I think one thing people might ignore here is the possibility of colored mana being used without the land tapping for a color inherently. I think a land that taps for colorless and has R, tap, sac: destroy target nonbasic land is at least worth talking about (or 1R or RR). Modern has very greedy manabases and I think something viable landwise to punish that might add an interesting component to the metagame.
And yes, I know Tectonic Edge is a thing, but I still feel that people don't really take any lands into consideration when designing manabases. Something that hates on greedy manabases but doesn't take up a spell slot and can't easily be countered is something I think merits discussion. And of course you can also answer that Tec Edge is enough, because it might be. I'm just spitballing here.
I'd be surprised to see a better one than Tectonic Edge added to the format.
The real question is - what role should a new Wasteland effect play?
Should it be dealing with non-mana activated, triggered and static abilities of nonbasics? Stunting opponents' mana development? Or interfering with super greedy colored mana bases? Tec Edge achieves the first and third of those goals acceptably. Legacy offers Sinkhole, Stifle, Wasteland and Rishadan Port to do the second.
Tec Edge its good enough, we dont need people destroying your turn 1 shock, turn 2 shock and swing whit a tarmogoyf for the win and you crying whit 0 lands ...
The formats its already non-interactive for added more non-interactive cards that sucks to play against
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Modern: RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries Legacy:BRx Renimator Playing right now:Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
You can already ruin people's day running blood moon and sideboard fulminator mage/stone rain...
There's no need for modern to add utility lands like you're proposing. Tectonic edge is already a strong answer to manlands/tron/greedy mana bases. At least it lets you have 3 lands in play.
No one wants to be on the draw keep 2 lands and have the opponent lead with mountain 1 drop into turn 2 (basically) waste you, turn 3 waste you all the while beating down with some dork.
We have enough non-basic hate. Like blacklotus and lukey52 already said keep that **** in Legacy where it belongs.
Our dual lands shock us. Verdant Catacombs -> Overgrown Tomb -> Thoughtseize means I basically start the game with only 3/4 of my life total. I don't know why people still don't get that that makes them balanced already.
Eh, I think 3+ colors is greedy, although 1-2 colors is fine.
Anyway, here are a couple of my ideas for this:
Safer Ghost Quarter Land T: Add 1 to your mana pool. 1, T, Sacrifice Safer Ghost Quarter: Exile target nonbasic land. Its controller may search his or her library for a basic land card, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle his or her library. Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library.
Collapsing World Edge Land t: Add 1 to your mana pool. 2, t, Exile Collapsing World Edge: Exile target non-basic land.
((Do Collapsing World Edge with an illustration of one of those flat fanstasy worlds with the edge of the world with water pouring off having a chunk of the land and sea breaking off on the edge and starting to fall. Exile clause helps justify higher mana cost compared to normal Wasteland, and makes sure the land you get rid of is gone for good))
Tectonic Edge, Blood Moon, and the hatebears already punish people's "greedy" mana bases.
They're not really greedy though, they're just multicoloured.
Greedy is playing 4-5 colours, not 2-3.
Tec Edge is lethal to 4-5 colour decks, and still very good against normal 3 colour decks.
Exactly.
Since when is a 3-color deck greedy? It's pretty much the norm everywhere.
Eh, I think 3 color decks can count as greedy quite easily. Not all of them perhaps, especially ones that are primarily two color with a light splash and even those two colors they mostly are paying for colorless costs on spells. But a more than two color deck with cards like Cryptic Command in it? Or a deck that wants to cast 3 color cards by turn 3 (Esper Charm)? Or a deck that eventually wants to hard-cast Cruel Ultimatum? Those are totally greedy.
:symtap:, sacrifice ~: Put a waste counter on target nonbasic land. As long as that land has a waste counter on it, it loses all abilities and land types and has :symtap:: add 1 to your mana pool.
A wasteland that deals with utility lands and colored sources without also preventing expensive spells from being cast.
Tectonic Edge, Blood Moon, and the hatebears already punish people's "greedy" mana bases.
I disagree. Blood moon is not a hard card to play around especially when you see it coming which you should game 2 and 3 at the least.
Hatebears and death and taxes can be played around if you know what the decks do and how the match up goes.
