Unban all the cards, make the upcoming Pro Tour the last Modern Pro Tour ever and never touch the banlist ever again. Because let's be real everyone just wants the banlist to fulfill their personal agenda, nobody wants it to change for the benefit of the format.
The problem with this thinking is every player has a little bit different desire or vision for the format, so people are suggesting bans and unbans to follow their vision. Some are upset not everyone sees it their way.
The only way Wotc unbans everything is if they are going to give up on the format, Which I dont see happening this soon.
Quote from Spsiegel1987 »
BBE into an abrupt Decay on an empty board
If you are playing BBE into an empty board, you are either doing it for the 3 extra damage to end the game or are spinning the luck wheel hoping you hit a bolt.
Playing the deck bad shouldnt be brought up when talking about bans or unbans.
So when Jund is hellbent (ya know, the point of the deck), it's supposed to hold BBE for maximum value? There is not point in talking about either the worst possible outcome or the christmasland outcome when talking about an unban. BBE is going to hit Abrupt Decay a lot. It's also going to hit K-Command or Lily a lot - it's a matter of understanding that both are possible outcomes and taking the good with the bad.
I disagree Jund plays to be hellbent. If you only have BBE in hand and an empty board there really is no reason to play it unless, 1) that extra 3 points of damage from BBE wins the game for you, or 2) you are playing the wheel of luck trying to hit a bolt to end the game along with the BBE damage.
As I said, playing the deck bad should not factor into the discussion.
If the deck is built correctly, 9 times out of 10 BBE is at least a 2 for 1 and possibly can be a 4 for 1.
Also your claim of hitting decay, Kcommand, and Lilly a lot, it all depends on the build. Most builds are running 4 bolts, 2 decays, and 3 of each Lilly and Kcommand (sometimes only 2 Kcommands). That makes the percentages very different. Cascade is a broken mechanic in itself, whcih is why BBE is much more powerful then Rhino in most cases.
Unban all the cards, make the upcoming Pro Tour the last Modern Pro Tour ever and never touch the banlist ever again. Because let's be real everyone just wants the banlist to fulfill their personal agenda, nobody wants it to change for the benefit of the format.
Solid post from the guy who's mad that Jund doesn't get to win 100% of it's matchups.
People DO want things unbanned because they think they'll be good for the format. SOTM, AV, BBE, and SFM all help non-linear decks, and advocates of these cards think that one (or all of them) could help to create more of a balance between linear and non-linear. No one is arguing for ANY cards that are busted beyond belief, and all 4 of these are squarely within the realm of at least possibility. As soon as this thread starts talking about why skullclamp might be fine, sure, then your post will have merit.
Oh so it's not because they have a vault full of Bloodbraid Elf, Stoneforge Mystic, Ancestral Visions, and Sword of the Meeks?
Unban all the cards, make the upcoming Pro Tour the last Modern Pro Tour ever and never touch the banlist ever again. Because let's be real everyone just wants the banlist to fulfill their personal agenda, nobody wants it to change for the benefit of the format.
The problem with this thinking is every player has a little bit different desire or vision for the format, so people are suggesting bans and unbans to follow their vision. Some are upset not everyone sees it their way.
The only way Wotc unbans everything is if they are going to give up on the format, Which I dont see happening this soon.
Quote from Spsiegel1987 »
BBE into an abrupt Decay on an empty board
If you are playing BBE into an empty board, you are either doing it for the 3 extra damage to end the game or are spinning the luck wheel hoping you hit a bolt.
Playing the deck bad shouldnt be brought up when talking about bans or unbans.
So when Jund is hellbent (ya know, the point of the deck), it's supposed to hold BBE for maximum value? There is not point in talking about either the worst possible outcome or the christmasland outcome when talking about an unban. BBE is going to hit Abrupt Decay a lot. It's also going to hit K-Command or Lily a lot - it's a matter of understanding that both are possible outcomes and taking the good with the bad.
I disagree Jund plays to be hellbent. If you only have BBE in hand and an empty board there really is no reason to play it unless, 1) that extra 3 points of damage from BBE wins the game for you, or 2) you are playing the wheel of luck trying to hit a bolt to end the game along with the BBE damage.
As I said, playing the deck bad should not factor into the discussion.
If the deck is built correctly, 9 times out of 10 BBE is at least a 2 for 1 and possibly can be a 4 for 1.
Also your claim of hitting decay, Kcommand, and Lilly a lot, it all depends on the build. Most builds are running 4 bolts, 2 decays, and 3 of each Lilly and Kcommand (sometimes only 2 Kcommands). That makes the percentages very different. Cascade is a broken mechanic in itself, whcih is why BBE is much more powerful then Rhino in most cases.
I honestly can't tell if this post is serious - if you and your opponent are both hellbent and there is no board presence on the opponents side, you'd rather hold BBE for potential value rather than establish your board? That sounds.. suspect. Also, in no way did I say that hitting any of the aforementioned cards is bad at all - you're bringing up best case scenarios and the other guy is bringing up worst case scenarios - NEITHER is good ban list evaluation.
Snapcaster mage makes you pay the cost of every card you want to flashback in a fair way.
Comparing those two cards is very very ignorant.
I am lost on words now.
Let's see what happens on January 19th.
It's not ignorant, you said it'd warp the meta and SFM would see 30% play, Snap forces every blue deck to play with it, and if you're sitting across a steam-vents deck you always have to be aware of the 2 for 1 value it holds. I'm in no way calling Snapcaster Mage broken or asking for that to be banned, in case sensitive people respond to this. Blue would be very weak in modern without Snapcaster, just like how white is used PURELY FOR TWO CARDS and some silverbullet sideboard cards. Dude, as of now, White is almost a nonexistent color outside of a splash in competitive Magic in the modern format, and happens to be the only color without a 2 mana bomb
SFM can't truly do anything until turn 4. Batterskull and swords aren't even usable competitively in Modern right now. I'm still having a lot of trouble getting over your arguments. It's a 2 for 1, but she's a 1/2 beatstick that does nothing without the Skull or Sword. There's no Jitte, there's no legacy shenanigans. I've written all this before, it's not like you'll listen to anyone's opinion but your own though
You can't just say, "SHE'LL SLOT INTO EVERY WHITE DECK" and then turn around and say, "Snapcaster is in every blue deck and used in 35% of Modern decks, but he's not Stoneforge Mystic, you're just being ignorant, silly"
It's fine. Let's keep Modern as it is, and watch combo decks and linear decks rule the format. All GBx decks WILL be tier 2 within a year if no unbans happen and nothing massively changing happens.
Duke Reid, a long time Jund player has abandoned the fair decks for the time being, and Brad Nelson wrote that Jund and fair decks are not in a good spot right now.
