As far as the discussion on top 8s go: that's laughable. Top eights mean nothing. The real results come from meta shares, top 16-32, day 2s, etc. Decks the consistently go deep but dont win are good decks. You dont know how many of those decks missed a top deck or got a gameloss or any random thing and could have easily won the event with a bit of luck on their side. But as far as top eights are concerned, look at GP Omaha (right before Tcruise ban). In a format "entirely dominated" by Pod and Tcruise, only two Delver decks and a single Pod deck top eighted. The other five decks were unique. So take from that what you will.
I'm not sure what I"m supposed to take from that. You seem to be trying to make the argument that there's some kind of apparent contradiction between a format that was "entirely dominated" by those decks and those decks getting only 3 of the top 8, but I don't think anyone has claimed that the format was "entirely dominated" by those decks. Dominated, certainly, but not "entirely dominated."
A format that's "entirely dominated" by a deck would be Standard after Batterskull got printed. A format that's just "dominated" by a deck would be RTR-Theros Standard with Monoblack Devotion. In both cases one deck was clearly the biggest deck in the room, but in the former Caw-Blade was basically the only game you had (well, I guess you could play Twin-Blade, its spin-off), whereas in the latter there were still a lot of other decks. A deck doesn’t have to ENTIRELY dominate a format to be a problem. Regular domination is a problem in and of itself. In Standard that’s acceptable because rotation ensures it stops, but in a nonrotating format it’s an issue because they can’t just wait for the cards to get auto-banned by rotation.
You might claim I'm playing semantics here, but there’s a huge difference between entire domination and just “regular” domination. The former implies something like 75+%, whereas the latter implies something like 20+%. 3/8 of the decks being Delver and Pod doesn’t mean the format wasn’t being dominated (and warped) by them, because you’ll notice the decks that happen to be doing well are the ones that have positive matchups against them.
So as far as I can tell, your argument here is just attacking a strawman.
I'm mostly relating the fact that in a format where 3 specific decks made up a large percentage of it, 5 unique decks managed to top eight, thus top eighting doesn't mean a whole lot when you expand the picture and see the rest of the field is filled with the same couple decks. Those random, unique decks don't instantly become the best of the format because they managed to top 8 something. It was mostly for the guy or two in here fixated on top eights. On the other hand though, those decks did manage to top 8 a GP in that format so they had to be doing something right. Sure, it was a combination of luck, match ups and pilot skill.
However that was a format where two decks had a solid level of card select and card advantage, something people seem to be currently complaining is lacking in the format (thus this thread about linear decks dominating because midrange decks can't find their answers), and people still hated it. You can't win. You can't give the decks access to the right answers because then the decks not playing those couple cards have to in turn get "lucky" to find ways to counter those answers. If you remove the ability to find the answers, the burden then is put on to the midrange deck and they have to get lucky. The format doesn't have brainstorm to find stuff for both combo and midrange decks, it doesn't have force to let either variant tap out while also protecting themselves, it doesn't have wasteland to punish greedy, linear strategies. People don't seem to want those cards in modern but they seem to want the effects those cards have on a format.
I posted this on the last page but I think it got lost in the turnover to this page (it was at the bottom). So here's the metagame stats again. It's important we are all on the same page with respect to these numbers, because if we don't know the format, it's hard to talk about it meaningfully.
However that was a format where two decks had a solid level of card select and card advantage, something people seem to be currently complaining is lacking in the format (thus this thread about linear decks dominating because midrange decks can't find their answers), and people still hated it. You can't win. You can't give the decks access to the right answers because then the decks not playing those couple cards have to in turn get "lucky" to find ways to counter those answers. If you remove the ability to find the answers, the burden then is put on to the midrange deck and they have to get lucky. The format doesn't have brainstorm to find stuff for both combo and midrange decks, it doesn't have force to let either variant tap out while also protecting themselves, it doesn't have wasteland to punish greedy, linear strategies. People don't seem to want those cards in modern but they seem to want the effects those cards have on a format.