Tec edge is too slow. It doesnt stop turn 4 twin/rhinos, burn's splashed colors, affinty/infect's man/utility lands, bogles and most combo and aggro decks. It really only messes with tron that is slow to get their tron lands and control decks that rely on manlands though it turns off turn 4 cryptics which is nice.
If we count every land that does something else than just for tapping mana then both lists run exactly 6.
UWR: 4 Cestial Colonnade, 2 Tectonic Edge
Abzan: 3 Treetop Village, 2 Gavony Township, 1 Tectonic Edge
If we only count the colorless ones than yes Abzan does run one more but that is just a specialty of this specific list.
My list runs only a single Vault of the Archangel and a two-two split of Stirring Wildwood and Treetop Village.
Fair points everyone. I guess modern doesn't really need any more nonbasic land hate than I already has. I mostly made this thread to try and provide a constructive answer to people who want Wasteland itself reprinted in modern (which I think would be horrible).
I dunno, I'd call a deck that wants to go Thoughtseize into Goyf into Lilly into Siege Rhino as their basic curve in every single game with all kinds of utility lands kind of greedy.
The main reason I'd be more in favor of this kind of thing is to enable anything that isn't a greedy manabase. It kind of feels like if you aren't jamming at least 3 colors (two of those being B/G), you're playing casual magic compared to everyone else. Hell, even a 2 color deck is unplayable in modern right now.
What I really want is a legitimate reason to for decks to not have a greedy manabase, because right now there isn't one at all. Blood Moon is a lot easier to play around than people think.
greedy mana bases are already punished by inconsistency and life loss
we already have the means to destroy utility and manlands in every color
more 'wastelands' would only lead to lame and random mana screws against people who don't even have a greedy mana base but are just slightly unlucky, so the answer is none, tec edge and ghost quarter are perfectly fine and usable by all colors.
1. How are they inconsistent? They're easily able to get every single color they need on curve all the time. The lifeloss is only meaningful against burn and no one else. IE if you're playing Junk and going up against Ux control, shocking yourself to get the right colors means nothing because you'll just be able to rip apart their hands with Lilly anyway so they won't be able to do anything about it. There's no reason not to unless you're against burn, which is why you sideboard appropriately for that matchup.
2. Elaborate. Please. Unless Tec Edge counts as being "in every color".
3. I don't really see it that way. I see it as enabling strategies that don't rely on 10+ shocklands and fetches to operate, because not playing that kind of strategy is strictly worse than what I described. The lifeloss really isn't that much of a burden unless your meta is nothing but burn.
This whole "Shocklands are actually bad because they take away life" reasoning is like trying to say that the lifeloss from Necropotence stops it from being a busted card.
and what exactly do you want? autowin if the other guy plays 3+ colors?
If you're playing less than 3 colors and you go up against someone who is playing a 5 color goodstuff deck, you've already lost before you've even drawn your opening hand. You have to have something to even the odds. If nothing else, what do you suggest?
Modern as a format is already too fast: anything above 4 mana is unplayable. Do we really want more tools to deprive people of mana to put even more pressure on them to play cheap cards? If people are pissed off because 3 color dominates, than the solution is to give something to mono to make it suck less.
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Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
This whole "Shocklands are actually bad because they take away life" reasoning is like trying to say that the lifeloss from Necropotence stops it from being a busted card.
and what exactly do you want? autowin if the other guy plays 3+ colors?
If you're playing less than 3 colors and you go up against someone who is playing a 5 color goodstuff deck, you've already lost before you've even drawn your opening hand. You have to have something to even the odds. If nothing else, what do you suggest?
I agree with, at least part of this.
Right now in Modern, there is no incentive to play one or two colour decks. The mana is just too good and relatively easy to play 3+ colour decks. So many decks play insane mana costs (going B - 1G - 1BB - 1BGW is nuts but super common or R - 1U - 1WWU / 1UUU). Losing 1-5 life does not balance out the advantage given by playing these kind of decks.
No I dont think we should get Wasteland back; but there definitely should be more incentive than there currently is not to go super greedy with the manabase.
I think that cards like Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx are a better way to boost mono-color decks instead of trying to gimp 3+ color decks. Devotion is a good mechanic that could have probably been pushed a bit more for Modern. Hopefully, we see similar help for mono-color and 2-color decks in the future.
I think a card like rishadan port would be acceptable. The average CMC in modern is much higher in modern which as much as I love the card wasteland would be too punishing currently. However, if the cmc gets more focused on 1 to 2 drops like legacy, and occasional three drop. I think wasteland would be fine.
I think that cards like Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx are a better way to boost mono-color decks instead of trying to gimp 3+ color decks. Devotion is a good mechanic that could have probably been pushed a bit more for Modern. Hopefully, we see similar help for mono-color and 2-color decks in the future.
I agree completely. I was excited for devotion and wish it had been a little more pushed.
I personally see the easy multicolored manabases in modern as a loss of diversity. Monocolored decks are unplayable (you'd always be better off splashing). Magic is interesting when we get (and are forced to) think through our decisions. As is, you are never required to consider your 2nd color or even 3rd color. I think that is a loss of diversity there.
Similarly, I see 12 fetchlands in every single high-tier deck. That too is a loss of diversity. I wish people had to think through those decisions, where currently there is no reason not to max out on fetches.
And yes, I know Tectonic Edge is a thing, but I still feel that people don't really take any lands into consideration when designing manabases. Something that hates on greedy manabases but doesn't take up a spell slot and can't easily be countered is something I think merits discussion. And of course you can also answer that Tec Edge is enough, because it might be. I'm just spitballing here.
The real question is - what role should a new Wasteland effect play?
Should it be dealing with non-mana activated, triggered and static abilities of nonbasics? Stunting opponents' mana development? Or interfering with super greedy colored mana bases? Tec Edge achieves the first and third of those goals acceptably. Legacy offers Sinkhole, Stifle, Wasteland and Rishadan Port to do the second.
The formats its already non-interactive for added more non-interactive cards that sucks to play against
RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron
R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries
Legacy:BRx Renimator
Playing right now: Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
There's no need for modern to add utility lands like you're proposing. Tectonic edge is already a strong answer to manlands/tron/greedy mana bases. At least it lets you have 3 lands in play.
No one wants to be on the draw keep 2 lands and have the opponent lead with mountain 1 drop into turn 2 (basically) waste you, turn 3 waste you all the while beating down with some dork.
Our dual lands shock us. Verdant Catacombs -> Overgrown Tomb -> Thoughtseize means I basically start the game with only 3/4 of my life total. I don't know why people still don't get that that makes them balanced already.
Anyway, here are a couple of my ideas for this:
Safer Ghost Quarter
Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
1, T, Sacrifice Safer Ghost Quarter: Exile target nonbasic land. Its controller may search his or her library for a basic land card, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle his or her library. Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library.
Collapsing World Edge
Land
t: Add 1 to your mana pool.
2, t, Exile Collapsing World Edge: Exile target non-basic land.
((Do Collapsing World Edge with an illustration of one of those flat fanstasy worlds with the edge of the world with water pouring off having a chunk of the land and sea breaking off on the edge and starting to fall. Exile clause helps justify higher mana cost compared to normal Wasteland, and makes sure the land you get rid of is gone for good))
Exactly.
Since when is a 3-color deck greedy? It's pretty much the norm everywhere.
, , Sacrifice ~ : Destroy target nonbasic land. Activate this ability only if an opponent controls four or more lands.
There's two counters to greedy mana bases right now:
1) Blood Moon
2) Burn
I think having to pay 2 life to get an untapped shock is a fair cost for good mana in your deck.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Eh, I think 3 color decks can count as greedy quite easily. Not all of them perhaps, especially ones that are primarily two color with a light splash and even those two colors they mostly are paying for colorless costs on spells. But a more than two color deck with cards like Cryptic Command in it? Or a deck that wants to cast 3 color cards by turn 3 (Esper Charm)? Or a deck that eventually wants to hard-cast Cruel Ultimatum? Those are totally greedy.
Land
:symtap:, sacrifice ~: Put a waste counter on target nonbasic land. As long as that land has a waste counter on it, it loses all abilities and land types and has :symtap:: add 1 to your mana pool.
A wasteland that deals with utility lands and colored sources without also preventing expensive spells from being cast.
I disagree. Blood moon is not a hard card to play around especially when you see it coming which you should game 2 and 3 at the least.
Hatebears and death and taxes can be played around if you know what the decks do and how the match up goes.
Tec edge is too slow. It doesnt stop turn 4 twin/rhinos, burn's splashed colors, affinty/infect's man/utility lands, bogles and most combo and aggro decks. It really only messes with tron that is slow to get their tron lands and control decks that rely on manlands though it turns off turn 4 cryptics which is nice.
I didn't expect anything else from a Death & Taxes player
But seriously look at this UWR Control list that did go 3-1 in a Daily
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Lingering Souls
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Anticipate
2 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
3 Mana Leak
3 Path to Exile
2 Remand
2 Spell Snare
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Watery Grave
1 Celestial Purge
1 Counterflux
2 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Rest for the Weary
2 Sowing Salt
2 Stony Silence
2 Wear // Tear
Now at this Abzan list that made first place at IQ Providence
1 Dismember
1 Dromoka's Command
3 Path to Exile
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Siege Rhino
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple Garden
3 Treetop Village
2 Twilight Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Choke
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
1 Sudden Death
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Timely Reinforcements
If we count every land that does something else than just for tapping mana then both lists run exactly 6.
UWR: 4 Cestial Colonnade, 2 Tectonic Edge
Abzan: 3 Treetop Village, 2 Gavony Township, 1 Tectonic Edge
If we only count the colorless ones than yes Abzan does run one more but that is just a specialty of this specific list.
My list runs only a single Vault of the Archangel and a two-two split of Stirring Wildwood and Treetop Village.
But if there were to be a new non-basic hate card that is also a land, I would base it off of Rishadan Port:
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
1, T: Tap target nonbasic land.
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The main reason I'd be more in favor of this kind of thing is to enable anything that isn't a greedy manabase. It kind of feels like if you aren't jamming at least 3 colors (two of those being B/G), you're playing casual magic compared to everyone else. Hell, even a 2 color deck is unplayable in modern right now.
What I really want is a legitimate reason to for decks to not have a greedy manabase, because right now there isn't one at all. Blood Moon is a lot easier to play around than people think.
1. How are they inconsistent? They're easily able to get every single color they need on curve all the time. The lifeloss is only meaningful against burn and no one else. IE if you're playing Junk and going up against Ux control, shocking yourself to get the right colors means nothing because you'll just be able to rip apart their hands with Lilly anyway so they won't be able to do anything about it. There's no reason not to unless you're against burn, which is why you sideboard appropriately for that matchup.
2. Elaborate. Please. Unless Tec Edge counts as being "in every color".
3. I don't really see it that way. I see it as enabling strategies that don't rely on 10+ shocklands and fetches to operate, because not playing that kind of strategy is strictly worse than what I described. The lifeloss really isn't that much of a burden unless your meta is nothing but burn.
If you're playing less than 3 colors and you go up against someone who is playing a 5 color goodstuff deck, you've already lost before you've even drawn your opening hand. You have to have something to even the odds. If nothing else, what do you suggest?
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
I agree with, at least part of this.
Right now in Modern, there is no incentive to play one or two colour decks. The mana is just too good and relatively easy to play 3+ colour decks. So many decks play insane mana costs (going B - 1G - 1BB - 1BGW is nuts but super common or R - 1U - 1WWU / 1UUU). Losing 1-5 life does not balance out the advantage given by playing these kind of decks.
No I dont think we should get Wasteland back; but there definitely should be more incentive than there currently is not to go super greedy with the manabase.
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I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
I agree completely. I was excited for devotion and wish it had been a little more pushed.
I personally see the easy multicolored manabases in modern as a loss of diversity. Monocolored decks are unplayable (you'd always be better off splashing). Magic is interesting when we get (and are forced to) think through our decisions. As is, you are never required to consider your 2nd color or even 3rd color. I think that is a loss of diversity there.
Similarly, I see 12 fetchlands in every single high-tier deck. That too is a loss of diversity. I wish people had to think through those decisions, where currently there is no reason not to max out on fetches.
Void
Legendary Land
"Lands with activated abilities that aren't mana abilities can't be tapped."
Or some sort of variation on the above.