I'm going to say first that I'm not the best modern player out there, but this is something I would like to discuss.
I personally love playing control decks, especially UB control. Alot of people are saying the traditional control, especially UB control is dead. I think the reason why UB control is dead is mostly because of Liliana of the Veil. I find that if she comes into play and she isn't countered or destroyed right away, she can run away with the game by forcing you to discard and then making you sacrifice half of your lands. Her 3 mana cost is also an enormous problem.
I seen alot of people say control is dead because of the number of different aggro decks you need to deal with and there is no sliver bullet to deal with all of them. But I think that if Liliana is removed from the game, UB control might be viable again.
(I'm curious if something will be release in Battle for Zendikar that might revive UB control)
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Traditional control decks are dependent upon strong counterspells, and Modern is not designed with those in mind.
There's also not much incentive for control to play only 2 colors instead of 3-color. U/B has negligible upsides compared to Grixis Control, which is viable.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
I agree with you there is no incentive to play 2 colors, when 3 colors would be much better with the fetch lands to further thin out the deck. Personally, I love Grixis Control, I think its a very strong deck.
But I think a deck running 12-14 Counterspells and the rest as Red/Black Removal is suffice. I seen the older decks run almost entirely counterspells, but shifting the proportion of counterspells more towards RB removal?
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UB control is not the "only" traditional MTG Control.
You use UB control as a to represent Control and then to criticize the power level of Liliana of the Veil. This is not appropriate.
If UB control dose not work, why not splash with the 3rd color?
I'm not arguing Liliana as an unfair card. Yes I know there are other control decks out there. I agree, I should splash in a third color.
Yah, I obviously wrong about the "Traditional Control" part (I just looked it up).
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There's not enough good counterspells in Modern to justify running that many. Personally, I think the format is fine with the counterspells we have, maybe 1 more would be nice.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
A card that's very good at dealing with Liliana is Creeping Tar Pit. No, you won't be killing her in one shot, but at least you'll most likely be getting her off the table.
Grixis control is a tier 1 deck, and has cards like snapcaster mage, khologhan's command, and tasiguir which abuse the graveyard so they can still use cards that they've discarded.
Also American control was still a tier 1 deck for a year or two after lily was printed.
Also, while Lily is a very powerful card there are many ways to interact with her. You can counter her, make the opponent discard her, burn her, swing into her, destroy her, abuse the GY, pithing needle her, ect.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
People are talking as if making your opponent sacrifice permanents and discard cards isn't itself controlling. It may not be BLUE controlling, but it is certainly controlling, and is part of why I love modern.
Shes not the reason "traditional control was killed" "good" Counterspells havent been printed since 7th. At 7th edition you got force spike and counterspell. Modern starts at 8th, when they have made many many statements saying they were done with draw go. From there they accidentally printed a good counter in remand. They admitted this was a mistake. But also remand is really a tempo card that control can (and has been) forced to use.
Later down the line control go faeries, which mind you, was a permanent based control deck. Then it was the best deck and standard and renewed the whole "we wont print control cards" fast forward and jace happens (mistake, banned) then they finally, perposefully, print a control card. Mana Leak in magic 2011.
And to this date. They have not printed a "good" counterspell. Look at the commands that were printed. Every single one of them that wasnt blue has been used. They made them bad counters.
Yes good control cards have been printed. Tasi, Kcommand. All the same, no "Powerful" counterspell. WHich is perfectly fine by me, that just isnt where blue is anymore. Its clear that black is now the color of control, and blue is the color of tempo.
"Arggh, Legacy too expensive, better hope Moderns turns into a format that supports my play style just only cheaper."
No, BFZ will probably not help traditional control and raise UB to the levels Grixis enjoys from K.Command. Enjoy the horrible UB
mill whatever slapped on a tentacle rape creature.
Actually I think liliana helped control gain a new avenue, the issue is that the card selection effects are very low and that is done to keep combo in check. I like the new future of aggro control though, but there should be cards printed to help that angle of control a bit in colors other than grixis though (even though Id like some more good UB cards myself sometime soon) Dragonlord Ojutai definitely is quite the interesting finisher though, so idk...maybe its just the fact that the average spells are being printed on a much lower power tier than what modern players are used to, which I do think is a bad thing for modern if it stays constant personally.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
control isn't dead and it probably will never truly die. the issue with control decks in modern is that they are very difficult to play correctly. you get punished severely (oftentimes a lost game) when you pick the wrong battles to fight, creature to remove, etc. however, die hard control players (like myself) will always exist and we will attempt to win even in this hostile modern environment. practice makes perfect and liliana is definitely not the most devastating thing against control. lately fish has been the bane of my existence what with them walking all over the islands I always seem to have in play.
