I like that casting him on turn 2 is a possibility with a fetch land and a Thought Scour. His discounted body, even by Modern standards, combined with the value of his activated ability will surely see him getting a look somewhere. Even G/B rock wouldn't find trouble in landing him early.
In the grixis twin deck I'm running I find I can get Tasigur out on turn 3 all the time, without having thought scour. A couple fetch and a serum visions is all it takes.
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I've played with both Tasigur and the monkies (nice band name) quite a bit since I really hoped WotC managed to print at least one good delve spell, Tasigur is definitely better but not to a point where it would validate all this hype, especially since noone cared (and still doesn't) about Mandrills. The ability definitely isn't irrelevant, probably even good in some situations, but paying four mana for one card off the bad end of a fact or fiction doesn't have me jumping in my seat.
As the final nail in the coffin I don't think I'd even want goyf 5-6. We've had plenty of those for a long time, Putrid Leech, Skinshifter, that guy who gets +1/+1 counters for nongreen spells... And for UB decks without green, with esper I'd go bigger, with grixis I'd go bigger, with UB I'd splash green for goyf.
I've played with both Tasigur and the monkies (nice band name) quite a bit since I really hoped WotC managed to print at least one good delve spell, Tasigur is definitely better but not to a point where it would validate all this hype, especially since noone cared (and still doesn't) about Mandrills. The ability definitely isn't irrelevant, probably even good in some situations, but paying four mana for one card off the bad end of a fact or fiction doesn't have me jumping in my seat.
As the final nail in the coffin I don't think I'd even want goyf 5-6. We've had plenty of those for a long time, Putrid Leech, Skinshifter, that guy who gets +1/+1 counters for nongreen spells... And for UB decks without green, with esper I'd go bigger, with grixis I'd go bigger, with UB I'd splash green for goyf.
The problem is that with almost every card you mention there's a downside. Monkey has a smaller butt compared to rhino and goyf, putrid leech costs life, is two colors, and also has a small butt, skinshifter gets bolted in response to activation, and quirion dryad gets bolted before it can get larger. Tasigur has none of those issues, can cost just B and has an ability that can very much help out in a grindy matchup. I'm not saying he's the second coming or anything, just that he's a good card that's worth consideration, especially compared to the ones you listed. Also don't forget he dodges abrupt decay.
The hype IS ridiculous, but the final role Tasigur will serve is as a 'bad' goyf 5-6. The ability is only upside (and honestly relevant in modern), he has a comparable body, and it doesn't take that much work to put him in play for as cheap or cheaper than goyf.
The real thing that makes it a big deal is that decks don't need to play green to have at least a comparable body--something not really all that possible before. You may go bigger in other shards, but many don't need to--think of this card as a weakness mitigating card for a lot of strategies.
I've played with both Tasigur and the monkies (nice band name) quite a bit since I really hoped WotC managed to print at least one good delve spell, Tasigur is definitely better but not to a point where it would validate all this hype, especially since noone cared (and still doesn't) about Mandrills. The ability definitely isn't irrelevant, probably even good in some situations, but paying four mana for one card off the bad end of a fact or fiction doesn't have me jumping in my seat.
As the final nail in the coffin I don't think I'd even want goyf 5-6. We've had plenty of those for a long time, Putrid Leech, Skinshifter, that guy who gets +1/+1 counters for nongreen spells... And for UB decks without green, with esper I'd go bigger, with grixis I'd go bigger, with UB I'd splash green for goyf.
Mandrils can't block the average Goyf or Siege Rhino. Tas can. That alone makes Tas better in a metagame that has a ton of Junk and Goyf. This is also relevant in the Affinity matchup, where Tas can't just be blown apart by a Galvanic Blast but Mandrils can.
Also, if you don't want Goyf 5-6, then you and I are playing a different format. I'd take Goyfs 5-12 if they would let me.
I do agree that Tas is overhyped. But the reaction to that should not be to underhype and undervalue him.
I just don't see how he is better than Hooting Mandrills. Is one toughness and a lousy ability really THAT much better than Trample?
Yes, it is. It's the difference between tanking a rhino and most goyfs or dying to them. And it's a huge difference.
Also being black instead of green helps him to find home on decks that don't run green.
I've played with both Tasigur and the monkies (nice band name) quite a bit since I really hoped WotC managed to print at least one good delve spell, Tasigur is definitely better but not to a point where it would validate all this hype, especially since noone cared (and still doesn't) about Mandrills. The ability definitely isn't irrelevant, probably even good in some situations, but paying four mana for one card off the bad end of a fact or fiction doesn't have me jumping in my seat.
As the final nail in the coffin I don't think I'd even want goyf 5-6. We've had plenty of those for a long time, Putrid Leech, Skinshifter, that guy who gets +1/+1 counters for nongreen spells... And for UB decks without green, with esper I'd go bigger, with grixis I'd go bigger, with UB I'd splash green for goyf.
Hey man, I care about Mandrills.
Tasigur's main downside is that the deck that wants Tarmogoyf doesn't necessarily want Black. Delver variants, for instance, will have a harder time picking him up successfully. Mandrills lets you run the full set of Lhurgoyfs before you do anything else.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Mandrils can't block the average Goyf or Siege Rhino. Tas can. That alone makes Tas better in a metagame that has a ton of Junk and Goyf. This is also relevant in the Affinity matchup, where Tas can't just be blown apart by a Galvanic Blast but Mandrils can.
Also, if you don't want Goyf 5-6, then you and I are playing a different format. I'd take Goyfs 5-12 if they would let me.
I do agree that Tas is overhyped. But the reaction to that should not be to underhype and undervalue him.
IMO there is a point where you have enough stompy boots and would rather have some cards that get those stompy boots where they are supposed to go. That being said, boot 5 to 6 might be welcome, I'm not sure. Also, to clarify again, I'm in no way saying Tasigur is bad; "just another goyf" is still a freakin goyf, and it is by far the best card for modern that has come out of FTR (not that there is any competition).
I've played with both Tasigur and the monkies (nice band name) quite a bit since I really hoped WotC managed to print at least one good delve spell, Tasigur is definitely better but not to a point where it would validate all this hype, especially since noone cared (and still doesn't) about Mandrills. The ability definitely isn't irrelevant, probably even good in some situations, but paying four mana for one card off the bad end of a fact or fiction doesn't have me jumping in my seat.
As the final nail in the coffin I don't think I'd even want goyf 5-6. We've had plenty of those for a long time, Putrid Leech, Skinshifter, that guy who gets +1/+1 counters for nongreen spells... And for UB decks without green, with esper I'd go bigger, with grixis I'd go bigger, with UB I'd splash green for goyf.
Hey man, I care about Mandrills.
Tasigur's main downside is that the deck that wants Tarmogoyf doesn't necessarily want Black. Delver variants, for instance, will have a harder time picking him up successfully. Mandrills lets you run the full set of Lhurgoyfs before you do anything else.
I think if you had a goyf variant in green and black people would rather play black any day. The only reason for splashing green in modern now, other than decks like infect and bloom, is for goyf and possibly ancient grudge. Black offers much more.
Oh, of course. Obviously Mandrills would never slot into something like BGx since Tas is just a better creature for the cost. But I'm seeing people suggest things like Grixis Delver around the board and it seems fundamentally worse to me than RUG for the reasons I mentioned.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I think if you had a goyf variant in green and black people would rather play black any day. The only reason for splashing green in modern now, other than decks like infect and bloom, is for goyf and possibly ancient grudge. Black offers much more.
Abrupt Decay and many others would like to have a word with you.
I think if you had a goyf variant in green and black people would rather play black any day. The only reason for splashing green in modern now, other than decks like infect and bloom, is for goyf and possibly ancient grudge. Black offers much more.
Abrupt Decay and many others would like to have a word with you.
Which clearly costs black mana as well. Which is often used to do other things like thoughtseize while the green is just used as a secondary color for stuff like pulse and for goyf.
I think if you had a goyf variant in green and black people would rather play black any day. The only reason for splashing green in modern now, other than decks like infect and bloom, is for goyf and possibly ancient grudge. Black offers much more.
Abrupt Decay and many others would like to have a word with you.
Which clearly costs black mana as well. Which is often used to do other things like thoughtseize while the green is just used as a secondary color for stuff like pulse and for goyf.
ooze?
at the end, B is the disruption/removal and G the beating/wincon.
sure black has more cards in maindeck (choke FTW), but saying that GBx is black with tarmo is just wrong
I don't think anyone's saying that Tasigur is better at being Goyf than Goyf. Goyf will always be Goyf 1-4.
The thing is Tasigur gives decks that don't necessarily even want Goyf 1-4 a fat, cheap beater with utility they might care about. Splintertwin is a deck where people are at least considering Grixis Twin (no clue if its good), but in that deck, Tasigur might be better suited than Goyf. They don't need THE beater, like Zoo might, they just need A beater. And Tasigur is a good one for the cost and offers additional utility while also stonewalling most major threats in the format. Tasigur, in other words, is most valuable to decks whose main plan is something else.
In 4c Gifts, you can't just play 1 Goyf in a control shell. It's not good enough. If you're on the midrange plan, you need to commit to make it effective. However, I feel comfortable playing 1 Tasigur because it complements my control strategy while still giving me a good body.
Tasigur adds another dimension to control decks or control-combo decks, giving them a decent clock, a decent blocker, a source of card advantage, in a package that will probably cost you 1 mana to cast.
Midrange will only run him if he's better than what they already have. His ability is slow and midrange taps out more often than control. Midrange in modern also means BGx so Tarmogoyf competes with Tasigur as a comparable statball with no abilities and BGx already has a good source of card adv in Bob.
There is also something to be said for diversifying your threats. 4 Goyf and a Tasigur might be better than 5 Goyfs - but bigger is a form of better and thats the trade off between Goyf and Tasigur.
Tasigur's ability seems bad until you build your deck in a way where you can control what you get back. Also unlike Goyf he doesn't get blown out by graveyard hate, he is always a 4/5. I'm not sure what people aren't getting when making the comparison to Mandrills. In optimizing a deck for a particular metagame, a point of power or toughness can be completely massive in terms of playability. Is mandrills a bad card? No, but it's not where the metagame actually is right now.
Really the biggest downside is it is legendary. Otherwise the card is very good at varying stages of the game - cast early, he's probably the biggest thing out there. Later on he provides inevitability with recursion and fuels other Delve spells.
Tasigur's ability seems bad until you build your deck in a way where you can control what you get back. Also unlike Goyf he doesn't get blown out by graveyard hate, he is always a 4/5. I'm not sure what people aren't getting when making the comparison to Mandrills. In optimizing a deck for a particular metagame, a point of power or toughness can be completely massive in terms of playability. Is mandrills a bad card? No, but it's not where the metagame actually is right now.
Really the biggest downside is it is legendary. Otherwise the card is very good at varying stages of the game - cast early, he's probably the biggest thing out there. Later on he provides inevitability with recursion and fuels other Delve spells.
I'm saying it will never be a question of Tasigur or Mandrills.
Who plays Tasigur? Decks that want a very cheap beater. Even if Control decks adopt him, it's because they want a very efficient beater (see: RUG Twin). Who's the best cheap beater? Tarmogoyf. For the sake of discussion, we'll call all big beaters Goyfs.
Obviously the Black deck that wants Goyfs wants some number of Tasigur. Most of the Black decks that want Goyfs are also Green, so they already have a full set of Tarmogoyf. In fact, most of the decks that want Goyfs already run a set of him (even Goyf-splash decks like RUG Twin), and most Tarmogoyf decks would like additional Goyfs (Goyf-splash decks like RUG Twin being the exception). But there are some decks that want Goyfs that don't naturally run Black (i.e. Delver), and for those decks, Mandrills is better - they're already in Green, and Mandrills provides something they need, even if the body isn't as good as Tas's and they don't have a utility effect.
Yes, in a vacuum, a 4/5 that draws cards for 6 is better than a 4/4 with Trample for 6. But there is no vacuum. We know the format. Everything is contextual.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Even if Control decks adopt him, it's because they want a very efficient beater (see: RUG Twin). Who's the best cheap beater? Tarmogoyf.
I agree with most of what you're saying. Just gonna reiterate my two cents that control decks don't necessarily want the best cheap beater because they're control decks. Their plan A isn't beating in the first place. That leaves room for slightly non-optimal beaters that bring utility, especially for late game grinds. The question then is how much utility do you need to justify playing a slightly smaller Tarmogoyf.
I'm not sure Tasigur's utility brings much to control. It's like a Whispers of the Muse your opponent controls. And if you are playing control, I bet your opponent won't give you one of your control cards back to help you maintain your position if he/she can avoid it. Since neither he nor Goyf have any defense against removal other than size, it is relevant that 'Gofys get bigger so seem better as beaters.
To cast Tasigur at cheap requires him to remove potential options for his graveyard recursion ability just to play him. Here's where play skill could make a difference, as you could hedge your bets some by removing the stuff in the 'yard you don't want to cast him while saving your prize card you'd like. Obviously, this makes it more likely you might get something you want with his ability, but only if you turn over something your opponent considers worse. But that probably means you'd rather of had that instead. Ultimately what I am saying is you probably will most times not get what you want with Tasigur or what is best. So it is like a weakened card draw of sorts that can't draw land.
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It kind of does. It's not good, but if you're just messing around, Crystal Ball lets you control what your top 2 cards are, to some extent.
Splintertwin (?)
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Honestly I think the thing that makes Tasigur look so much better than Mandrills is the mythic symbol in the corner
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
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btw its second ability is really strong in grindy games, if it doesnt get removed, when i casted him i won in the most of cases
Have you played with him? He's not worlds better than the Monkies, but his ability isn't "lousy". It's actually pretty relevant.
His toughness matters lots too IMO: he can fend off normal Goyfs/Rhinos/Thrun, the Monkies can't.
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As the final nail in the coffin I don't think I'd even want goyf 5-6. We've had plenty of those for a long time, Putrid Leech, Skinshifter, that guy who gets +1/+1 counters for nongreen spells... And for UB decks without green, with esper I'd go bigger, with grixis I'd go bigger, with UB I'd splash green for goyf.
The problem is that with almost every card you mention there's a downside. Monkey has a smaller butt compared to rhino and goyf, putrid leech costs life, is two colors, and also has a small butt, skinshifter gets bolted in response to activation, and quirion dryad gets bolted before it can get larger. Tasigur has none of those issues, can cost just B and has an ability that can very much help out in a grindy matchup. I'm not saying he's the second coming or anything, just that he's a good card that's worth consideration, especially compared to the ones you listed. Also don't forget he dodges abrupt decay.
The real thing that makes it a big deal is that decks don't need to play green to have at least a comparable body--something not really all that possible before. You may go bigger in other shards, but many don't need to--think of this card as a weakness mitigating card for a lot of strategies.
Also all those other 'goyfs' you mentioned suck.
Mandrils can't block the average Goyf or Siege Rhino. Tas can. That alone makes Tas better in a metagame that has a ton of Junk and Goyf. This is also relevant in the Affinity matchup, where Tas can't just be blown apart by a Galvanic Blast but Mandrils can.
Also, if you don't want Goyf 5-6, then you and I are playing a different format. I'd take Goyfs 5-12 if they would let me.
I do agree that Tas is overhyped. But the reaction to that should not be to underhype and undervalue him.
Also being black instead of green helps him to find home on decks that don't run green.
Tasigur's main downside is that the deck that wants Tarmogoyf doesn't necessarily want Black. Delver variants, for instance, will have a harder time picking him up successfully. Mandrills lets you run the full set of Lhurgoyfs before you do anything else.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
IMO there is a point where you have enough stompy boots and would rather have some cards that get those stompy boots where they are supposed to go. That being said, boot 5 to 6 might be welcome, I'm not sure. Also, to clarify again, I'm in no way saying Tasigur is bad; "just another goyf" is still a freakin goyf, and it is by far the best card for modern that has come out of FTR (not that there is any competition).
I think if you had a goyf variant in green and black people would rather play black any day. The only reason for splashing green in modern now, other than decks like infect and bloom, is for goyf and possibly ancient grudge. Black offers much more.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Abrupt Decay and many others would like to have a word with you.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
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#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Which clearly costs black mana as well. Which is often used to do other things like thoughtseize while the green is just used as a secondary color for stuff like pulse and for goyf.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
ooze?
at the end, B is the disruption/removal and G the beating/wincon.
sure black has more cards in maindeck (choke FTW), but saying that GBx is black with tarmo is just wrong
The thing is Tasigur gives decks that don't necessarily even want Goyf 1-4 a fat, cheap beater with utility they might care about. Splintertwin is a deck where people are at least considering Grixis Twin (no clue if its good), but in that deck, Tasigur might be better suited than Goyf. They don't need THE beater, like Zoo might, they just need A beater. And Tasigur is a good one for the cost and offers additional utility while also stonewalling most major threats in the format. Tasigur, in other words, is most valuable to decks whose main plan is something else.
In 4c Gifts, you can't just play 1 Goyf in a control shell. It's not good enough. If you're on the midrange plan, you need to commit to make it effective. However, I feel comfortable playing 1 Tasigur because it complements my control strategy while still giving me a good body.
Tasigur adds another dimension to control decks or control-combo decks, giving them a decent clock, a decent blocker, a source of card advantage, in a package that will probably cost you 1 mana to cast.
Midrange will only run him if he's better than what they already have. His ability is slow and midrange taps out more often than control. Midrange in modern also means BGx so Tarmogoyf competes with Tasigur as a comparable statball with no abilities and BGx already has a good source of card adv in Bob.
There is also something to be said for diversifying your threats. 4 Goyf and a Tasigur might be better than 5 Goyfs - but bigger is a form of better and thats the trade off between Goyf and Tasigur.
Splintertwin (?)
Really the biggest downside is it is legendary. Otherwise the card is very good at varying stages of the game - cast early, he's probably the biggest thing out there. Later on he provides inevitability with recursion and fuels other Delve spells.
Who plays Tasigur? Decks that want a very cheap beater. Even if Control decks adopt him, it's because they want a very efficient beater (see: RUG Twin). Who's the best cheap beater? Tarmogoyf. For the sake of discussion, we'll call all big beaters Goyfs.
Obviously the Black deck that wants Goyfs wants some number of Tasigur. Most of the Black decks that want Goyfs are also Green, so they already have a full set of Tarmogoyf. In fact, most of the decks that want Goyfs already run a set of him (even Goyf-splash decks like RUG Twin), and most Tarmogoyf decks would like additional Goyfs (Goyf-splash decks like RUG Twin being the exception). But there are some decks that want Goyfs that don't naturally run Black (i.e. Delver), and for those decks, Mandrills is better - they're already in Green, and Mandrills provides something they need, even if the body isn't as good as Tas's and they don't have a utility effect.
Yes, in a vacuum, a 4/5 that draws cards for 6 is better than a 4/4 with Trample for 6. But there is no vacuum. We know the format. Everything is contextual.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I agree with most of what you're saying. Just gonna reiterate my two cents that control decks don't necessarily want the best cheap beater because they're control decks. Their plan A isn't beating in the first place. That leaves room for slightly non-optimal beaters that bring utility, especially for late game grinds. The question then is how much utility do you need to justify playing a slightly smaller Tarmogoyf.
Splintertwin (?)
To cast Tasigur at cheap requires him to remove potential options for his graveyard recursion ability just to play him. Here's where play skill could make a difference, as you could hedge your bets some by removing the stuff in the 'yard you don't want to cast him while saving your prize card you'd like. Obviously, this makes it more likely you might get something you want with his ability, but only if you turn over something your opponent considers worse. But that probably means you'd rather of had that instead. Ultimately what I am saying is you probably will most times not get what you want with Tasigur or what is best. So it is like a weakened card draw of sorts that can't draw land.
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