Back when Vexing Devil first came out, many people shoved him into burn because of his ability to deal 4 dmg up front or be a big creature. Unforunitely for our friend, people realized that having an ability that you can't control isn't always good. Is there no deck that wants to play him that benefits from him dying? Now that Kolaghan's Command is a card, should he be revisited?
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Vexing devil is still good in burn, it basically reads :
R:
your opponent chooses one
- deal 4 damage to target opp
- destroy target creature
- fetch a basic land
as you gonna either deal damage, trade for something or it gonna get pathed
It is still one of the better first drops for burn. Late game, though, it's not as good, but still, playing 2 or 3 of them in burn is still something real.
Vexing devil is still good in burn, it basically reads :
R:
your opponent chooses one
- deal 4 damage to target opp
- destroy target creature
- fetch a basic land
as you gonna either deal damage, trade for something or it gonna get pathed
It is still one of the better first drops for burn. Late game, though, it's not as good, but still, playing 2 or 3 of them in burn is still something real.
Disagree with this. There are lots of scenarios where opponents can let the 4/3 resolve and you'll never see a point of damage out of it. This includes the fairly common situation of Devil being blocked by Goyf/Tasigur/Angler (especially the latter two, given the rise of Grixis), Devil getting removed by instants, and, the worst case scenario, Devil getting killed by a sorcery-speed removal like Anger of the Gods or Liliana. Devil also gives the opponent one more turn to draw into removal before it can enter combat. The other Burn creatures can all get in damage before they die, and/or can all go into the red zone before the opponent gets a draw step and mainphase. Add to that the general weakness of opponent-chooses mechanics (which doesn't even save Browbeat) and the card just isn't very strong right now.
It is still one of the better first drops for burn. Late game, though, it's not as good, but still, playing 2 or 3 of them in burn is still something real.
Disagree with this. There are lots of scenarios where opponents can let the 4/3 resolve and you'll never see a point of damage out of it. This includes the fairly common situation of Devil being blocked by Goyf/Tasigur/Angler (especially the latter two, given the rise of Grixis), Devil getting removed by instants, and, the worst case scenario, Devil getting killed by a sorcery-speed removal like Anger of the Gods or Liliana. Devil also gives the opponent one more turn to draw into removal before it can enter combat. The other Burn creatures can all get in damage before they die, and/or can all go into the red zone before the opponent gets a draw step and mainphase.
Should have put more emphasis on the bolded sentence ...
If your opponent gets turn2 anglers/tass, lili or angers consistently, i would love to see their lists ...
and, yes, when you play burn, turn three is considered late game.
Should have put more emphasis on the bolded sentence ...
If your opponent gets turn2 anglers/tass, lili or angers consistently, i would love to see their lists ...
and, yes, when you play burn, turn three is considered late game.
Turn three Angler/Tas is pretty common. If the Burn player is on the draw, then they are facing down the creature on their own turn three, which is right where a Grixis player wants to be (especially if they have any backup behind the creature, whether Bolt, Dispel, Leak, Terminate, etc.).
Turn three is also not late for Burn outside of a goldfish or a completely noninteractive matchup. Assuming your opponent is trying in any way at all to interact with you, those games are probably going to at least turn 5-6. That's not the case in something like the Affinity matchup or against Tron, where the games are more race-oriented. But if your opponent is doing anything at all to interact, turn three is never "late game".
In a meta that is light on removal the card could shine quite brightly. Sadly, Modern is the format of removal, where creatures must pass the bolt test to be considered playable. Due to the mass amount of spot removal that is currently infesting the 1 and 2 cmc slots in most decks, the devil will likely resolve and get killed. It's a one for one trade, which isn't inherently bad, but you just wasted a spell to do no damage in a burn deck. That is not a good situation to be in.
It may be interesting in some UR deck with Stubborn Denial and Disrupting Shoal, but overall, the bad card is bad. (at least in this current meta, there are going to be other cards that are consistently better)
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I hadn't concidered it as a cheap ferocious enabler. The crappy part about that is that there aren't any good ferocious cards outside of Stubborn Denial.