Traditional control decks are dependent upon strong counterspells, and Modern is not designed with those in mind.
There's also not much incentive for control to play only 2 colors instead of 3-color. U/B has negligible upsides compared to Grixis Control, which is viable.
Except Grixis is a Midrange deck that is incorrectly called a Control deck, not a Control deck. I agree about UB being just worse than Grixis in most cases though.
Control isn't dead in modern, although it isn't at it's healthiest and Lili isn't the problem. The problem is we lack a good counterspell that whose CMC matches up with the cheap threats we need to answer and we don't have the ability to bury someone in card advantage like you used to be able to in the old days. Control has had to adapt to handle modern, a prime example of this is the current Grixis Control deck. Its strength is that it is capable of switching from a control deck to a midrange deck to a tempo deck depending on its configuration and its match-up.
Valanarch: I largely agree with you although I have taken to calling it Midrange/control. It is more control-y then Jund/k but much more of a midrange deck then something like WUR control.
Side note: Counterspell is not why Legacy is blue based, Brainstorm and co is why legacy is blue based. Counterspell would be fine in modern, we already have Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf and turn 3 Karns.
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In play: Jund Death Shadow, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Stompy, Ponza
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
Oh no, a planeswalker that is actually good and worth the $100 she costs. She actually does something against people unlike Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded. What a heresy. Better get rid of her.
Honestly Liliana can claim even more victims for all I care but Im not the most neutral person on that matter.
By the way ban talk is forbidden outside of the designated thread which is what the OP is implying. Just an information to steer the thread into a different direction.
People are talking as if making your opponent sacrifice permanents and discard cards isn't itself controlling. It may not be BLUE controlling, but it is certainly controlling, and is part of why I love modern.
Agreed and it's baffling. Discarding cards and sacrificing creatures and permanents are all control tools the last time I checked. Or are those suddenly aggro or combo tools now?
Its clear that black is now the color of control, and blue is the color of tempo.
And the reason for that is simple. Board-control is what this game has become about and black is far better suited for that than blue can ever hope to be. Simply because blue cannot actually interact with the board besides bouncing stuff which is notoriously bad outside of some tempo strategies since it's card disadvantage.
It's no coincidence that the best shells at board-control always find their way to the top and stay there. Mono-Black Devotion and Abzan as the most recent Standard examples and Jund, Abzan and nowadays also Grixis Control for Modern ones.
I deploy my own stuff and the best thing about it is that it outclasses your stuff and makes it irrelevant. I don't care about your Fleecemane Lions because you will never beat my Siege Rhinos or Elspeth, Sun's Champions solely with them anyway.
Mono-Black Devotion really captured it the best. A mono-colored deck consisting of only 3 things: powerful and efficient removal/disruption, really powerful threats(I count Underworld Connections in this too) and lands to cast everything. So simple on the surface but it was enough to make it into the dominating monster that it was.
Jund in Modern was/is in the same boat. It was also dominating at one point and is still one of the best decks. It plays those 3 things too. It just needs to dip into 3 colors to get those things.
People wonder why Midrange specifically has become the most powerful archetype well here is why. It simply embodies this basic concept the best.
First off, Counterspell isn't unconditional. All counterspells are conditional by nature, otherwise Doom Blade and Cradle to Grave are the same card. You have to have the counterspell the moment the card is cast or it doesn't stop the play.
Secondly, I can play around Thoughtsieze? I can answer Abrupt Decay? No. There are plenty of cards in modern I can't play around, hell the format is built on them.
Last point: The control player only runs 4 counterspells, they don't always have one in hand and open mana. Beside any magic player who knows how to play against control knows how to bait out counterspells and land they threats they really want.
Counterspell was fine for over 10 years, it will be fine in modern. But we are getting off topic here.
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In play: Jund Death Shadow, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Stompy, Ponza
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
I just want to clarify, this is not the discussion about a ban. I think Lili is a perfectly far card.
Yah, I agree, Creeping Tar Pit is definitely great for UB control and Grixis control would definitely be a tier 1 deck.
But to the no good counter spells printed recently, don't we have remand, cryptic?
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I'd applaud Lilly for murdering control but it isn't her fault.
