20 or so seems unlikely, I'd be satisfied with between 12-16 T1 decks, just so long as there is at least 3 noticeably different ones in each of these 4 categories:
Control (not the tempo, midrange or tempo-combo decks we usually tend to see called control these days)
Aggro
Aggro-Control (includes tempo and midrange, etc.)
Combo
I could imagine a dream format being something along these lines in minimum size, all of these being roughly equal T1 decks:
Control:
UWx 'pure'/'true' control
Prison deck
Turbo fog w/tweaks to handle non-aggro decks better Sometimes Mono-black discard/kill control
Aggro:
Burn
Naya Zoo
White weenie Sometimes Affinity
Aggro-Control:
Tempo Faeries
BGx midrange
Hatebears Sometimes Mardu Midrange
Combo:
Scapeshift
Kikki-Angel
Combo Elves Sometimes Reanimator
---
Of course, some of these examples don't work out well theory-crafting wise or potentially in the same meta, but having at least 12 different decks, at least 3 in each category, would be the dream. Of course some would likely sorta fit in multiple categories, especially the combo decks, and some behave weirdly in this setup, like ramp decks and any control decks that hate better on creature aggro than on combo like turbo fog might. 16 would be even better than 12 of course, but I doubt things would stick to that number of decks, 16 would be more like the upper range of things, and occasionally some decks would shift in and out of T1 as new cards are printed or with the occasional ban, particularly ones that are on the closer edges to tier 2 or are more meta reliant, like hatebears, but things would rise in to replace them quickly to keep at least 3 decks in each category, and things would usually probably be around 14 tier 1 decks.
20 or so seems unlikely, I'd be satisfied with between 12-16 T1 decks, just so long as there is at least 3 noticeably different ones in each of these 4 categories:
Control (not the tempo, midrange or tempo-combo decks we usually tend to see called control these days)
Aggro
Aggro-Control (includes tempo and midrange, etc.)
Combo
I could imagine a dream format being something along these lines in minimum size, all of these being roughly equal T1 decks:
Control:
UWx 'pure'/'true' control
Prison deck
Turbo fog w/tweaks to handle non-aggro decks better Sometimes Mono-black discard/kill control
Aggro:
Burn
Naya Zoo
White weenie Sometimes Affinity
Aggro-Control:
Tempo Faeries
BGx midrange
Hatebears Sometimes Mardu Midrange
Combo:
Scapeshift
Kikki-Angel
Combo Elves Sometimes Reanimator
---
Of course, some of these examples don't work out well theory-crafting wise or potentially in the same meta, but having at least 12 different decks, at least 3 in each category, would be the dream. Of course some would likely sorta fit in multiple categories, especially the combo decks, and some behave weirdly in this setup, like ramp decks and any control decks that hate better on creature aggro than on combo like turbo fog might. 16 would be even better than 12 of course, but I doubt things would stick to that number of decks, 16 would be more like the upper range of things, and occasionally some decks would shift in and out of T1 as new cards are printed or with the occasional ban, particularly ones that are on the closer edges to tier 2 or are more meta reliant, like hatebears, but things would rise in to replace them quickly to keep at least 3 decks in each category, and things would usually probably be around 14 tier 1 decks.
The problem with your vision is Wotc has said they dont like 'pure'. 'true' control. They have shied away from prison decks also. You discount the current T1 decks in Infect and say sometimes Affinity. Combo Elves is not viable without Glimpse makes Elves too fast for the format. If these ideas for you are set in stone in your mind, I think you are going to always be unhappy with Modern.
The problem with your vision is Wotc has said they dont like 'pure'. 'true' control. They have shied away from prison decks also. You discount the current T1 decks in Infect and say sometimes Affinity. Combo Elves is not viable without Glimpse makes Elves too fast for the format. If these ideas for you are set in stone in your mind, I think you are going to always be unhappy with Modern.
No? Pure control has been a thing in the most recent standards. If they didn't like it, why would it be a thing there?
WOTC has also said that they separate aggro control and control decks. What is your source?
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
20 or so seems unlikely, I'd be satisfied with between 12-16 T1 decks, just so long as there is at least 3 noticeably different ones in each of these 4 categories:
Control (not the tempo, midrange or tempo-combo decks we usually tend to see called control these days)
Aggro
Aggro-Control (includes tempo and midrange, etc.)
Combo
I could imagine a dream format being something along these lines in minimum size, all of these being roughly equal T1 decks:
Control:
UWx 'pure'/'true' control
Prison deck
Turbo fog w/tweaks to handle non-aggro decks better Sometimes Mono-black discard/kill control
Aggro:
Burn
Naya Zoo
White weenie Sometimes Affinity
Aggro-Control:
Tempo Faeries
BGx midrange
Hatebears Sometimes Mardu Midrange
Combo:
Scapeshift
Kikki-Angel
Combo Elves Sometimes Reanimator
---
Of course, some of these examples don't work out well theory-crafting wise or potentially in the same meta, but having at least 12 different decks, at least 3 in each category, would be the dream. Of course some would likely sorta fit in multiple categories, especially the combo decks, and some behave weirdly in this setup, like ramp decks and any control decks that hate better on creature aggro than on combo like turbo fog might. 16 would be even better than 12 of course, but I doubt things would stick to that number of decks, 16 would be more like the upper range of things, and occasionally some decks would shift in and out of T1 as new cards are printed or with the occasional ban, particularly ones that are on the closer edges to tier 2 or are more meta reliant, like hatebears, but things would rise in to replace them quickly to keep at least 3 decks in each category, and things would usually probably be around 14 tier 1 decks.
The problem with your vision is Wotc has said they dont like 'pure'. 'true' control. They have shied away from prison decks also. You discount the current T1 decks in Infect and say sometimes Affinity. Combo Elves is not viable without Glimpse makes Elves too fast for the format. If these ideas for you are set in stone in your mind, I think you are going to always be unhappy with Modern.
They aren't, I wasn't saying those would be the specific decks, I was just using examples of a theoretical format for the numbers side of things, and WotC has specifically said the opposite of what you are saying about control. I wanted a 'sometimes' in each category and picked them as I made the list, and felt Affinity could get the 'sometimes' condition due to being vulnerable to artifact hate perhaps, but I wasn't being serious about it. It's the number of decks in each category I'm concerned about, as well as the total number of tier 1 decks, rather than which specific decks they are, with the exception of that there needs to be a control deck that is actually good at policing combo decks, otherwise we'll never get combo decks that aren't so dominant that they wind up needing to be banned for screwing up the meta in the long run, and it is likely only a 'true' or 'pure' control that is partly blue utilitzing counterspells could pull that off as a combo deck police reliably enough.
The poll shows what the problems are between the player base here on this site. 2 groups with different ideas about what and how the format should be handled. Wotc has created a monster and sooner or later Wotc is going to have to make one group upset by choosing a direction for the format.
I don't think its as close as you pretending. You shouldn't read the poll as, "two groups at 38.2% want different things," the poll clearly says, "53.8% want a more powerful format (whether or not they want to play legacy is largely irrelevant for a discussion about modern), 38.2% want it to stay the same, and a measly 8% want less power."
I voted Yes to an increase in power that feels more like Legacy. I just think that Legacy is so much more fun! All these different decks and different strategies, and you can play with Force of WIll, Stoneforge Mystic, Mother of Runes, and those cards are a blast to play with. I have Modern versions of D&T, Goblins, Elves, Merfolk, and Faeries, and while Merfolk is a pretty consistent performer in Modern, the other 4 decks that I have need much more love to be real contender's in Modern atm. If Wizards had decided to include 7th Edition as the cutoff for Modern, I'd have access to very important cards to make my Goblins and Elves more viable. Sadly, I don't just don't see Wizards printing cards that would boost the viability of those kinds of decks. Those decks are T3 strategies (Merfolk is T2), and I just don't see it getting better for most T3 decks.
The problem lies with Wizards not designing cards with Modern in mind. We just need to hope that in 10 years from now, there will be cards printed in Standard that can "maybe" fit into our T3 and T2 strategies. If not, the format will continue to be dominated by the same Top 5 decks; Affinity, Burn, BGx, Twin, and now Infect (infect has moved up in the world!)
Why doesn't Wizards ever think along the lines of "Hey, we should throw Modern Goblin decks a bone, why don't we reprint Goblin Ringleader or Goblin Matron?" The same should be applied to any T3 strategy at the very least. T2 decks can usually make it on their own, but most T3 decks really need some sort of consideration like that.
I don't play T1 decks. I have an Affinity deck, but I seldom play it. I just like the flavour and strategies of most of the T2 and T3 decks. I find them more fun to play with and build around. And I should say that I'm a tribal synergy kind of guy. I also have a Tron deck, and that deck is super fun and flavourful (to me).
The poll shows what the problems are between the player base here on this site. 2 groups with different ideas about what and how the format should be handled. Wotc has created a monster and sooner or later Wotc is going to have to make one group upset by choosing a direction for the format.
I don't think its as close as you pretending. You shouldn't read the poll as, "two groups at 38.2% want different things," the poll clearly says, "53.8% want a more powerful format (whether or not they want to play legacy is largely irrelevant for a discussion about modern), 38.2% want it to stay the same, and a measly 8% want less power."
The part about them wanting to play Legacy is actually pretty relevant.
Because that means that these people don't play Modern because the want to play Modern. They just play it because they cannot afford Legacy. That's an important distinction.
People like me play Modern because they want to play it. If I wanted to play Legacy then I would do that.
So if you keep that in mind you will see that 15.4% + 37.9% + 7.9% = 61.2% don't want Modern to just become Legacy and that is exactly what Wizards has done so far.
I voted Yes to an increase in power that feels more like Legacy. I just think that Legacy is so much more fun! All these different decks and different strategies, and you can play with Force of WIll, Stoneforge Mystic, Mother of Runes, and those cards are a blast to play with. I have Modern versions of D&T, Goblins, Elves, Merfolk, and Faeries, and while Merfolk is a pretty consistent performer in Modern, the other 4 decks that I have need much more love to be real contender's in Modern atm. If Wizards had decided to include 7th Edition as the cutoff for Modern, I'd have access to very important cards to make my Goblins and Elves more viable. Sadly, I don't just don't see Wizards printing cards that would boost the viability of those kinds of decks. Those decks are T3 strategies (Merfolk is T2), and I just don't see it getting better for most T3 decks.
The problem lies with Wizards not designing cards with Modern in mind. We just need to hope that in 10 years from now, there will be cards printed in Standard that can "maybe" fit into our T3 and T2 strategies. If not, the format will continue to be dominated by the same Top 5 decks; Affinity, Burn, BGx, Twin, and now Infect (infect has moved up in the world!)
Why doesn't Wizards ever think along the lines of "Hey, we should throw Modern Goblin decks a bone, why don't we reprint Goblin Ringleader or Goblin Matron?" The same should be applied to any T3 strategy at the very least. T2 decks can usually make it on their own, but most T3 decks really need some sort of consideration like that.
I don't play T1 decks. I have an Affinity deck, but I seldom play it. I just like the flavour and strategies of most of the T2 and T3 decks. I find them more fun to play with and build around. And I should say that I'm a tribal synergy kind of guy. I also have a Tron deck, and that deck is super fun and flavourful (to me).
Everything you talk about in this post is what I dont want to happen to Modern. The cards you mention should never come into Modern. What you consider a 'blast' to play with, I find miserable to play against. Those cards can be played in a format, and that format is called Legacy. Try it out and stop trying to make Modern Legacy or Legacy lite.
Quote from AgrusKosEnforcerofTruth »
I don't think its as close as you pretending. You shouldn't read the poll as, "two groups at 38.2% want different things," the poll clearly says, "53.8% want a more powerful format (whether or not they want to play legacy is largely irrelevant for a discussion about modern), 38.2% want it to stay the same, and a measly 8% want less power."
Even if you look at it from your point of view its a 53%/47% split. Pretty close to a perfect division of the player base. I dont think 3% is enough for Wotc to move in a that direction. We clearly have 2 groups that want very different things for the format. In some cases there is a chasm between those groups.
@AvalonAurora, What I meant about 'true' control is draw go/prison style type control. Wotc has come out and said they have found those types of control are unfun and hurt formats. I agree there should be control in the format, but I dont think we will ever have 'true', or 'pure' control in Modern.
No? Pure control has been a thing in the most recent standards. If they didn't like it, why would it be a thing there?
This really surprised me as well. Having Supreme Verdict, Sphinx's Revelation, and Detention Sphere all in the same set was surprising. But I think his point remains that WoTC doesn't want typical Control decks in Modern to be very strong. Until something is done that proves otherwise (swinging the pendulum), then I will personally always hold this view.
A few weeks ago at the Los Angeles Modern IQ, I played against a guy on Esper Control. I was playing Bogles. I won game 1 easily. Games 2 and 3 were long dragged out affairs, in which I finally won the match, 2-1. At the end of the match, my opponent was clearly frustrated that he didn't continue to draw answers for each threat that I had. He asked me if I expected to do well with Bogles (mind you, I was 5-1 at the time). I told him which matchups I felt good in, okay in, and which ones would take a lot of SB work. It seemed incredulous to him that I would expect to do well with Bogles, but I had to bite my lip about playing Control. I honestly feel that "how can someone do well with Control" in Modern? Now I know someone will bring up Shaun McLaren's UWR Counterburn or Kiki Control... Luckily the conversation was fairly cordial since my opponent rode to the tournament with a long time Magic friend who had moved to Las Vegas a few years ago, but I honestly couldn't see someone top 8ing a tournament with Control. Even Control lists that have a lot of burn or are more midrangey decks should have a tough time. Obviously Sukenik's 4 color Counterburn and Fabiano's Sultai Midrange surprised me with results. Control is just not the type of deck that WoTC wants in Modern and the days of Control mirrors are going to be outdated for the most part, outside of FNMs where players play their preference rather than what is doing well of course.
Besides there are many decks which run very little creatures. All three Tron decks, Scapeshift, Blue Moon, UWR Control just to name a few.
I know I missed this post and it was quite a while ago, but here's my 2 cents.
You also have to point out that aside from Scapeshift at 5% of the meta, the rest are all less than 3% each and that's being generous. Scapeshift actually should be played more. It is really a Tier 1 deck in my opinion, that a good player can do very well with. This is my opinion after playing the deck for 2-3 months myself, as well as testing against it in the past a bunch. Burn itself has a higher metagame percentage than all of those creature-less decks combined. Burn, mono red.
There really is no reason not to run Path to Exile. It will be so rarely dead that you can side those out in those matchups and not be hurt too badly for it. I run 3 Path to Exile in Bogles. Yesterday at a PPTQ, I faced the mirror. I won by doing Path to Exile on his Dryad Arbor. I have also learned to not take out the Path to Exile against nearly any deck (of course obviously it's so good vs. all of the Tier 1 decks).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
The poll shows what the problems are between the player base here on this site. 2 groups with different ideas about what and how the format should be handled. Wotc has created a monster and sooner or later Wotc is going to have to make one group upset by choosing a direction for the format.
I don't think its as close as you pretending. You shouldn't read the poll as, "two groups at 38.2% want different things," the poll clearly says, "53.8% want a more powerful format (whether or not they want to play legacy is largely irrelevant for a discussion about modern), 38.2% want it to stay the same, and a measly 8% want less power."
The part about them wanting to play Legacy is actually pretty relevant.
Because that means that these people don't play Modern because the want to play Modern. They just play it because they cannot afford Legacy. That's an important distinction.
People like me play Modern because they want to play it. If I wanted to play Legacy then I would do that.
So if you keep that in mind you will see that 15.4% + 37.9% + 7.9% = 61.2% don't want Modern to just become Legacy and that is exactly what Wizards has done so far.
Emphasis mine.
No, it's not an important distinction. Legacy will never be as popular or expensive as Modern (because of the reserved list), so the distinction is absolutely irrelevant. Let me rephrase the top two poll options for you:
Poll: Should the power level of Modern get closer to Legacy?
1) Yes and I would play Legacy if the world were a different place.
2) Yes, but I wouldn't play Legacy even if the world were a different place.
The world is what it is. Right now, 54.4% of the people taking the poll want a more powerful Modern.
Modern will always have a distinct feeling from Legacy, because cards like Brainstorm will never exist in this format. It's disingenuous to suggest that Modern "becomes Legacy" simply by being more powerful. It would take a lot more than a few powerful Modern-legal cards for Modern as a format to feel like Legacy.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Modern will always have a distinct feeling from Legacy, because cards like Brainstorm will never exist in this format. It's disingenuous to suggest that Modern "becomes Legacy" simply by being more powerful. It would take a lot more than a few powerful Modern-legal cards for Modern as a format to feel like Legacy.
You fool yourself if you think that.
On this forum alone there are a ton of people, you among them, who keep mentioning Legacy when talking about Modern despite both formats having nothing to do with each other at all and keep mentioning cards that are only legal there like Counterspell, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Daze, Force of Will just to name a few cards that come up in such conversations. Right now there is discussion in the banlist thread about unbanning Glimpse of Nature and Dread Return to make Dredge and Elves a thing. The only logical conclusion is that these people want in fact Legacy V2 and nothing else.
If you seriously think that Wizards will ever cater to such wishes then I can't help you. Keep thinking and complaining about that. Nobody cares.
New cards from Standard are what will shape the future of Modern and not old cards from a long gone time.
They may reprint a few older cards they feel fine about like the Onslaught fetches, Reprisal or Explosive Vegetation but don't expect something big in that regard.
On this forum alone there are a ton of people, you among them, who keep mentioning Legacy when talking about Modern despite both formats having nothing to do with each other at all and keep mentioning cards that are only legal there like Counterspell, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Daze, Force of Will just to name a few cards that come up in such conversations. Right now there is discussion in the banlist thread about unbanning Glimpse of Nature and Dread Return to make Dredge and Elves a thing. The only logical conclusion is that these people want in fact Legacy V2 and nothing else.
They probably want a Combo deck where players have to actively sideboard cards in order to beat rather than GBx just playing "powerful spells" and crushing Combo. But I agree with you that Wizards is probably never going to have that. They will never have something like when UR Storm was THE DECK to beat for 3 months in the former Extended.
I think the setup for Modern is fine. GBx has all of the tools that Legacy Jund has except Deathrite Shaman, Bloodbraid Elf and some lands. Bloodbraid Elf has the highest chance to be unbanned of any card if it is considered a creature. Now if Wizards considers Bloodbraid Elf a "spell" since it casts a spell that is put on the stack, then we will never see Bloodbraid Elf. As we can all see, Wizards considers DRS to be a spell or powerful planeswalker and those are no good in Modern.
I agree with you that we will never see a 5 Color Control deck or a Combo deck be "the decks to beat" in Modern. (although Wizards could just as easily nerf a card from Junk and the rise of Combo would be off-putting to many; which is why I personally feel that nothing in Junk is ban-able)
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
i really couldnt vote with the choices, I mean, look I like all of the decks in my signature and none of them would be as interesting as they are in modern if they were in legacy. But none of the decks I play are really legitimate outside of like affinity and scapeshift.
I would love to have more equipment that made up for stoneforge being powerful enough to be banned though (they said that stoneforge kept them from printing powerful equipment...and I havent seen any, as a player who wants good grindy equipment for faeries, that isnt a giant roadblock in the strategy, but knows Jitte is too powerful for modern)
I would love for elves to get a card like Soul of the Harvest at a cheaper mana cost with a more fragile body because removal should be able to slow down the combo in the same way they made storm have to play around removal (would be good as a 2/2 elf creature for 1GGG mana
I feel like getting to the lategame should be rewarded and wouldnt mind playing 3 mana for a counterspell, just one with a slight bonus for the mana, even Dissipate or Dissolve arent terrible, but three mana counterspells could use more variety in their benefit to casting them like Absorb and Undermine ...I mean Id like to cast bogardan hellkite in the lategame, but maybe counterspell isnt whats necessary. Control finishers are abundant, and 3 mana counterspells are fine, but 3 mana counterspells with upside that helps get you casting your big creature finisher or whatever
Id like more focus on job-type tribal assistance like what they started doing with warriors, because shamans is on the verge of being a respected aggro deck; it just got dicked around by the banlist.
I jsut want decks that exist, fringe non tier 1 and 2 decks, to get real support
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
On this forum alone there are a ton of people, you among them, who keep mentioning Legacy when talking about Modern despite both formats having nothing to do with each other at all and keep mentioning cards that are only legal there like Counterspell, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Daze, Force of Will just to name a few cards that come up in such conversations.
I "keep mentioning Legacy" in the sense that I can use "Legacy" and "Modern" in the same sentence without freaking out like you do. Both Modern and Legacy are non-rotating formats, and it makes sense to compare the two, from the perspective of format health. You won't be able to avoid the comparisons to Legacy, so I suggest you deal with it.
If you seriously think that Wizards will ever cater to such wishes then I can't help you. Keep thinking and complaining about that. Nobody cares.
WotC isn't going to "cater to such wishes", because they're more interested in money than they are in providing an optimal play environment. They're a business. That's how this works. But just because it sells packs, doesn't mean the format is healthy. It just means that the changes to the game have opened up new markets for WotC.
People don't like complexity, and they don't like losing. WotC has taken clear steps to "fixing" both of those problems, specifically by nerfing control strategies, and pushing combat interaction. Again, the world is what it is. But don't pretend that the state of Modern today is the result of "good game design". Modern is the result of aggressive market research.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Both Modern and Legacy are non-rotating formats, and it makes sense to compare the two, from the perspective of format health.
No, it doesn't. Because the requisite would be that Legacy is healthy and that is heavily debatable.
Jeff Hoogland for example has been very vocal about the problems of Legacy and has quit the format entirely because of them.
The same cards seeing play in 80% of all decks is not what I consider healthy at all.
Quite a few people don't and that along with the card availability issues is the reason why Legacy is just a fraction of the Modern and Standard community.
Legacy is not the sacred cow like some people want to make you think it is.
WotC isn't going to "cater to such wishes", because they're more interested in money than they are in providing an optimal play environment. They're a business. That's how this works. But just because it sells packs, doesn't mean the format is healthy. It just means that the changes to the game have opened up new markets for WotC.
People don't like complexity, and they don't like losing. WotC has taken clear steps to "fixing" both of those problems, specifically by nerfing control strategies, and pushing combat interaction. Again, the world is what it is. But don't pretend that the state of Modern today is the result of "good game design". Modern is the result of aggressive market research.
I hope you are not one of these people who hate on things that are or become "mainstream" because you sound like one.
The current game design is great. If you don't think it is then maybe play something like Heathstone or Yu-Gi-Oh.
To clarify further, I don't care about the power level. I'm fine with that increasing. What I want is more accessibility. I feel that the intent, and the execution of Modern should be Legacy for the masses. It should be the eternal format for everybody. Again, reprint the expensive stuff. It looks like WotC is doing a decent job with this reprinting Thoughtsieze in a standard set. They need to reprint Goyf in standard, in one of the blocks that will only be legal for 18 months instead of 24. At first I thought Goyf is too powerful, but the trend for years is for stupid powerful creatures to dominate standard so I don't see the problem. Just reprint Mana Leak with it.
So the power level can be whatever since it's meant to replace Legacy anyway. So I don't mind if it's a powerful format. But it needs to be everyone's eternal format. None of this well I'm only playing burn because it's all I can afford.
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I don't fear the man who has played 10,000 decks once. I fear the man who played one deck 10,000 times.
Both Modern and Legacy are non-rotating formats, and it makes sense to compare the two, from the perspective of format health.
No, it doesn't. Because the requisite would be that Legacy is healthy and that is heavily debatable.
Jeff Hoogland for example has been very vocal about the problems of Legacy and has quit the format entirely because of them.
The same cards seeing play in 80% of all decks is not what I consider healthy at all.
Quite a few people don't and that along with the card availability issues is the reason why Legacy is just a fraction of the Modern and Standard community.
Legacy is not the sacred cow like some people want to make you think it is.
From the poll on this very thread, 39% of people would play Legacy if it were as popular/expensive as Modern. 39% is a huge number. Legacy's lack of accessibility isn't driven by color imbalance; it's driven by prices and availability.
If you have different reasons for playing Modern, that's fine. But look at the poll, and then back to what you just typed. You're just not right about players' format preferences.
I hope you are not one of these people who hate on things that are or become "mainstream" because you sound like one.
The current game design is great. If you don't think it is then maybe play something like Heathstone or Yu-Gi-Oh.
Games like Hearthstone or Yu-Gi-Oh, take the problems of Modern and make them worse. My alternative to the Modern format is Legacy.
The current game design is simpler than it used to be. Some people think that's great. Other people don't. Regardless of what people think, it sells more packs than it used to.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
The problem with your vision is Wotc has said they dont like 'pure'. 'true' control. They have shied away from prison decks also. You discount the current T1 decks in Infect and say sometimes Affinity. Combo Elves is not viable without Glimpse makes Elves too fast for the format. If these ideas for you are set in stone in your mind, I think you are going to always be unhappy with Modern.
No? Pure control has been a thing in the most recent standards. If they didn't like it, why would it be a thing there?
WOTC has also said that they separate aggro control and control decks. What is your source?
Wotc has said many times that they have found that control such as draw go and prison decks are unfun.
There is a huge difference between a playable control deck that is not dominate in Standard, a rotating format, and a T1 draw go/prison control deck in an non-rotating format. If the control deck gets too powerful in Standard they have banned it in the past, and they have been very careful to not have control be 'the' deck of Standard, just another competitive deck. What do you think would happen if Wotc allowed a draw go or prison type control deck to rule Modern for a few months? What do you think it would do to attendance numbers to not only large events, but local ones?
Control is a lot like Pod. If control gets a foot in the T1 level, its just going to continue to get better until it needs to be banned. Then we have a whole group of pissed off players because their pet deck got hit.
From the poll on this very thread, 39% of people would play Legacy if it were as popular/expensive as Modern. 39% is a huge number. Legacy's lack of accessibility isn't driven by color imbalance; it's driven by prices and availability.
If you have different reasons for playing Modern, that's fine. But look at the poll, and then back to what you just typed. You're just not right about players' format preferences.
Last time I checked 61% is an even bigger number. That is the amount of people who would not play Legacy according to the poll irregardless of card prices or popularity.
Don't know what your argument is here.
The argument was that adding more playable decks to the format, increases the number of playable decks in the format. Tautology.
Sure.
Decks that are conform with the current design philosophy of Wizards and are enabled or empowered by new Standard cards like Jeskai Ascendancy or Possibility Storm.
There is no need to go out your way and enable decks that are already playable in other formats. Modern is it's own thing.
Games like Hearthstone or Yu-Gi-Oh, take the problems of Modern and make them worse. My alternative to the Modern format is Legacy.
The current game design is simpler than it used to be. Some people think that's great. Other people don't. Regardless of what people think, it sells more packs than it used to.
And if it sells more packs than that is what you should be done. You give customers what they want. I know it's a difficult thing to understand for some people who have exotic tastes.
Wotc has said many times that they have found that control such as draw go and prison decks are unfun.
There is a huge difference between a playable control deck that is not dominate in Standard, a rotating format, and a T1 draw go/prison control deck in an non-rotating format. If the control deck gets too powerful in Standard they have banned it in the past, and they have been very careful to not have control be 'the' deck of Standard, just another competitive deck. What do you think would happen if Wotc allowed a draw go or prison type control deck to rule Modern for a few months? What do you think it would do to attendance numbers to not only large events, but local ones?
Control is a lot like Pod. If control gets a foot in the T1 level, its just going to continue to get better until it needs to be banned. Then we have a whole group of pissed off players because their pet deck got hit.
So you don't have a source. Although UB Control has been about as "pure control" as you can be in our current standard as well as UW draw go being a massive force before the last rotation.
So despite for the past 2 years (at least) having a very strong Draw Go deck around in standard still somehow still supports your interpretation of WOTC game design and not someone who thinks control should still be around if people want to play it.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Wotc has said many times that they have found that control such as draw go and prison decks are unfun.
There is a huge difference between a playable control deck that is not dominate in Standard, a rotating format, and a T1 draw go/prison control deck in an non-rotating format. If the control deck gets too powerful in Standard they have banned it in the past, and they have been very careful to not have control be 'the' deck of Standard, just another competitive deck. What do you think would happen if Wotc allowed a draw go or prison type control deck to rule Modern for a few months? What do you think it would do to attendance numbers to not only large events, but local ones?
Control is a lot like Pod. If control gets a foot in the T1 level, its just going to continue to get better until it needs to be banned. Then we have a whole group of pissed off players because their pet deck got hit.
So you don't have a source. Although UB Control has been about as "pure control" as you can be in our current standard as well as UW draw go being a massive force before the last rotation.
So despite for the past 2 years (at least) having a very strong Draw Go deck around in standard still somehow still supports your interpretation of WOTC game design and not someone who thinks control should still be around if people want to play it.
Again, huge difference between control in Standard and control in Modern. In Standard its not a dominate deck and the meta shifts so often its not a problem. In Modern we dont have those shifts. Having control be T1 would be dangerous. It would be like Pod and just get better with each release of cards. Control in Standard rarely wins events, but plays the spoiler in the event. People want a T1 control deck that has a shot at winning and having answers to all the other decks in the format.
As for the source, it came from Wotc mothership, but I cant find any thing on there since they changed the lay out. They said certain decks were unfun and those decks included true control (draw go prison) and LD to name a few. If someone that knows where the quote is, could they please post it.
Whats funny is I play control in Modern. I dont see the need for a catch all dominate control deck in the format. Control is viable in the format, just not in the form some want. They want to play the 'unfun' versions Wotc doesnt support.
Also, if pure control is playable in Standard for so many seasons? why cant the control players make it work like you wish in Modern?
From the poll on this very thread, 39% of people would play Legacy if it were as popular/expensive as Modern. 39% is a huge number. Legacy's lack of accessibility isn't driven by color imbalance; it's driven by prices and availability.
If you have different reasons for playing Modern, that's fine. But look at the poll, and then back to what you just typed. You're just not right about players' format preferences.
Last time I checked 61% is an even bigger number. That is the amount of people who would not play Legacy according to the poll irregardless of card prices or popularity.
Don't know what your argument is here.
From the poll, we know that 39% of people would play Legacy, if it were as expensive and popular as Modern. The poll doesn't ask how many people wouldn't play Legacy, the poll asks what should happen to the power level of Modern. You can't assume that the people who are happy with Modern's power level, wouldn't play Legacy. That's not how language, or statistics in general, works.
The argument was that adding more playable decks to the format, increases the number of playable decks in the format. Tautology.
Sure.
Decks that are conform with the current design philosophy of Wizards and are enabled or empowered by new Standard cards like Jeskai Ascendancy or Possibility Storm.
There is no need to go out your way and enable decks that are already playable in other formats. Modern is it's own thing.
To an extent, I can agree with you here. Over time, WotC will add more decks to the format that conform with WotC's design philosophies. Those decks can be unique to Modern, although they don't have to be.
It's worth noting that deck redundancy across multiple formats shouldn't be a problem. There's a Modern version of Affinity, and a Legacy version of Affinity. There could be a Modern version of Dredge, and a Legacy version of Dredge. I don't understand the need for "format distinctness" to come from "distinct decks". The card pool alone makes the playable decks distinct - distinctness doesn't have to come from the core operation of the deck.
Games like Hearthstone or Yu-Gi-Oh, take the problems of Modern and make them worse. My alternative to the Modern format is Legacy.
The current game design is simpler than it used to be. Some people think that's great. Other people don't. Regardless of what people think, it sells more packs than it used to.
And if it sells more packs than that is what you should be done. You give customers what they want. I know it's a difficult thing to understand for some people who have exotic tastes.
"Exotic tastes"? This is a stretch, even for you. If format popularity were the only thing that determined WotC's product line, then Modern wouldn't exist at all, because Standard is, was, and will be king forever.
Companies give customers "what they want" because it makes those companies more money. It's not because the majority of customers are somehow right, or know what's best for the sustainability of the business.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Control (not the tempo, midrange or tempo-combo decks we usually tend to see called control these days)
Aggro
Aggro-Control (includes tempo and midrange, etc.)
Combo
I could imagine a dream format being something along these lines in minimum size, all of these being roughly equal T1 decks:
Control:
UWx 'pure'/'true' control
Prison deck
Turbo fog w/tweaks to handle non-aggro decks better
Sometimes Mono-black discard/kill control
Aggro:
Burn
Naya Zoo
White weenie
Sometimes Affinity
Aggro-Control:
Tempo Faeries
BGx midrange
Hatebears
Sometimes Mardu Midrange
Combo:
Scapeshift
Kikki-Angel
Combo Elves
Sometimes Reanimator
---
Of course, some of these examples don't work out well theory-crafting wise or potentially in the same meta, but having at least 12 different decks, at least 3 in each category, would be the dream. Of course some would likely sorta fit in multiple categories, especially the combo decks, and some behave weirdly in this setup, like ramp decks and any control decks that hate better on creature aggro than on combo like turbo fog might. 16 would be even better than 12 of course, but I doubt things would stick to that number of decks, 16 would be more like the upper range of things, and occasionally some decks would shift in and out of T1 as new cards are printed or with the occasional ban, particularly ones that are on the closer edges to tier 2 or are more meta reliant, like hatebears, but things would rise in to replace them quickly to keep at least 3 decks in each category, and things would usually probably be around 14 tier 1 decks.
The problem with your vision is Wotc has said they dont like 'pure'. 'true' control. They have shied away from prison decks also. You discount the current T1 decks in Infect and say sometimes Affinity. Combo Elves is not viable without Glimpse makes Elves too fast for the format. If these ideas for you are set in stone in your mind, I think you are going to always be unhappy with Modern.
No? Pure control has been a thing in the most recent standards. If they didn't like it, why would it be a thing there?
WOTC has also said that they separate aggro control and control decks. What is your source?
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
They aren't, I wasn't saying those would be the specific decks, I was just using examples of a theoretical format for the numbers side of things, and WotC has specifically said the opposite of what you are saying about control. I wanted a 'sometimes' in each category and picked them as I made the list, and felt Affinity could get the 'sometimes' condition due to being vulnerable to artifact hate perhaps, but I wasn't being serious about it. It's the number of decks in each category I'm concerned about, as well as the total number of tier 1 decks, rather than which specific decks they are, with the exception of that there needs to be a control deck that is actually good at policing combo decks, otherwise we'll never get combo decks that aren't so dominant that they wind up needing to be banned for screwing up the meta in the long run, and it is likely only a 'true' or 'pure' control that is partly blue utilitzing counterspells could pull that off as a combo deck police reliably enough.
The problem lies with Wizards not designing cards with Modern in mind. We just need to hope that in 10 years from now, there will be cards printed in Standard that can "maybe" fit into our T3 and T2 strategies. If not, the format will continue to be dominated by the same Top 5 decks; Affinity, Burn, BGx, Twin, and now Infect (infect has moved up in the world!)
Why doesn't Wizards ever think along the lines of "Hey, we should throw Modern Goblin decks a bone, why don't we reprint Goblin Ringleader or Goblin Matron?" The same should be applied to any T3 strategy at the very least. T2 decks can usually make it on their own, but most T3 decks really need some sort of consideration like that.
I don't play T1 decks. I have an Affinity deck, but I seldom play it. I just like the flavour and strategies of most of the T2 and T3 decks. I find them more fun to play with and build around. And I should say that I'm a tribal synergy kind of guy. I also have a Tron deck, and that deck is super fun and flavourful (to me).
The part about them wanting to play Legacy is actually pretty relevant.
Because that means that these people don't play Modern because the want to play Modern. They just play it because they cannot afford Legacy. That's an important distinction.
People like me play Modern because they want to play it. If I wanted to play Legacy then I would do that.
So if you keep that in mind you will see that 15.4% + 37.9% + 7.9% = 61.2% don't want Modern to just become Legacy and that is exactly what Wizards has done so far.
Im just a dude fighting the good fight
Everything you talk about in this post is what I dont want to happen to Modern. The cards you mention should never come into Modern. What you consider a 'blast' to play with, I find miserable to play against. Those cards can be played in a format, and that format is called Legacy. Try it out and stop trying to make Modern Legacy or Legacy lite.
Even if you look at it from your point of view its a 53%/47% split. Pretty close to a perfect division of the player base. I dont think 3% is enough for Wotc to move in a that direction. We clearly have 2 groups that want very different things for the format. In some cases there is a chasm between those groups.
@AvalonAurora, What I meant about 'true' control is draw go/prison style type control. Wotc has come out and said they have found those types of control are unfun and hurt formats. I agree there should be control in the format, but I dont think we will ever have 'true', or 'pure' control in Modern.
This really surprised me as well. Having Supreme Verdict, Sphinx's Revelation, and Detention Sphere all in the same set was surprising. But I think his point remains that WoTC doesn't want typical Control decks in Modern to be very strong. Until something is done that proves otherwise (swinging the pendulum), then I will personally always hold this view.
A few weeks ago at the Los Angeles Modern IQ, I played against a guy on Esper Control. I was playing Bogles. I won game 1 easily. Games 2 and 3 were long dragged out affairs, in which I finally won the match, 2-1. At the end of the match, my opponent was clearly frustrated that he didn't continue to draw answers for each threat that I had. He asked me if I expected to do well with Bogles (mind you, I was 5-1 at the time). I told him which matchups I felt good in, okay in, and which ones would take a lot of SB work. It seemed incredulous to him that I would expect to do well with Bogles, but I had to bite my lip about playing Control. I honestly feel that "how can someone do well with Control" in Modern? Now I know someone will bring up Shaun McLaren's UWR Counterburn or Kiki Control... Luckily the conversation was fairly cordial since my opponent rode to the tournament with a long time Magic friend who had moved to Las Vegas a few years ago, but I honestly couldn't see someone top 8ing a tournament with Control. Even Control lists that have a lot of burn or are more midrangey decks should have a tough time. Obviously Sukenik's 4 color Counterburn and Fabiano's Sultai Midrange surprised me with results. Control is just not the type of deck that WoTC wants in Modern and the days of Control mirrors are going to be outdated for the most part, outside of FNMs where players play their preference rather than what is doing well of course.
I know I missed this post and it was quite a while ago, but here's my 2 cents.
You also have to point out that aside from Scapeshift at 5% of the meta, the rest are all less than 3% each and that's being generous. Scapeshift actually should be played more. It is really a Tier 1 deck in my opinion, that a good player can do very well with. This is my opinion after playing the deck for 2-3 months myself, as well as testing against it in the past a bunch. Burn itself has a higher metagame percentage than all of those creature-less decks combined. Burn, mono red.
There really is no reason not to run Path to Exile. It will be so rarely dead that you can side those out in those matchups and not be hurt too badly for it. I run 3 Path to Exile in Bogles. Yesterday at a PPTQ, I faced the mirror. I won by doing Path to Exile on his Dryad Arbor. I have also learned to not take out the Path to Exile against nearly any deck (of course obviously it's so good vs. all of the Tier 1 decks).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Emphasis mine.
No, it's not an important distinction. Legacy will never be as popular or expensive as Modern (because of the reserved list), so the distinction is absolutely irrelevant. Let me rephrase the top two poll options for you:
Poll: Should the power level of Modern get closer to Legacy?
1) Yes and I would play Legacy if the world were a different place.
2) Yes, but I wouldn't play Legacy even if the world were a different place.
The world is what it is. Right now, 54.4% of the people taking the poll want a more powerful Modern.
Modern will always have a distinct feeling from Legacy, because cards like Brainstorm will never exist in this format. It's disingenuous to suggest that Modern "becomes Legacy" simply by being more powerful. It would take a lot more than a few powerful Modern-legal cards for Modern as a format to feel like Legacy.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
You fool yourself if you think that.
On this forum alone there are a ton of people, you among them, who keep mentioning Legacy when talking about Modern despite both formats having nothing to do with each other at all and keep mentioning cards that are only legal there like Counterspell, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Daze, Force of Will just to name a few cards that come up in such conversations. Right now there is discussion in the banlist thread about unbanning Glimpse of Nature and Dread Return to make Dredge and Elves a thing. The only logical conclusion is that these people want in fact Legacy V2 and nothing else.
If you seriously think that Wizards will ever cater to such wishes then I can't help you. Keep thinking and complaining about that. Nobody cares.
New cards from Standard are what will shape the future of Modern and not old cards from a long gone time.
They may reprint a few older cards they feel fine about like the Onslaught fetches, Reprisal or Explosive Vegetation but don't expect something big in that regard.
They probably want a Combo deck where players have to actively sideboard cards in order to beat rather than GBx just playing "powerful spells" and crushing Combo. But I agree with you that Wizards is probably never going to have that. They will never have something like when UR Storm was THE DECK to beat for 3 months in the former Extended.
I think the setup for Modern is fine. GBx has all of the tools that Legacy Jund has except Deathrite Shaman, Bloodbraid Elf and some lands. Bloodbraid Elf has the highest chance to be unbanned of any card if it is considered a creature. Now if Wizards considers Bloodbraid Elf a "spell" since it casts a spell that is put on the stack, then we will never see Bloodbraid Elf. As we can all see, Wizards considers DRS to be a spell or powerful planeswalker and those are no good in Modern.
I agree with you that we will never see a 5 Color Control deck or a Combo deck be "the decks to beat" in Modern. (although Wizards could just as easily nerf a card from Junk and the rise of Combo would be off-putting to many; which is why I personally feel that nothing in Junk is ban-able)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I would love to have more equipment that made up for stoneforge being powerful enough to be banned though (they said that stoneforge kept them from printing powerful equipment...and I havent seen any, as a player who wants good grindy equipment for faeries, that isnt a giant roadblock in the strategy, but knows Jitte is too powerful for modern)
I would love for elves to get a card like Soul of the Harvest at a cheaper mana cost with a more fragile body because removal should be able to slow down the combo in the same way they made storm have to play around removal (would be good as a 2/2 elf creature for 1GGG mana
I feel like getting to the lategame should be rewarded and wouldnt mind playing 3 mana for a counterspell, just one with a slight bonus for the mana, even Dissipate or Dissolve arent terrible, but three mana counterspells could use more variety in their benefit to casting them like Absorb and Undermine ...I mean Id like to cast bogardan hellkite in the lategame, but maybe counterspell isnt whats necessary. Control finishers are abundant, and 3 mana counterspells are fine, but 3 mana counterspells with upside that helps get you casting your big creature finisher or whatever
Id like more focus on job-type tribal assistance like what they started doing with warriors, because shamans is on the verge of being a respected aggro deck; it just got dicked around by the banlist.
I jsut want decks that exist, fringe non tier 1 and 2 decks, to get real support
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
I "keep mentioning Legacy" in the sense that I can use "Legacy" and "Modern" in the same sentence without freaking out like you do. Both Modern and Legacy are non-rotating formats, and it makes sense to compare the two, from the perspective of format health. You won't be able to avoid the comparisons to Legacy, so I suggest you deal with it.
I'm a Legacy Dredge player, and even I think Dread Return should stay banned in Modern.
Glimpse should stay banned. Dread Return should stay banned. Done.
No, there are other logical conclusions, such as people like deck diversity.
WotC isn't going to "cater to such wishes", because they're more interested in money than they are in providing an optimal play environment. They're a business. That's how this works. But just because it sells packs, doesn't mean the format is healthy. It just means that the changes to the game have opened up new markets for WotC.
People don't like complexity, and they don't like losing. WotC has taken clear steps to "fixing" both of those problems, specifically by nerfing control strategies, and pushing combat interaction. Again, the world is what it is. But don't pretend that the state of Modern today is the result of "good game design". Modern is the result of aggressive market research.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
No, it doesn't. Because the requisite would be that Legacy is healthy and that is heavily debatable.
Jeff Hoogland for example has been very vocal about the problems of Legacy and has quit the format entirely because of them.
The same cards seeing play in 80% of all decks is not what I consider healthy at all.
Quite a few people don't and that along with the card availability issues is the reason why Legacy is just a fraction of the Modern and Standard community.
Legacy is not the sacred cow like some people want to make you think it is.
1. Junk (13.3%)
2. UR Twin (12.3%)
3. Burn (10.4%)
4. Affinity (7.7%)
5. Infect (6.9%)
6. Abzan Liege (3.3%)
7. Merfolk (3.2%)
8. RG Tron (2.8%)
9. Scapeshift (2.5%)
10. Amulet Bloom (2.4%)
Funny I see 10 very different decks all with vastly different gameplans and colors here.
What was the argument again?
I hope you are not one of these people who hate on things that are or become "mainstream" because you sound like one.
The current game design is great. If you don't think it is then maybe play something like Heathstone or Yu-Gi-Oh.
So the power level can be whatever since it's meant to replace Legacy anyway. So I don't mind if it's a powerful format. But it needs to be everyone's eternal format. None of this well I'm only playing burn because it's all I can afford.
From the poll on this very thread, 39% of people would play Legacy if it were as popular/expensive as Modern. 39% is a huge number. Legacy's lack of accessibility isn't driven by color imbalance; it's driven by prices and availability.
If you have different reasons for playing Modern, that's fine. But look at the poll, and then back to what you just typed. You're just not right about players' format preferences.
The argument was that adding more playable decks to the format, increases the number of playable decks in the format. Tautology.
Games like Hearthstone or Yu-Gi-Oh, take the problems of Modern and make them worse. My alternative to the Modern format is Legacy.
The current game design is simpler than it used to be. Some people think that's great. Other people don't. Regardless of what people think, it sells more packs than it used to.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
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Wotc has said many times that they have found that control such as draw go and prison decks are unfun.
There is a huge difference between a playable control deck that is not dominate in Standard, a rotating format, and a T1 draw go/prison control deck in an non-rotating format. If the control deck gets too powerful in Standard they have banned it in the past, and they have been very careful to not have control be 'the' deck of Standard, just another competitive deck. What do you think would happen if Wotc allowed a draw go or prison type control deck to rule Modern for a few months? What do you think it would do to attendance numbers to not only large events, but local ones?
Control is a lot like Pod. If control gets a foot in the T1 level, its just going to continue to get better until it needs to be banned. Then we have a whole group of pissed off players because their pet deck got hit.
Last time I checked 61% is an even bigger number. That is the amount of people who would not play Legacy according to the poll irregardless of card prices or popularity.
Don't know what your argument is here.
Sure.
Decks that are conform with the current design philosophy of Wizards and are enabled or empowered by new Standard cards like Jeskai Ascendancy or Possibility Storm.
There is no need to go out your way and enable decks that are already playable in other formats. Modern is it's own thing.
And if it sells more packs than that is what you should be done. You give customers what they want. I know it's a difficult thing to understand for some people who have exotic tastes.
So you don't have a source. Although UB Control has been about as "pure control" as you can be in our current standard as well as UW draw go being a massive force before the last rotation.
So despite for the past 2 years (at least) having a very strong Draw Go deck around in standard still somehow still supports your interpretation of WOTC game design and not someone who thinks control should still be around if people want to play it.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
Again, huge difference between control in Standard and control in Modern. In Standard its not a dominate deck and the meta shifts so often its not a problem. In Modern we dont have those shifts. Having control be T1 would be dangerous. It would be like Pod and just get better with each release of cards. Control in Standard rarely wins events, but plays the spoiler in the event. People want a T1 control deck that has a shot at winning and having answers to all the other decks in the format.
As for the source, it came from Wotc mothership, but I cant find any thing on there since they changed the lay out. They said certain decks were unfun and those decks included true control (draw go prison) and LD to name a few. If someone that knows where the quote is, could they please post it.
Whats funny is I play control in Modern. I dont see the need for a catch all dominate control deck in the format. Control is viable in the format, just not in the form some want. They want to play the 'unfun' versions Wotc doesnt support.
Also, if pure control is playable in Standard for so many seasons? why cant the control players make it work like you wish in Modern?
From the poll, we know that 39% of people would play Legacy, if it were as expensive and popular as Modern. The poll doesn't ask how many people wouldn't play Legacy, the poll asks what should happen to the power level of Modern. You can't assume that the people who are happy with Modern's power level, wouldn't play Legacy. That's not how language, or statistics in general, works.
To an extent, I can agree with you here. Over time, WotC will add more decks to the format that conform with WotC's design philosophies. Those decks can be unique to Modern, although they don't have to be.
It's worth noting that deck redundancy across multiple formats shouldn't be a problem. There's a Modern version of Affinity, and a Legacy version of Affinity. There could be a Modern version of Dredge, and a Legacy version of Dredge. I don't understand the need for "format distinctness" to come from "distinct decks". The card pool alone makes the playable decks distinct - distinctness doesn't have to come from the core operation of the deck.
"Exotic tastes"? This is a stretch, even for you. If format popularity were the only thing that determined WotC's product line, then Modern wouldn't exist at all, because Standard is, was, and will be king forever.
Companies give customers "what they want" because it makes those companies more money. It's not because the majority of customers are somehow right, or know what's best for the sustainability of the business.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
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Plus why play YGO when Magic is quickly becoming it?