I really don't know what you are talking about. Take a look at the stats that ktkenshinx posted.
What you do see there? Oh right. Abzan, UR Twin, Grixis Delver and Jund all being on the upper end of the metagame and all of them are interactive non-linear decks.
Has anyone actually defined linear and non linear I have not read the entire thread so I do not know but it is something that must be addressed. For example is scapeshift linear? Despite having interaction of counters and burn spells, the deck really only does one thing caste scapeshift. If it can get away with only ever doing the then it is happy.
I was told that rwu was linear becuase all it did was stay alive until it one with collinade.
Is a deck interactive becuase it has counters? Bloom has 1 or 2.
Does discard make a deck interactive? Legacy storm has somr though
We need to figure out terms and have everyone understand them to have this type of debate I feel
Has anyone actually defined linear and non linear I have not read the entire thread so I do not know but it is something that must be addressed. For example is scapeshift linear? Despite having interaction of counters and burn spells, the deck really only does one thing caste scapeshift. If it can get away with only ever doing the then it is happy.
I was told that rwu was linear becuase all it did was stay alive until it one with collinade.
Is a deck interactive becuase it has counters? Bloom has 1 or 2.
Does discard make a deck interactive? Legacy storm has somr though
We need to figure out terms and have everyone understand them to have this type of debate I feel
That's a lovely idea... at least, until we try it. Once we try to put it in action, no one actually agrees on the terms. So then we aren't even running around in circles about the thread's topic. We are running around in circles about a subtopic of the thread's topic. For me, I'd rather just use the terms as I understand them and try to explain them in my post through examples or quick definitions. Most people take this approach. In general, That tends to be a better approach for forums, which are notorious for being places that are inhospitable to consensus.
In this regard, I generally define decks on a continuum from "linear" to "nonlinear" as opposed to just one term. At the far end of the "linear" side are decks that literally don't care at all what an opponent is doing. Their goal is to win by just one method and not to interact at all with an opponent. On the other side are the "nonlinear" decks, which have multiple ways to win and try to interact with as much of an opponent's gameplan as possible.To some extent, "linear" and "noninteractive" are similar (as are "nonlinear"/"interactive"), so that's another way to think about them. And in practice, decks are never just at one extreme of the scale. They exist along the continuum. You can also break down the "win methods" along card lines (e.g. Glistener Elf, Blighted Agent, Inkmoth Nexus are three ways for Infect to win) or card themes (e.g. winning with a pumped Infect creature is Infect's way to win).
Has anyone actually defined linear and non linear I have not read the entire thread so I do not know but it is something that must be addressed. For example is scapeshift linear? Despite having interaction of counters and burn spells, the deck really only does one thing caste scapeshift. If it can get away with only ever doing the then it is happy.
I was told that rwu was linear becuase all it did was stay alive until it one with collinade.
Is a deck interactive becuase it has counters? Bloom has 1 or 2.
Does discard make a deck interactive? Legacy storm has somr though
We need to figure out terms and have everyone understand them to have this type of debate I feel
That's a lovely idea... at least, until we try it. Once we try to put it in action, no one actually agrees on the terms. So then we aren't even running around in circles about the thread's topic. We are running around in circles about a subtopic of the thread's topic. For me, I'd rather just use the terms as I understand them and try to explain them in my post through examples or quick definitions. Most people take this approach. In general, That tends to be a better approach for forums, which are notorious for being places that are inhospitable to consensus.
In this regard, I generally define decks on a continuum from "linear" to "nonlinear" as opposed to just one term. At the far end of the "linear" side are decks that literally don't care at all what an opponent is doing. Their goal is to win by just one method and not to interact at all with an opponent. On the other side are the "nonlinear" decks, which have multiple ways to win and try to interact with as much of an opponent's gameplan as possible.To some extent, "linear" and "noninteractive" are similar (as are "nonlinear"/"interactive"), so that's another way to think about them. And in practice, decks are never just at one extreme of the scale. They exist along the continuum. You can also break down the "win methods" along card lines (e.g. Glistener Elf, Blighted Agent, Inkmoth Nexus are three ways for Infect to win) or card themes (e.g. winning with a pumped Infect creature is Infect's way to win).
