The power level in modern is fine; My issue with it, and that shared by (I believe) most people, is that the power is skewed in certain colors--Black has the best interaction, white the best sideboard hosers, red has basically nothing but burn and twin/kikki jiki, blue is restricted to tempo-based countermagic and bad cantrips. I think the format would be "better" if we allowed all colors to rise to the power level of the black/green shell. This is particularly exacerbated when the best fair decks in the format essentially rely on a card that is $800 a playset. THAT is the heart of the issue with the pod banning--some people don't like to play linear or combo strategies, and because of the pod banning, the only deck left outside of those classifications basically requires goyfs.
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I think the 'average' power level of cards in Modern should be higher, particularly in certain weaker archetypes, but also that some archetypes and cards currently in Standard are either potentially ban-worth overpowered now or will be once the format fills out more and the decks they are in are no longer reliant on a bunch of junk and a few overpowered cards balanced by the fact that the rest of the deck is junk.
I think in the process, we'll get closer to Legacy overall, but the best cards in the format will get farther and farther away from legacy.
As for expense, I'm glad Modern has no cards on the restricted list, because I want them to reprint stuff sufficiently that for every card, there is a tournament legal version available on the secondary market (not neccesarily the most popular/coolest version, some with special art or that are promos or original printings or foils might be more expensive) that is the following prices or below:
Mythic Rare - $40
Rare - $20
Rare mana-fixing land (ie. shocks, fetches, fastlands, filterlands, painlands, mana confluence, city of brass, gemstone mine, etc. but not neccesarily special stuff like utility lands or the dual-land manlands and cavern of souls that do stuff besides just mana fixing) - $10
Uncommon - $4
Common - $1
If Modern cards go above those kind of prices, they are probably in need of a reprint, so long as the price per pack and number of cards of each type in the packs remains as it is now, and in most cases, I'd prefer cards to be noticeably cheaper than these prices, especially Modern staples used in multiple archetypes that are often played as a 4 of in the decks they are found in, the more expensive prices should be relegated to the upper most popular and powerful cards across multiple formats that are usually are played in less than a playset.
This isn't just for my own sake, I also want this to be done to discourage theft of decks and cards, as I often hear about people's decks and cards being stolen at events, including people I know having their cards stolen, and I want people to be able to take cheaper versions of cards to tournaments and not lose out as much and wind up quitting magic or something because they can't afford to replace their deck when stuff is stolen.
I'm also basing these prices somewhat on Standard secondary market prices, what appears to be the upper edges of value for stuff just recently put into print. Any time something goes above the prices I listed, demand is likely high enough that even with a reprint, it will remain relatively high or climb back up after a while, because the number of players will steadily grow over time.
I want new players to be able to have a chance to get into Modern, no matter how many years down the line it is.
Assume something like 1/3rd or less of the paper prices I listed for MTGO, since stuff tends to be noticeably cheaper there.
As long as Legacy is still around and still being supported, Moderns power level should fall squarely between Legacy and Standard. I personally do not want Legacy lite. I have the cards to play Legacy and I would rather play Modern over Legacy every day of the week. I cant say I would feel the same if the power level was pushed toward Legacy. I probably wouldnt play either format.
Now if in the future Wotc decides to remove Legacy, I would understand a push in power to Modern to appease the Legacy crowd. But I would hope Wotc would create something new for those that got pushed out/lost interest in a more powerful Modern.
I want Modern to get more powerful, but not to the point of being Legacy-lite. I want it to be around the power-level of Invasion-forward Overextended, but with a relatively strict banlist.
Where it sits. I just dont want every single tournament to be 'omg dont let my deck win or represent too often in the top 16!'
The ban whats good attitude really sucks.
This! My friend was thinking about building Bloom Titan for GP Charlotte, but doesn't feel safe doing so, which is not something that should be happening in modern. I know this sentiment is shared by many Modern players and that is horrendous.
Modern needs to be stronger.
It will inevitably become so just by printing new cards continually.
Banning cards from every new expansion is just a bad plan.
I'll play the strongest format non reserve list cards can make.
The power level in modern is fine; My issue with it, and that shared by (I believe) most people, is that the power is skewed in certain colors--Black has the best interaction, white the best sideboard hosers, red has basically nothing but burn and twin/kikki jiki, blue is restricted to tempo-based countermagic and bad cantrips. I think the format would be "better" if we allowed all colors to rise to the power level of the black/green shell. This is particularly exacerbated when the best fair decks in the format essentially rely on a card that is $800 a playset. THAT is the heart of the issue with the pod banning--some people don't like to play linear or combo strategies, and because of the pod banning, the only deck left outside of those classifications basically requires goyfs.
This is where I'm at, and I feel that standard also suffers from the same problems. There's just no reason not to run BGx Goodstuff.dec in either format unless you're running some kind of combo deck.
I don't want another color combination to take that place, but to have other colors at least be remotely competitive.
The power level in modern is fine; My issue with it, and that shared by (I believe) most people, is that the power is skewed in certain colors--Black has the best interaction, white the best sideboard hosers, red has basically nothing but burn and twin/kikki jiki, blue is restricted to tempo-based countermagic and bad cantrips. I think the format would be "better" if we allowed all colors to rise to the power level of the black/green shell. This is particularly exacerbated when the best fair decks in the format essentially rely on a card that is $800 a playset. THAT is the heart of the issue with the pod banning--some people don't like to play linear or combo strategies, and because of the pod banning, the only deck left outside of those classifications basically requires goyfs.
This is where I'm at, and I feel that standard also suffers from the same problems. There's just no reason not to run BGx Goodstuff.dec in either format unless you're running some kind of combo deck.
I don't want another color combination to take that place, but to have other colors at least be remotely competitive.
You are correct in Modern but not in Standard. In Standard RW Aggro, Green Devotion, UB Control, Jeskai Tempo, UW Heroic, and Jeskai Tokens are all viable.
I definitely do not want the power level of Modern to go towards Legacy. Each format has to have a reason to exist, and "budget Legacy" isn't a good enough reason for me.
I hope it doesn't overlap with the other poll too much.
Also, I want to say you have an excellent screen name. "Jez, can you tell me, as a mate, someone who knows me really well, is the bottom half of me on fire?"
Where it sits. I just dont want every single tournament to be 'omg dont let my deck win or represent too often in the top 16!'
The ban whats good attitude really sucks.
This! My friend was thinking about building Bloom Titan for GP Charlotte, but doesn't feel safe doing so, which is not something that should be happening in modern. I know this sentiment is shared by many Modern players and that is horrendous.
How is this really different from shying away from building a deck because the meta may shift and your deck will be obsolete? I honestly think it's more of an issue with the cost of modern than with the banning criteria. I think that there's too many just all-in linear strategies. That's really what's wrong with modern. When you ban the strongest deck, the (still super strong decks) that were held back by it take its place. I don't disagree with you, people should be able to play the fun decks they imagine, but I think that that issue would be lessened if modern weren't so god damned expensive.
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Where it sits. I just dont want every single tournament to be 'omg dont let my deck win or represent too often in the top 16!'
The ban whats good attitude really sucks.
This! My friend was thinking about building Bloom Titan for GP Charlotte, but doesn't feel safe doing so, which is not something that should be happening in modern. I know this sentiment is shared by many Modern players and that is horrendous.
How is this really different from shying away from building a deck because the meta may shift and your deck will be obsolete? I honestly think it's more of an issue with the cost of modern than with the banning criteria. I think that there's too many just all-in linear strategies. That's really what's wrong with modern. When you ban the strongest deck, the (still super strong decks) that were held back by it take its place. I don't disagree with you, people should be able to play the fun decks they imagine, but I think that that issue would be lessened if modern weren't so god damned expensive.
You are right that the price is a huge barrier, but there is a big difference between your deck becoming tier 2 and your deck being illegal, especially for people that mostly just play at their LGS (a majority of the players).
The power level in modern is fine; My issue with it, and that shared by (I believe) most people, is that the power is skewed in certain colors--Black has the best interaction, white the best sideboard hosers, red has basically nothing but burn and twin/kikki jiki, blue is restricted to tempo-based countermagic and bad cantrips. I think the format would be "better" if we allowed all colors to rise to the power level of the black/green shell. This is particularly exacerbated when the best fair decks in the format essentially rely on a card that is $800 a playset. THAT is the heart of the issue with the pod banning--some people don't like to play linear or combo strategies, and because of the pod banning, the only deck left outside of those classifications basically requires goyfs.
This is where I'm at, and I feel that standard also suffers from the same problems. There's just no reason not to run BGx Goodstuff.dec in either format unless you're running some kind of combo deck.
I don't want another color combination to take that place, but to have other colors at least be remotely competitive.
You are correct in Modern but not in Standard. In Standard RW Aggro, Green Devotion, UB Control, Jeskai Tempo, UW Heroic, and Jeskai Tokens are all viable.
What I like from this is that we, who probably share fairly different views on what modern *should* be, all agree on what the *problem* is at the moment--an imbalance between the power level of the colors. It's one of the aspects I like a ton about legacy, and it's something modern WILL eventually grow to have if the format survives--the "I don't think it should all be about combo--well I think it should be about color diversity--well I think it should be about strategic diversity" type arguments often exist entirely independently from discussions of the power level of the cards or the format itself--people generally agree that force of will is a good thing in legacy, for example, even if they hate playing with or against it. Modern needs to go through a crucible of some kind or form (maybe the pod banning is the impetus) to allow modern players to realize that formats need safety valves, and the best way to do that is to have a balance between the relative power level of cards in the format. In legacy, there are three sorts of "metagame police" to keep broken-ness in check. The first is the permission heavy tempo decks. They keep fast combo in check. The second are attrition decks--the grindy decks like shardless BUG and Jund that go the opposite end of the spectrum. The third kind is the "sideboard police"--dredge. Whenever people decide to spread themselves too thin to try and fight every archetype equally, graveyard hate suffers, and dredge comes in and wins an event in commanding fashion. The problem is that Modern only has ONE safety valve--BGx. Everything in modern can metagame all they want against BGx, but when it comes down to it BGx is still a 50/50 deck against anything they want to be 50/50 against. Jack of all trades, master of none. The solution they tried for beating the linear decks was strong targeted hate, but strong hate (like stony silence, or creeping corrosion, or rule of law) is only reasonable if you can already have a decent chance of dragging the game out to get there. So, whatever deck is most reliably able to survive or perform without its hate is still going to rise to the top. Because they tried to rely on "safety valve" cards instead of archetypes, we've arrived at the situation where there are too many fires to put out (different linear decks), not enough fire hoses to go around (sideboard slots), and so whatever building is the most solid is going to survive (the ROCK... ok, BGx) more often. The blue countermagic shells aren't strong enough on their own to reliably combat the linear decks, because they've had their library manipulation stripped, and the powerful taxing and delay abilities that make legacy mono white control (death and taxes) viable aren't strong enough to compete with the raw creatures of the BGx shell while simultaneously being disruptive enough to stop the linear decks, and so all we're left with is discard and abrupt decay/maelstrom pulse.
Moral of the story: Powerful threats require powerful answers because threats are inherently better than answers since they win the game if unanswered, while an answer just sits in your hand wasting potential turns of mana expenditure. Modern-tier threats only have modern-tier answers in the BGx shell, and so it devolves into BGx vs linear strategies, and to those who say merfolk tribal or burn represent fast agro, no, they're just linear strategies that attack on a different axis (redundancy) than the other linear decks. Even RG tron is to some extent a highly linear strategy, revolved around resolving and protecting a small class of powerful threats.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I play Legacy every week with my own "competitive" build of Junk Stoneblade and/against lots of tier one decks.
I like Modern more. I like the power level of modern where it is. Price doesn't affect it for me, I like Modern just the way it is. It's diverse, their are different strategies to play, and no color is dominate.
However, other people want more diversity or different decks in modern. Thus, I dream of a world where modern is no more powerful than it is now, but other strategies that are tier 3 or 2.5 go up 1 tier so that more decks can be played and be competitive.
The power level in modern is fine; My issue with it, and that shared by (I believe) most people, is that the power is skewed in certain colors--Black has the best interaction, white the best sideboard hosers, red has basically nothing but burn and twin/kikki jiki, blue is restricted to tempo-based countermagic and bad cantrips. I think the format would be "better" if we allowed all colors to rise to the power level of the black/green shell. This is particularly exacerbated when the best fair decks in the format essentially rely on a card that is $800 a playset. THAT is the heart of the issue with the pod banning--some people don't like to play linear or combo strategies, and because of the pod banning, the only deck left outside of those classifications basically requires goyfs.
This is where I'm at, and I feel that standard also suffers from the same problems. There's just no reason not to run BGx Goodstuff.dec in either format unless you're running some kind of combo deck.
I don't want another color combination to take that place, but to have other colors at least be remotely competitive.
You are correct in Modern but not in Standard. In Standard RW Aggro, Green Devotion, UB Control, Jeskai Tempo, UW Heroic, and Jeskai Tokens are all viable.
A lot of pros think that UB control isn't a viable deck.
The article isn't about UB control, but in it Costa does take a shot at how UB control isn't very good when comparing it to R/W.
I simply disagree with you when you say all those other decks are viable. They can win occasionally, but that doesn't make them viable. In standard, there are 2 must-answer cards and those Siege Rhino and Goblin Rabblemaster. Abzan has Rhino, and R/W has Rabblemaster. The rest of the decks in standard don't have anything near that power level.
The power level in modern is fine; My issue with it, and that shared by (I believe) most people, is that the power is skewed in certain colors--Black has the best interaction, white the best sideboard hosers, red has basically nothing but burn and twin/kikki jiki, blue is restricted to tempo-based countermagic and bad cantrips. I think the format would be "better" if we allowed all colors to rise to the power level of the black/green shell. This is particularly exacerbated when the best fair decks in the format essentially rely on a card that is $800 a playset. THAT is the heart of the issue with the pod banning--some people don't like to play linear or combo strategies, and because of the pod banning, the only deck left outside of those classifications basically requires goyfs.
This is where I'm at, and I feel that standard also suffers from the same problems. There's just no reason not to run BGx Goodstuff.dec in either format unless you're running some kind of combo deck.
I don't want another color combination to take that place, but to have other colors at least be remotely competitive.
You are correct in Modern but not in Standard. In Standard RW Aggro, Green Devotion, UB Control, Jeskai Tempo, UW Heroic, and Jeskai Tokens are all viable.
A lot of pros think that UB control isn't a viable deck.
The article isn't about UB control, but in it Costa does take a shot at how UB control isn't very good when comparing it to R/W.
UB Control was 5.6% of the meta 5 days ago and won a Grand Prix two weekends ago, and that is if you group Sultai Control separately (which just won the last GP and was 4.2% of the meta 5 days ago). While Matt is a good player, the results speak differently.
I simply disagree with you when you say all those other decks are viable. They can win occasionally, but that doesn't make them viable. In standard, there are 2 must-answer cards and those Siege Rhino and Goblin Rabblemaster. Abzan has Rhino, and R/W has Rabblemaster. The rest of the decks in standard don't have anything near that power level.
Ugin is way above that power-level when you cast him, which UBx Control can consistently do. Same goes for Green Devotion when it is generating a ton of mana. Both Jeskai decks play Rabblemaster. UW Heroic might have been a bit of a stretch, but it is still a contender.
The omnipresent valnarch strikes again, slaying those who would make bald faced assertions with his trusty blade--ACTUAL FACTS!
Pokes aside, I would like to point out that if we look at recent day 2 metagame %'s in modern, not very many archetypes were represented at the 5% mark, certainly not when you lump things in terms of fair/reactive vs unfair/linear decks. Standard and legacy both have much better diversity at the moment than modern when viewed in that light.
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Primary Decks:
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The omnipresent valnarch strikes again, slaying those who would make bald faced assertions with his trusty blade--ACTUAL FACTS!
I know all, see all, and post EVERYWHERE!
Pokes aside, I would like to point out that if we look at recent day 2 metagame %'s in modern, not very many archetypes were represented at the 5% mark, certainly not when you lump things in terms of fair/reactive vs unfair/linear decks. Standard and legacy both have much better diversity at the moment than modern when viewed in that light.
Agreed. Junk was the only fair deck with more than 5% of the meta at GP Vancouver. That is a problem.
As long as Legacy is still around and still being supported, Moderns power level should fall squarely between Legacy and Standard.
The problem is that Legacy isn't being supported. Three tournaments a year, in three different countries, on three different continents, isn't support for a format.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
The power level in modern is fine; My issue with it, and that shared by (I believe) most people, is that the power is skewed in certain colors--Black has the best interaction, white the best sideboard hosers, red has basically nothing but burn and twin/kikki jiki, blue is restricted to tempo-based countermagic and bad cantrips. I think the format would be "better" if we allowed all colors to rise to the power level of the black/green shell.
This is exactly my problem with the format and I say this as someone who's sleeved up 90% of the competitive decks in the format in the last 2 years and generally still enjoy the format.
We need better cards in the format, plain and simple. I feel like aside from helping combo, the only good blue cards in the format are , Clique, SCM and cryptic. Red sucks outside of burn. Black is great. Green is great. White is decent on its sideboard strength alone.
The power level in modern is fine; My issue with it, and that shared by (I believe) most people, is that the power is skewed in certain colors--Black has the best interaction, white the best sideboard hosers, red has basically nothing but burn and twin/kikki jiki, blue is restricted to tempo-based countermagic and bad cantrips. I think the format would be "better" if we allowed all colors to rise to the power level of the black/green shell. This is particularly exacerbated when the best fair decks in the format essentially rely on a card that is $800 a playset. THAT is the heart of the issue with the pod banning--some people don't like to play linear or combo strategies, and because of the pod banning, the only deck left outside of those classifications basically requires goyfs.
This is where I'm at, and I feel that standard also suffers from the same problems. There's just no reason not to run BGx Goodstuff.dec in either format unless you're running some kind of combo deck.
I don't want another color combination to take that place, but to have other colors at least be remotely competitive.
You are correct in Modern but not in Standard. In Standard RW Aggro, Green Devotion, UB Control, Jeskai Tempo, UW Heroic, and Jeskai Tokens are all viable.
A lot of pros think that UB control isn't a viable deck.
The article isn't about UB control, but in it Costa does take a shot at how UB control isn't very good when comparing it to R/W.
UB Control was 5.6% of the meta 5 days ago and won a Grand Prix two weekends ago, and that is if you group Sultai Control separately (which just won the last GP and was 4.2% of the meta 5 days ago). While Matt is a good player, the results speak differently.
Ivan Floch seems thinks that UB control is pretty awful and he played the deck on the pro tour. If you're going to go by "it just won a GP" logic, any deck can theoretically metagame properly to win an event. The problem however, is that UB control is only 5.6% of the meta. If its as viable as you're suggesting, it would clearly have a much larger share of the pie. It doesn't. Therefore I assert its not really a good deck.
Ugin is way above that power-level when you cast him, which UBx Control can consistently do. Same goes for Green Devotion when it is generating a ton of mana. Both Jeskai decks play Rabblemaster. UW Heroic might have been a bit of a stretch, but it is still a contender.
Ugin can definitely be at that kind of power level, but that requires you to actually have 8 mana to cast the damn thing. This standard is getting faster and more aggressive every day, and you just can't sit around durdling hoping to cast Ugin when you're getting your face bashed in. If you're playing control and you've cast Ugin, you were probably going to win the game regardless if you played Ugin or something else in its place, just because the game dragged out that long. "There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers" describes what I mean very well. The problem with Ugin is that if you are able to cast him, anything else in his place would also do. So, I'm not convinced Ugin is anywhere near Rabblemaster or Rhino's level due to its prohibitive mana cost.
The problem with the Jeskai decks is that they're basically watered down R/W decks except that they're running blue. And that's kind of a problem. Blue is an inherently slow color and even splashing it slows you down a lot. Blue is also objectively the worst color in magic right now, offering little justification outside of some multicolored cards and some card draw. I've always felt that decks like Jeskai, Temur and Sultai would be so much more efficient as just R/W, G/R and B/G decks because they'd be cutting out the fat. There's really no competitive reason to use blue right now, it only makes your deck worse. As those decks stand, they're just flatout worse than the R/Ws and the Abzans of the world. I mean, outside of Dig Through Time, what does it offer you? Counterspells? All of its counterspells are just bad and not really worth using. Dig Through Time is literally the only good card blue has (disregarding mutli-colored cards like Jeskai Ascen, Mantis Rider, etc.) and even that just isn't worth splashing blue for.
Devotion is an interesting animal, but I've always found it odd that you would ramp up for an 8 mana planeswalker only to exile all your own rampers, then have Ugin just eat a Downfall and then put you in a really bad position. You'd be better off ramping for Hornet Queen and generating actual value, while keeping your rampers intact should you need them later on in the game.
So yeah, I go back to my previous point. If you're playing competitively, you play abzan or r/w or die.
This is where I'm at, and I feel that standard also suffers from the same problems. There's just no reason not to run BGx Goodstuff.dec in either format unless you're running some kind of combo deck.
I don't want another color combination to take that place, but to have other colors at least be remotely competitive.
You are correct in Modern but not in Standard. In Standard RW Aggro, Green Devotion, UB Control, Jeskai Tempo, UW Heroic, and Jeskai Tokens are all viable.
A lot of pros think that UB control isn't a viable deck.
The article isn't about UB control, but in it Costa does take a shot at how UB control isn't very good when comparing it to R/W.
UB Control was 5.6% of the meta 5 days ago and won a Grand Prix two weekends ago, and that is if you group Sultai Control separately (which just won the last GP and was 4.2% of the meta 5 days ago). While Matt is a good player, the results speak differently.
Ivan Floch seems thinks that UB control is pretty awful and he played the deck on the pro tour. If you're going to go by "it just won a GP" logic, any deck can theoretically metagame properly to win an event. The problem however, is that UB control is only 5.6% of the meta. If its as viable as you're suggesting, it would clearly have a much larger share of the pie. It doesn't. Therefore I assert its not really a good deck.
If you group UBx Control decks together like you did for Abzan decks, it is 9.8% of the meta and just won 2 Grand Prix. That is certainly what I would consider viable.
Ugin is way above that power-level when you cast him, which UBx Control can consistently do. Same goes for Green Devotion when it is generating a ton of mana. Both Jeskai decks play Rabblemaster. UW Heroic might have been a bit of a stretch, but it is still a contender.
Ugin can definitely be at that kind of power level, but that requires you to actually have 8 mana to cast the damn thing. This standard is getting faster and more aggressive every day, and you just can't sit around durdling hoping to cast Ugin when you're getting your face bashed in. If you're playing control and you've cast Ugin, you were probably going to win the game regardless if you played Ugin or something else in its place, just because the game dragged out that long. "There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers" describes what I mean very well. The problem with Ugin is that if you are able to cast him, anything else in his place would also do. So, I'm not convinced Ugin is anywhere near Rabblemaster or Rhino's level due to its prohibitive mana cost.
How is Standard getting faster every day? We are seeing UBx Control decks, Devotion decks, and Abzan Control decks running maindeck board-sweepers being very strong. If anything the format has actually gotten slower. UB Control is a deck designed to go late, and if it does and lands Ugin it basically wins.
The problem with the Jeskai decks is that they're basically watered down R/W decks except that they're running blue. And that's kind of a problem. Blue is an inherently slow color and even splashing it slows you down a lot. Blue is also objectively the worst color in magic right now, offering little justification outside of some multicolored cards and some card draw. I've always felt that decks like Jeskai, Temur and Sultai would be so much more efficient as just R/W, G/R and B/G decks because they'd be cutting out the fat. There's really no competitive reason to use blue right now, it only makes your deck worse. As those decks stand, they're just flatout worse than the R/Ws and the Abzans of the world. I mean, outside of Dig Through Time, what does it offer you? Counterspells? All of its counterspells are just bad and not really worth using. Dig Through Time is literally the only good card blue has (disregarding mutli-colored cards like Jeskai Ascen, Mantis Rider, etc.) and even that just isn't worth splashing blue for.
First, the results disagree with you on blue being terrible. Second, Jeskai offers you Mantis Rider, Dig Through Time/Treasure Cruise, sideboard counterspells, and sometimes Jeskai Charm, which I think is better than slightly more consistent mana and Chained to the Rocks.
Devotion is an interesting animal, but I've always found it odd that you would ramp up for an 8 mana planeswalker only to exile all your own rampers, then have Ugin just eat a Downfall and then put you in a really bad position. You'd be better off ramping for Hornet Queen and generating actual value, while keeping your rampers intact should you need them later on in the game.
Your point being? Devotion is still viable.
So yeah, I go back to my previous point. If you're playing competitively, you play abzan or r/w or die.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I think the 'average' power level of cards in Modern should be higher, particularly in certain weaker archetypes, but also that some archetypes and cards currently in Standard are either potentially ban-worth overpowered now or will be once the format fills out more and the decks they are in are no longer reliant on a bunch of junk and a few overpowered cards balanced by the fact that the rest of the deck is junk.
I think in the process, we'll get closer to Legacy overall, but the best cards in the format will get farther and farther away from legacy.
As for expense, I'm glad Modern has no cards on the restricted list, because I want them to reprint stuff sufficiently that for every card, there is a tournament legal version available on the secondary market (not neccesarily the most popular/coolest version, some with special art or that are promos or original printings or foils might be more expensive) that is the following prices or below:
Mythic Rare - $40
Rare - $20
Rare mana-fixing land (ie. shocks, fetches, fastlands, filterlands, painlands, mana confluence, city of brass, gemstone mine, etc. but not neccesarily special stuff like utility lands or the dual-land manlands and cavern of souls that do stuff besides just mana fixing) - $10
Uncommon - $4
Common - $1
If Modern cards go above those kind of prices, they are probably in need of a reprint, so long as the price per pack and number of cards of each type in the packs remains as it is now, and in most cases, I'd prefer cards to be noticeably cheaper than these prices, especially Modern staples used in multiple archetypes that are often played as a 4 of in the decks they are found in, the more expensive prices should be relegated to the upper most popular and powerful cards across multiple formats that are usually are played in less than a playset.
This isn't just for my own sake, I also want this to be done to discourage theft of decks and cards, as I often hear about people's decks and cards being stolen at events, including people I know having their cards stolen, and I want people to be able to take cheaper versions of cards to tournaments and not lose out as much and wind up quitting magic or something because they can't afford to replace their deck when stuff is stolen.
I'm also basing these prices somewhat on Standard secondary market prices, what appears to be the upper edges of value for stuff just recently put into print. Any time something goes above the prices I listed, demand is likely high enough that even with a reprint, it will remain relatively high or climb back up after a while, because the number of players will steadily grow over time.
I want new players to be able to have a chance to get into Modern, no matter how many years down the line it is.
Assume something like 1/3rd or less of the paper prices I listed for MTGO, since stuff tends to be noticeably cheaper there.
Now if in the future Wotc decides to remove Legacy, I would understand a push in power to Modern to appease the Legacy crowd. But I would hope Wotc would create something new for those that got pushed out/lost interest in a more powerful Modern.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The ban whats good attitude really sucks.
Spirits
It will inevitably become so just by printing new cards continually.
Banning cards from every new expansion is just a bad plan.
I'll play the strongest format non reserve list cards can make.
This is where I'm at, and I feel that standard also suffers from the same problems. There's just no reason not to run BGx Goodstuff.dec in either format unless you're running some kind of combo deck.
I don't want another color combination to take that place, but to have other colors at least be remotely competitive.
You are correct in Modern but not in Standard. In Standard RW Aggro, Green Devotion, UB Control, Jeskai Tempo, UW Heroic, and Jeskai Tokens are all viable.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Also, I want to say you have an excellent screen name. "Jez, can you tell me, as a mate, someone who knows me really well, is the bottom half of me on fire?"
How is this really different from shying away from building a deck because the meta may shift and your deck will be obsolete? I honestly think it's more of an issue with the cost of modern than with the banning criteria. I think that there's too many just all-in linear strategies. That's really what's wrong with modern. When you ban the strongest deck, the (still super strong decks) that were held back by it take its place. I don't disagree with you, people should be able to play the fun decks they imagine, but I think that that issue would be lessened if modern weren't so god damned expensive.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
What I like from this is that we, who probably share fairly different views on what modern *should* be, all agree on what the *problem* is at the moment--an imbalance between the power level of the colors. It's one of the aspects I like a ton about legacy, and it's something modern WILL eventually grow to have if the format survives--the "I don't think it should all be about combo--well I think it should be about color diversity--well I think it should be about strategic diversity" type arguments often exist entirely independently from discussions of the power level of the cards or the format itself--people generally agree that force of will is a good thing in legacy, for example, even if they hate playing with or against it. Modern needs to go through a crucible of some kind or form (maybe the pod banning is the impetus) to allow modern players to realize that formats need safety valves, and the best way to do that is to have a balance between the relative power level of cards in the format. In legacy, there are three sorts of "metagame police" to keep broken-ness in check. The first is the permission heavy tempo decks. They keep fast combo in check. The second are attrition decks--the grindy decks like shardless BUG and Jund that go the opposite end of the spectrum. The third kind is the "sideboard police"--dredge. Whenever people decide to spread themselves too thin to try and fight every archetype equally, graveyard hate suffers, and dredge comes in and wins an event in commanding fashion. The problem is that Modern only has ONE safety valve--BGx. Everything in modern can metagame all they want against BGx, but when it comes down to it BGx is still a 50/50 deck against anything they want to be 50/50 against. Jack of all trades, master of none. The solution they tried for beating the linear decks was strong targeted hate, but strong hate (like stony silence, or creeping corrosion, or rule of law) is only reasonable if you can already have a decent chance of dragging the game out to get there. So, whatever deck is most reliably able to survive or perform without its hate is still going to rise to the top. Because they tried to rely on "safety valve" cards instead of archetypes, we've arrived at the situation where there are too many fires to put out (different linear decks), not enough fire hoses to go around (sideboard slots), and so whatever building is the most solid is going to survive (the ROCK... ok, BGx) more often. The blue countermagic shells aren't strong enough on their own to reliably combat the linear decks, because they've had their library manipulation stripped, and the powerful taxing and delay abilities that make legacy mono white control (death and taxes) viable aren't strong enough to compete with the raw creatures of the BGx shell while simultaneously being disruptive enough to stop the linear decks, and so all we're left with is discard and abrupt decay/maelstrom pulse.
Moral of the story: Powerful threats require powerful answers because threats are inherently better than answers since they win the game if unanswered, while an answer just sits in your hand wasting potential turns of mana expenditure. Modern-tier threats only have modern-tier answers in the BGx shell, and so it devolves into BGx vs linear strategies, and to those who say merfolk tribal or burn represent fast agro, no, they're just linear strategies that attack on a different axis (redundancy) than the other linear decks. Even RG tron is to some extent a highly linear strategy, revolved around resolving and protecting a small class of powerful threats.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I like Modern more. I like the power level of modern where it is. Price doesn't affect it for me, I like Modern just the way it is. It's diverse, their are different strategies to play, and no color is dominate.
However, other people want more diversity or different decks in modern. Thus, I dream of a world where modern is no more powerful than it is now, but other strategies that are tier 3 or 2.5 go up 1 tier so that more decks can be played and be competitive.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
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#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
A lot of pros think that UB control isn't a viable deck.
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/the-best-deck-playing-redwhite-midrange/
The article isn't about UB control, but in it Costa does take a shot at how UB control isn't very good when comparing it to R/W.
I simply disagree with you when you say all those other decks are viable. They can win occasionally, but that doesn't make them viable. In standard, there are 2 must-answer cards and those Siege Rhino and Goblin Rabblemaster. Abzan has Rhino, and R/W has Rabblemaster. The rest of the decks in standard don't have anything near that power level.
UB Control was 5.6% of the meta 5 days ago and won a Grand Prix two weekends ago, and that is if you group Sultai Control separately (which just won the last GP and was 4.2% of the meta 5 days ago). While Matt is a good player, the results speak differently.
Ugin is way above that power-level when you cast him, which UBx Control can consistently do. Same goes for Green Devotion when it is generating a ton of mana. Both Jeskai decks play Rabblemaster. UW Heroic might have been a bit of a stretch, but it is still a contender.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Pokes aside, I would like to point out that if we look at recent day 2 metagame %'s in modern, not very many archetypes were represented at the 5% mark, certainly not when you lump things in terms of fair/reactive vs unfair/linear decks. Standard and legacy both have much better diversity at the moment than modern when viewed in that light.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I know all, see all, and post EVERYWHERE!
Agreed. Junk was the only fair deck with more than 5% of the meta at GP Vancouver. That is a problem.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The problem is that Legacy isn't being supported. Three tournaments a year, in three different countries, on three different continents, isn't support for a format.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Spirits
This is exactly my problem with the format and I say this as someone who's sleeved up 90% of the competitive decks in the format in the last 2 years and generally still enjoy the format.
We need better cards in the format, plain and simple. I feel like aside from helping combo, the only good blue cards in the format are , Clique, SCM and cryptic. Red sucks outside of burn. Black is great. Green is great. White is decent on its sideboard strength alone.
Yep.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Ivan Floch seems thinks that UB control is pretty awful and he played the deck on the pro tour. If you're going to go by "it just won a GP" logic, any deck can theoretically metagame properly to win an event. The problem however, is that UB control is only 5.6% of the meta. If its as viable as you're suggesting, it would clearly have a much larger share of the pie. It doesn't. Therefore I assert its not really a good deck.
Ugin can definitely be at that kind of power level, but that requires you to actually have 8 mana to cast the damn thing. This standard is getting faster and more aggressive every day, and you just can't sit around durdling hoping to cast Ugin when you're getting your face bashed in. If you're playing control and you've cast Ugin, you were probably going to win the game regardless if you played Ugin or something else in its place, just because the game dragged out that long. "There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers" describes what I mean very well. The problem with Ugin is that if you are able to cast him, anything else in his place would also do. So, I'm not convinced Ugin is anywhere near Rabblemaster or Rhino's level due to its prohibitive mana cost.
The problem with the Jeskai decks is that they're basically watered down R/W decks except that they're running blue. And that's kind of a problem. Blue is an inherently slow color and even splashing it slows you down a lot. Blue is also objectively the worst color in magic right now, offering little justification outside of some multicolored cards and some card draw. I've always felt that decks like Jeskai, Temur and Sultai would be so much more efficient as just R/W, G/R and B/G decks because they'd be cutting out the fat. There's really no competitive reason to use blue right now, it only makes your deck worse. As those decks stand, they're just flatout worse than the R/Ws and the Abzans of the world. I mean, outside of Dig Through Time, what does it offer you? Counterspells? All of its counterspells are just bad and not really worth using. Dig Through Time is literally the only good card blue has (disregarding mutli-colored cards like Jeskai Ascen, Mantis Rider, etc.) and even that just isn't worth splashing blue for.
Devotion is an interesting animal, but I've always found it odd that you would ramp up for an 8 mana planeswalker only to exile all your own rampers, then have Ugin just eat a Downfall and then put you in a really bad position. You'd be better off ramping for Hornet Queen and generating actual value, while keeping your rampers intact should you need them later on in the game.
So yeah, I go back to my previous point. If you're playing competitively, you play abzan or r/w or die.
If you group UBx Control decks together like you did for Abzan decks, it is 9.8% of the meta and just won 2 Grand Prix. That is certainly what I would consider viable.
How is Standard getting faster every day? We are seeing UBx Control decks, Devotion decks, and Abzan Control decks running maindeck board-sweepers being very strong. If anything the format has actually gotten slower. UB Control is a deck designed to go late, and if it does and lands Ugin it basically wins.
First, the results disagree with you on blue being terrible. Second, Jeskai offers you Mantis Rider, Dig Through Time/Treasure Cruise, sideboard counterspells, and sometimes Jeskai Charm, which I think is better than slightly more consistent mana and Chained to the Rocks.
Your point being? Devotion is still viable.
The results say otherwise.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.