Also there is a thread discussing the midrange version of this color combination, under the name of Dega. (Like the "Volver" cycle, Degavolver for example.)
I love this color combination as I'm a huge Chicago Bulls fan, and I've been switching between Mardu midrange and June since the banning of BBE, and Jund is just better. Lightning helix and lingering souls are nice, but goyf, scooze, and abrupt decay are just better.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Also there is a thread discussing the midrange version of this color combination, under the name of Dega. (Like the "Volver" cycle, Degavolver for example.)
I'm sorry but they don't call them Dega because of the 'Volver' cycle. The 'volver' cycle was based around the same KTK clans color combinations, which already had a name back then:
RUG: Ceta
WBR: Dega
BGW: Necra
WUR: Raka
BUG: Ana
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In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
Also there is a thread discussing the midrange version of this color combination, under the name of Dega. (Like the "Volver" cycle, Degavolver for example.)
I'm sorry but they don't call them Dega because of the 'Volver' cycle. The 'volver' cycle was based around the same KTK clans color combinations, which already had a name back then:
RUG: Ceta
WBR: Dega
BGW: Necra
WUR: Raka
BUG: Ana
Actually, those cycles are exactly where the names came from.
There was a cycle of 3 cards for each of the 5 wedges during that time, a Volver, a Sanctuary and a Disciple (e.g. Degavolver, Dega Sanctuary and Dega Disciple), all of which were released in Apocalypse. That was the earliest that any of the wedges were given names, which is why people picked them up as names for the wedges until Khans renamed them all.
new players as they show up maybe twice with some budget deck they've spent the week designing and testing only to be beaten into oblivion by expensive decks they cannot hope to obtain and I think this is a tragedy.
True about blue and green, but black offers the best hand disruption in the game and some new versatility/card advantage with Kolaghan's Command. I've been working on a zombie tribal theme with 4 Gravecrawlers, 2 Tidehollow Scullers, 2 Spiteful Returns, 1 Tymaret, Murder King and 3 Blood Scriveners to back up early disrupters like Thoughtseizes, an Inquisition of Kozilek, 1 Bolt, 1 Helix and 3 Chained to Rocks. Red offers some nice card advantage with discarding effects like Tormenting Voice and Faithless Looting. Liliana of the Veil and Sorin, Solemn Visitor, Butcher of the Horde and Brutal HordeChief are game winners, especially with the most efficient token generators in the biz like Lingering Souls and Bitterblossom. I have even found that Necromancer's Stockpile and Smothering Abomination have merit in early trials.
What I think is the hidden gem here is the Blood Scrivener, which draws you 3 cards with hellbent all for the cost of one life.
Mardu's issue is that they don't have a crazy good two drop that works well in this format. If a mardu deck was to succeed it would have to be a token midrange deck that uses, Young pyro, lingering souls, and Pia and Kiran nalaar.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
The Mardu philosophy does not align with traditional styles of midrange and control very well. Rather like the Mardu say, "to rule is to bleed". Pox and Burn Decks are what Mardu excels at, and pox (in my opinion) is quite the controlling deck. IT does so by stripping away all of it's opponent's resources to gain incremental advantages, rather than countering their key spells till they have you beat on card advantage/quality.
Here's a video of one I saw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQVHQIAlXa4
It's just the weakest color combination in Modern. You can't use the BG/x midrange shell, the UR/x tempo shell, or the UW/x control shell. Mardu really needs a very good card with WBR mana cost to make it viable in this format.
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
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Until Mardu gets it's own 2 drop that can take over the game, I don' think that the color combo is going to show up much out side of a few burn builds.
Valid. I just don't like that you have to put a decent amount of mana to make him worth it. When I played the rat I tried to threat it like a five drop more often than I did a 2 drop.
Valid. I just don't like that you have to put a decent amount of mana to make him worth it. When I played the rat I tried to threat it like a five drop more often than I did a 2 drop.
Sometimes, sure. But other times you IoK / THoughtseize to clear the way for a turn 2 rat which could get really ugly.
Mardu also has Rabblemaster, and I realize its not a 2 drop like you specified but it does take over the game on its own. Rabble is used in Jund, I don't see why it any less valid here.
Mardu doesn't need manlands - just run ghost quarter in it's place.
Imho what mardu really lacks is deathrite shaman. and goyf.
Sultai: almost full access too the best threats available,despite the overkill in threats, misses all relevant removal other than Abrupt Decay, UG is a terrible color combination
Bant: extremely limited answers + medicore threats (can't abuse goyf well), 0 synergies, UG +W is really as bad as it can get in terms of available cardpool
Respectfully disagree; Sultai is fine, it just hasn't been built right yet. Maybe a tiny push, but it doesn't need much.
