MTG Salvation

I mean, besides the obvious weakness to Pyroclasm - it was a deck that was actually fast enough to race the combo decks, after all, and no less consistent than, say, Amulet combo...

This has been bugging me lately. I was just wondering if anyone had tried it, and what their lists/results were. For reference, here is the old standard list:



...and here is a REALLY rough version of what it could be like in modern (without the burn, I was just seeing how fast I could get it, and nevermind the lands for the moment, just a concept):



I know that my list looks a lot different than the original, but the strategy is essentially the same - dump critters and pump them, pyrrhic-style. I think Boros is a better idea than straight R, mostly because Accorder Paladin and Boros Elite are awesome, but I could be wrong about that. I could be wrong entirely about the deck being any good, for that matter! But basically, I think that with just a bit of tweaking you could easily make the deck competitive. The disadvantages are being bad against decks that flood the ground (Collected Company variants, mostly), raw inconsistency (like half the decks in modern), and Pyroclasm, while the advantages are insane speed (T3 is not unheard of) and being basically impervious to non-sweeper sideboard cards.

Anyone have any thoughts? If I get the chance, I'll knock a real version together and make a primer - but only if someone convinces me it is worth the effort (and the $50 for the Kytheons)...

There have been people who've tried it, but it just ends up being a less consistent aggro deck than something like Affinity.

Actually, Atarka's Command is the perfect burn spell for the deck - you can afford to run a bunch of silly lands (given the nature of the deck), so mana shouldn't be an issue. You could run Shrapnel Blast and/or Goblin Grenade instead, but Atarka's is often 6-9 damage - I can't believe I didn't see it originally...

Because it didnt really work well in standard either. It was cute there and cuter here. Simple put. Way to easy to disrupt, and it also has far too little reward.

I actually just versed this deck at a local tourney. While it's lighting fast, it dies to any kind of disruption.

at the end, is always a worst affinity deck

Ok, so I did a bit more testing - well, mostly playing against myself and my gauntlet decks (Burn, Abzan CC and MR, Grixis, RG Tron, URG Twin, Jund), and the deck is actually pretty good with some mods - it is most definitely not a "worse Affinity/Robots", acting more like Burn or Elves. A few notes from my experiments (different list at the end):

• Accorder Paladin was seriously underperforming later in testing. It was the only 2-drop high-impact creature (Bushwhacker is really a spell, functionally speaking), so it eventually had to go.
• The deck aims to kill by T4 at the latest, so the mana base can support just about anything.
• The main thing it has over Burn and Affinity is that the format is full of decks that durdle T1-3 (Serum Visions, Ancient Stirrings, and so on), but can be very interactive from 3 on. Electrolyze is an awesome 3-for-1, but it is sad to see it T3 when facing down death anyway. Tron was surprisingly OK, given their colored mana difficulties - sure, they main Pyroclasm (though many aren't anymore, leaning heavier on O-stone - I tested against a version with 4 Pyros main), but they often can't cast it until T3...
• Other than Tron, there are very few Pyroclasms around, sideboards included. The same can't be said for Stony Silence, Ancient Grudge, Rest in Peace, Blood Moon, or Leyline of Sanctity. Basically, although it is certainly weak to some sideboard cards, those cards are not particularly popular - back when Delver was enemy #1, Forked Bolt would have been a problem, but now that it is gone there are surprisingly few sweepers/multi-target-burn spells running around.
• Single-target removal is pretty much useless against you - it is too much tempo loss, and there are too many ways to take advantage of the critical mass of little critters. They can't both kill your "high profile" things and drop threats - well, they could, but the commonly played disruption (Bolt, Decay, Path, discard) is tempo-negative, especially on the play.
• Consistency is definitely an issue, even more than with Amulet combo - the strategy inherently does not mulligan well, due to its all-in-critical-mass nature. It shares this trait with Burn, so I'm not sure that's that big of a point against it.
• Blockers aren't really an issue, given that most early creatures serve utility purposes - when Bob blocks a 3/1 goblin, you're doing pretty OK. Lingering Souls can be an exception, depending on your draw, but there are potential SB options for the token/flood decks (Legion Loyalist comes to mind).
• Kuldotha Rebirth should probably be a 3-of; it is for all intents and purposes Legendary, since drawing 2 really sucks. Sure, it is really powerful, but it isn't actually essential - the real strategy comes from just dumping your hand and attacking with a bunch of pumped weenies.
• Kytheon is usually a house.
• Atarka's Command was an awesome addition - it is often 7 damage on turn 3 (leading to a surprising amount of "attack you for 19" on T3).
• I really want to try a singleton Goblin Grenade, but haven't yet.
• Not a fan of the artifact mana, but it may be a necessary evil. Springleaf Drum in particular is annoying, but you need a critical mass for Rebirth - and that card is certainly worth it, even if I did cut back to 3.
• I've been going back and forth on numbers of Boros Recruit, Wild Nacatl, and Steppe Lynx - with the new/proper mana base, they are all good and viable. The Lynx can be astounding, but situational (and shares the Recruit's weaknesses), the Nacatl is sometimes a 2/2, and the Recruit is weak to Pyroclasm effects. Requires further testing.
• Most importantly, the strategy has teeth - it is far more resilient and consistent than it first appears, mainly because of the new cards and the nature of the meta. Kytheon and Atarka's Command really do a number on a lot of decks, and this deck can flip Kytheon T2 very, very often. Launch the Fleet has been situationally amazing, but not always - it has a place, but I'm not sure how many to run (2 is probably right). It doesn't get pumped by Bushwhacker, but it is amazing with Signal Pest, so...