Would you consider the new Abzan Collected Company deck linear?
Would you consider the new Abzan Collected Company deck linear?
Definitely not. It has at least four different ways it can win (lifegain Finks combo, damage Redcap combo, aggressive beatdown, grind/outvaluing). It also numerous cards, particularly in games 2/3, that are deliberately interactive. And not just to protect its own combos: interactive to actually stop opposing cards. For instance, builds are running Decay, Skite, Scooze, and Pontiff (perhaps even Pridemage) in the maindeck alone. The sideboard is even more interactive, as opposed to decks that try to protect their combo and gameplan in the sideboard.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Has anyone actually defined linear and non linear I have not read the entire thread so I do not know but it is something that must be addressed. For example is scapeshift linear? Despite having interaction of counters and burn spells, the deck really only does one thing caste scapeshift. If it can get away with only ever doing the then it is happy.
I was told that rwu was linear becuase all it did was stay alive until it one with collinade.
Is a deck interactive becuase it has counters? Bloom has 1 or 2.
Does discard make a deck interactive? Legacy storm has somr though
We need to figure out terms and have everyone understand them to have this type of debate I feel
In my opinion, a deck is noninteractive when a majority of its nonland cards are at their best if you assume the opponent doesn't exist. For example, in Infect and Burn almost all of the cards are at their best when the opponent doesn't exist. However, this is not the case in Junk and Twin.
Has anyone actually defined linear and non linear I have not read the entire thread so I do not know but it is something that must be addressed. For example is scapeshift linear? Despite having interaction of counters and burn spells, the deck really only does one thing caste scapeshift. If it can get away with only ever doing the then it is happy.
I was told that rwu was linear becuase all it did was stay alive until it one with collinade.
Is a deck interactive becuase it has counters? Bloom has 1 or 2.
Does discard make a deck interactive? Legacy storm has somr though
We need to figure out terms and have everyone understand them to have this type of debate I feel
In my opinion, a deck is noninteractive when a majority of its nonland cards are at their best if you assume the opponent doesn't exist. For example, in Infect and Burn almost all of the cards are at their best when the opponent doesn't exist. However, this is not the case in Junk and Twin.
But it is the case for the new Collected Company deck, they play their creatures and hope you don't remove them the interaction really mostly comes from my side.
An argument could be made that creatures are inherently interactive. There is after all an entire Phase dedicated to creatures only and if you have creatures yourself than you can just block opposing ones without needing additional resources.
Has anyone actually defined linear and non linear I have not read the entire thread so I do not know but it is something that must be addressed. For example is scapeshift linear? Despite having interaction of counters and burn spells, the deck really only does one thing caste scapeshift. If it can get away with only ever doing the then it is happy.
I was told that rwu was linear becuase all it did was stay alive until it one with collinade.
Is a deck interactive becuase it has counters? Bloom has 1 or 2.
Does discard make a deck interactive? Legacy storm has somr though
We need to figure out terms and have everyone understand them to have this type of debate I feel
In my opinion, a deck is noninteractive when a majority of its nonland cards are at their best if you assume the opponent doesn't exist. For example, in Infect and Burn almost all of the cards are at their best when the opponent doesn't exist. However, this is not the case in Junk and Twin.
But it is the case for the new Collected Company deck, they play their creatures and hope you don't remove them the interaction really mostly comes from my side.
Overall really a debatable topic.
Collected Company really isn't running that much interaction. It is definitely not a linear deck, but it is not trying to interact with the opponent that much.
The problem I see in the current modern is that cheap decks tend to be the non interactive kind, therefore we tend to see more non interactive decks running around, can't blame people when playset of goyf, lilly, cryptic, snap, etc cost a ton to get. Till the day when staples of interactive decks are low enough for ppl to buy in, we got to live with non interactive decks.
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EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
So what are your guesses which percentage Abzan Company will reach in the meta?
Pod was sadly too powerful but it fulfilled an important role in the meta and I love that we finally have a deck again that punishes turn 1 Mountain, Goblin Guide style of decks.
Sounds only fair that Aggro decks should get punished too. Considering they make up so much of the meta right now Abzan Company may be the key in transforming the Tier 1 decks to something else than two BG/x decks, Twin and 3 non-interactive Aggro decks.
Sure there may be the risk of it becoming 3 BG/x decks, Twin and something else thrown in but that still sounds better than what we have now. At least 4 of the decks would be interactive.
In a nutshell the meta looks like it does because there is no deck that punishes all the non-interactive aggressive decks. Even Twin can lose to Burn.
Pod used to fulfill that role but since it was banned we didn't have a deck that was able to fulfill that role. The new Abzan Company decks could step in those shoes though and push all of these decks down a notch to get a more balanced meta. Unlike it's Abzan and Jund brothers is also doesn't require Goyf/Lili so there is no financial barrier that artificially holds it back
I for one am so glad to have a strong deck that punishes Burn. I don't consider Soul Sisters to be too strong.
I am not going to say that Collected Company is the Pod replacement, but the Junk Company list occupies a role that Pod used to have; that is punishing fair decks. It still has problems with decks that go big, like GR Tron, which is just a horrible matchup.
(By the way, if anyone has figured out how to beat GR Tron with Company, please let me know.) I've sided in an extra Harmonic Sliver, 3 Thoughtseize, and 2 Path to Exile (for Wurmcoil Engine).
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I for one am so glad to have a strong deck that punishes Burn. I don't consider Soul Sisters to be too strong.
I am not going to say that Collected Company is the Pod replacement, but the Junk Company list occupies a role that Pod used to have; that is punishing fair decks. It still has problems with decks that go big, like GR Tron, which is just a horrible matchup. (By the way, if anyone has figured out how to beat GR Tron with Company, please let me know.) I've sided in an extra Harmonic Sliver, 3 Thoughtseize, and 2 Path to Exile (for Wurmcoil Engine).
(By the way, if anyone has figured out how to beat GR Tron with Company, please let me know.) I've sided in an extra Harmonic Sliver, 3 Thoughtseize, and 2 Path to Exile (for Wurmcoil Engine).
As a Tron player, I'd say your best bet is probably Fulminator Mage, as it can be found off Collected Company. To be honest, I was continually surprised that so few Junk Pod decks were running Fulminator Mage, considering that it's good against Tron and Scapeshift, two of their worst matchups.
(By the way, if anyone has figured out how to beat GR Tron with Company, please let me know.) I've sided in an extra Harmonic Sliver, 3 Thoughtseize, and 2 Path to Exile (for Wurmcoil Engine).
As a Tron player, I'd say your best bet is probably Fulminator Mage, as it can be found off Collected Company. To be honest, I was continually surprised that so few Junk Pod decks were running Fulminator Mage, considering that it's good against Tron and Scapeshift, two of their worst matchups.
Of course but there is also the thing about Tron and Scapeshift both not being very common decks to face in any given tournament considering their percentages. You can't prepare for everything.
And let's be honest here a bad Tron matchup didn't stop Pod from dominating and making Top 8 in most tournaments.
That is it right there. I think that I will put something different in my SB just for play testing purposes because there is a GR Tron in my gauntlet and it sucks losing to anybody 9 out of 10 times, especially when I can do around 70% against most of the fair matchups. When I play at tournaments, I will take these anti-Tron cards back out of the SB.
I considered Fulminator Mage, but after hearing some of the hands that the Tron player kept, I came to realize that it just is a poor matchup.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
That is it right there. I think that I will put something different in my SB just for play testing purposes because there is a GR Tron in my gauntlet and it sucks losing to anybody 9 out of 10 times, especially when I can do around 70% against most of the fair matchups. When I play at tournaments, I will take these anti-Tron cards back out of the SB.