Control cannot exist where threats are wide and diverse. It works in T2 because T2 is ***** and even a couple mediocre counterspells and removals are enough to control that field. It "works" in Legacy because CounterTop hits 90% of all spells played in Legacy and FoW takes care of the remaining 10%.
It doesn't work in Modern because there are three savage aggro decks, three swarm strategies that don't really care for losing a piece so long as they reach critical mass and a powerful combo deck that plays the same quality control as "control" decks.
Liliana is most often seen in midrange decks and the only thing Modern control decks have a good record against, is midrange decks.
Control isn't dead in modern, although it isn't at it's healthiest and Lili isn't the problem. The problem is we lack a good counterspell that whose CMC matches up with the cheap threats we need to answer and we don't have the ability to bury someone in card advantage like you used to be able to in the old days. Control has had to adapt to handle modern, a prime example of this is the current Grixis Control deck. Its strength is that it is capable of switching from a control deck to a midrange deck to a tempo deck depending on its configuration and its match-up.
Valanarch: I largely agree with you although I have taken to calling it Midrange/control. It is more control-y then Jund/k but much more of a midrange deck then something like WUR control.
Side note: Counterspell is not why Legacy is blue based, Brainstorm and co is why legacy is blue based. Counterspell would be fine in modern, we already have Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf and turn 3 Karns.
Yeah, Grixis is a lot like WUR Flash used to be like back in the day.
I would love you to explain the draw back of counterspell. It is not its double color cost either. This is not 1999 where hitting double color was difficult. In Modern hitting double color is easy, maybe too easy.
Counterspell is an unconditional counter. Something Wotc has gotten away from under 3 mana.
Also,
All counterspells are conditional by nature, otherwise Doom Blade and Cradle to Grave are the same card.
You mention counterspells and then talk about removal spells. Different animals.
At the Op, LotV didnt kill control, just changed it. Blue mages are having a hard time adjusting. So they complain control is dead.
To me what control needs is 1) better white cards, honestly every other color or color combination over the last year or two has gotten some sweet tools but white pretty much got nothing. Right now there is no reason to play UWR over Grixis because white is just so much worse than black. And 2) better card selection, Serum Visions is bad card that interacts terribly with fetchlands. It makes the game plan of turn 1 cantrip turn 2 hold up fetch/counterspell not really so good. I don't think preordain is too strong for Modern but that's a topic for the banlist thread.
I will say though that Grixis Control is just as enjoyable to play as traditional control decks so at least there's that.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
Bad use of language on my part. The card Counterspell is an unconditional counter but it isn't an unconditional answer. Alot of people talk about counterspell as though it also has Vindicate stapled to it. Comparing Doom Blade and Cradle to Grave (not a perfect example I admit) was meant illustrate how counterspells by there nature have a similar timing based drawback, drawing Counterspell when a 5/6 Goyf is attacking you doesn't do much.
I am more then comfortable with were control is now but I don't believe Counterspell will destroy modern like a lot of people seem to think it will.
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In play: Jund Death Shadow, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Stompy, Ponza
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
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I personally love playing control decks, especially UB control. Alot of people are saying the traditional control, especially UB control is dead. I think the reason why UB control is dead is mostly because of Liliana of the Veil. I find that if she comes into play and she isn't countered or destroyed right away, she can run away with the game by forcing you to discard and then making you sacrifice half of your lands. Her 3 mana cost is also an enormous problem.
I seen alot of people say control is dead because of the number of different aggro decks you need to deal with and there is no sliver bullet to deal with all of them. But I think that if Liliana is removed from the game, UB control might be viable again.
(I'm curious if something will be release in Battle for Zendikar that might revive UB control)
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
There's also not much incentive for control to play only 2 colors instead of 3-color. U/B has negligible upsides compared to Grixis Control, which is viable.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
But I think a deck running 12-14 Counterspells and the rest as Red/Black Removal is suffice. I seen the older decks run almost entirely counterspells, but shifting the proportion of counterspells more towards RB removal?
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
You use UB control as a to represent Control and then to criticize the power level of Liliana of the Veil. This is not appropriate.
If UB control dose not work, why not splash with the 3rd color?
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
Yah, I obviously wrong about the "Traditional Control" part (I just looked it up).
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
If you can use White color, this is a good card to deal with Liliana
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Also American control was still a tier 1 deck for a year or two after lily was printed.
Also, while Lily is a very powerful card there are many ways to interact with her. You can counter her, make the opponent discard her, burn her, swing into her, destroy her, abuse the GY, pithing needle her, ect.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Later down the line control go faeries, which mind you, was a permanent based control deck. Then it was the best deck and standard and renewed the whole "we wont print control cards" fast forward and jace happens (mistake, banned) then they finally, perposefully, print a control card. Mana Leak in magic 2011.