Below is the version I've been messing with - I've only played about 50 solitaire games (7-ish with each of the gauntlet decks), so I have no hard results to claim, but I think it is worth exploring further. Kytheon and Command really do make a strategy like this a lot better - I tried pulling both, and I saw a lot more problems, so maybe it is just that there hasn't been a critical mass yet. That, or my results are too self-biased! I'll keep working on it, and try to scrounge up the cards to do a run or two on MTGO:



Oh, and potential sideboard cards (long list, I know):

• Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
  
• Kataki, War's Wage
  
• Burrenton Forge-Tender
  
• Legion Loyalist
  
• Magus of the Moon
  
• Path to Exile
  
• Boros Charm
  
• Destructive Revelry
  
• Smash to Smithereens
  
• Forked Bolt
  
• Grafdigger's Cage
  
• Eidolon of the Great Revel
  
• Searing Blaze
  
• Grim Lavamancer
  
• Kor Firewalker

Quote from Badd Business »

There have been people who've tried it, but it just ends up being a less consistent aggro deck than something like Affinity.

Quote from LeviatanCL »

at the end, is always a worst affinity deck

I agree with these two. Your list looks nearly like Affinity without the bombs - Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer, Etched Champion, manlands, Cranial Plating. Your list could possibly be slightly faster, but Affinity is more resilient (hard to say that against anything else )

That being said, when the deck was in Standard, there was a guy who I know played in an Extended 51 person PTQ in Alabama (I think), and won 1st place with a list that was nearly 100% Standard legal at the time. The small exception was that he had Magma Spray, as Kitchen Finks was a pretty popular card at the time.

I don't understand why people are trying to plug more dudes in to the deck.
If you are adding anything then Kytheon and Goblin Loyalist is what you want.

Springleaf drum should be left to affinity. You don't have the mana to waste on 1 mana rocks. In fact you want 4 Opals. Its another 0 mana artifact for rebirth to use, with the ability to turn itself into 3 goblins so you can play another.

Boros elite feels like something to be cute with. This deck is basically all in goblins. Atarka's Command is really good with this deck and probably just takes the place of bolts because you should be running 4 grenades.

I feel like sticking to the original list and just replacing cards with a strictly better version card is the way to go.

Maybe something ulta-aggro like that? The deck clearly wants to dump its hand and rush the opponent as quickly as possible. There's no reason to slow roll, since you just outright lose the midgame and lategame, so might as well max out on turn 1 mana accel (SSG and Mox Opals).

I don't see a reasonable SB option vs Pyroclasm other than just boarding into more burn spells. Spellskite is to soak up enemy Bolts, Electrolyzes and so on. Searing Blaze and Forked Bolt are to help you stomp through early blockers. Skullcrack is vs Finks and such. Stingscourger just bounces awkward 2cc-4cc blockers so you can take opponent for a tempo hit and smash stuff through. Gurmag who?

Green splash for Atarka seems good too.

There is a recent article on TCGPlayer about a couple of modern rouge decks and the very first one is a 4th place of a PPTQ utilising kuldotha rebirth - here is a link: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=12774&writer=Adam+Yurchick

Im building a deck for fun and it currently looks like this:



Im trying to be even more burn aggressive with the 5 damage spells.

Stop necroing old threads!
And for the record food chain is not modern legal.