Pretty much any card that gives the opponent choices is going to end up not giving you what you want. Look at Gifts Ungiven! It was changed to be able to NOT give the opponent a choice and is no playable!
The Devil can be played, but there are probably more consistent options that you can be using because the opponent will take life when they have a lot to spare (or take more than one hit from the Devil) and will take the creature when they can remove it.
i have played around with the devil in a vengevine list to fill in the 1 drop spot with gravecrawler, and tasigar as a pseudo 1 drop... vexing devil replaces something,so is that something worse then vexing devil or better. for me in this deck i might as well run goblin guide to try for the faster kill. but i do not own any currently..
In a meta that is light on removal the card could shine quite brightly. Sadly, Modern is the format of removal, where creatures must pass the bolt test to be considered playable. Due to the mass amount of spot removal that is currently infesting the 1 and 2 cmc slots in most decks, the devil will likely resolve and get killed. It's a one for one trade, which isn't inherently bad, but you just wasted a spell to do no damage in a burn deck. That is not a good situation to be in.
Not every creature has to pass the bolt test, especially not a 1-drop (a majority fail). The problem with Vexing Devil being answerable by bolt in the context of burn has do to with the fact that burn needs all of its cards to consistently deal damage. The mere fact that there's a chance Vexing Devil will never get damage in makes it less desirable and of course, bolt is played everywhere.
I wasn't applying the bolt test to the Devil, but more pointing out that the bolt test exists in the format. Bolt is the most played card in the format last I checked, with Path and Dismember not to far behind. As good as Devil looks he is dependent on the removal we run, and being that we all run an abundance, he is going to have a bad day.
All that being said, he still is a sweet card, and can fill in for Goblin Guides if you are on a budget.
Simply put, cards that give your opponent choices are very bad. You want to destroy their lines of play not open up new ones.
But this isn't always true as Tasigur, the golden fang's ability is about opponent's choice and yet it is herald as being a great ability. I think people are being a little to narrow minded with this card. It has been proven to be bad in burn yes, but what about a deck like zoo which can get him out via Collected company?
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Simply put, cards that give your opponent choices are very bad. You want to destroy their lines of play not open up new ones.
But this isn't always true as Tasigur, the golden fang's ability is about opponent's choice and yet it is herald as being a great ability. I think people are being a little to narrow minded with this card. It has been proven to be bad in burn yes, but what about a deck like zoo which can get him out via Collected company?
Tasigur is good because it is goyf number 5-6. The recursion is sometimes nice, sometimes garbage. You run it because it is a 1 mana 4/5, that is always going to be good.
Simply put, cards that give your opponent choices are very bad. You want to destroy their lines of play not open up new ones.
But this isn't always true as Tasigur, the golden fang's ability is about opponent's choice and yet it is herald as being a great ability. I think people are being a little to narrow minded with this card. It has been proven to be bad in burn yes, but what about a deck like zoo which can get him out via Collected company?
Tasigur is good because it is goyf number 5-6. The recursion is sometimes nice, sometimes garbage. You run it because it is a 1 mana 4/5, that is always going to be good.
I'm talking about the ability not the creature. The ability is regarded as good even though the opponent picks.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Simply put, cards that give your opponent choices are very bad. You want to destroy their lines of play not open up new ones.
But this isn't always true as Tasigur, the golden fang's ability is about opponent's choice and yet it is herald as being a great ability. I think people are being a little to narrow minded with this card. It has been proven to be bad in burn yes, but what about a deck like zoo which can get him out via Collected company?
Tasigur is good because it is goyf number 5-6. The recursion is sometimes nice, sometimes garbage. You run it because it is a 1 mana 4/5, that is always going to be good.
I'm talking about the ability not the creature. The ability is regarded as good even though the opponent picks.
Not always. I was playing against a grixis control deck. I had vial, cavern of souls, dismember, and 5 lands. I gave him mana leak and killed him through it anyways. He couldn't stop me from doing anything. Also an ability can be good, but a card can still be bad. If tasigur always cost siege rhino mana it would see far less play. It sees play because it is an under costed4/5. The option to get back some card that could be useful when you have nothing to do with mana is gravy, not what makes the card good.
Have you seen the Standard RDW thread when this card was Standard-legal? The established red mages turned crazy and annoyed whenever someone brought this card up and asked why it isn't played.
Was very entertaining to read honestly.
Pretty much any card that gives the opponent choices is going to end up not giving you what you want. Look at Gifts Ungiven! It was changed to be able to NOT give the opponent a choice and is no playable!
The Devil can be played, but there are probably more consistent options that you can be using because the opponent will take life when they have a lot to spare (or take more than one hit from the Devil) and will take the creature when they can remove it.
The first two are modern legal, and because of the nature of this card specifically--choice is an illusion unless you mess it up. The worst piles are the ones where the combo gets half assembled when you untap (like with academy ruins or noxious revival are in the pile, delaying your assemblage a turn), and straight value piles are great and sometimes common--just have four relevant targets for the situation you're trying to address.
Pretty much any card that gives the opponent choices is going to end up not giving you what you want. Look at Gifts Ungiven! It was changed to be able to NOT give the opponent a choice and is no playable!
The Devil can be played, but there are probably more consistent options that you can be using because the opponent will take life when they have a lot to spare (or take more than one hit from the Devil) and will take the creature when they can remove it.
The first two are modern legal, and because of the nature of this card specifically--choice is an illusion unless you mess it up. The worst piles are the ones where the combo gets half assembled when you untap (like with academy ruins or noxious revival are in the pile, delaying your assemblage a turn), and straight value piles are great and sometimes common--just have four relevant targets for the situation you're trying to address.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I meant it as Gifts was printed to say "Search your library for four cards with different names, etc..." and was changed to say "Search your library for up to four cards with different names, etc...". I meant that because of the change it became moreplayable because you could get around the opponents choice aspect of it if need be, ie: Unburial Rites + Iona, Shield of Emeria.
This thread is for Vexing Devil though. I was just trying to use Gifts as an example of how limiting the choices the opponent can make (ie none with choosing only 2 cards) can make the card better. Therefor less choices for opponent = better cards.
Oh yeah, that makes more sense. To be fair the original gifts was printed wrong and according to the rules you could still search and fail to find 4 cards--more of a technicality.
I'm sure vexing devil will rear its head again at some point as a solid include in some deck. Like in some RW weenie strategy that reanimates creatures less than 1/2 cc (forgetting the different cards that do that) it would seem like it could be included. In a shell with something like that, vexing could be a creature, get bolted and be brought back twice--or do 8 damage potentially.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
R:
your opponent chooses one
- deal 4 damage to target opp
- destroy target creature
- fetch a basic land
as you gonna either deal damage, trade for something or it gonna get pathed
It is still one of the better first drops for burn. Late game, though, it's not as good, but still, playing 2 or 3 of them in burn is still something real.
Disagree with this. There are lots of scenarios where opponents can let the 4/3 resolve and you'll never see a point of damage out of it. This includes the fairly common situation of Devil being blocked by Goyf/Tasigur/Angler (especially the latter two, given the rise of Grixis), Devil getting removed by instants, and, the worst case scenario, Devil getting killed by a sorcery-speed removal like Anger of the Gods or Liliana. Devil also gives the opponent one more turn to draw into removal before it can enter combat. The other Burn creatures can all get in damage before they die, and/or can all go into the red zone before the opponent gets a draw step and mainphase. Add to that the general weakness of opponent-chooses mechanics (which doesn't even save Browbeat) and the card just isn't very strong right now.
Should have put more emphasis on the bolded sentence ...
If your opponent gets turn2 anglers/tass, lili or angers consistently, i would love to see their lists ...
and, yes, when you play burn, turn three is considered late game.
Turn three Angler/Tas is pretty common. If the Burn player is on the draw, then they are facing down the creature on their own turn three, which is right where a Grixis player wants to be (especially if they have any backup behind the creature, whether Bolt, Dispel, Leak, Terminate, etc.).
Turn three is also not late for Burn outside of a goldfish or a completely noninteractive matchup. Assuming your opponent is trying in any way at all to interact with you, those games are probably going to at least turn 5-6. That's not the case in something like the Affinity matchup or against Tron, where the games are more race-oriented. But if your opponent is doing anything at all to interact, turn three is never "late game".
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Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
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The Devil can be played, but there are probably more consistent options that you can be using because the opponent will take life when they have a lot to spare (or take more than one hit from the Devil) and will take the creature when they can remove it.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Not every creature has to pass the bolt test, especially not a 1-drop (a majority fail). The problem with Vexing Devil being answerable by bolt in the context of burn has do to with the fact that burn needs all of its cards to consistently deal damage. The mere fact that there's a chance Vexing Devil will never get damage in makes it less desirable and of course, bolt is played everywhere.
All that being said, he still is a sweet card, and can fill in for Goblin Guides if you are on a budget.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
The plan was to play 1 drops up the wazzoo that could be sacced to do things, but it ended up being too.... cute.
But this isn't always true as Tasigur, the golden fang's ability is about opponent's choice and yet it is herald as being a great ability. I think people are being a little to narrow minded with this card. It has been proven to be bad in burn yes, but what about a deck like zoo which can get him out via Collected company?
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Tasigur is good because it is goyf number 5-6. The recursion is sometimes nice, sometimes garbage. You run it because it is a 1 mana 4/5, that is always going to be good.
I'm talking about the ability not the creature. The ability is regarded as good even though the opponent picks.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Not always. I was playing against a grixis control deck. I had vial, cavern of souls, dismember, and 5 lands. I gave him mana leak and killed him through it anyways. He couldn't stop me from doing anything. Also an ability can be good, but a card can still be bad. If tasigur always cost siege rhino mana it would see far less play. It sees play because it is an under costed 4/5. The option to get back some card that could be useful when you have nothing to do with mana is gravy, not what makes the card good.
Have you seen the Standard RDW thread when this card was Standard-legal? The established red mages turned crazy and annoyed whenever someone brought this card up and asked why it isn't played.
Was very entertaining to read honestly.
This assessment of gifts is incorrect.
Split the following pile so you don't lose all your creatures: wrath of god, damnation, supreme verdict, day of judgement.
Split the following pile so you don't get locked out of playing a color: unburial rites, iona, shield of emeria
split the following pile so I don't take infinite turns: Time Vault, Voltaic Key, Academy Ruins, Reconstruction
The first two are modern legal, and because of the nature of this card specifically--choice is an illusion unless you mess it up. The worst piles are the ones where the combo gets half assembled when you untap (like with academy ruins or noxious revival are in the pile, delaying your assemblage a turn), and straight value piles are great and sometimes common--just have four relevant targets for the situation you're trying to address.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I meant it as Gifts was printed to say "Search your library for four cards with different names, etc..." and was changed to say "Search your library for up to four cards with different names, etc...". I meant that because of the change it became more playable because you could get around the opponents choice aspect of it if need be, ie: Unburial Rites + Iona, Shield of Emeria.
This thread is for Vexing Devil though. I was just trying to use Gifts as an example of how limiting the choices the opponent can make (ie none with choosing only 2 cards) can make the card better. Therefor less choices for opponent = better cards.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I'm sure vexing devil will rear its head again at some point as a solid include in some deck. Like in some RW weenie strategy that reanimates creatures less than 1/2 cc (forgetting the different cards that do that) it would seem like it could be included. In a shell with something like that, vexing could be a creature, get bolted and be brought back twice--or do 8 damage potentially.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero