now that that is out of the way, why is it that every deck i see or build with blue in it starts as a base of 4 serum visions. it also seems like every blue deck also then goes 4 lightning bolt. I would say close to 50% of the meta runs these 2 cards in full playsets even if they're not focused in either color, Jund, UR Delver, All grixis variants, Jeskai builds from conntrol to tempo to aggro, Temur Delver, Sacapshift pretty much the only major deck I can think of that doesn't run either of these cards is Junk or Mono Black. even Black builds I've seen have had red splashed for Lightning Bolt.
So why is serum visions so much ahead of all other U cantrips, and other cards like Visions of beyond get next to no love, even though in the later game when you top deck it it could be so much better? I know why Thought Scour and Gritaxin probe isn't replacing serum but why none of the others? is scry that powerful?
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Well, for your specific example, Visions of Beyond is awful. You said that it's good in the late game. Now, watch some Modern matches and see how many get to the point that at least one graveyard has 20 cards in it. There won't be very many. Also, cantrips being useful in the late game is basically the same as cantrips being bad. If someone has gone through 1/3 (minimum) of their deck, then that person has probably found all of the cards that they need. It's possible that Visions of Beyond would be good in this scenario, but it's pretty unlikely.
Scry really is that powerful. Deck manipulation is a very powerful effect. Most pro players say scry 1 is approximately 0.4-0.5 cards, so Serum Visions is comparable to:
Legitimate Answer: Well yeah. I'm sure someone else can explain it better, but Serum Visions always digs you three cards into the deck unless you hit a card you need, where as Visions of Beyond is hit or miss (And with all the Delve flying around now, it's a lot harder to reach the 20 cards than ever, ESPECIALLY in Non-Mill decks). A T1 Visons drawing a Land and scrying away two more land is much better than a T1 Visions of Beyond hitting a land and you draw land for two more turns.
It doesn't help that every Cantrip better than Serum Visions is banned, because honestly Serum Visions kinda sucks.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
now that that is out of the way, why is it that every deck i see or build with blue in it starts as a base of 4 serum visions. it also seems like every blue deck also then goes 4 lightning bolt. I would say close to 50% of the meta runs these 2 cards in full playsets even if they're not focused in either color, Jund, UR Delver, All grixis variants, Jeskai builds from conntrol to tempo to aggro, Temur Delver, Sacapshift pretty much the only major deck I can think of that doesn't run either of these cards is Junk or Mono Black. even Black builds I've seen have had red splashed for Lightning Bolt.
So why is serum visions so much ahead of all other U cantrips, and other cards like Visions of beyond get next to no love, even though in the later game when you top deck it it could be so much better? I know why Thought Scour and Gritaxin probe isn't replacing serum but why none of the others? is scry that powerful?
Serum visions just makes your deck much more consistant. In Magic you win by playing cards. When you build your deck you put in good cards, but some are better than others (for the most part). If you had the choice to draw your best cards every game you probably would, and this is what Serum Visions allows you to do. It filters through your deck at all stages of the game and helps get your to your best cards.
Cards like Visions of Beyond are only situationally good. What if your deck never gets to the lategame when it lets you draw 3? You will be stuck with a clunky one mana cantrip which you don't want to be playing or drawing. The reason is sort of the same for things like Sleight of Hand. Visions digs you three cards deep for one mana where Sleight only digs two deep, so this is why Visions is played before Sleight in most cases (there are still many more reasons for this).
The same goes for Lightning Bolt. It is the best of the best at what it does, so you want to be playing the best cards you can. It pairs well with other good blue cards like Snapcaster Mage, which is why you see these cheap powerful red and blue cards together a lot.
now that that is out of the way, why is it that every deck i see or build with blue in it starts as a base of 4 serum visions. it also seems like every blue deck also then goes 4 lightning bolt. I would say close to 50% of the meta runs these 2 cards in full playsets even if they're not focused in either color, Jund, UR Delver, All grixis variants, Jeskai builds from conntrol to tempo to aggro, Temur Delver, Sacapshift pretty much the only major deck I can think of that doesn't run either of these cards is Junk or Mono Black. even Black builds I've seen have had red splashed for Lightning Bolt.
So why is serum visions so much ahead of all other U cantrips, and other cards like Visions of beyond get next to no love, even though in the later game when you top deck it it could be so much better? I know why Thought Scour and Gritaxin probe isn't replacing serum but why none of the others? is scry that powerful?
Serum Visions allows you to "dig twice" after you draw a card. So in other words, you get to see three cards for one mana. No other cantrip does this in modern.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
2 reasons:
1) when you're digging for something, it pushes up to 3 irrelevant cards out of the way provided you have another draw step or draw spell
2) it replaces itself with a card (hence why Index and Mystic Speculation are junk)
Visions of Beyond is equivalent to Reach Through Mists 95% of the time. The condition for drawing 3 with Visions of Beyond is way harder to fulfill than you'd think, unless you're playing a combo deck that casts cantrips over and over.
Visions of Beyond has been tried after Treasure Cruise got banned, but it never really took off as far as I know. The better engine turned out to be Life from the Loam and some potential retrace spells like Flame Jab. I think Visions is playable as like a 2 of, but it is still a gamble on the viability of it.
So why is serum visions so much ahead of all other U cantrips, and other cards like Visions of beyond get next to no love, even though in the later game when you top deck it it could be so much better?
How could it be so much better? Unless someone is playing a deck that deliberately causes it to happen (e.g. Mill), when do you actually see a game, even the "later game," where a player has 20 or more cards in their graveyard? Almost none. Unless your deck is specifically configured to make use of it, Visions of Beyond 99.999% of the time will simply say "draw a card." Do you not think that "draw a scry, then scry 2" is better than simply "draw a card"?
I know why Thought Scour and Gritaxin probe isn't replacing serum but why none of the others? is scry that powerful?
What are all of these "others" you refer to? Because all of the other 1-mana cantrips are basically drawing a card and nothing else particularly relevant happening (e.g. Fleeting Distraction) barring some very specific circumstances (e.g. Twisted Image is good at taking out a Spellskite). It's kind of like wondering why Dissolve is better than Cancel.
The only card really competing with Serum Visions is Sleight of Hand. The problem Sleight of Hand has is that you have to choose one or the other rather than having the option to keep both, so its use is limited to the all-in combo decks (e.g. Ad Nauseam, Storm) that really want to find specific cards; this is why Twin used to play it back when it was all-in on the combo but has since dropped it after moving to a more tempo style.
Preordain is banned in Modern, so there is actually no debate.
Serum Visions was worth nothing prior to the bannings of Ponder and Preordain. Once they were banned, it became the best one to use. If it was banned, most players would replace it with Sleight of Hand.
As others have said, Serum Visions digs deeper than any other one mana cantrip, without needing additional set up like Visions of Beyond. While Visions is nice to have after turn 15, Serum can be used at any point of the game, making it a great first turn play.
Thought Scour is coming into it's own due to delve being a big player, but it was also widely used in Storm, to help fuel Pyromancer Ascension and Past in Flames. Gitaxian Probe has been played since it's printing due to it's ability to cantrip, reveal the opponents hand, and do it all for free at the same time. Sleight of Hand is really only played in focused combo decks, and it wouldn't be played if we had a better option, but as it is, allowing you choose out of the top two cards is about as good as it gets in Modern.
Ponder - Rearranges top 3 cards and allows you to draw. If you do not like them, shuffle and draw anyways. BANNED
Preordain - Rearranges top 2 cards and allows you to draw. Scry THEN draw allowing you to draw what you want. BANNED
Serum visions - Draws a card (cantrip) and then scry 2.
Serum visions is good simply because it isn't banned and does what the other 2 card does but not as well. If either was unbanned, it would replace serum visions in a blink of an eye.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
No. It actually is okay and ever so slightly better than Telling Time, but it just isn't where you want to be in most decks. I actually play a singleton in my Ad Nauseam deck along with 4 Serum Visions, 4 Sleight of Hand, and 3 Spoils of the Vault and I have rarely been happy to see Anticipate. In fact, usually I am disgusted to see it. I haven't played Ad Nauseam recently outside of play testing, so if I play it at a tournament, I will end up cutting the Anticipate for something else.
In a deck like Scapeshift, I feel like some number of Anticipates is fine. Otherwise, no, just no (love).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
anticipate is just about the perfect example of the difference ONE can make--be it one mana, one card deeper, one damage, etc. impulse would probably break combo in modern wide open again; it would certainly shift the metagame significantly. anticipate is just not quite good enough to see play.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Serum Visions is amazing because by having 4 in your deck you immediately whack off a whole load of percentage points for amount of times you lose from not especially drawing lands, and to a lesser extent drawing too many lands. Think about how powerful that is, and how many non blue decks wish they could keep a one or two land hand with full confidence that they probably aren't going to miss the third and fourth land drop.
Above is the real answer.
Serum visions lets you keep a LOT of otherwise questionable opening hands (read: 1-land hands) because the odds of having the next FOUR cards (the drawn card, the 2 scry cards, and the card you draw turn 2) be non-land are very low. Similarly, you don't have to be as nervous about keeping a 4-land hand, because unless the next 4 cards are also lands you'll for sure draw some business by turn 2. This reduces mulligans and lets you cut a land or two from the deck.
so what Percent of a land is each cantrip especially like Serum Visions? If you run a full play set can you effectively cut 1 land, 2 or even 3? in a basic combo/control like Twin, or Grixis Variants ect currently I have 24 lands +4 visions and the highest cost spell is 4 how many lands can be cut due to Serums draw +scry?
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so what Percent of a land is each cantrip especially like Serum Visions? If you run a full play set can you effectively cut 1 land, 2 or even 3? in a basic combo/control like Twin, or Grixis Variants ect currently I have 24 lands +4 visions and the highest cost spell is 4 how many lands can be cut due to Serums draw +scry?
There was a simple equation I found not to long ago that counted cantrips or library manipulation as .25 land, and mana dorks as .50. To cut one land from a deck for the soul purpose would necessitate 4 SV or two mana dorks at the minimum in this system.
the rule of thumb from legacy is +2 cantrips, -1 land. Granted, we're talking about brainstorm and ponder, not serum visions and thought scour. On the other hand, being on-curve is more important even in legacy than it is in modern, since the mana denial and taxing is so much stronger, so there is that. I personally still stick to the +2/-1 method, and it hasn't ever come back to bite me.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
so what Percent of a land is each cantrip especially like Serum Visions? If you run a full play set can you effectively cut 1 land, 2 or even 3? in a basic combo/control like Twin, or Grixis Variants ect currently I have 24 lands +4 visions and the highest cost spell is 4 how many lands can be cut due to Serums draw +scry?
Well, the grixis control lists running around mostly have 23 lands (some are 22). The UWR lists almost universally run 26. Those lists run cantrips but usually not serum visions or thought scour, so they aren't turn 1 cantrips. That leads to the conclusion that the full set of 8 will buy you roughly 3 land slots.
Personally, I think the 4 visions can probably buy you 2 lands at most, but the 4 thought scour can probably only buy you 1. Visions does, after all, show you 3 times as many cards.
Visions is not brainstorm by any means, but in a strictly "finding mana on turn 1" way it is arguably better. If you're sitting with a 1-lander and your next three draws are non-lands, visions just saved you 3 turns of mana screw. In the same situation with brainstorm, you'll just "brainstorm lock" yourself for 2 turns. Even if you get 1 land off brainstorm, you still know you have zero chance of getting your 3rd land drop unless that land is a fetch.
true, but brainstorm is infinitely better in two-land hands, especially those that have at least one fetch. THAT is the real reason--both modern and legacy decks generally want to hit three or four lands in play depending on the build, but not many more than that. hitting that sweet spot to where you can consistently hit the 3rd/4th land drops when you need them but having gas when you don't is what sets brainstorm apart from the modern legal cantrips. The best modern legal cantrip for finding land is ancient stirrings followed by sleight of hand.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
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now that that is out of the way, why is it that every deck i see or build with blue in it starts as a base of 4 serum visions. it also seems like every blue deck also then goes 4 lightning bolt. I would say close to 50% of the meta runs these 2 cards in full playsets even if they're not focused in either color, Jund, UR Delver, All grixis variants, Jeskai builds from conntrol to tempo to aggro, Temur Delver, Sacapshift pretty much the only major deck I can think of that doesn't run either of these cards is Junk or Mono Black. even Black builds I've seen have had red splashed for Lightning Bolt.
So why is serum visions so much ahead of all other U cantrips, and other cards like Visions of beyond get next to no love, even though in the later game when you top deck it it could be so much better? I know why Thought Scour and Gritaxin probe isn't replacing serum but why none of the others? is scry that powerful?
Scry really is that powerful. Deck manipulation is a very powerful effect. Most pro players say scry 1 is approximately 0.4-0.5 cards, so Serum Visions is comparable to:
U Sorcery
Draw 2
which is pretty powerful.
Long Answer: Hell Yes.
Legitimate Answer: Well yeah. I'm sure someone else can explain it better, but Serum Visions always digs you three cards into the deck unless you hit a card you need, where as Visions of Beyond is hit or miss (And with all the Delve flying around now, it's a lot harder to reach the 20 cards than ever, ESPECIALLY in Non-Mill decks). A T1 Visons drawing a Land and scrying away two more land is much better than a T1 Visions of Beyond hitting a land and you draw land for two more turns.
It doesn't help that every Cantrip better than Serum Visions is banned, because honestly Serum Visions kinda sucks.
Cards like Visions of Beyond are only situationally good. What if your deck never gets to the lategame when it lets you draw 3? You will be stuck with a clunky one mana cantrip which you don't want to be playing or drawing. The reason is sort of the same for things like Sleight of Hand. Visions digs you three cards deep for one mana where Sleight only digs two deep, so this is why Visions is played before Sleight in most cases (there are still many more reasons for this).
The same goes for Lightning Bolt. It is the best of the best at what it does, so you want to be playing the best cards you can. It pairs well with other good blue cards like Snapcaster Mage, which is why you see these cheap powerful red and blue cards together a lot.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Serum Visions allows you to "dig twice" after you draw a card. So in other words, you get to see three cards for one mana. No other cantrip does this in modern.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
1) when you're digging for something, it pushes up to 3 irrelevant cards out of the way provided you have another draw step or draw spell
2) it replaces itself with a card (hence why Index and Mystic Speculation are junk)
Visions of Beyond is equivalent to Reach Through Mists 95% of the time. The condition for drawing 3 with Visions of Beyond is way harder to fulfill than you'd think, unless you're playing a combo deck that casts cantrips over and over.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
The Blistercoil Weird combo deck also plays Visions of Beyond.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
What are all of these "others" you refer to? Because all of the other 1-mana cantrips are basically drawing a card and nothing else particularly relevant happening (e.g. Fleeting Distraction) barring some very specific circumstances (e.g. Twisted Image is good at taking out a Spellskite). It's kind of like wondering why Dissolve is better than Cancel.
The only card really competing with Serum Visions is Sleight of Hand. The problem Sleight of Hand has is that you have to choose one or the other rather than having the option to keep both, so its use is limited to the all-in combo decks (e.g. Ad Nauseam, Storm) that really want to find specific cards; this is why Twin used to play it back when it was all-in on the combo but has since dropped it after moving to a more tempo style.
Serum Visions was worth nothing prior to the bannings of Ponder and Preordain. Once they were banned, it became the best one to use. If it was banned, most players would replace it with Sleight of Hand.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
Thought Scour is coming into it's own due to delve being a big player, but it was also widely used in Storm, to help fuel Pyromancer Ascension and Past in Flames. Gitaxian Probe has been played since it's printing due to it's ability to cantrip, reveal the opponents hand, and do it all for free at the same time. Sleight of Hand is really only played in focused combo decks, and it wouldn't be played if we had a better option, but as it is, allowing you choose out of the top two cards is about as good as it gets in Modern.
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Preordain - Rearranges top 2 cards and allows you to draw. Scry THEN draw allowing you to draw what you want. BANNED
Serum visions - Draws a card (cantrip) and then scry 2.
Serum visions is good simply because it isn't banned and does what the other 2 card does but not as well. If either was unbanned, it would replace serum visions in a blink of an eye.
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
No. It actually is okay and ever so slightly better than Telling Time, but it just isn't where you want to be in most decks. I actually play a singleton in my Ad Nauseam deck along with 4 Serum Visions, 4 Sleight of Hand, and 3 Spoils of the Vault and I have rarely been happy to see Anticipate. In fact, usually I am disgusted to see it. I haven't played Ad Nauseam recently outside of play testing, so if I play it at a tournament, I will end up cutting the Anticipate for something else.
In a deck like Scapeshift, I feel like some number of Anticipates is fine. Otherwise, no, just no (love).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Above is the real answer.
Serum visions lets you keep a LOT of otherwise questionable opening hands (read: 1-land hands) because the odds of having the next FOUR cards (the drawn card, the 2 scry cards, and the card you draw turn 2) be non-land are very low. Similarly, you don't have to be as nervous about keeping a 4-land hand, because unless the next 4 cards are also lands you'll for sure draw some business by turn 2. This reduces mulligans and lets you cut a land or two from the deck.
There was a simple equation I found not to long ago that counted cantrips or library manipulation as .25 land, and mana dorks as .50. To cut one land from a deck for the soul purpose would necessitate 4 SV or two mana dorks at the minimum in this system.
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Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Well, the grixis control lists running around mostly have 23 lands (some are 22). The UWR lists almost universally run 26. Those lists run cantrips but usually not serum visions or thought scour, so they aren't turn 1 cantrips. That leads to the conclusion that the full set of 8 will buy you roughly 3 land slots.
Personally, I think the 4 visions can probably buy you 2 lands at most, but the 4 thought scour can probably only buy you 1. Visions does, after all, show you 3 times as many cards.
Visions is not brainstorm by any means, but in a strictly "finding mana on turn 1" way it is arguably better. If you're sitting with a 1-lander and your next three draws are non-lands, visions just saved you 3 turns of mana screw. In the same situation with brainstorm, you'll just "brainstorm lock" yourself for 2 turns. Even if you get 1 land off brainstorm, you still know you have zero chance of getting your 3rd land drop unless that land is a fetch.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm