We need to remember that in a format with Serum Visions, fetches, and some non-0 amount of scry that we have a fair amount of control over the top of our deck. Her +1 is more powerful than people are giving it credit for.
Thank you!
After Turn 4, seeing the top card in synergy with fetches helps you filter your deck. Many players do not see great value in telling time, but it's solid enough on it's own to merit further use in a UWx deck with Narset.
Now that I think about it, I am not sure that Narset will be playable. On average, even in a deck with 30 noncreature spells, she will draw you a card every other turn. This means that it will take her 7-8 turns to draw more cards than Concentrate does (and Concentrate is nowhere near playable). Since her ultimate is pretty slow, her playability depends solely on her minus, which forces you to play at sorcery speed. Looking at WUR Control right now, it only plays around 15 instants or sorceries that you would be willing to cast during your turn to use the rebound on. It might work in Standard, but I am not a fan in Modern.
I feel like if you can unironically play Ashiok, you can play Narset.
That comparison doesn't make sense since the only similarities are that they are 2-color planeswalkers that survive Lightning Bolt. Narset only draws more cards than Concentrate after 7-8 turns. The ultimate is very slow. She costs 4 mana. The only strong ability she has is the rebound ability, but I doubt that it is good enough alone, especially since it forces you to use your mana on your turn.
The comparison is that they're both walkers that have a lot of loyalty available to them, but their "card advantage" engines only activate very conditionally with the possibility of bricking on you, and both have merely "annoying" ultimates that don't win the game on the spot.
I don't even think Ashiok is a good card, but apparently Fabiano thought enough of it to use in his tournament winning deck. My rationale is that if Narset is better than Ashiok (and I suspect she is) then I see no reason why she can't see play.
Costing 4 mana is one reason. Being a stronger Ashiok for more mana isn't necessarily a good thing. One of the main reasons to play Ashiok is that it costs 3 mana.
Narset, she will see play, have no doubt about it, she may even spawn a new archetype.
7 loyalty is a lot, she very slappable on turn 4, she can survive an attack against pretty much everything(unless you watched the aggro player nuke you passively), provided you untapped with her you've got an excelent engine going on as she will stick around.
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Standard
Boring...
Modern WGBJunk:Feel the Rhinos WGB RWUAmerican Taxes RWU
EDH XKarn and the Living StaxX RETIRED GWURoon of The Hidden RealmGWU
Narset, she will see play, have no doubt about it, she may even spawn a new archetype.
7 loyalty is a lot, she very slappable on turn 4, she can survive an attack against pretty much everything(unless you watched the aggro player nuke you passively), provided you untapped with her you've got an excelent engine going on as she will stick around.
How is she "an excellent engine"? She draws you a card every other turn on average. That is pretty bad. The -2 is alright, but it forces you to play your cards at sorcery speed. I see why people like her, but I just don't think that she is good enough.
Ugh another new overcosted garbage black mythic. Wizards is so clueless at making good black mythics. Its ridiculous. That card could say cost two LESS per creature card in its GY and it wouldn't be overpowered in modern.
Narset in a lot of fun in Travis Woo's Doubling Season/Jace AoT deck. Play out all of your Jaces, then plop her down last and not only do you lock the opponent down to casting only creatures, Narset still has 3 more loyalty.
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The Modern Perspective - an article series all about Modern brought to you by PureMTGO.com
How is she "an excellent engine"? She draws you a card every other turn on average. That is pretty bad. The -2 is alright, but it forces you to play your cards at sorcery speed. I see why people like her, but I just don't think that she is good enough.
Let's see, you are drawing extra cards for free, you can double some nasty cards like Supreme Veredict, preventing your opponent from playing creatures, so you can focus on opposing spells, Lightning Helix for extra life, Telling Time for even more cards.
I remember people saying that Tasigur was bad.
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Standard
Boring...
Modern WGBJunk:Feel the Rhinos WGB RWUAmerican Taxes RWU
EDH XKarn and the Living StaxX RETIRED GWURoon of The Hidden RealmGWU
I don't know if someone has talked about this yet but someone posted it in my town's MtG Facebook group. It's from the Daily Financial post on SCG (I'm not Premium so I can't read the original article).
"Narset is one of the best planeswalkers ever printed. No hyperbole here - it's in the sweet spot at four mana, it's almost impossible to remove from the board the first turn it comes down (seven loyalty with the +1 ability), and most of all, it's going to be played in Legacy and Modern. There have been few planeswalkers that made the leap into all three formats. Here's the list, in the order of the amount of play they see in Legacy:
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor
- Liliana of the Veil
- Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Narset combos amazingly well with Sensei's Diving Top, because the worst case scenario is that you put SDT on top of your deck, and then use Narset to draw it. Narset also works amazingly with Brainstorm, both for the first and second ability."
-Ben Bleiweiss
Mostly talking about the Legacy applications of the card but still interesting points of discussion. Is it just hype train? I think only time and a little experimentation will tell.
I don't know if narset will be good or not. I can't see the future. But I really wouldn't be surprised if she challenges Lili as the second best walker in the game.
Add in a bunch of burn spells and ur set to burn and swarm everything that comes in ur way.
Could splash white for boros charm too, for double striking 1/1's.
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Standard : What is Stand-tart
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
Seriously people, this might be the most overrated card since Steam Augury. It isn't going to be good.
I mostly disagree with this. On the one hand, it is being overrated by a lot of people, especially that hyperbolic SCG quote in the Financial Value article. But on the other hand, the reaction to this is too strong in the opposite direction. She should see about as much play as Sorin and JOA in Modern, and maybe even a little more.
All of this mis-evaluation comes from a few factors. Those who underrate her don't understand how valuable 7 loyalty is. But by a similar token, those who overrate her don't understand how the card draw ability really works, which is probably because they never played Domri and/or can't extrapolate Domri's value to Narset's. Mis-evaluation is also happening around her -2 ability. The underraters don't understand just how crazy something like 6 Spirit tokens is, or even just how swingy a Helix would be. But the overraters are trying to combo it with all sorts of bizarre cards, even if the ability doesn't need those cards to be good. Sure, it's smart to consider the possible pairings that people might miss, but you don't need to find the next DTT to make Narset playable.
So overall, this seems like an above average walker that is playable in a few tier 2 decks.
So overall, this seems like an above average walker that is playable in a few tier 2 decks.
It gives many UWx decks a better game vs fair decks. It's probably (although I wont know for sure without testing) strong vs BGx decks like Abzan and Jund.
That alone makes it worth testing and considering.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
I like the new Narset well enough. She's useless vs decks that put pressure on early though. Ajani Vengeant, Elspeth Knight-Errant, and JAoT all do more than the fabled "protect themselves"; they protect YOU. Drawing Narset on turn 4 does nothing at all to protect you from getting run over that turn. And against the most aggressive decks (Burn, Zoo, Little Kid, Affinity, Infect, ect.), interact with them on the early turns, taking turn 4 off for her, and then starting up again probably won't cut it; the damage will be done.
If she's playable (and I think she is!), she'll need to find her use being played on turn 6 in addition to other interaction spells.
She certainly has potential. I've been trying to come up with some ideas on how to best utilize her and in what shells. The best cards if you wanted to make her -2 become at least useable (and in a control mindset), means you'd want to go into black as doubling up on Esper Charm, discard, and Serum Visions are your best plays, and perhaps you'd want to play a 1 of Ojutai's Command to buy back snap, draw, gain 4-8 life, etc. Not the worst interactions, but it doesn't 'feel' fluid. The best win-con to synergize with her +1 is Vedalken Shackles and I'm sure that would be a good way to go. I've also mulled the idea that if you're going black, maybe some superfriends tap-out control deck could work. Discard into Lilli > Jace/Her > Gideon, but that seems a bit weak to combo. I actually think that for a strict draw engine that Jace Beleren would probably be better and doesn't pidgeon hole you as much even though it is weak to Abrupt Decay and Lingering Souls where she is not. I really want to try and find her a home because I'd love to play with her.
You will sideboard agressively against linear aggro decks anyway. this isn't a new problem for control decks. leyline for burn, spellskite for about everything, stony silence, tada.
Trying to decide if UWR or Esper is better to test, I'm liking esper more because of removal, tokens and walkers. I'm having a happy time thinking about rebounding thoughtseize or inquizition, esper charm, token cards, etc. If only utter end was 3cmc and sorcery...
So about all this Narset Transcendant hype, here is my opinion:
It is really really good. Why?
Because at 4-7 starting loyalty for only 4 mana it will be a pain to get rid of!
She gets herself out of "bolt range" and the opponent will need a lot of creatures.
Also, she misses Abrupt Decay, that's nice.
She will stick around for a long time.
For 4 mana, you get to draw an extra card every turn (in the right build) and double your spells when you need to.
The ability to do that is insane, this is a long-run planeswalker.
This isn't a Liliana of the Veil that comes out strong like a Cruel Edict into a Raven's Crime.
This is a planeswalker that can take a beating and just won't die. 7 loyalty.. 7!!!! for 4 mana!!!
Think about just being able to +1 every turn and -2 when you've got the right spell?
Even if the opponent does decide they want to work to kill her, that's resources not going towards you, and honestly, the average amount of work needed to kill Narset is WAY above what is needed to kill the other "good" walkers. Yeah they "protect themselves" but not in the same way as 7 loyalty does.
So about all this Narset Transcendant hype, here is my opinion:
It is really really good. Why?
Because at 4-7 starting loyalty for only 4 mana it will be a pain to get rid of!
She gets herself out of "bolt range" and the opponent will need a lot of creatures.
Also, she misses Abrupt Decay, that's nice.
She will stick around for a long time.
For 4 mana, you get to draw an extra card every turn (in the right build) and double your spells when you need to.
The ability to do that is insane, this is a long-run planeswalker.
This isn't a Liliana of the Veil that comes out strong like a Cruel Edict into a Raven's Crime.
This is a planeswalker that can take a beating and just won't die. 7 loyalty.. 7!!!! for 4 mana!!!
Think about just being able to +1 every turn and -2 when you've got the right spell?
Even if the opponent does decide they want to work to kill her, that's resources not going towards you, and honestly, the average amount of work needed to kill Narset is WAY above what is needed to kill the other "good" walkers. Yeah they "protect themselves" but not in the same way as 7 loyalty does.
She protects herself, but not you. I feel like it's hard to main deck her compared to Jace or Ajani Vengeant because they protect you in multiple ways. I mean in games that drag on and become value wars she's very strong (although not worlds beyond Jace/Ajani).
I guess my question about her is what match-up does adding 2 Narset to the deck over 2 Jace improve? It hurts the aggro match-up, so what does it offer that Jace does not?
This card is so much better than jace. The only card jace is superior against is lingering souls, and even thats debatable since he just puts you at par against them.
Again its not hard for a control deck that this would go in to make the game go long. UW based control only dies early to nut draws/when it stumbles hard. Its very unlikely its going to die before it can cast and use this -2. You can maindeck lifegain and trade one for on when you have cards like this.
Seriously people, this might be the most overrated card since Steam Augury. It isn't going to be good.
I mostly disagree with this. On the one hand, it is being overrated by a lot of people, especially that hyperbolic SCG quote in the Financial Value article. But on the other hand, the reaction to this is too strong in the opposite direction. She should see about as much play as Sorin and JOA in Modern, and maybe even a little more.
All of this mis-evaluation comes from a few factors. Those who underrate her don't understand how valuable 7 loyalty is. But by a similar token, those who overrate her don't understand how the card draw ability really works, which is probably because they never played Domri and/or can't extrapolate Domri's value to Narset's.
7 loyalty is only worth something if the planewalker is good. If it isn't, I can just ignore it.
Mis-evaluation is also happening around her -2 ability. The underraters don't understand just how crazy something like 6 Spirit tokens is, or even just how swingy a Helix would be. But the overraters are trying to combo it with all sorts of bizarre cards, even if the ability doesn't need those cards to be good. Sure, it's smart to consider the possible pairings that people might miss, but you don't need to find the next DTT to make Narset playable.
The thing is, the -2 ability isn't much better than the abilities of other planeswalkers, specifically Ajani Vengeant. If you play Ajani on a board with less than 2 threats, he can kill one without needing the extra card in your hand to rebound. Yes, he is left at a low loyalty, but the point is that he helped you stabilize so he shouldn't be immediately dead. Narset needs a useful card in your hand to help you stabilize. She is just a lot worse.
So overall, this seems like an above average walker that is playable in a few tier 2 decks.
I will admit that it might be good in Esper. I just don't think that it is better than Ajani in 4-Color Control or WUR Control and UW Control either runs too much countermagic or too many creatures to effectively use Narset.
Thank you!
After Turn 4, seeing the top card in synergy with fetches helps you filter your deck. Many players do not see great value in telling time, but it's solid enough on it's own to merit further use in a UWx deck with Narset.
Costing 4 mana is one reason. Being a stronger Ashiok for more mana isn't necessarily a good thing. One of the main reasons to play Ashiok is that it costs 3 mana.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
7 loyalty is a lot, she very slappable on turn 4, she can survive an attack against pretty much everything(unless you watched the aggro player nuke you passively), provided you untapped with her you've got an excelent engine going on as she will stick around.
Boring...
Modern
WGBJunk:Feel the Rhinos WGB
RWUAmerican Taxes RWU
EDH
XKarn and the Living StaxX RETIRED
GWURoon of The Hidden RealmGWU
How is she "an excellent engine"? She draws you a card every other turn on average. That is pretty bad. The -2 is alright, but it forces you to play your cards at sorcery speed. I see why people like her, but I just don't think that she is good enough.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Maro said, "Let Narset be!"
And there was light.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Let's see, you are drawing extra cards for free, you can double some nasty cards like Supreme Veredict, preventing your opponent from playing creatures, so you can focus on opposing spells, Lightning Helix for extra life, Telling Time for even more cards.
I remember people saying that Tasigur was bad.
Boring...
Modern
WGBJunk:Feel the Rhinos WGB
RWUAmerican Taxes RWU
EDH
XKarn and the Living StaxX RETIRED
GWURoon of The Hidden RealmGWU
"Narset is one of the best planeswalkers ever printed. No hyperbole here - it's in the sweet spot at four mana, it's almost impossible to remove from the board the first turn it comes down (seven loyalty with the +1 ability), and most of all, it's going to be played in Legacy and Modern. There have been few planeswalkers that made the leap into all three formats. Here's the list, in the order of the amount of play they see in Legacy:
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor
- Liliana of the Veil
- Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Narset combos amazingly well with Sensei's Diving Top, because the worst case scenario is that you put SDT on top of your deck, and then use Narset to draw it. Narset also works amazingly with Brainstorm, both for the first and second ability."
-Ben Bleiweiss
Mostly talking about the Legacy applications of the card but still interesting points of discussion. Is it just hype train? I think only time and a little experimentation will tell.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I am unhappy.
[center][color=Blue]
Edric Spy and die
Azami the lady of the draw
Naya Zoo
Past decks
Orloro
sharuum the hegemond
Mono black control
splinter twin
Add in a bunch of burn spells and ur set to burn and swarm everything that comes in ur way.
Could splash white for boros charm too, for double striking 1/1's.
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
We claim all right for this creation of masterpieces. pyro tempo burn
SHHHshhhh they might try to ban dragon fodder - even though it has been in the modern pool for like 4 years.
[center][color=Blue]
Edric Spy and die
Azami the lady of the draw
Naya Zoo
Past decks
Orloro
sharuum the hegemond
Mono black control
splinter twin
I mostly disagree with this. On the one hand, it is being overrated by a lot of people, especially that hyperbolic SCG quote in the Financial Value article. But on the other hand, the reaction to this is too strong in the opposite direction. She should see about as much play as Sorin and JOA in Modern, and maybe even a little more.
All of this mis-evaluation comes from a few factors. Those who underrate her don't understand how valuable 7 loyalty is. But by a similar token, those who overrate her don't understand how the card draw ability really works, which is probably because they never played Domri and/or can't extrapolate Domri's value to Narset's. Mis-evaluation is also happening around her -2 ability. The underraters don't understand just how crazy something like 6 Spirit tokens is, or even just how swingy a Helix would be. But the overraters are trying to combo it with all sorts of bizarre cards, even if the ability doesn't need those cards to be good. Sure, it's smart to consider the possible pairings that people might miss, but you don't need to find the next DTT to make Narset playable.
So overall, this seems like an above average walker that is playable in a few tier 2 decks.
It gives many UWx decks a better game vs fair decks. It's probably (although I wont know for sure without testing) strong vs BGx decks like Abzan and Jund.
That alone makes it worth testing and considering.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
If she's playable (and I think she is!), she'll need to find her use being played on turn 6 in addition to other interaction spells.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Trying to decide if UWR or Esper is better to test, I'm liking esper more because of removal, tokens and walkers. I'm having a happy time thinking about rebounding thoughtseize or inquizition, esper charm, token cards, etc. If only utter end was 3cmc and sorcery...
It is really really good. Why?
Because at 4-7 starting loyalty for only 4 mana it will be a pain to get rid of!
She gets herself out of "bolt range" and the opponent will need a lot of creatures.
Also, she misses Abrupt Decay, that's nice.
She will stick around for a long time.
For 4 mana, you get to draw an extra card every turn (in the right build) and double your spells when you need to.
The ability to do that is insane, this is a long-run planeswalker.
This isn't a Liliana of the Veil that comes out strong like a Cruel Edict into a Raven's Crime.
This is a planeswalker that can take a beating and just won't die. 7 loyalty.. 7!!!! for 4 mana!!!
Think about just being able to +1 every turn and -2 when you've got the right spell?
Even if the opponent does decide they want to work to kill her, that's resources not going towards you, and honestly, the average amount of work needed to kill Narset is WAY above what is needed to kill the other "good" walkers. Yeah they "protect themselves" but not in the same way as 7 loyalty does.
She protects herself, but not you. I feel like it's hard to main deck her compared to Jace or Ajani Vengeant because they protect you in multiple ways. I mean in games that drag on and become value wars she's very strong (although not worlds beyond Jace/Ajani).
I guess my question about her is what match-up does adding 2 Narset to the deck over 2 Jace improve? It hurts the aggro match-up, so what does it offer that Jace does not?
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Again its not hard for a control deck that this would go in to make the game go long. UW based control only dies early to nut draws/when it stumbles hard. Its very unlikely its going to die before it can cast and use this -2. You can maindeck lifegain and trade one for on when you have cards like this.
7 loyalty is only worth something if the planewalker is good. If it isn't, I can just ignore it.
The thing is, the -2 ability isn't much better than the abilities of other planeswalkers, specifically Ajani Vengeant. If you play Ajani on a board with less than 2 threats, he can kill one without needing the extra card in your hand to rebound. Yes, he is left at a low loyalty, but the point is that he helped you stabilize so he shouldn't be immediately dead. Narset needs a useful card in your hand to help you stabilize. She is just a lot worse.
I will admit that it might be good in Esper. I just don't think that it is better than Ajani in 4-Color Control or WUR Control and UW Control either runs too much countermagic or too many creatures to effectively use Narset.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.