The format is fine as it is.
It is diverse as hell which is a great thing so why not enjoy it?
You may be right on linearity(and I believe you are) but then again you may be not.
Talking about speculation how speculative can be the argument of "jund is going to be tier 2 soon"? Very. I won't comment on it no more because it has no basis.
Your arguments lack basis whatsoever.
If you can support showing data that linear and combo take over the format while the last top 8 had a grixis control player and several twins in it you may have me by your side. This cant be proven by the data available though so it is again speculative and simply not true.
About snap read my previous post if you like.
Twin is a combo deck. It's a tempo deck at heart, but it IS a combo deck
I am right about linearity and combo. Take a look at the tier 1 list in MTGsalvation. The only fair, interactive deck is Jund. Bloom/Tron are ramp, combo decks. Burn is fair, but linear. Affinity skirts on fair (it's really not though) and is super linear. Twin, while interactive and a tempo deck, is still a combo deck which is the measuring stick for every new deck that tries to establish itself into tier 1 and tier 2
My argument for Jund doesn't lack, take a look, it's getting into less and less top 8's. It wasn't even a player in Pittsburgh. Yeah, great, I get it, there was an undefeated Abzan deck day 1 which made no headways for day 2
Twin is actually very much reaching POD level tournament results. A tempo deck, but once again, I'll say it again, it is still a combo deck which many decks cannot stop or interact with. Thank god for Twin though, because it keeps combo and linear decks from being even bigger than what it is
I don't think any current deck has come close to winning as many tournaments as Twin, nor reach as many top 8's in tournaments in general for Modern. The summertime was everyone trying out Grixis for a change, since it's shell is so similar to Twin and players were obviously trying something new
About Snap, you still don't bother to read ***** and listen to no one but yourself, there's nothing to debate or discuss against you because it's pointless, you haven't responded to anyone's thoughtful responses in this thread about it (not that I'm calling my arguments thoughtful or elegant)
This entire thread has become pointless on the subject matter of Stoneforge Mystic
And the meta share of Jund is?
Anyone saying jund needs bbe to help it is obviously trying to fullfil a personal agenda then talking sh** about this thread.
Jund going tier 2 is absolute rubbish and still you provided no meta share confirming this theory of yours(which happens to be false).
I am done trying to prove wrong the theory without basis of every person in here who thinks a broken card can be safe.
If you think that provide a YouTube link and try to provide data instead of random theories of yours.
Aren't you the one constantly saying sfm will be in every deck and will destroy the meta, then when asked for evidence you say it's obvious?
Snapcaster mage makes you pay the cost of every card you want to flashback in a fair way.
Comparing those two cards is very very ignorant.
I am lost on words now.
Let's see what happens on January 19th.
It's not ignorant, you said it'd warp the meta and SFM would see 30% play, Snap forces every blue deck to play with it, and if you're sitting across a steam-vents deck you always have to be aware of the 2 for 1 value it holds. I'm in no way calling Snapcaster Mage broken or asking for that to be banned, in case sensitive people respond to this. Blue would be very weak in modern without Snapcaster, just like how white is used PURELY FOR TWO CARDS and some silverbullet sideboard cards. Dude, as of now, White is almost a nonexistent color outside of a splash in competitive Magic in the modern format, and happens to be the only color without a 2 mana bomb
SFM can't truly do anything until turn 4. Batterskull and swords aren't even usable competitively in Modern right now. I'm still having a lot of trouble getting over your arguments. It's a 2 for 1, but she's a 1/2 beatstick that does nothing without the Skull or Sword. There's no Jitte, there's no legacy shenanigans. I've written all this before, it's not like you'll listen to anyone's opinion but your own though
You can't just say, "SHE'LL SLOT INTO EVERY WHITE DECK" and then turn around and say, "Snapcaster is in every blue deck and used in 35% of Modern decks, but he's not Stoneforge Mystic, you're just being ignorant, silly"
It's fine. Let's keep Modern as it is, and watch combo decks and linear decks rule the format. All GBx decks WILL be tier 2 within a year if no unbans happen and nothing massively changing happens.
Duke Reid, a long time Jund player has abandoned the fair decks for the time being, and Brad Nelson wrote that Jund and fair decks are not in a good spot right now.
The format is fine as it is.
It is diverse as hell which is a great thing so why not enjoy it?
You may be right on linearity(and I believe you are) but then again you may be not.
Talking about speculation how speculative can be the argument of "jund is going to be tier 2 soon"? Very. I won't comment on it no more because it has no basis.
Your arguments lack basis whatsoever.
If you can support showing data that linear and combo take over the format while the last top 8 had a grixis control player and several twins in it you may have me by your side. This cant be proven by the data available though so it is again speculative and simply not true.
About snap read my previous post if you like.
Twin is a combo deck. It's a tempo deck at heart, but it IS a combo deck
I am right about linearity and combo. Take a look at the tier 1 list in MTGsalvation. The only fair, interactive deck is Jund. Bloom/Tron are ramp, combo decks. Burn is fair, but linear. Affinity skirts on fair (it's really not though) and is super linear. Twin, while interactive and a tempo deck, is still a combo deck which is the measuring stick for every new deck that tries to establish itself into tier 1 and tier 2
My argument for Jund doesn't lack, take a look, it's getting into less and less top 8's. It wasn't even a player in Pittsburgh. Yeah, great, I get it, there was an undefeated Abzan deck day 1 which made no headways for day 2
Twin is actually very much reaching POD level tournament results. A tempo deck, but once again, I'll say it again, it is still a combo deck which many decks cannot stop or interact with. Thank god for Twin though, because it keeps combo and linear decks from being even bigger than what it is
I don't think any current deck has come close to winning as many tournaments as Twin, nor reach as many top 8's in tournaments in general for Modern. The summertime was everyone trying out Grixis for a change, since it's shell is so similar to Twin and players were obviously trying something new
About Snap, you still don't bother to read ***** and listen to no one but yourself, there's nothing to debate or discuss against you because it's pointless, you haven't responded to anyone's thoughtful responses in this thread about it (not that I'm calling my arguments thoughtful or elegant)
This entire thread has become pointless on the subject matter of Stoneforge Mystic
And the meta share of Jund is?
Anyone saying jund needs bbe to help it is obviously trying to fullfil a personal agenda then talking sh** about this thread.
Jund going tier 2 is absolute rubbish and still you provided no meta share confirming this theory of yours(which happens to be false).
I am done trying to prove wrong the theory without basis of every person in here who thinks a broken card can be safe.
If you think that provide a YouTube link and try to provide data instead of random theories of yours.
Yeah I have a personal agenda, I'm not winning all my games with Jund, my answers deck is defective and isn't beating the format. What's the problem?
Public Mod Note
(ktkenshinx):
Warning for trolling -ktkenshinx-
Unban all the cards, make the upcoming Pro Tour the last Modern Pro Tour ever and never touch the banlist ever again. Because let's be real everyone just wants the banlist to fulfill their personal agenda, nobody wants it to change for the benefit of the format.
The problem with this thinking is every player has a little bit different desire or vision for the format, so people are suggesting bans and unbans to follow their vision. Some are upset not everyone sees it their way.
The only way Wotc unbans everything is if they are going to give up on the format, Which I dont see happening this soon.
Quote from Spsiegel1987 »
BBE into an abrupt Decay on an empty board
If you are playing BBE into an empty board, you are either doing it for the 3 extra damage to end the game or are spinning the luck wheel hoping you hit a bolt.
Playing the deck bad shouldnt be brought up when talking about bans or unbans.
So when Jund is hellbent (ya know, the point of the deck), it's supposed to hold BBE for maximum value? There is not point in talking about either the worst possible outcome or the christmasland outcome when talking about an unban. BBE is going to hit Abrupt Decay a lot. It's also going to hit K-Command or Lily a lot - it's a matter of understanding that both are possible outcomes and taking the good with the bad.
I disagree Jund plays to be hellbent. If you only have BBE in hand and an empty board there really is no reason to play it unless, 1) that extra 3 points of damage from BBE wins the game for you, or 2) you are playing the wheel of luck trying to hit a bolt to end the game along with the BBE damage.
As I said, playing the deck bad should not factor into the discussion.
If the deck is built correctly, 9 times out of 10 BBE is at least a 2 for 1 and possibly can be a 4 for 1.
Also your claim of hitting decay, Kcommand, and Lilly a lot, it all depends on the build. Most builds are running 4 bolts, 2 decays, and 3 of each Lilly and Kcommand (sometimes only 2 Kcommands). That makes the percentages very different. Cascade is a broken mechanic in itself, whcih is why BBE is much more powerful then Rhino in most cases.
Sigh. The fact you guys say Jund/Abzan's goal isn't to go hellbent is just yelling, "I don't know what I'm talking about!"
Of course GBx wants both players to go hellbent, that's one of Lillie's biggest benefits. Unless my opponent is a Tron player with his lands set up, Jund/Abzan has the best topdeck in the modern format. Gxb is a goodstuff deck that's primary purpose is to 1 for 1 you and put down a creature and hit you. The only other deck that plays hellbent mode well is Grixis midrange decks
I'm definitely going to play a Bloodbraid into an empty board if I don't think it's going to be countered, she could land me a Goyf, Bob, Lilly, a bolt...
And I know it's minor, but it bothers me you think Jund decks run 3 K-Commands, most lists run 2, and when I say 2, I mean it's literally 90% of top 8 Jund decks since K-Command caught on. You can look it up, I know I'm 100% right on that claim
I agree making GBx is always scary, but BBE was purely banned because Jund had a massive meta share at the time. The culprit was Shaman, she was unfairly banned. Not once did WOTC say she was too powerful. People saying she's broken with K-Command make me roll my eyes. Snapcaster+K Command is absolutely brutal
Sigh. As for Goku saying "and the meta share is..."
That means, looking at the top 10 most played decks from Modern Nexus' metashare, we have:
an entire 2 decks play a fair interactive deck, which is Jund and Abzan. That means 11% of decks play in the top aim to win a fair way, 20.7% are combo decks. We could even add another 4.3% onto that if you'd like to consider Infect a combo deck. People differ on that and prefer to call it an aggro/linear deck, that's understandable and a fair assessment, too.
20% of the top 10 decks don't want to interact with you, they just want to do their own thing and kill you. Yes, Merfolk, Burn and Affinity definitely have to interact with other deck's sometimes, but most of the time it's not going to, it's going to continue do it's own thing. Affinity plays Ravager and manlands to actively NOT let you interact, burn now has 8 skullcrack abilities, so unless it's looking down against a must answer card, it's just flinging spells at you at the end of your turn
Merfolk may put out a dismember and spell pierce you once in a while, but it mainly wants to just put an island walk against you and not interact.
Infect tries it's hardest not to interact with you either, that's purely what Blighted Agent, Apostle's Blessing, Inkmoth Nexus and Vines of Vastwood are for
Twin, does interact with you, despite being a combo/tempo deck. Some people will say, "but it more often tempo's you out!" Sure, but there's a rough number saying it win's through the combo about 20ish percent of the time. It may not be winning purely though the combo all the time, but winning it 20% of the time because it's connecting with Splinter Twin is still a massive number, that cannot be ignored, it's still a combo deck that wins because the player must respect the possibility of the game ending on the spot if they're tapped out or have no means of removal. You could also look at it as 20.7% of those top decks want to play an interactive game while 30.7% of those decks just want to do their own thing.
I bet in the tier 2 meta-share's we'd find more linear/combo decks than tier 2 competitive/fair-interactive decks, too
BBE might push Jund too hard, but at least Jund is a pretty fair deck to play against. I'd rather support control and midrange decks as much as we can while cutting off funding for the linear aggro and combo decks. Then we can at least have fairly enjoyable matchups that don't come down to who won the dice roll and games that dont end turn 3
It's not ignorant, you said it'd warp the meta and SFM would see 30% play, Snap forces every blue deck to play with it, and if you're sitting across a steam-vents deck you always have to be aware of the 2 for 1 value it holds. I'm in no way calling Snapcaster Mage broken or asking for that to be banned, in case sensitive people respond to this. Blue would be very weak in modern without Snapcaster, just like how white is used PURELY FOR TWO CARDS and some silverbullet sideboard cards. Dude, as of now, White is almost a nonexistent color outside of a splash in competitive Magic in the modern format, and happens to be the only color without a 2 mana bomb
SFM can't truly do anything until turn 4. Batterskull and swords aren't even usable competitively in Modern right now. I'm still having a lot of trouble getting over your arguments. It's a 2 for 1, but she's a 1/2 beatstick that does nothing without the Skull or Sword. There's no Jitte, there's no legacy shenanigans. I've written all this before, it's not like you'll listen to anyone's opinion but your own though
You can't just say, "SHE'LL SLOT INTO EVERY WHITE DECK" and then turn around and say, "Snapcaster is in every blue deck and used in 35% of Modern decks, but he's not Stoneforge Mystic, you're just being ignorant, silly"
It's fine. Let's keep Modern as it is, and watch combo decks and linear decks rule the format. All GBx decks WILL be tier 2 within a year if no unbans happen and nothing massively changing happens.
Duke Reid, a long time Jund player has abandoned the fair decks for the time being, and Brad Nelson wrote that Jund and fair decks are not in a good spot right now.
The format is fine as it is.
It is diverse as hell which is a great thing so why not enjoy it?
You may be right on linearity(and I believe you are) but then again you may be not.
Talking about speculation how speculative can be the argument of "jund is going to be tier 2 soon"? Very. I won't comment on it no more because it has no basis.
Your arguments lack basis whatsoever.
If you can support showing data that linear and combo take over the format while the last top 8 had a grixis control player and several twins in it you may have me by your side. This cant be proven by the data available though so it is again speculative and simply not true.
About snap read my previous post if you like.
Twin is a combo deck. It's a tempo deck at heart, but it IS a combo deck
I am right about linearity and combo. Take a look at the tier 1 list in MTGsalvation. The only fair, interactive deck is Jund. Bloom/Tron are ramp, combo decks. Burn is fair, but linear. Affinity skirts on fair (it's really not though) and is super linear. Twin, while interactive and a tempo deck, is still a combo deck which is the measuring stick for every new deck that tries to establish itself into tier 1 and tier 2
My argument for Jund doesn't lack, take a look, it's getting into less and less top 8's. It wasn't even a player in Pittsburgh. Yeah, great, I get it, there was an undefeated Abzan deck day 1 which made no headways for day 2
Twin is actually very much reaching POD level tournament results. A tempo deck, but once again, I'll say it again, it is still a combo deck which many decks cannot stop or interact with. Thank god for Twin though, because it keeps combo and linear decks from being even bigger than what it is
I don't think any current deck has come close to winning as many tournaments as Twin, nor reach as many top 8's in tournaments in general for Modern. The summertime was everyone trying out Grixis for a change, since it's shell is so similar to Twin and players were obviously trying something new
About Snap, you still don't bother to read ***** and listen to no one but yourself, there's nothing to debate or discuss against you because it's pointless, you haven't responded to anyone's thoughtful responses in this thread about it (not that I'm calling my arguments thoughtful or elegant)
This entire thread has become pointless on the subject matter of Stoneforge Mystic
And the meta share of Jund is?
Anyone saying jund needs bbe to help it is obviously trying to fullfil a personal agenda then talking sh** about this thread.
Jund going tier 2 is absolute rubbish and still you provided no meta share confirming this theory of yours(which happens to be false).
I am done trying to prove wrong the theory without basis of every person in here who thinks a broken card can be safe.
If you think that provide a YouTube link and try to provide data instead of random theories of yours.
Yeah I have a personal agenda, I'm not winning all my games with Jund, my answers deck is defective and isn't beating the format. What's the problem?
The fact that people are still responding to you and haven't all put you on their ignore lists is amazing. You have truly spouted off some of the dumbest crap I have read in this thread.
Public Mod Note
(ktkenshinx):
Warning for flaming -ktkenshinx-
Unban all the cards, make the upcoming Pro Tour the last Modern Pro Tour ever and never touch the banlist ever again. Because let's be real everyone just wants the banlist to fulfill their personal agenda, nobody wants it to change for the benefit of the format.
The problem with this thinking is every player has a little bit different desire or vision for the format, so people are suggesting bans and unbans to follow their vision. Some are upset not everyone sees it their way.
The only way Wotc unbans everything is if they are going to give up on the format, Which I dont see happening this soon.
Quote from Spsiegel1987 »
BBE into an abrupt Decay on an empty board
If you are playing BBE into an empty board, you are either doing it for the 3 extra damage to end the game or are spinning the luck wheel hoping you hit a bolt.
Playing the deck bad shouldnt be brought up when talking about bans or unbans.
So when Jund is hellbent (ya know, the point of the deck), it's supposed to hold BBE for maximum value? There is not point in talking about either the worst possible outcome or the christmasland outcome when talking about an unban. BBE is going to hit Abrupt Decay a lot. It's also going to hit K-Command or Lily a lot - it's a matter of understanding that both are possible outcomes and taking the good with the bad.
I disagree Jund plays to be hellbent. If you only have BBE in hand and an empty board there really is no reason to play it unless, 1) that extra 3 points of damage from BBE wins the game for you, or 2) you are playing the wheel of luck trying to hit a bolt to end the game along with the BBE damage.
As I said, playing the deck bad should not factor into the discussion.
If the deck is built correctly, 9 times out of 10 BBE is at least a 2 for 1 and possibly can be a 4 for 1.
Also your claim of hitting decay, Kcommand, and Lilly a lot, it all depends on the build. Most builds are running 4 bolts, 2 decays, and 3 of each Lilly and Kcommand (sometimes only 2 Kcommands). That makes the percentages very different. Cascade is a broken mechanic in itself, whcih is why BBE is much more powerful then Rhino in most cases.
Sigh. The fact you guys say Jund/Abzan's goal isn't to go hellbent is just yelling, "I don't know what I'm talking about!"
Of course GBx wants both players to go hellbent, that's one of Lillie's biggest benefits. Unless my opponent is a Tron player with his lands set up, Jund/Abzan has the best topdeck in the modern format. Gxb is a goodstuff deck that's primary purpose is to 1 for 1 you and put down a creature and hit you. The only other deck that plays hellbent mode well is Grixis midrange decks
I'm definitely going to play a Bloodbraid into an empty board if I don't think it's going to be countered, she could land me a Goyf, Bob, Lilly, a bolt...
And I know it's minor, but it bothers me you think Jund decks run 3 K-Commands, most lists run 2, and when I say 2, I mean it's literally 90% of top 8 Jund decks since K-Command caught on. You can look it up, I know I'm 100% right on that claim
I agree making GBx is always scary, but BBE was purely banned because Jund had a massive meta share at the time. The culprit was Shaman, she was unfairly banned. Not once did WOTC say she was too powerful. People saying she's broken with K-Command make me roll my eyes. Snapcaster+K Command is absolutely brutal
Sigh. As for Goku saying "and the meta share is..."
That means, looking at the top 10 most played decks from Modern Nexus' metashare, we have:
an entire 2 decks play a fair interactive deck, which is Jund and Abzan. That means 11% of decks play in the top aim to win a fair way, 20.7% are combo decks. We could even add another 4.3% onto that if you'd like to consider Infect a combo deck. People differ on that and prefer to call it an aggro/linear deck, that's understandable and a fair assessment, too.
20% of the top 10 decks don't want to interact with you, they just want to do their own thing and kill you. Yes, Merfolk, Burn and Affinity definitely have to interact with other deck's sometimes, but most of the time it's not going to, it's going to continue do it's own thing. Affinity plays Ravager and manlands to actively NOT let you interact, burn now has 8 skullcrack abilities, so unless it's looking down against a must answer card, it's just flinging spells at you at the end of your turn
Merfolk may put out a dismember and spell pierce you once in a while, but it mainly wants to just put an island walk against you and not interact.