I have an idea for Bant that I'm putting together that might shake things up, but I need to test it out. I don't think the cardpool is lacking, I think it's more with player approach.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
Sultai: almost full access too the best threats available,despite the overkill in threats, misses all relevant removal other than Abrupt Decay, UG is a terrible color combination
Bant: extremely limited answers + medicore threats (can't abuse goyf well), 0 synergies, UG +W is really as bad as it can get in terms of available cardpool
Respectfully disagree; Sultai is fine, it just hasn't been built right yet. Maybe a tiny push, but it doesn't need much.
I have an idea for Bant that I'm putting together that might shake things up, but I need to test it out. I don't think the cardpool is lacking, I think it's more with player approach.
i am not saying it's worthless or anything like this, the deck has acces to some really powerful cards, they just all happen to be threats
what i see is 2 blind spots and they are both about it's removal package:
a)it has no removal like path or terminate do deal with 'big' threats like manlands, tasigur,angler, rhino etc
b)it has not removal at 1 cmc to get rid of things like Goblin Guide without loosing life, having no removal at 1 cmc makes it harder to play 2 spells per turn which can be of great benefit against decks like infect and affinity
can it compete? sure, it's just hard to justify running Sultai over Jund and Grixis if you want to maximise your chances of cashing out at a big event, that could change with a couple of good prints though
as for Bant it's not really fast and only has access to path as removal, so that leaves us only with CoCo as an option? i can't think of something else atm
I think it all boils down to what is "Good enough" removal; as long as it prevents the creature from attacking, does it need to do anything else?
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
The problem with Mardu is the lack of a ''star card'' in the removal and mainly the creature department for midrange standards. Look at Utter End and Abrupt Decay! Come one, at least make it a 3cmc! Not to mention RW, that has no card like them or BR that besides killing creatures and artifacts (only Red) don't interact that well with other permanents.
As it was said, there is not a single value 2 or 3 drop that would cause a real headache for the opponent. But besides that, Mardu has an inherit nature of 1 for 1 and symmetrical effects. It is really difficult to gain card advantage and when it does you usually have paid quite the price in life total.
Fortunately, life can be easily regained and those colors have the best sideboard options.
What it needs in my opinion:
1) A utility removal in WB or RW, 2cmc or at most 3cmc. What Utter End should have been!
2)An oversized for its cost or too valuable to ignore 2 or 3cmc gold creature.
3)Removal and disruption that exist to 2 for 1 them before it is too late. One card like this should be enough.
4)The RW manland to be ANY good! Jesus Christ why the heck are those other 2 manlands sooo bad?
No biggie, but I have looked at the rules on this in the gatherer and it seems to state most clearly that a Blood Scrivener with hellbent draws 3 cards for one life. I don't completely embrace the logic, but gladly accept the extra card.
No biggie, but I have looked at the rules on this in the gatherer and it seems to state most clearly that a Blood Scrivener with hellbent draws 3 cards for one life. I don't completely embrace the logic, but gladly accept the extra card.
Any time you are instructed to draw more than one card, you draw them one at a time. For example, if you control Blood Scrivener and have no cards in hand and you're instructed to “draw two cards,” your first card draw is replaced by drawing two cards and losing 1 life, then you'll draw the second card from the original instruction. In total, you'll draw three cards and lose 1 life.
It's if you draw 2 or more cards.
On the subject of Bant's removal, testing will tell but I think as long as you can prevent the opponent's creature's from killing you you don't really have to worry about them being on the board or not.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
Well until white gets a 1W creature that reads when creature enters the battlefield, you may exile creature with power 4 or greater, mardu and BW won't become a deck. But white never gets love from wizzards. Appart from sideboard cards.
I would play something like this.
I have been casting Thoughtseize since Lorwyn. It is the best reason to be black. 6 discard allows you to have reasonable game against non creature combos. Liliana and K Command add to that. Twin will have a difficult time against this. Discard plus Path, Terminate, and Liliana, backed up by incremental card advantage will be difficult for them. The threats are not as big as the BG decks, but the deck has Lingering Souls which is great in the matchup. The deck has a lot more card advantage than BG decks and good removal. Should be a close match. For affinity, Lingering Souls does a lot of work. Back that up with the best removal set in the format, and I think affinity is a good matchup. Creature decks in general are going to get picked apart by all the removal here. You will notice it has 6 ways to answer a T1 Goblin Guide or Nacatl on Turn 1. Tron will not be very easy. The deck is slower than the BG ones. Fulminator and Discard will do some work, but it will still be a bad matchup. Same for Amulet, but not as bad as Tron. Infect is easy with this removal set and Lingering Souls. Bitterblossom shuts them down fast. Red won't be easy. Luckily killing their creatures will be no problem, but Confidant, Thoughtseize, and Blossom are not that good here. TS is reasonable because it can save you 1 or 2 life, but you probably want to board these all out. Timeley Reinforcements is amazing against them though. Just use Bob to block game 1.
I have not tested this list. But I have played a lot of Jund and Abzan over the last 10 years. The key here is going to be grinding your opponents out, nickel and diming them for a few damage here and there. Liliana, Blossom, Bob, and Abbot provide a lot of card advantage. Lingering souls reduces the effectiveness of spot removal. The disruption provided by the best removal and discard will wear out your opponent. There won't be a lot of free wins, most games will end up in topdeck wars. This is what Jund and Abzan do, they force the game into topdeck mode. Pack Rat, Bob, Abbot, Blossom, Souls, and Liliana are great in a topdeck war. Removal is never bad there either, especially such good removal. K Command is one of the best topdecks. Butcher is great for smashing.
This is an expensive list, so it probably isn't very practical. I would rather play Jund or Abzan over this. Most people with Goyfs would. If you don't have Goyf, then this is a good way to play midrange in the format. I don't think too many people have Bob, Blossom, and Lili but no Goyf though. Anyways, I would at least start here if I was looking to play Mardu in modern and didn't want to just burn people.
Basically, run with an extremely low curve and an extreme amount of discard--instead of just disrupting your opponent a bit with discard, you want to curve discard into discard into discard, then deal with whatever resolved threat they had after the fact. This curve has an average cmc of about 1.3, so dark confidant is pretty much no downside, especially when you consider finks flips into gaining the life back most of the time anyway. disrupt any opening synergy they might have, remove random topdeck threats they could have, and then instead of trying to grind 2 for 1's, go for straight value with bitterblossom, bob, souls, or a planeswalker/pack rat to run away with the game.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I love the way MoxZZZ incorporates Butcher of the Horde maindeck. I've had one in a similar deck and, if I clear a path early game, it makes an impact.
I still tend to favor amelek0's strategy with gutting their hand with discard effects and Tidehollow Scullers. I also use Sorin, Solemn Visitor to move things my way! Thanks guys!
Have either of you given thought to either Surgical Extraction or Extirpate in the sideboard to slow dredge, neuter goyfs or get rid of multiple copies of annoying combo cards?
I see...I think. So If I play a Tormenting Voice and discard to achieve hellbent, then I draw 3 cards and lose 1 life? Same for Howling Mine?
That is correct.
Additionally, more than 1 Blood Scriveners "stack" in the same way. With no cards in hand, and 1 Blood Scrivener, you would draw 2, lose 1 life. With 2 on the battlefield, you draw 3, lose 2 life. With 3, you draw 4, lose 3 life and so on.
This can be found in deck creation: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/528062-dega-bwr-midrange
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
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JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I'm sorry but they don't call them Dega because of the 'Volver' cycle. The 'volver' cycle was based around the same KTK clans color combinations, which already had a name back then:
RUG: Ceta
WBR: Dega
BGW: Necra
WUR: Raka
BUG: Ana
Actually, those cycles are exactly where the names came from.
There was a cycle of 3 cards for each of the 5 wedges during that time, a Volver, a Sanctuary and a Disciple (e.g. Degavolver, Dega Sanctuary and Dega Disciple), all of which were released in Apocalypse. That was the earliest that any of the wedges were given names, which is why people picked them up as names for the wedges until Khans renamed them all.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
:symu::symw: Control
:symr::symb: Aggro
Life Gain
What I think is the hidden gem here is the Blood Scrivener, which draws you 3 cards with hellbent all for the cost of one life.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Here's a video of one I saw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQVHQIAlXa4
RGW Naya Company
RWB Mardu Control
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Mardu also has Rabblemaster, and I realize its not a 2 drop like you specified but it does take over the game on its own. Rabble is used in Jund, I don't see why it any less valid here.
Mardu doesn't need manlands - just run ghost quarter in it's place.
Imho what mardu really lacks is deathrite shaman. and goyf.
Respectfully disagree; Sultai is fine, it just hasn't been built right yet. Maybe a tiny push, but it doesn't need much.
I have an idea for Bant that I'm putting together that might shake things up, but I need to test it out. I don't think the cardpool is lacking, I think it's more with player approach.
I think it all boils down to what is "Good enough" removal; as long as it prevents the creature from attacking, does it need to do anything else?
As it was said, there is not a single value 2 or 3 drop that would cause a real headache for the opponent. But besides that, Mardu has an inherit nature of 1 for 1 and symmetrical effects. It is really difficult to gain card advantage and when it does you usually have paid quite the price in life total.
Fortunately, life can be easily regained and those colors have the best sideboard options.
What it needs in my opinion:
1) A utility removal in WB or RW, 2cmc or at most 3cmc. What Utter End should have been!
2)An oversized for its cost or too valuable to ignore 2 or 3cmc gold creature.
3)Removal and disruption that exist to 2 for 1 them before it is too late. One card like this should be enough.
4)The RW manland to be ANY good! Jesus Christ why the heck are those other 2 manlands sooo bad?
It's if you draw 2 or more cards.
On the subject of Bant's removal, testing will tell but I think as long as you can prevent the opponent's creature's from killing you you don't really have to worry about them being on the board or not.
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Path to Exile
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Commmand
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
1 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Confidant
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Pack Rat
2 Butcher of the Horde
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Shambling Vents
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Outpost Siege
1 Celestial Purge
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Shatterstorm
I would play something like this.
I have been casting Thoughtseize since Lorwyn. It is the best reason to be black. 6 discard allows you to have reasonable game against non creature combos. Liliana and K Command add to that. Twin will have a difficult time against this. Discard plus Path, Terminate, and Liliana, backed up by incremental card advantage will be difficult for them. The threats are not as big as the BG decks, but the deck has Lingering Souls which is great in the matchup. The deck has a lot more card advantage than BG decks and good removal. Should be a close match. For affinity, Lingering Souls does a lot of work. Back that up with the best removal set in the format, and I think affinity is a good matchup. Creature decks in general are going to get picked apart by all the removal here. You will notice it has 6 ways to answer a T1 Goblin Guide or Nacatl on Turn 1. Tron will not be very easy. The deck is slower than the BG ones. Fulminator and Discard will do some work, but it will still be a bad matchup. Same for Amulet, but not as bad as Tron. Infect is easy with this removal set and Lingering Souls. Bitterblossom shuts them down fast. Red won't be easy. Luckily killing their creatures will be no problem, but Confidant, Thoughtseize, and Blossom are not that good here. TS is reasonable because it can save you 1 or 2 life, but you probably want to board these all out. Timeley Reinforcements is amazing against them though. Just use Bob to block game 1.
I have not tested this list. But I have played a lot of Jund and Abzan over the last 10 years. The key here is going to be grinding your opponents out, nickel and diming them for a few damage here and there. Liliana, Blossom, Bob, and Abbot provide a lot of card advantage. Lingering souls reduces the effectiveness of spot removal. The disruption provided by the best removal and discard will wear out your opponent. There won't be a lot of free wins, most games will end up in topdeck wars. This is what Jund and Abzan do, they force the game into topdeck mode. Pack Rat, Bob, Abbot, Blossom, Souls, and Liliana are great in a topdeck war. Removal is never bad there either, especially such good removal. K Command is one of the best topdecks. Butcher is great for smashing.
This is an expensive list, so it probably isn't very practical. I would rather play Jund or Abzan over this. Most people with Goyfs would. If you don't have Goyf, then this is a good way to play midrange in the format. I don't think too many people have Bob, Blossom, and Lili but no Goyf though. Anyways, I would at least start here if I was looking to play Mardu in modern and didn't want to just burn people.
3 thoughtseize
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 lightning bolt
3 path to exile
3 terminate
4 tidehollow sculler
4 dark confidant
2 pack rat
2 bitterblossom
2 kolaghan's command
4 lingering souls
3 kitchen finks
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Basically, run with an extremely low curve and an extreme amount of discard--instead of just disrupting your opponent a bit with discard, you want to curve discard into discard into discard, then deal with whatever resolved threat they had after the fact. This curve has an average cmc of about 1.3, so dark confidant is pretty much no downside, especially when you consider finks flips into gaining the life back most of the time anyway. disrupt any opening synergy they might have, remove random topdeck threats they could have, and then instead of trying to grind 2 for 1's, go for straight value with bitterblossom, bob, souls, or a planeswalker/pack rat to run away with the game.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I still tend to favor amelek0's strategy with gutting their hand with discard effects and Tidehollow Scullers. I also use Sorin, Solemn Visitor to move things my way! Thanks guys!
Have either of you given thought to either Surgical Extraction or Extirpate in the sideboard to slow dredge, neuter goyfs or get rid of multiple copies of annoying combo cards?
What's your take on Chained to the Rocks?
Additionally, more than 1 Blood Scriveners "stack" in the same way. With no cards in hand, and 1 Blood Scrivener, you would draw 2, lose 1 life. With 2 on the battlefield, you draw 3, lose 2 life. With 3, you draw 4, lose 3 life and so on.