instead of deliberately running exile graveyard effects, to also go for a core function. I think the exception to this rule is Suffer the Past, an extremely easy to cast instant that drains life. It can leave snapcasters and goyfs high and dry at instant speed while also gaining you life.
Here's a simple, barebones rule-of-9ish off the top of my head:
4 ulamog's nullifier
4 brain maggot
4 tidehollow sculler
4 path to exile
4 delay
4 suffer the past
4 surgical extraction
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Esper Charm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Marsh Flats
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Island
Well ok, maybe its not so rule of 9. I went all in on the exile-process theme, and I think it has a reasonable way to curve out and has answers for most games. The hand disruption is real and I like that there will probably always be enough cards to process.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
As for all these tricks with Delay and other such cards, it's cute but cute doesn't cut it when you want consistent.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
i hope. and expect it to see some standard play but its just too conditional to be good in modern. even with my love tidehollow sculler
As far as "enablers" I had :
4x Path to exile
4x Flickerwisp
4x Tidehollow skuller
My best play with it was G1 round 2 against burn. He exiled a Riftbolt and attacked with a GG. I put the Riftbolt into his GY and killed the GG.
It is def not a 4 x card. 1-2 of is amazing in the right deck though.
Former YGO player so Card Advantage is ALWAYS king in my decks.
Its a 3 of in 1 tier 3? deck. Also thought knot seer is the real card that helped the archetype alot from oath which didn't exist when most of these posts were made. Card does nothing against the tier 1 deaths shadow deck, and its pretty bad against the bigger eldrazi. I like the card its just a bit situational.