I considered Fulminator Mage, but after hearing some of the hands that the Tron player kept, I came to realize that it just is a poor matchup.
I have always found Sowing Salt a great tool against tron. Blood Moon is pretty strong as well, but Mono Blue Tron has repeal, and GR Tron 4 Oblivion stone so it's never been as solid as Sowing Salt. Unfortunately, it's not in the colors of Junk, but you can play it Jund. Has anyone tried Jund Company? However, if your set on Junk I would try Aven Mindcensor which stops Eye of Ugin, Expedition Map, and Sylvan Scrying. Plus against Mono Blue Tron is stops Fabricate, Treasure Mage, and Tolaria West. It's also can make an opponent's fetches dead, and can be flipped off a collected company. I would just be careful of pyroclasm, and flash it in or company in response to their tutors.
That is it right there. I think that I will put something different in my SB just for play testing purposes because there is a GR Tron in my gauntlet and it sucks losing to anybody 9 out of 10 times, especially when I can do around 70% against most of the fair matchups. When I play at tournaments, I will take these anti-Tron cards back out of the SB.
I considered Fulminator Mage, but after hearing some of the hands that the Tron player kept, I came to realize that it just is a poor matchup.
I have always found Sowing Salt a great tool against tron. Blood Moon is pretty strong as well, but Mono Blue Tron has repeal, and GR Tron 4 Oblivion stone so it's never been as solid as Sowing Salt. Unfortunately, it's not in the colors of Junk, but you can play it Jund. Has anyone tried Jund Company?
Honestly, even if Blood Moon was on color, it seems pretty bad in Junk Pod due to its tenuous manabase. It's the kind of deck you'd use Blood Moon against.
But in all truth, Blood Moon has always been extremely overrated against GR Tron. They can blow it away with Oblivion Stone, it actually makes it easier for them to cast Pyroclasm (my opponent's Blood Moon allowing me to cast Pyroclasm actually straight up one me a game once), and unless you have a fast enough clock to beat them, they can just get enough lands down and hardcast Wurmcoil Engine or Karn. A deck running Blood Moon needs to both be fast enough to kill Tron before they can hardcast their stuff but also not just die to Pyroclasm (or hope to heck the Tron player doesn't have it) because otherwise the Blood Moon won't be that effective.
As for Sowing Salt, that has the problem Sowing Salt has always had: It's great against Tron, pretty good against Scapeshift, and that's basically it. Against other decks, it's basically a Fulminator Mage that costs 1 more mana and isn't even a creature. It also can sometimes just be too slow against GR Tron if they're able to get Urzatron assembled rapidly enough and get a big threat down.
That's why I recommended Fulminator Mage, particularly for Collected Company. It's easily one of the best cards regular Junk has against Tron, and might be even better in Collected Company Junk because they can find it more reliably. And in cases where the land destruction isn't necessarily something that has to be used right away, you can get in for a little bit of damage. It wouldn't make the matchup good, but it definitely helps.
On the whole, though, it's just one of those matchups you just have to sort of hope to not face at all. But I still think Fulminator Mage is probably the best card for Junk Company against GR Tron. Like I said, I was continually surprised that no Pod deck I ever faced was running Fulminator Mage.
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Do you think modern will be like legacy in some month/years?
I mean in competive legacy there are "only" Delver decks, stoneblade decks, miracle and combo decks all in 10 variants but not rly different decks. "normal" creature based deck like zoo are not rly playable competive. People say "yeah legacy you have a 1000000 card pool it is so much diverse" but in reality you see only the same 100 cards again and again.
Will we have in modern only bgx, twin and combo decks?
If you wanna generalize. You have junk, jund, junk company and little kid junk and sultai, 4 variants of twin, 2-4 delver variants and the rest are mostly combo decks.
Junk Company is nothing like Junk. It has an infinite combo and plays only 10 noncreature spells in the whole 60.
Do you think modern will be like legacy in some month/years?
I mean in competive legacy there are "only" Delver decks, stoneblade decks, miracle and combo decks all in 10 variants but not rly different decks. "normal" creature based deck like zoo are not rly playable competive. People say "yeah legacy you have a 1000000 card pool it is so much diverse" but in reality you see only the same 100 cards again and again.
Will we have in modern only bgx, twin and combo decks?
If you wanna generalize. You have junk, jund, junk company and little kid junk and sultai, 4 variants of twin, 2-4 delver variants and the rest are mostly combo decks.
No. Burn is always gonna be around. Merfolk too. Both of those are in legacy as well. So I don't see how you say that its just fast combo.
Do you think modern will be like legacy in some month/years?
I mean in competive legacy there are "only" Delver decks, stoneblade decks, miracle and combo decks all in 10 variants but not rly different decks. "normal" creature based deck like zoo are not rly playable competive. People say "yeah legacy you have a 1000000 card pool it is so much diverse" but in reality you see only the same 100 cards again and again.
Will we have in modern only bgx, twin and combo decks?
If you wanna generalize. You have junk, jund, junk company and little kid junk and sultai, 4 variants of twin, 2-4 delver variants and the rest are mostly combo decks.
No, and I hope that will never happen.
The diversity problem you are talking about happens if you let cards in the format that are clearly above the rest. In Legacy it's clearly all the Blue cards and that's why the format is warped around them.
Modern may have a few cards that are certainly very good but the difference is that they are all not in the same color unlike in Legacy. In Modern you have stuff like Thoughtseize in Black, Remand in Blue, Lightning Bolt in Red, Tarmogoyf in Green, etc.
All colors in Modern besides probably White have some extremely powerful cards that enable decks in those colors to compete but not a single color stands above the rest. That's why Modern has such much color diversity.
We also had Esper Midrange, Abzan Company, Grixis Delver, Sultai Control, Elves and Abzan Liege as decks that made a name for themselves but were on nobody's radar before. Modern is far from stagnant.
Do you think modern will be like legacy in some month/years?
I mean in competive legacy there are "only" Delver decks, stoneblade decks, miracle and combo decks all in 10 variants but not rly different decks.
If you think Storm, Elves, and Show and Tell are "not really different decks" then you have basically no understanding of Legacy decks.
"normal" creature based deck like zoo are not rly playable competitive.
It's unclear what you mean by "normal." Do you mean simply non-combo (disqualifying Elves)? In that case, Death & Taxes is pretty competitive. Though if by "normal" you mean an aggro deck, then yeah, those are pretty much gone.
People say "yeah legacy you have a 1000000 card pool it is so much diverse" but in reality you see only the same 100 cards again and again.
Will we have in modern only bgx, twin and combo decks?
If you wanna generalize. You have junk, jund, junk company and little kid junk and sultai, 4 variants of twin, 2-4 delver variants and the rest are mostly combo decks.
So basically, if we generalize Modern like you generalized Legacy, by your own admission we end up no more diverse than Legacy already, perhaps even less so.
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I'm mostly relating the fact that in a format where 3 specific decks made up a large percentage of it, 5 unique decks managed to top eight, thus top eighting doesn't mean a whole lot when you expand the picture and see the rest of the field is filled with the same couple decks. Those random, unique decks don't instantly become the best of the format because they managed to top 8 something. It was mostly for the guy or two in here fixated on top eights. On the other hand though, those decks did manage to top 8 a GP in that format so they had to be doing something right. Sure, it was a combination of luck, match ups and pilot skill.
However that was a format where two decks had a solid level of card select and card advantage, something people seem to be currently complaining is lacking in the format (thus this thread about linear decks dominating because midrange decks can't find their answers), and people still hated it. You can't win. You can't give the decks access to the right answers because then the decks not playing those couple cards have to in turn get "lucky" to find ways to counter those answers. If you remove the ability to find the answers, the burden then is put on to the midrange deck and they have to get lucky. The format doesn't have brainstorm to find stuff for both combo and midrange decks, it doesn't have force to let either variant tap out while also protecting themselves, it doesn't have wasteland to punish greedy, linear strategies. People don't seem to want those cards in modern but they seem to want the effects those cards have on a format.
I used those numbers to compile mine. Data doesn't lie is a saying.
I really don't know what you are talking about. Take a look at the stats that ktkenshinx posted.
What you do see there? Oh right. Abzan, UR Twin, Grixis Delver and Jund all being on the upper end of the metagame and all of them are interactive non-linear decks.
I was told that rwu was linear becuase all it did was stay alive until it one with collinade.
Is a deck interactive becuase it has counters? Bloom has 1 or 2.
Does discard make a deck interactive? Legacy storm has somr though
We need to figure out terms and have everyone understand them to have this type of debate I feel
That's a lovely idea... at least, until we try it. Once we try to put it in action, no one actually agrees on the terms. So then we aren't even running around in circles about the thread's topic. We are running around in circles about a subtopic of the thread's topic. For me, I'd rather just use the terms as I understand them and try to explain them in my post through examples or quick definitions. Most people take this approach. In general, That tends to be a better approach for forums, which are notorious for being places that are inhospitable to consensus.
In this regard, I generally define decks on a continuum from "linear" to "nonlinear" as opposed to just one term. At the far end of the "linear" side are decks that literally don't care at all what an opponent is doing. Their goal is to win by just one method and not to interact at all with an opponent. On the other side are the "nonlinear" decks, which have multiple ways to win and try to interact with as much of an opponent's gameplan as possible.To some extent, "linear" and "noninteractive" are similar (as are "nonlinear"/"interactive"), so that's another way to think about them. And in practice, decks are never just at one extreme of the scale. They exist along the continuum. You can also break down the "win methods" along card lines (e.g. Glistener Elf, Blighted Agent, Inkmoth Nexus are three ways for Infect to win) or card themes (e.g. winning with a pumped Infect creature is Infect's way to win).
Would you consider the new Abzan Collected Company deck linear?
Definitely not. It has at least four different ways it can win (lifegain Finks combo, damage Redcap combo, aggressive beatdown, grind/outvaluing). It also numerous cards, particularly in games 2/3, that are deliberately interactive. And not just to protect its own combos: interactive to actually stop opposing cards. For instance, builds are running Decay, Skite, Scooze, and Pontiff (perhaps even Pridemage) in the maindeck alone. The sideboard is even more interactive, as opposed to decks that try to protect their combo and gameplan in the sideboard.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)In my opinion, a deck is noninteractive when a majority of its nonland cards are at their best if you assume the opponent doesn't exist. For example, in Infect and Burn almost all of the cards are at their best when the opponent doesn't exist. However, this is not the case in Junk and Twin.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
But it is the case for the new Collected Company deck, they play their creatures and hope you don't remove them the interaction really mostly comes from my side.
Overall really a debatable topic.
Exceptions are of course creatures that make it harder to interact with them in first place. Think Geist of Saint Traft, Invisible Stalker, Blighted Agent, Ætherling, etc.
Collected Company really isn't running that much interaction. It is definitely not a linear deck, but it is not trying to interact with the opponent that much.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
In a nutshell the meta looks like it does because there is no deck that punishes all the non-interactive aggressive decks. Even Twin can lose to Burn.
Pod used to fulfill that role but since it was banned we didn't have a deck that was able to fulfill that role. The new Abzan Company decks could step in those shoes though and push all of these decks down a notch to get a more balanced meta. Unlike it's Abzan and Jund brothers is also doesn't require Goyf/Lili so there is no financial barrier that artificially holds it back
I am not going to say that Collected Company is the Pod replacement, but the Junk Company list occupies a role that Pod used to have; that is punishing fair decks. It still has problems with decks that go big, like GR Tron, which is just a horrible matchup.
(By the way, if anyone has figured out how to beat GR Tron with Company, please let me know.) I've sided in an extra Harmonic Sliver, 3 Thoughtseize, and 2 Path to Exile (for Wurmcoil Engine).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Of course but there is also the thing about Tron and Scapeshift both not being very common decks to face in any given tournament considering their percentages. You can't prepare for everything.
And let's be honest here a bad Tron matchup didn't stop Pod from dominating and making Top 8 in most tournaments.
I considered Fulminator Mage, but after hearing some of the hands that the Tron player kept, I came to realize that it just is a poor matchup.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I have always found Sowing Salt a great tool against tron. Blood Moon is pretty strong as well, but Mono Blue Tron has repeal, and GR Tron 4 Oblivion stone so it's never been as solid as Sowing Salt. Unfortunately, it's not in the colors of Junk, but you can play it Jund. Has anyone tried Jund Company? However, if your set on Junk I would try Aven Mindcensor which stops Eye of Ugin, Expedition Map, and Sylvan Scrying. Plus against Mono Blue Tron is stops Fabricate, Treasure Mage, and Tolaria West. It's also can make an opponent's fetches dead, and can be flipped off a collected company. I would just be careful of pyroclasm, and flash it in or company in response to their tutors.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
But in all truth, Blood Moon has always been extremely overrated against GR Tron. They can blow it away with Oblivion Stone, it actually makes it easier for them to cast Pyroclasm (my opponent's Blood Moon allowing me to cast Pyroclasm actually straight up one me a game once), and unless you have a fast enough clock to beat them, they can just get enough lands down and hardcast Wurmcoil Engine or Karn. A deck running Blood Moon needs to both be fast enough to kill Tron before they can hardcast their stuff but also not just die to Pyroclasm (or hope to heck the Tron player doesn't have it) because otherwise the Blood Moon won't be that effective.
As for Sowing Salt, that has the problem Sowing Salt has always had: It's great against Tron, pretty good against Scapeshift, and that's basically it. Against other decks, it's basically a Fulminator Mage that costs 1 more mana and isn't even a creature. It also can sometimes just be too slow against GR Tron if they're able to get Urzatron assembled rapidly enough and get a big threat down.
That's why I recommended Fulminator Mage, particularly for Collected Company. It's easily one of the best cards regular Junk has against Tron, and might be even better in Collected Company Junk because they can find it more reliably. And in cases where the land destruction isn't necessarily something that has to be used right away, you can get in for a little bit of damage. It wouldn't make the matchup good, but it definitely helps.
On the whole, though, it's just one of those matchups you just have to sort of hope to not face at all. But I still think Fulminator Mage is probably the best card for Junk Company against GR Tron. Like I said, I was continually surprised that no Pod deck I ever faced was running Fulminator Mage.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Junk Company is nothing like Junk. It has an infinite combo and plays only 10 noncreature spells in the whole 60.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
No. Burn is always gonna be around. Merfolk too. Both of those are in legacy as well. So I don't see how you say that its just fast combo.
No, and I hope that will never happen.
The diversity problem you are talking about happens if you let cards in the format that are clearly above the rest. In Legacy it's clearly all the Blue cards and that's why the format is warped around them.
Modern may have a few cards that are certainly very good but the difference is that they are all not in the same color unlike in Legacy. In Modern you have stuff like Thoughtseize in Black, Remand in Blue, Lightning Bolt in Red, Tarmogoyf in Green, etc.
All colors in Modern besides probably White have some extremely powerful cards that enable decks in those colors to compete but not a single color stands above the rest. That's why Modern has such much color diversity.
We also had Esper Midrange, Abzan Company, Grixis Delver, Sultai Control, Elves and Abzan Liege as decks that made a name for themselves but were on nobody's radar before. Modern is far from stagnant.
It's unclear what you mean by "normal." Do you mean simply non-combo (disqualifying Elves)? In that case, Death & Taxes is pretty competitive. Though if by "normal" you mean an aggro deck, then yeah, those are pretty much gone.
So basically, if we generalize Modern like you generalized Legacy, by your own admission we end up no more diverse than Legacy already, perhaps even less so.