And to this date. They have not printed a "good" counterspell. Look at the commands that were printed. Every single one of them that wasnt blue has been used. They made them bad counters.
Yes good control cards have been printed. Tasi, Kcommand. All the same, no "Powerful" counterspell. WHich is perfectly fine by me, that just isnt where blue is anymore. Its clear that black is now the color of control, and blue is the color of tempo.
No, BFZ will probably not help traditional control and raise UB to the levels Grixis enjoys from K.Command. Enjoy the horrible UB
mill whatever slapped on a tentacle rape creature.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
edited: I'm a moron.
Except Grixis is a Midrange deck that is incorrectly called a Control deck, not a Control deck. I agree about UB being just worse than Grixis in most cases though.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Valanarch: I largely agree with you although I have taken to calling it Midrange/control. It is more control-y then Jund/k but much more of a midrange deck then something like WUR control.
Side note: Counterspell is not why Legacy is blue based, Brainstorm and co is why legacy is blue based. Counterspell would be fine in modern, we already have Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf and turn 3 Karns.
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
Honestly Liliana can claim even more victims for all I care but Im not the most neutral person on that matter.
By the way ban talk is forbidden outside of the designated thread which is what the OP is implying. Just an information to steer the thread into a different direction.
Agreed and it's baffling. Discarding cards and sacrificing creatures and permanents are all control tools the last time I checked. Or are those suddenly aggro or combo tools now?
And the reason for that is simple. Board-control is what this game has become about and black is far better suited for that than blue can ever hope to be. Simply because blue cannot actually interact with the board besides bouncing stuff which is notoriously bad outside of some tempo strategies since it's card disadvantage.
It's no coincidence that the best shells at board-control always find their way to the top and stay there. Mono-Black Devotion and Abzan as the most recent Standard examples and Jund, Abzan and nowadays also Grixis Control for Modern ones.
The receipt and basic principles are simple:
Mono-Black Devotion really captured it the best. A mono-colored deck consisting of only 3 things: powerful and efficient removal/disruption, really powerful threats(I count Underworld Connections in this too) and lands to cast everything. So simple on the surface but it was enough to make it into the dominating monster that it was.
Jund in Modern was/is in the same boat. It was also dominating at one point and is still one of the best decks. It plays those 3 things too. It just needs to dip into 3 colors to get those things.
People wonder why Midrange specifically has become the most powerful archetype well here is why. It simply embodies this basic concept the best.
Secondly, I can play around Thoughtsieze? I can answer Abrupt Decay? No. There are plenty of cards in modern I can't play around, hell the format is built on them.
Last point: The control player only runs 4 counterspells, they don't always have one in hand and open mana. Beside any magic player who knows how to play against control knows how to bait out counterspells and land they threats they really want.
Counterspell was fine for over 10 years, it will be fine in modern. But we are getting off topic here.
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
Yah, I agree, Creeping Tar Pit is definitely great for UB control and Grixis control would definitely be a tier 1 deck.
But to the no good counter spells printed recently, don't we have remand, cryptic?
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Control cannot exist where threats are wide and diverse. It works in T2 because T2 is ***** and even a couple mediocre counterspells and removals are enough to control that field. It "works" in Legacy because CounterTop hits 90% of all spells played in Legacy and FoW takes care of the remaining 10%.
It doesn't work in Modern because there are three savage aggro decks, three swarm strategies that don't really care for losing a piece so long as they reach critical mass and a powerful combo deck that plays the same quality control as "control" decks.
Liliana is most often seen in midrange decks and the only thing Modern control decks have a good record against, is midrange decks.
Yeah, Grixis is a lot like WUR Flash used to be like back in the day.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I would love you to explain the draw back of counterspell. It is not its double color cost either. This is not 1999 where hitting double color was difficult. In Modern hitting double color is easy, maybe too easy.
Counterspell is an unconditional counter. Something Wotc has gotten away from under 3 mana.
Also,
You mention counterspells and then talk about removal spells. Different animals.
At the Op, LotV didnt kill control, just changed it. Blue mages are having a hard time adjusting. So they complain control is dead.
I will say though that Grixis Control is just as enjoyable to play as traditional control decks so at least there's that.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
I am more then comfortable with were control is now but I don't believe Counterspell will destroy modern like a lot of people seem to think it will.
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm