I'm looking for a finisher for my r/B control deck. After combing my options these seem like the two best toppers for the deck. My question is, as a finisher for a control deck which is better?
Sarkhan is a PW and obviously control decks are all about value so a PW fits in nicely. He is extremely hard to deal with and dodges most removal including Hero's Downfall on my turn. If I need another mode he can even provide some additional value beyond just being a creature. However, he is still weak to Path and Lingering Souls tokens. I'm not really worried about the token because I run sweepers and such which is another advantage, he survives my own sweepers.
Stormbreath Dragon dodges tokens and and Path but not my own sweepers. He is also soft to removal from other colors where Sarkhan is really weak only to Dreadbore, Hero's Downfall, Path, and O. Ring/Stone effects.
I'm thinking Sarkhan really is the better option simply by comparison to Gideon Jura in U/W control but I'm curious to see what others think before I make my investment.
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Stormbreath Dragon. He basically only dies to Dismember, Maelstrom Pulse, and Terminate while Sarkhan dies to both Dismember, Maelstrom Pulse, and Path to Exile. Stormbreath Dragon also can go monstrous, which is pretty useful.
I think Sarkhan is actually a cool 1 of win con in a control deck, but any Aggro deck should be playing Thundermaw Hellkite right now for lingering souls
I did mention it was for a control deck. If it were an aggro or mid-range deck I think the choice would be much easier. Control really likes cards that come with tons of value and nothing is better than a Walker for value. The problem is I also need a finisher. I like Sarkhan because if I pull him and am not in a position to start swinging towards end game then I can use him to help get the board back under my control. That is something that Stormbreath can't do but I agree with Valanarch that dodging Path is more important than dodging Terminate and without counterspells I'm relying on built in resilience to make the win happen, resiliences like Haste and Pro-White or Haste and indesctructible.
One dodges Path and dies to Doom Blade and the other dodges Doom Blade and dies to Path. I hate to say it but I think that dodging Path is more important in this meta.
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If you only have Standard cards for your modern deck than I would say Stormbreath Dragon, otherwise Thundermaw Hellkite.
If there are any BW tokens players in your meta Stormbreath is better. If it's just Junk and Esper, then Thundermaw has merit. I don't think Sarkhan is very effective compared to the other two.
I think both cards are playable depending on your meta. Sarkhan is better against aggro cause he kills dudes, but I like Stormy a little bit more overall. He's just really hard to get rid of and attacks through Souls Tokens.
Especially for controlling decks, I generally tend to prefer Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker over both Stormbreath and Thundermaw because Sarkhan the Red can kill opposing creatures, which Stormbreath and Thundermaw can't (always) do. Thundermaw kills opposing flying 1/1's, sure, but what if you really need to off Deceiver Exarch, that 3/4 Goyf, an Ornithopter with a Cranial Plating, or that Blighted Agent?
Sarkhan the Red has lost value in the current meta, true, as Abzan insists on playing 4/5's (some with meh evasion) instead of X/4-'s.
It also feels a bit bizarre that opponents can eliminate Sarkhan the Red simply by attacking (into) him, while they sensibly can't eliminate Stormbreath or Thundermaw the same way...but I really generally prefer killing creatures with my 5-cmc Haste Dragon.
Especially for controlling decks, I generally tend to prefer Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker over both Stormbreath and Thundermaw because Sarkhan the Red can kill opposing creatures, which Stormbreath and Thundermaw can't (always) do. Thundermaw kills opposing flying 1/1's, sure, but what if you really need to off Deceiver Exarch, that 3/4 Goyf, an Ornithopter with a Cranial Plating, or that Blighted Agent?
I don't really buy this. Unless you are playing Relic or something, there is absolutely no way Goyf is 3/4 on turn 5. And Sarkhan misses everything else important in Junk, including Tas, Rhino, Souls tokens, and often Lilly (deals 1 less damage than Thundermaw, stonewalled by Spirits). Sarkhan killing Exarch is notable, but then he just dies to Bolt, Mite, Tiago, and/or Electrolyze. The Affinity example is also super corner case, although the Infect one is a little better.
Thundermaw seems like the clear winner right now. It can block and kill the average Goyf or Rhino/Tas, it kills Souls and then probably kills Lilly, and it kills Pestermites/Cliques. The only thing Thundermaw is soft to is Path, but Sarkhan also gets wrecked by PtE so that's not giving him any bonus points either. Stormbreath dodges Path and also probably connects with Lilly even against Souls (pro white), but on turn 5 it's not a kill on her if she already got up to 5 loyalty. Sure, she couldn't -2 to kill Dragon at that point (she'd be at 4 loyalty), but now you've committed 2 turns to killing her and still haven't affected any other aspect of the board.
If you only have Standard cards for your modern deck than I would say Stormbreath Dragon, otherwise Thundermaw Hellkite.
If there are any BW tokens players in your meta Stormbreath is better. If it's just Junk and Esper, then Thundermaw has merit. I don't think Sarkhan is very effective compared to the other two.
Actually Thundermaw is much better against the token decks. You wipe their whole board when it enters the battlefield. They both end up dieing to Murderous Cut, Dismember, Go for the Throat, etc. So I prefer Thundermaw as a free one-sided wrath against tokens, also bigger.
Especially for controlling decks, I generally tend to prefer Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker over both Stormbreath and Thundermaw because Sarkhan the Red can kill opposing creatures, which Stormbreath and Thundermaw can't (always) do. Thundermaw kills opposing flying 1/1's, sure, but what if you really need to off Deceiver Exarch, that 3/4 Goyf, an Ornithopter with a Cranial Plating, or that Blighted Agent?
I don't really buy this. Unless you are playing Relic or something, there is absolutely no way Goyf is 3/4 on turn 5. And Sarkhan misses everything else important in Junk, including Tas, Rhino, Souls tokens, and often Lilly (deals 1 less damage than Thundermaw, stonewalled by Spirits). Sarkhan killing Exarch is notable, but then he just dies to Bolt, Mite, Tiago, and/or Electrolyze. The Affinity example is also super corner case, although the Infect one is a little better.
Thundermaw seems like the clear winner right now. It can block and kill the average Goyf or Rhino/Tas, it kills Souls and then probably kills Lilly, and it kills Pestermites/Cliques. The only thing Thundermaw is soft to is Path, but Sarkhan also gets wrecked by PtE so that's not giving him any bonus points either. Stormbreath dodges Path and also probably connects with Lilly even against Souls (pro white), but on turn 5 it's not a kill on her if she already got up to 5 loyalty. Sure, she couldn't -2 to kill Dragon at that point (she'd be at 4 loyalty), but now you've committed 2 turns to killing her and still haven't affected any other aspect of the board.
Remember this is for a control deck. I run Wraths and 4x Dreadbore main so I don't need my Dragon to kill opposing tokens or Walkers, I have other ways of dealing with that. What I need is a finisher that won't hit the field and immediately eat a Path. Granted I feel like I have a strong Abzan matchup so being weak to Path isn't really that big of a deal. Stormbreath is so much better than Thundermaw against U/W/r though especially with its Monstrous ability is also really good. Once it resolves there isn't much they can do to remove it save a sweeper. It also avoids the random Resto Angel being flashed in to block it.
I can't really think of any other matchup where Thundermaw offers me something that is so good that I'd rather have it over Stormbreath. Its going in a deck alongside Geralf's Messenger so I have the direct damage thing down, I just need a strong "drop it and ride" finisher and Stormbreath does that better than Thundermaw because of its protection from Path. Otherwise I think I'd rather have Sarkhan over Thundermaw because its more resilient there too. Sarkhan dodges all "Destroy Creature" effects and sorcery speed "Exile Creature" effects being weak only to Dismember and things which remove any permanent such as Maelstrom Pulse.
The only thing I can think of that would really sway my decision is Galvanic Blast and Flame Slash. Against those I would rather have Sarkhan. In a meta with more Path I would rather have Stormbreath. I really think Stormbreath is where I want to be.
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Remember this is for a control deck. I run Wraths and 4x Dreadbore main so I don't need my Dragon to kill opposing tokens or Walkers, I have other ways of dealing with that. What I need is a finisher that won't hit the field and immediately eat a Path. Granted I feel like I have a strong Abzan matchup so being weak to Path isn't really that big of a deal. Stormbreath is so much better than Thundermaw against U/W/r though especially with its Monstrous ability is also really good. Once it resolves there isn't much they can do to remove it save a sweeper. It also avoids the random Resto Angel being flashed in to block it.
Well, if your only concern is Path and UWR Control decks, then you obviously go with Stormbreath. Neither Sarkhan nor Thundermaw have any resilience to Path. I just assumed that you had other considerations aside from Path and UWR Control, or you wouldn't have mentioned Sarkhan in the first place. You even mentioned Souls tokens and other matchups in your first post, but if you think that your wrath effects are enough then I guess that's no longer a consideration?
I can't really think of any other matchup where Thundermaw offers me something that is so good that I'd rather have it over Stormbreath. Its going in a deck alongside Geralf's Messenger so I have the direct damage thing down, I just need a strong "drop it and ride" finisher and Stormbreath does that better than Thundermaw because of its protection from Path. Otherwise I think I'd rather have Sarkhan over Thundermaw because its more resilient there too. Sarkhan dodges all "Destroy Creature" effects and sorcery speed "Exile Creature" effects being weak only to Dismember and things which remove any permanent such as Maelstrom Pulse.
Thundermaw is a great topdeck when you are behind. He can block Rhino/Goyf/Tas. He kills enemy spirits/Mite/Clique. And he can immediately kill most enemy Lillys. Stormbreath is better when you are ahead. So if you think you are always going to be ahead, or ahead more than you are behind or even, then go with Stormbreath. But I don't think that's realistic, especially given that Abzan has a pretty decent matchup against control decks, and there is so much aggro in the format. Unless you've found some magic control build, my guess is that your deck faces the same struggles as most other control decks, which would suggest that Thundermaw is the better come-from-behind bomb you want.
I guess I'm just worried about top decking Thundermaw, dropping it and getting it immediately Path'd and them swining in with their Rhino. With Stormbreath, even if I don't immediately swing with it, it can still endlessly block a Rhino. Short of them pulling a Maelstrom Pulse or Lili on an otherwise empty board they can't do anything about a Stormbreath.
I will say this though, the feedback has been overwhelming in favor of Thundermaw so I have to say he is worth a shot.
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If you only have Standard cards for your modern deck than I would say Stormbreath Dragon, otherwise Thundermaw Hellkite.
If there are any BW tokens players in your meta Stormbreath is better. If it's just Junk and Esper, then Thundermaw has merit. I don't think Sarkhan is very effective compared to the other two.
Actually Thundermaw is much better against the token decks. You wipe their whole board when it enters the battlefield. They both end up dieing to Murderous Cut, Dismember, Go for the Throat, etc. So I prefer Thundermaw as a free one-sided wrath against tokens, also bigger.
I'll never forget how big a laugh I had when someone at my LGS sided Sulfur Elemental against tokens and proceeded to get beat down by 3/1 (or bigger) fliers.
Remember this is for a control deck. I run Wraths and 4x Dreadbore main so I don't need my Dragon to kill opposing tokens or Walkers, I have other ways of dealing with that. What I need is a finisher that won't hit the field and immediately eat a Path. Granted I feel like I have a strong Abzan matchup so being weak to Path isn't really that big of a deal. Stormbreath is so much better than Thundermaw against U/W/r though especially with its Monstrous ability is also really good. Once it resolves there isn't much they can do to remove it save a sweeper. It also avoids the random Resto Angel being flashed in to block it.
I can't really think of any other matchup where Thundermaw offers me something that is so good that I'd rather have it over Stormbreath. Its going in a deck alongside Geralf's Messenger so I have the direct damage thing down, I just need a strong "drop it and ride" finisher and Stormbreath does that better than Thundermaw because of its protection from Path. Otherwise I think I'd rather have Sarkhan over Thundermaw because its more resilient there too. Sarkhan dodges all "Destroy Creature" effects and sorcery speed "Exile Creature" effects being weak only to Dismember and things which remove any permanent such as Maelstrom Pulse.
The only thing I can think of that would really sway my decision is Galvanic Blast and Flame Slash. Against those I would rather have Sarkhan. In a meta with more Path I would rather have Stormbreath. I really think Stormbreath is where I want to be.
Well it sounds like you've already made your decision. Stormbreath and Sarkham are much worse than Thundermaw in modern but whatever floats your boat.
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He dodges it on your turn. Once you activate his +1 he gains indestructible so Hero's Downfall can't kill him which means that versus Sarkhan Hero's Downfall is a 3cmc Dreadbore half the time.
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I have experience with both cards from playing them in standard, I would say Stormbreath makes the most sense in your modern plan. Its immune to path, and it basically has protection from red by being out of bolt range. Souls tokens cant chump block it either.
TThat's a timing thing and only works because the spell resolves on the stack above the ability which grants him Indestructible. Once the +1 activates he is immune to Hero's Downfall though. Its not much but it does enforce a timing limitation on your opponent which can force/cause misplays if they aren't paying attention.
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Ive been playing skred red pretty much exclusively for several months now. And the big variations in that deck come in your top-end so this is a question skred players are already VERY familiar with.
Heres how it breaks down.
Stormbreath dodges white removal and has monstrous for icing. In skred koth makes monstrous alot more relevant. But still not necessarily something to be a deciding factor. Depending on the board you may be on the back-foot vs tokens and stormbreath > thundermaw for blocking as path wont be a concern.
thundermaw is a faster clock than either and hes etb trigger, while very nice, often isnt quite as good as it looks.
And finally sarkhan. Personally i feel he is most often the best choice and heres why. Not only does he dodge a similar amount of removal as stormbreath, albeit nothing as relevant as path, but he can also be a flametounge kavu when needed. If you go sarkhan -> 4 damage to their guy -> then they spend removal on him. Sure you lost your sarkhan. But the board state has been brought toward neutral and youre opponent lost 2 cards to your 1. As opposed to stormbreath -> murderous cut the board state hasnt changed and youve just been 1 for 1'd on a 5 mana investment.
Against any deck with sweet x/4's and no paths sarkhan is completely superior. Even with paths theyre at least equal.
R/B should have no issues with creature removal between damnation, terminate, dismember, murderous cut, etc. So I think Sarkhan's removal can be ignored for a better wincon.
I'd say Stormbreath is best for his resilience (especially post-board Celestial Purge), and other options could be Thundermaw, Grave Titan, Batterskull...
I'm looking for a finisher for my r/B control deck. After combing my options these seem like the two best toppers for the deck. My question is, as a finisher for a control deck which is better?
Sarkhan is a PW and obviously control decks are all about value so a PW fits in nicely. He is extremely hard to deal with and dodges most removal including Hero's Downfall on my turn. If I need another mode he can even provide some additional value beyond just being a creature. However, he is still weak to Path and Lingering Souls tokens. I'm not really worried about the token because I run sweepers and such which is another advantage, he survives my own sweepers.
Stormbreath Dragon dodges tokens and and Path but not my own sweepers. He is also soft to removal from other colors where Sarkhan is really weak only to Dreadbore, Hero's Downfall, Path, and O. Ring/Stone effects.
I'm thinking Sarkhan really is the better option simply by comparison to Gideon Jura in U/W control but I'm curious to see what others think before I make my investment.
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Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
One dodges Path and dies to Doom Blade and the other dodges Doom Blade and dies to Path. I hate to say it but I think that dodging Path is more important in this meta.
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If there are any BW tokens players in your meta Stormbreath is better. If it's just Junk and Esper, then Thundermaw has merit. I don't think Sarkhan is very effective compared to the other two.
I think both cards are playable depending on your meta. Sarkhan is better against aggro cause he kills dudes, but I like Stormy a little bit more overall. He's just really hard to get rid of and attacks through Souls Tokens.
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Sarkhan the Red has lost value in the current meta, true, as Abzan insists on playing 4/5's (some with meh evasion) instead of X/4-'s.
It also feels a bit bizarre that opponents can eliminate Sarkhan the Red simply by attacking (into) him, while they sensibly can't eliminate Stormbreath or Thundermaw the same way...but I really generally prefer killing creatures with my 5-cmc Haste Dragon.
I don't really buy this. Unless you are playing Relic or something, there is absolutely no way Goyf is 3/4 on turn 5. And Sarkhan misses everything else important in Junk, including Tas, Rhino, Souls tokens, and often Lilly (deals 1 less damage than Thundermaw, stonewalled by Spirits). Sarkhan killing Exarch is notable, but then he just dies to Bolt, Mite, Tiago, and/or Electrolyze. The Affinity example is also super corner case, although the Infect one is a little better.
Thundermaw seems like the clear winner right now. It can block and kill the average Goyf or Rhino/Tas, it kills Souls and then probably kills Lilly, and it kills Pestermites/Cliques. The only thing Thundermaw is soft to is Path, but Sarkhan also gets wrecked by PtE so that's not giving him any bonus points either. Stormbreath dodges Path and also probably connects with Lilly even against Souls (pro white), but on turn 5 it's not a kill on her if she already got up to 5 loyalty. Sure, she couldn't -2 to kill Dragon at that point (she'd be at 4 loyalty), but now you've committed 2 turns to killing her and still haven't affected any other aspect of the board.
Actually Thundermaw is much better against the token decks. You wipe their whole board when it enters the battlefield. They both end up dieing to Murderous Cut, Dismember, Go for the Throat, etc. So I prefer Thundermaw as a free one-sided wrath against tokens, also bigger.
I agree with this analysis.
I can't really think of any other matchup where Thundermaw offers me something that is so good that I'd rather have it over Stormbreath. Its going in a deck alongside Geralf's Messenger so I have the direct damage thing down, I just need a strong "drop it and ride" finisher and Stormbreath does that better than Thundermaw because of its protection from Path. Otherwise I think I'd rather have Sarkhan over Thundermaw because its more resilient there too. Sarkhan dodges all "Destroy Creature" effects and sorcery speed "Exile Creature" effects being weak only to Dismember and things which remove any permanent such as Maelstrom Pulse.
The only thing I can think of that would really sway my decision is Galvanic Blast and Flame Slash. Against those I would rather have Sarkhan. In a meta with more Path I would rather have Stormbreath. I really think Stormbreath is where I want to be.
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Well, if your only concern is Path and UWR Control decks, then you obviously go with Stormbreath. Neither Sarkhan nor Thundermaw have any resilience to Path. I just assumed that you had other considerations aside from Path and UWR Control, or you wouldn't have mentioned Sarkhan in the first place. You even mentioned Souls tokens and other matchups in your first post, but if you think that your wrath effects are enough then I guess that's no longer a consideration?
Thundermaw is a great topdeck when you are behind. He can block Rhino/Goyf/Tas. He kills enemy spirits/Mite/Clique. And he can immediately kill most enemy Lillys. Stormbreath is better when you are ahead. So if you think you are always going to be ahead, or ahead more than you are behind or even, then go with Stormbreath. But I don't think that's realistic, especially given that Abzan has a pretty decent matchup against control decks, and there is so much aggro in the format. Unless you've found some magic control build, my guess is that your deck faces the same struggles as most other control decks, which would suggest that Thundermaw is the better come-from-behind bomb you want.
I will say this though, the feedback has been overwhelming in favor of Thundermaw so I have to say he is worth a shot.
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I'll never forget how big a laugh I had when someone at my LGS sided Sulfur Elemental against tokens and proceeded to get beat down by 3/1 (or bigger) fliers.
Well it sounds like you've already made your decision. Stormbreath and Sarkham are much worse than Thundermaw in modern but whatever floats your boat.
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Why do you say that?
He dodges it on your turn. Once you activate his +1 he gains indestructible so Hero's Downfall can't kill him which means that versus Sarkhan Hero's Downfall is a 3cmc Dreadbore half the time.
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Heres how it breaks down.
Stormbreath dodges white removal and has monstrous for icing. In skred koth makes monstrous alot more relevant. But still not necessarily something to be a deciding factor. Depending on the board you may be on the back-foot vs tokens and stormbreath > thundermaw for blocking as path wont be a concern.
thundermaw is a faster clock than either and hes etb trigger, while very nice, often isnt quite as good as it looks.
And finally sarkhan. Personally i feel he is most often the best choice and heres why. Not only does he dodge a similar amount of removal as stormbreath, albeit nothing as relevant as path, but he can also be a flametounge kavu when needed. If you go sarkhan -> 4 damage to their guy -> then they spend removal on him. Sure you lost your sarkhan. But the board state has been brought toward neutral and youre opponent lost 2 cards to your 1. As opposed to stormbreath -> murderous cut the board state hasnt changed and youve just been 1 for 1'd on a 5 mana investment.
Against any deck with sweet x/4's and no paths sarkhan is completely superior. Even with paths theyre at least equal.
I'd say Stormbreath is best for his resilience (especially post-board Celestial Purge), and other options could be Thundermaw, Grave Titan, Batterskull...