I looked around to see if there was any sort of stickied topic that might fit this, but I didn't find one.
With all of the recent articles about the state of Modern and knowing that Wizards almost did away with the Modern Pro Tour, I was interested in knowing the main reasons why people wanted a Modern PT. After all, there were many people complaining about either decisions WotC made "just for the sake of the Pro Tour" and accusations that "Pro players don't care about Modern". Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed watching the PT and I'm interested in following Modern more closely now than I was before (whether or not that actually translates to playing it is left to be seen).
So what, primarily, is your reason:
1. I just like watching people play Modern.
2. I would do better at a Modern PT than a Standard one, so my professional hopes and or dreams would prefer that.
3. Other.
Also, if you were somehow able to be guaranteed that the format would stay supported without a PT (say by a genie), would you rather have one or not?
I personally prefer modern over the other formats to watch because i find it the most interesting. I don't mind drafting myself, but watching it is SUPER boring to me. I also find draft performance far too dependent on what you got in packs and passed vs actual skill but thats another discussion. Standard can also be good but it really depends on the blocks (past two I haven't really been a fan of and haven't played standard because of it, but mirrodin I love so I'd watch those standards PT's). I feel the format, even if supported without a PT, would make the player base start to dwindle, because there would be no watching it, not as much of a drive by some players who would want to make it to the PT etc. All in all I just enjoy it more, probably because there are many more decks and combos to be found.
I still want a Modern PT every year. I think that PT Fate Reforged was not a great show because the bannings have left us with a little bit of a dry metagame. But I love Modern, so hopefully the format will evolve back into something exciting either through ban list or new set releases and we'll have a great one next time.
Pro Tour Born of the Gods was amazing, got me hooked on Modern and on Magic in general.
I think if someone is going to call themselves a pro in Magic, they should have to do well at more then just Standard and Limited. Modern seems to be the logical choice because Wotc is pushing it hard. There is the PT and GP for Standard and Limited, Eternal weekend for Legacy and Vintage, the pros should have to play Modern some during the year, like it or not.
Also the support is good for the format. It gets new eyes on decks and interactions. The bad part is Wotc seems to be using the high end game to engineer the format. The majority of people watching the PTs will never play at that level of the game. The format should be for all levels, not just the high end, but that should go for all formats in general.
I also dont think the state of Modern is in a bad place. The people who play it the most, for the most part, are happy with the format. Its only a small vocal minority that seems to have a problem with the format. Some of the pros are in that small vocal minority and they have the ability to write articles on main stream sites to sway the masses into thinking there is something wrong with the format.
I also dont think the state of Modern is in a bad place. The people who play it the most, for the most part, are happy with the format. Its only a small vocal minority that seems to have a problem with the format. Some of the pros are in that small vocal minority and they have the ability to write articles on main stream sites to sway the masses into thinking there is something wrong with the format.
The old baseless "vocal minority" credit to disclaim. It's clear that a lot of people are upset with the liberal ban list which makes the format go back and fourth between emerging decks and Twin/Rock/Burn. Nothing bad can come from discussing how modern should change.
Because having nothing but Standard Pro Tours is horribly boring.
This is my primary reason. Modern's the only way we're ever going to get a Pro Tour showcasing more than the last 3 sets.
Also, I think time has shown that people who invest time and test for the format really do a lot better than people who don't, and that makes me enjoy it even more. People talk all the time about people choosing decks last-minute and doing well, but the people who do well in Modern are the people who consistently play it (Lee Shi Tian, Karsten, Dickmann, etc). Not to restart the ongoing debate in the PV thread, but I really feel that pros think they can cram 2 weeks of testing and think they can collectively come up with the "best 75," and that really comes back to bite them. Modern's a format that cares more about you knowing your opponents' decks than your own, and a lot of players just don't take enough time to familiarize themselves with the format as a whole.
I think if I was a pro I may be annoyed that I'd be forced into this whole new deep realm of Magic by WotC, but I'm a viewer and not a pro. Just like I don't expect them to champion my viewpoints, I don't feel any expectation to champion theirs. As a viewer, I want to see Modern played at the highest of levels, and a Pro Tour is the perfect place to showcase that (as well as WotC's commitment to the format).
If the Pro Tour is supposed to be about the old guard and basically doing a favor for the players in the Players' Club (as opposed to all those qualified in the event) by holding a $40k event, then maybe 4 Standard PTs are the way to go. But if your goal is to showcase Magic's history and to create a great viewing spectacle, then I think holding at least 1 Modern PT/year is a great way of doing so.
Also, the fact that WotC has to keep the banlist more updated due to the PT is a good thing. Having broken cards in the format and "hoping that no one notices the broken decks" is worse than forcing WotC to make the hard bannings due to that PT's existence.
I think modern decks are often a lot more interesting than standard decks (I'd watch some of Frank Lepore's modern videos to get a sense - he almost always chooses cool decks). So I'd much prefer watching them on average as compared to standard.
That said, I actually think it might be better NOT to have a format shake up before the modern pro tours, as it seems like with a clearer format pros would be better positioned to bring rogue/next leveled decks, rather than feeling like they have to default to the 'safe' decks. But maybe I'm wrong.
Personally, I think it is the most interesting competitive format and that's what makes me want to watch it. If there were no PT for Modern, watching competitive MtG would be less fun for me.
I do have strong objections to the handling of the banlist. Representation should not be the pure reasoning for bans. The card has to actually warp the format like Stoneforge Mystic or JTMS did when they were in Standard to warrant a ban (and they were late bans that were relatively hollow when they were in Standard...). I think Modern has a huge wealth of viable archetypes and I hate to see popular ones get banned just for being popular. It's also one of the things that makes me most afraid to jump into the format. What happens when I drop a grand on a deck and my key piece gets banned?
I don't, it has done nothing good for modern (except maybe popularising blue moon and tarmotwin), the coverage is awful, the metas are boring and it creates this crazy ban hype amongst wizards.
To be honest I'd rather SCG pick up more modern opens so I could watch some ok level modern with really good coverage.
I also dont think the state of Modern is in a bad place. The people who play it the most, for the most part, are happy with the format. Its only a small vocal minority that seems to have a problem with the format. Some of the pros are in that small vocal minority and they have the ability to write articles on main stream sites to sway the masses into thinking there is something wrong with the format.
The old baseless "vocal minority" credit to disclaim. It's clear that a lot of people are upset with the liberal ban list which makes the format go back and fourth between emerging decks and Twin/Rock/Burn. Nothing bad can come from discussing how modern should change.
I play Modern weekly at a few different LGS and have turn outs form 20-50 players depending the day and location and such. I have played in a couple Modern PPTQs with 40-60 players, and I have heard zero complaining about the format. I have heard the exact opposite. The players are happy Wotc is treating Modern different, they like the bannings. Really the only place I heard complaining about Modern is either from a pro who writes an article or on a forum like this.
That all being said, it seems everyone, including the pros, forget that not everyone shares their opinion of the format. If someone likes or dislikes the format, they feel everyone feels the same, which is not true. There are so many ideas about what the format should be to how it should be handled, there is no way everyone is going ot be 100% happy about the format, ever.
I don't, it has done nothing good for modern (except maybe popularising blue moon and tarmotwin), the coverage is awful, the metas are boring and it creates this crazy ban hype amongst wizards.
To be honest I'd rather SCG pick up more modern opens so I could watch some ok level modern with really good coverage.
This.
At least the guys over at SCG have announcers that are knowledgeable about nonrotating formats and won't make a fool of themselves when making play calls. That said Modern is better off an SCG/GP format.
I would be okay with them switching it to Legacy(especially if that means better handling of the banlist of modern), but I'm certainly not interested in even more Standard.
I would be okay with them switching it to Legacy(especially if that means better handling of the banlist of modern), but I'm certainly not interested in even more Standard.
The problem with Legacy is that they want the PT to garner interest in the game. It has people who explain obvious things as commentators because they want to support newer players. Those players aren't going to get into Legacy, and in fact, I suspect a Legacy PT would do very little, if anything, to get more players into Legacy. At the cost to get into Legacy, players usually don't make the decision lightly and will probably be making the decision based on other factors.
Anyways, I like a Modern PT for:
1. It's always fun as a PT format because it's a lot more important than a GP.
2. Pros prepare for it. At a GP level you might just take whatever deck you've been playing. You might just grab your stock Affinity list, test it a little bit, and show up to the GP. With the PT, people will prepare and find new decks. We saw Infect come about last time, we've seen people like Levy trying Pox Loam, among other countless innovations.
3. It's an event that everyone goes to. At GPs you get a lot of variance on skill level because a lot of pros don't go. When it's a 40k prize, everyone shows up. It makes for a much more enjoyable event to watch.
4. And of course, it guarantees support from Wizards.
I don't, it has done nothing good for modern (except maybe popularising blue moon and tarmotwin), the coverage is awful, the metas are boring and it creates this crazy ban hype amongst wizards.
To be honest I'd rather SCG pick up more modern opens so I could watch some ok level modern with really good coverage.
In my heart I want PTs of various formats because I'd like to see pros brew and play them all. But unfortunately having seen what the PT does to Modern over the last couple years, I agree with Nixernator.
The same reason I like watching all star games as well as the normal games/playoffs. PTs are necessarily about "the best of the best dunking each other with skill" like some chess game. Its also entertainment. I mean we live in a world where people make a career outta playing minecraft.
Alot of the time people love modern and root for archetypes regardless of representation. I'm sure a lot of people like professional twin players, but I'm sure more people are cheering for twin because its like their football team.
and at the end of the day, I wanna watch my hometeam go out there and compete.
I would be okay with them switching it to Legacy(especially if that means better handling of the banlist of modern), but I'm certainly not interested in even more Standard.
The problem with Legacy is that they want the PT to garner interest in the game. It has people who explain obvious things as commentators because they want to support newer players. Those players aren't going to get into Legacy, and in fact, I suspect a Legacy PT would do very little, if anything, to get more players into Legacy. At the cost to get into Legacy, players usually don't make the decision lightly and will probably be making the decision based on other factors.
Another one of the major points detracting from a Legacy PT (and one WotC commonly cites) is simply card availability in certain markets. Not prices, flat-out availability. If you have a South American PT or a PT in certain parts of Europe/Asia, it's going to be impossible to find a last-minute Moat or Tabernacle for almost any price.
The same reason I like watching all star games as well as the normal games/playoffs. PTs are necessarily about "the best of the best dunking each other with skill" like some chess game. Its also entertainment. I mean we live in a world where people make a career outta playing minecraft.
Alot of the time people love modern and root for archetypes regardless of representation. I'm sure a lot of people like professional twin players, but I'm sure more people are cheering for twin because its like their football team.
and at the end of the day, I wanna watch my hometeam go out there and compete.
That's actually a pretty good point. I found myself cheering more for specific decks than players in the last top 8.
1. I like to watch Modern. It's my favorite format. I'll watch a little Standard coverage, especially when I like the current Standard (like now), but I always watch any Modern that I can. This is the main reason: I just want to watch high-level play of my favorite format.
2. I think it helps Modern, as a format. Related to #1 above, I want Modern to be popular. Have a Modern PT might help bring new players to the format, which is what Modern needs to stay a viable and supported format. As someone else said, without a PT, your format may as well not exist (looking at you, Legacy). I think a lot of the blowback they got from cancelling the Modern PT was people who were worried that the cancellation was a step toward decreased support of Modern.
2b. I think the PT coverage is fine. Lots of people complain about it, but I feel they do a good job of presenting the game in a way that's understandable to new and prospective players -- which is their goal, after all. And besides, if you're Johnny Magic already, then you don't really need LSV to explain the lines of play to you anyways, now do you?
3. Having the pros play the format can lead to innovation. Although, with the PVDDR blowup this week, it's become clear that this is a double-edge sword; the pros can have very different criteria for what constitutes a good format, as compared to your average player.
Modern is by far my favorite format, and while GPs are cool, having Pros try to seriously play it is really cool and inspiring to watch. A few innovate, others play what ever the flavor of the month is, and still others grind one deck they enjoy. It's always interesting to see what the Pros play, even though a lot of pros don't have great things to say about modern.
With all of the recent articles about the state of Modern and knowing that Wizards almost did away with the Modern Pro Tour, I was interested in knowing the main reasons why people wanted a Modern PT. After all, there were many people complaining about either decisions WotC made "just for the sake of the Pro Tour" and accusations that "Pro players don't care about Modern". Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed watching the PT and I'm interested in following Modern more closely now than I was before (whether or not that actually translates to playing it is left to be seen).
So what, primarily, is your reason:
1. I just like watching people play Modern.
2. I would do better at a Modern PT than a Standard one, so my professional hopes and or dreams would prefer that.
3. Other.
Also, if you were somehow able to be guaranteed that the format would stay supported without a PT (say by a genie), would you rather have one or not?
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles
Pro Tour Born of the Gods was amazing, got me hooked on Modern and on Magic in general.
Also the support is good for the format. It gets new eyes on decks and interactions. The bad part is Wotc seems to be using the high end game to engineer the format. The majority of people watching the PTs will never play at that level of the game. The format should be for all levels, not just the high end, but that should go for all formats in general.
I also dont think the state of Modern is in a bad place. The people who play it the most, for the most part, are happy with the format. Its only a small vocal minority that seems to have a problem with the format. Some of the pros are in that small vocal minority and they have the ability to write articles on main stream sites to sway the masses into thinking there is something wrong with the format.
The old baseless "vocal minority" credit to disclaim. It's clear that a lot of people are upset with the liberal ban list which makes the format go back and fourth between emerging decks and Twin/Rock/Burn. Nothing bad can come from discussing how modern should change.
Also, I think time has shown that people who invest time and test for the format really do a lot better than people who don't, and that makes me enjoy it even more. People talk all the time about people choosing decks last-minute and doing well, but the people who do well in Modern are the people who consistently play it (Lee Shi Tian, Karsten, Dickmann, etc). Not to restart the ongoing debate in the PV thread, but I really feel that pros think they can cram 2 weeks of testing and think they can collectively come up with the "best 75," and that really comes back to bite them. Modern's a format that cares more about you knowing your opponents' decks than your own, and a lot of players just don't take enough time to familiarize themselves with the format as a whole.
I think if I was a pro I may be annoyed that I'd be forced into this whole new deep realm of Magic by WotC, but I'm a viewer and not a pro. Just like I don't expect them to champion my viewpoints, I don't feel any expectation to champion theirs. As a viewer, I want to see Modern played at the highest of levels, and a Pro Tour is the perfect place to showcase that (as well as WotC's commitment to the format).
If the Pro Tour is supposed to be about the old guard and basically doing a favor for the players in the Players' Club (as opposed to all those qualified in the event) by holding a $40k event, then maybe 4 Standard PTs are the way to go. But if your goal is to showcase Magic's history and to create a great viewing spectacle, then I think holding at least 1 Modern PT/year is a great way of doing so.
Also, the fact that WotC has to keep the banlist more updated due to the PT is a good thing. Having broken cards in the format and "hoping that no one notices the broken decks" is worse than forcing WotC to make the hard bannings due to that PT's existence.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
That said, I actually think it might be better NOT to have a format shake up before the modern pro tours, as it seems like with a clearer format pros would be better positioned to bring rogue/next leveled decks, rather than feeling like they have to default to the 'safe' decks. But maybe I'm wrong.
I do have strong objections to the handling of the banlist. Representation should not be the pure reasoning for bans. The card has to actually warp the format like Stoneforge Mystic or JTMS did when they were in Standard to warrant a ban (and they were late bans that were relatively hollow when they were in Standard...). I think Modern has a huge wealth of viable archetypes and I hate to see popular ones get banned just for being popular. It's also one of the things that makes me most afraid to jump into the format. What happens when I drop a grand on a deck and my key piece gets banned?
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
To be honest I'd rather SCG pick up more modern opens so I could watch some ok level modern with really good coverage.
I play Modern weekly at a few different LGS and have turn outs form 20-50 players depending the day and location and such. I have played in a couple Modern PPTQs with 40-60 players, and I have heard zero complaining about the format. I have heard the exact opposite. The players are happy Wotc is treating Modern different, they like the bannings. Really the only place I heard complaining about Modern is either from a pro who writes an article or on a forum like this.
That all being said, it seems everyone, including the pros, forget that not everyone shares their opinion of the format. If someone likes or dislikes the format, they feel everyone feels the same, which is not true. There are so many ideas about what the format should be to how it should be handled, there is no way everyone is going ot be 100% happy about the format, ever.
This.
At least the guys over at SCG have announcers that are knowledgeable about nonrotating formats and won't make a fool of themselves when making play calls. That said Modern is better off an SCG/GP format.
RDW
Zoo
CoCo Elves
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Anyways, I like a Modern PT for:
1. It's always fun as a PT format because it's a lot more important than a GP.
2. Pros prepare for it. At a GP level you might just take whatever deck you've been playing. You might just grab your stock Affinity list, test it a little bit, and show up to the GP. With the PT, people will prepare and find new decks. We saw Infect come about last time, we've seen people like Levy trying Pox Loam, among other countless innovations.
3. It's an event that everyone goes to. At GPs you get a lot of variance on skill level because a lot of pros don't go. When it's a 40k prize, everyone shows up. It makes for a much more enjoyable event to watch.
4. And of course, it guarantees support from Wizards.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Alot of the time people love modern and root for archetypes regardless of representation. I'm sure a lot of people like professional twin players, but I'm sure more people are cheering for twin because its like their football team.
and at the end of the day, I wanna watch my hometeam go out there and compete.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
That's actually a pretty good point. I found myself cheering more for specific decks than players in the last top 8.
2. I think it helps Modern, as a format. Related to #1 above, I want Modern to be popular. Have a Modern PT might help bring new players to the format, which is what Modern needs to stay a viable and supported format. As someone else said, without a PT, your format may as well not exist (looking at you, Legacy). I think a lot of the blowback they got from cancelling the Modern PT was people who were worried that the cancellation was a step toward decreased support of Modern.
2b. I think the PT coverage is fine. Lots of people complain about it, but I feel they do a good job of presenting the game in a way that's understandable to new and prospective players -- which is their goal, after all. And besides, if you're Johnny Magic already, then you don't really need LSV to explain the lines of play to you anyways, now do you?
3. Having the pros play the format can lead to innovation. Although, with the PVDDR blowup this week, it's become clear that this is a double-edge sword; the pros can have very different criteria for what constitutes a good format, as compared to your average player.
Modern: GW Hatebears/midrange, WGU Knightfall/evolution midrange stuff
Standard: nope
Legacy: W Death & Taxes
EDH (not Commander!): W Avacyn, Angel of Hope, GR Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, WGB Anafenza, the Foremost, WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator
Also, standard is just really, really boring.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Cheeri0sXWU
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