Infect tries it's hardest not to interact with you either, that's purely what Blighted Agent, Apostle's Blessing, Inkmoth Nexus and Vines of Vastwood are for
Twin, does interact with you, despite being a combo/tempo deck. Some people will say, "but it more often tempo's you out!" Sure, but there's a rough number saying it win's through the combo about 20ish percent of the time. It may not be winning purely though the combo all the time, but winning it 20% of the time because it's connecting with Splinter Twin is still a massive number, that cannot be ignored, it's still a combo deck that wins because the player must respect the possibility of the game ending on the spot if they're tapped out or have no means of removal. You could also look at it as 20.7% of those top decks want to play an interactive game while 30.7% of those decks just want to do their own thing.
I bet in the tier 2 meta-share's we'd find more linear/combo decks than tier 2 competitive/fair-interactive decks, too
How is this healthy?
It's not healthy, I'm at the point where practicing rolling dice to play first is more productive than actually playtesting the games because I don't need to interact with the opponent. In Modern, I would much rather be the awful player who draws the backbreaking sideboard card for my opponent than the above average player who never draws the backbreaking sideboard card.
Early on we had a midrange fest and people were upset. Then we had an aggro fest and people were not happy. For a short time we had a tempo meta and people were not happy. Now we have a linear meta and people are not happy.
No matter what Wotc does someone is going to be upset and want change. At the same time there are going to be part of the player base that enjoys the current meta.
So in short, what you may feel is unhealthy, others are enjoying.
As long as we dont have the same deck(s) winning everything week in and week out I am good with it, and money should never have anything to do with wins.
On your statement
Of course GBx wants both players to go hellbent, that's one of Lillie's biggest benefits
Lilly is only one aspect of the deck, not the only one. Different match ups demand different play.
Sometimes it does come down to that against linear and combo decks, and literally who wins the dice roll
I would never tell anyone they shouldn't play combo or linear decks, but I think it's a problem that a sociable, player to player focused game, is now warping to combo or linear decks while fair-interactive decks are being pushed aside.
Abzan/Jund are the only fair interactive decks in the Nexus top 10 meta-share. Abzan and Jund aren't the same deck, but the core of it is all but the same. Calling Abzan and Jund the same is like calling UR Twin and Grixis Twin the same, that's not a fair comparison, though. I thought it was fair to lump GBx decks together in the interactive-fair category and Twin together in the combo/interactive category since Abzan's share is similar to Grixis Twin's
Unban all the cards, make the upcoming Pro Tour the last Modern Pro Tour ever and never touch the banlist ever again. Because let's be real everyone just wants the banlist to fulfill their personal agenda, nobody wants it to change for the benefit of the format.
The problem with this thinking is every player has a little bit different desire or vision for the format, so people are suggesting bans and unbans to follow their vision. Some are upset not everyone sees it their way.
The only way Wotc unbans everything is if they are going to give up on the format, Which I dont see happening this soon.
Quote from Spsiegel1987 »
BBE into an abrupt Decay on an empty board
If you are playing BBE into an empty board, you are either doing it for the 3 extra damage to end the game or are spinning the luck wheel hoping you hit a bolt.
Playing the deck bad shouldnt be brought up when talking about bans or unbans.
So when Jund is hellbent (ya know, the point of the deck), it's supposed to hold BBE for maximum value? There is not point in talking about either the worst possible outcome or the christmasland outcome when talking about an unban. BBE is going to hit Abrupt Decay a lot. It's also going to hit K-Command or Lily a lot - it's a matter of understanding that both are possible outcomes and taking the good with the bad.
I disagree Jund plays to be hellbent. If you only have BBE in hand and an empty board there really is no reason to play it unless, 1) that extra 3 points of damage from BBE wins the game for you, or 2) you are playing the wheel of luck trying to hit a bolt to end the game along with the BBE damage.
As I said, playing the deck bad should not factor into the discussion.
If the deck is built correctly, 9 times out of 10 BBE is at least a 2 for 1 and possibly can be a 4 for 1.
Also your claim of hitting decay, Kcommand, and Lilly a lot, it all depends on the build. Most builds are running 4 bolts, 2 decays, and 3 of each Lilly and Kcommand (sometimes only 2 Kcommands). That makes the percentages very different. Cascade is a broken mechanic in itself, whcih is why BBE is much more powerful then Rhino in most cases.
Sigh. The fact you guys say Jund/Abzan's goal isn't to go hellbent is just yelling, "I don't know what I'm talking about!"
Of course GBx wants both players to go hellbent, that's one of Lillie's biggest benefits. Unless my opponent is a Tron player with his lands set up, Jund/Abzan has the best topdeck in the modern format. Gxb is a goodstuff deck that's primary purpose is to 1 for 1 you and put down a creature and hit you. The only other deck that plays hellbent mode well is Grixis midrange decks
I'm definitely going to play a Bloodbraid into an empty board if I don't think it's going to be countered, she could land me a Goyf, Bob, Lilly, a bolt...
And I know it's minor, but it bothers me you think Jund decks run 3 K-Commands, most lists run 2, and when I say 2, I mean it's literally 90% of top 8 Jund decks since K-Command caught on. You can look it up, I know I'm 100% right on that claim
I agree making GBx is always scary, but BBE was purely banned because Jund had a massive meta share at the time. The culprit was Shaman, she was unfairly banned. Not once did WOTC say she was too powerful. People saying she's broken with K-Command make me roll my eyes. Snapcaster+K Command is absolutely brutal
Sigh. As for Goku saying "and the meta share is..."
That means, looking at the top 10 most played decks from Modern Nexus' metashare, we have:
an entire 2 decks play a fair interactive deck, which is Jund and Abzan. That means 11% of decks play in the top aim to win a fair way, 20.7% are combo decks. We could even add another 4.3% onto that if you'd like to consider Infect a combo deck. People differ on that and prefer to call it an aggro/linear deck, that's understandable and a fair assessment, too.
20% of the top 10 decks don't want to interact with you, they just want to do their own thing and kill you. Yes, Merfolk, Burn and Affinity definitely have to interact with other deck's sometimes, but most of the time it's not going to, it's going to continue do it's own thing. Affinity plays Ravager and manlands to actively NOT let you interact, burn now has 8 skullcrack abilities, so unless it's looking down against a must answer card, it's just flinging spells at you at the end of your turn
Merfolk may put out a dismember and spell pierce you once in a while, but it mainly wants to just put an island walk against you and not interact.
Infect tries it's hardest not to interact with you either, that's purely what Blighted Agent, Apostle's Blessing, Inkmoth Nexus and Vines of Vastwood are for
Twin, does interact with you, despite being a combo/tempo deck. Some people will say, "but it more often tempo's you out!" Sure, but there's a rough number saying it win's through the combo about 20ish percent of the time. It may not be winning purely though the combo all the time, but winning it 20% of the time because it's connecting with Splinter Twin is still a massive number, that cannot be ignored, it's still a combo deck that wins because the player must respect the possibility of the game ending on the spot if they're tapped out or have no means of removal. You could also look at it as 20.7% of those top decks want to play an interactive game while 30.7% of those decks just want to do their own thing.
I bet in the tier 2 meta-share's we'd find more linear/combo decks than tier 2 competitive/fair-interactive decks, too
How is this healthy?
You know, I made a joke thread a couple years back predicting that since aggro decks kill you before you can play your cards, people would eventually lump it in with control as something they hate or which is somehow unfair. Thanks for proving me wrong by lumping it in with combo instead.
That's a diverse set of decks there. You have aggro, ramp, mid-range, straight combo, and a control deck that uses a combo as a wincon instead of a creature. Complaining about being linear or "non-interactive" is bogus. Midrange isn't more "fair" than combo, its more flexible. Beating your opponent by drowning them in card advantage and answering all their threats is no more "fair" then beating them by dealing damage real fast or setting up a combo. Synergistic aggro decks (like burn or affinity), ramp, and combo decks generally trade off their ability to deal with their opponents' decks in order to focus on their gameplan. Midrange and control trades off its ability to focus on it's gameplan to stop your deck. That's how things work. The only deck that breaks that mold is Twin, because Twin plays like a traditional control deck. It does this because it treats its combo as its win con rather than as the focus of the deck. It doesn't matter if you opponent sits back and answers until they drop a combo, or if they sit back and answer until they drop SFM into a sword you don't have an answer to, its still based on the same principle of sitting back until they can land the winning hit. Twin gets the ability to sometimes score a quick win, but also sacrifices a bit by getting more dead draws than a traditional control deck.
Straight control is the only thing missing, and that's because draw, card selection, and permission sucks. You can't have too much draw or card selection without good permission, because that makes combo too consistent. Modern's greatest weakness is that it only has access to a few good permission spells, most of which are conditional or temporary, despite having a large enough card pool for strong efficient combos, and for highly synergistic decks that don't need to sacrifice card quality for consistency. SFM would help give control decks another option as a finisher, and luckily enough gets hit by spell snare, but
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why not just unban accumulated knowledge? We need a tier 1-2 control deck in the meta too keep the crazy combo decks in check. Knowledge would give them the card draw they need to survive, or would the card be too strong for Grixis?
The problem with this thinking is every player has a little bit different desire or vision for the format, so people are suggesting bans and unbans to follow their vision. Some are upset not everyone sees it their way.
The only way Wotc unbans everything is if they are going to give up on the format, Which I dont see happening this soon.
If you are playing BBE into an empty board, you are either doing it for the 3 extra damage to end the game or are spinning the luck wheel hoping you hit a bolt.
Playing the deck bad shouldnt be brought up when talking about bans or unbans.
So when Jund is hellbent (ya know, the point of the deck), it's supposed to hold BBE for maximum value? There is not point in talking about either the worst possible outcome or the christmasland outcome when talking about an unban. BBE is going to hit Abrupt Decay a lot. It's also going to hit K-Command or Lily a lot - it's a matter of understanding that both are possible outcomes and taking the good with the bad.
I disagree Jund plays to be hellbent. If you only have BBE in hand and an empty board there really is no reason to play it unless, 1) that extra 3 points of damage from BBE wins the game for you, or 2) you are playing the wheel of luck trying to hit a bolt to end the game along with the BBE damage.
As I said, playing the deck bad should not factor into the discussion.
If the deck is built correctly, 9 times out of 10 BBE is at least a 2 for 1 and possibly can be a 4 for 1.
Also your claim of hitting decay, Kcommand, and Lilly a lot, it all depends on the build. Most builds are running 4 bolts, 2 decays, and 3 of each Lilly and Kcommand (sometimes only 2 Kcommands). That makes the percentages very different. Cascade is a broken mechanic in itself, whcih is why BBE is much more powerful then Rhino in most cases.
Sigh. The fact you guys say Jund/Abzan's goal isn't to go hellbent is just yelling, "I don't know what I'm talking about!"
Of course GBx wants both players to go hellbent, that's one of Lillie's biggest benefits. Unless my opponent is a Tron player with his lands set up, Jund/Abzan has the best topdeck in the modern format. Gxb is a goodstuff deck that's primary purpose is to 1 for 1 you and put down a creature and hit you. The only other deck that plays hellbent mode well is Grixis midrange decks
I'm definitely going to play a Bloodbraid into an empty board if I don't think it's going to be countered, she could land me a Goyf, Bob, Lilly, a bolt...
And I know it's minor, but it bothers me you think Jund decks run 3 K-Commands, most lists run 2, and when I say 2, I mean it's literally 90% of top 8 Jund decks since K-Command caught on. You can look it up, I know I'm 100% right on that claim
I agree making GBx is always scary, but BBE was purely banned because Jund had a massive meta share at the time. The culprit was Shaman, she was unfairly banned. Not once did WOTC say she was too powerful. People saying she's broken with K-Command make me roll my eyes. Snapcaster+K Command is absolutely brutal
Sigh. As for Goku saying "and the meta share is..."
That means, looking at the top 10 most played decks from Modern Nexus' metashare, we have:
an entire 2 decks play a fair interactive deck, which is Jund and Abzan. That means 11% of decks play in the top aim to win a fair way, 20.7% are combo decks. We could even add another 4.3% onto that if you'd like to consider Infect a combo deck. People differ on that and prefer to call it an aggro/linear deck, that's understandable and a fair assessment, too.
20% of the top 10 decks don't want to interact with you, they just want to do their own thing and kill you. Yes, Merfolk, Burn and Affinity definitely have to interact with other deck's sometimes, but most of the time it's not going to, it's going to continue do it's own thing. Affinity plays Ravager and manlands to actively NOT let you interact, burn now has 8 skullcrack abilities, so unless it's looking down against a must answer card, it's just flinging spells at you at the end of your turn
Merfolk may put out a dismember and spell pierce you once in a while, but it mainly wants to just put an island walk against you and not interact.
Infect tries it's hardest not to interact with you either, that's purely what Blighted Agent, Apostle's Blessing, Inkmoth Nexus and Vines of Vastwood are for
Twin, does interact with you, despite being a combo/tempo deck. Some people will say, "but it more often tempo's you out!" Sure, but there's a rough number saying it win's through the combo about 20ish percent of the time. It may not be winning purely though the combo all the time, but winning it 20% of the time because it's connecting with Splinter Twin is still a massive number, that cannot be ignored, it's still a combo deck that wins because the player must respect the possibility of the game ending on the spot if they're tapped out or have no means of removal. You could also look at it as 20.7% of those top decks want to play an interactive game while 30.7% of those decks just want to do their own thing.
I bet in the tier 2 meta-share's we'd find more linear/combo decks than tier 2 competitive/fair-interactive decks, too
How is this healthy?
You know, I made a joke thread a couple years back predicting that since aggro decks kill you before you can play your cards, people would eventually lump it in with control as something they hate or which is somehow unfair. Thanks for proving me wrong by lumping it in with combo instead.
That's a diverse set of decks there. You have aggro, ramp, mid-range, straight combo, and a control deck that uses a combo as a wincon instead of a creature. Complaining about being linear or "non-interactive" is bogus. Midrange isn't more "fair" than combo, its more flexible. Beating your opponent by drowning them in card advantage and answering all their threats is no more "fair" then beating them by dealing damage real fast or setting up a combo. Synergistic aggro decks (like burn or affinity), ramp, and combo decks generally trade off their ability to deal with their opponents' decks in order to focus on their gameplan. Midrange and control trades off its ability to focus on it's gameplan to stop your deck. That's how things work. The only deck that breaks that mold is Twin, because Twin plays like a traditional control deck. It does this because it treats its combo as its win con rather than as the focus of the deck. It doesn't matter if you opponent sits back and answers until they drop a combo, or if they sit back and answer until they drop SFM into a sword you don't have an answer to, its still based on the same principle of sitting back until they can land the winning hit. Twin gets the ability to sometimes score a quick win, but also sacrifices a bit by getting more dead draws than a traditional control deck.
Straight control is the only thing missing, and that's because draw, card selection, and permission sucks. You can't have too much draw or card selection without good permission, because that makes combo too consistent. Modern's greatest weakness is that it only has access to a few good permission spells, most of which are conditional or temporary, despite having a large enough card pool for strong efficient combos, and for highly synergistic decks that don't need to sacrifice card quality for consistency. SFM would help give control decks another option as a finisher, and luckily enough gets hit by spell snare, but
So the long and short of it is that any deck that beats your deck is not "fun to play against" and that control is garbage.
Control is garbage in the modern format. It's all tier 3
Rg tron is a control deck though, at heart
Does Grixis Control suck again? I haven't been paying attention to that deck. They all moved to Jace Midrange didn't they?
I actually think Scapeshift would be really good in the meta right now. I don't run into it much anymore.
I'm pretty sure it took 5th at the last GP, seems fine in the current meta.
But it didn't win. For all we know he got good pairings.
That's a horrible argument. You can say the same thing to even the winning deck (you can still win a whole tournament with good pairings). If the deck got good pairings, it means it was a correct meta call which means it is a good deck. A deck is only good relative to the decks around it. That argument literally undermines any Top 8 of any deck.
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Grixis is fairly solid, I just can't see it ever being tier 1 again. It relies so heavily on the graveyard, and modern can eeasily prey on tactics that rely too heavily on that
Affinity is massively resilient, while it's strategy is not see stony silence, it can wrap a game up so fast you may not see or even cast your silver bullet.
I would love to see azorious get a boost, it had a nice little back to back stint this summer before dissapearing to tier 3
Control is garbage in the modern format. It's all tier 3
Rg tron is a control deck though, at heart
Does Grixis Control suck again? I haven't been paying attention to that deck. They all moved to Jace Midrange didn't they?
I actually think Scapeshift would be really good in the meta right now. I don't run into it much anymore.
I'm pretty sure it took 5th at the last GP, seems fine in the current meta.
But it didn't win. For all we know he got good pairings.
Why do you guys want to spoil all the fun by saying ignorant things?
Had he won Hatebears, he would have to play Jeskai Twin, Affinity, Affinity and a second Twin, all good matchups.
He could have won it had it not been for fookin Choke.
So you basically described the problem I have with Modern, backbreaking sideboard cards that you have to successfully dodge or have no counter play to deal with them.
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I disagree Jund plays to be hellbent. If you only have BBE in hand and an empty board there really is no reason to play it unless, 1) that extra 3 points of damage from BBE wins the game for you, or 2) you are playing the wheel of luck trying to hit a bolt to end the game along with the BBE damage.
As I said, playing the deck bad should not factor into the discussion.
If the deck is built correctly, 9 times out of 10 BBE is at least a 2 for 1 and possibly can be a 4 for 1.
Also your claim of hitting decay, Kcommand, and Lilly a lot, it all depends on the build. Most builds are running 4 bolts, 2 decays, and 3 of each Lilly and Kcommand (sometimes only 2 Kcommands). That makes the percentages very different. Cascade is a broken mechanic in itself, whcih is why BBE is much more powerful then Rhino in most cases.
Oh so it's not because they have a vault full of Bloodbraid Elf, Stoneforge Mystic, Ancestral Visions, and Sword of the Meeks?
You know what else is a 3-for-1? Snapcaster Mage into Kolaghan's Command.
How about 4 for 1? Lingering Souls.
| Ad Nauseam
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Big Johnny.
I honestly can't tell if this post is serious - if you and your opponent are both hellbent and there is no board presence on the opponents side, you'd rather hold BBE for potential value rather than establish your board? That sounds.. suspect. Also, in no way did I say that hitting any of the aforementioned cards is bad at all - you're bringing up best case scenarios and the other guy is bringing up worst case scenarios - NEITHER is good ban list evaluation.
Wanna know the best card advantage? T2'ing your opponent with Hive Mind. Dead opponent's worth more cards than anything.
Aren't you the one constantly saying sfm will be in every deck and will destroy the meta, then when asked for evidence you say it's obvious?
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Yeah I have a personal agenda, I'm not winning all my games with Jund, my answers deck is defective and isn't beating the format. What's the problem?
Sigh. The fact you guys say Jund/Abzan's goal isn't to go hellbent is just yelling, "I don't know what I'm talking about!"
Of course GBx wants both players to go hellbent, that's one of Lillie's biggest benefits. Unless my opponent is a Tron player with his lands set up, Jund/Abzan has the best topdeck in the modern format. Gxb is a goodstuff deck that's primary purpose is to 1 for 1 you and put down a creature and hit you. The only other deck that plays hellbent mode well is Grixis midrange decks
I'm definitely going to play a Bloodbraid into an empty board if I don't think it's going to be countered, she could land me a Goyf, Bob, Lilly, a bolt...
And I know it's minor, but it bothers me you think Jund decks run 3 K-Commands, most lists run 2, and when I say 2, I mean it's literally 90% of top 8 Jund decks since K-Command caught on. You can look it up, I know I'm 100% right on that claim
I agree making GBx is always scary, but BBE was purely banned because Jund had a massive meta share at the time. The culprit was Shaman, she was unfairly banned. Not once did WOTC say she was too powerful. People saying she's broken with K-Command make me roll my eyes. Snapcaster+K Command is absolutely brutal
Sigh. As for Goku saying "and the meta share is..."
Let's look at the combo/linear decks for tier 1
Affinity: 8%
Burn: 7.7%
GBx: 11%
Twin: 9.7%
RG Tron: 5.7&
Amulet: 5%
Infect: 4.3%
That means, looking at the top 10 most played decks from Modern Nexus' metashare, we have:
an entire 2 decks play a fair interactive deck, which is Jund and Abzan. That means 11% of decks play in the top aim to win a fair way, 20.7% are combo decks. We could even add another 4.3% onto that if you'd like to consider Infect a combo deck. People differ on that and prefer to call it an aggro/linear deck, that's understandable and a fair assessment, too.
20% of the top 10 decks don't want to interact with you, they just want to do their own thing and kill you. Yes, Merfolk, Burn and Affinity definitely have to interact with other deck's sometimes, but most of the time it's not going to, it's going to continue do it's own thing. Affinity plays Ravager and manlands to actively NOT let you interact, burn now has 8 skullcrack abilities, so unless it's looking down against a must answer card, it's just flinging spells at you at the end of your turn
Merfolk may put out a dismember and spell pierce you once in a while, but it mainly wants to just put an island walk against you and not interact.
Infect tries it's hardest not to interact with you either, that's purely what Blighted Agent, Apostle's Blessing, Inkmoth Nexus and Vines of Vastwood are for
Twin, does interact with you, despite being a combo/tempo deck. Some people will say, "but it more often tempo's you out!" Sure, but there's a rough number saying it win's through the combo about 20ish percent of the time. It may not be winning purely though the combo all the time, but winning it 20% of the time because it's connecting with Splinter Twin is still a massive number, that cannot be ignored, it's still a combo deck that wins because the player must respect the possibility of the game ending on the spot if they're tapped out or have no means of removal. You could also look at it as 20.7% of those top decks want to play an interactive game while 30.7% of those decks just want to do their own thing.
I bet in the tier 2 meta-share's we'd find more linear/combo decks than tier 2 competitive/fair-interactive decks, too
How is this healthy?
The fact that people are still responding to you and haven't all put you on their ignore lists is amazing. You have truly spouted off some of the dumbest crap I have read in this thread.
It's not healthy, I'm at the point where practicing rolling dice to play first is more productive than actually playtesting the games because I don't need to interact with the opponent. In Modern, I would much rather be the awful player who draws the backbreaking sideboard card for my opponent than the above average player who never draws the backbreaking sideboard card.
Early on we had a midrange fest and people were upset. Then we had an aggro fest and people were not happy. For a short time we had a tempo meta and people were not happy. Now we have a linear meta and people are not happy.
No matter what Wotc does someone is going to be upset and want change. At the same time there are going to be part of the player base that enjoys the current meta.
So in short, what you may feel is unhealthy, others are enjoying.
As long as we dont have the same deck(s) winning everything week in and week out I am good with it, and money should never have anything to do with wins.
On your statement
Lilly is only one aspect of the deck, not the only one. Different match ups demand different play.
I would never tell anyone they shouldn't play combo or linear decks, but I think it's a problem that a sociable, player to player focused game, is now warping to combo or linear decks while fair-interactive decks are being pushed aside.
Abzan/Jund are the only fair interactive decks in the Nexus top 10 meta-share. Abzan and Jund aren't the same deck, but the core of it is all but the same. Calling Abzan and Jund the same is like calling UR Twin and Grixis Twin the same, that's not a fair comparison, though. I thought it was fair to lump GBx decks together in the interactive-fair category and Twin together in the combo/interactive category since Abzan's share is similar to Grixis Twin's
You know, I made a joke thread a couple years back predicting that since aggro decks kill you before you can play your cards, people would eventually lump it in with control as something they hate or which is somehow unfair. Thanks for proving me wrong by lumping it in with combo instead.
That's a diverse set of decks there. You have aggro, ramp, mid-range, straight combo, and a control deck that uses a combo as a wincon instead of a creature. Complaining about being linear or "non-interactive" is bogus. Midrange isn't more "fair" than combo, its more flexible. Beating your opponent by drowning them in card advantage and answering all their threats is no more "fair" then beating them by dealing damage real fast or setting up a combo. Synergistic aggro decks (like burn or affinity), ramp, and combo decks generally trade off their ability to deal with their opponents' decks in order to focus on their gameplan. Midrange and control trades off its ability to focus on it's gameplan to stop your deck. That's how things work. The only deck that breaks that mold is Twin, because Twin plays like a traditional control deck. It does this because it treats its combo as its win con rather than as the focus of the deck. It doesn't matter if you opponent sits back and answers until they drop a combo, or if they sit back and answer until they drop SFM into a sword you don't have an answer to, its still based on the same principle of sitting back until they can land the winning hit. Twin gets the ability to sometimes score a quick win, but also sacrifices a bit by getting more dead draws than a traditional control deck.
Straight control is the only thing missing, and that's because draw, card selection, and permission sucks. You can't have too much draw or card selection without good permission, because that makes combo too consistent. Modern's greatest weakness is that it only has access to a few good permission spells, most of which are conditional or temporary, despite having a large enough card pool for strong efficient combos, and for highly synergistic decks that don't need to sacrifice card quality for consistency. SFM would help give control decks another option as a finisher, and luckily enough gets hit by spell snare, but
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So the long and short of it is that any deck that beats your deck is not "fun to play against" and that control is garbage.
Rg tron is a control deck though, at heart
Does Grixis Control suck again? I haven't been paying attention to that deck. They all moved to Jace Midrange didn't they?
I actually think Scapeshift would be really good in the meta right now. I don't run into it much anymore.
I'm pretty sure it took 5th at the last GP, seems fine in the current meta.
But it didn't win. For all we know he got good pairings.
That's a horrible argument. You can say the same thing to even the winning deck (you can still win a whole tournament with good pairings). If the deck got good pairings, it means it was a correct meta call which means it is a good deck. A deck is only good relative to the decks around it. That argument literally undermines any Top 8 of any deck.
Affinity is massively resilient, while it's strategy is not see stony silence, it can wrap a game up so fast you may not see or even cast your silver bullet.
I would love to see azorious get a boost, it had a nice little back to back stint this summer before dissapearing to tier 3
So you basically described the problem I have with Modern, backbreaking sideboard cards that you have to successfully dodge or have no counter play to deal with them.