Twin typically plays out like a tempo deck. Even Tarmotwin. Now that they are looking at B Twin players need to decide if continuing to be a tempo deck makes sense. What does a Twin deck look like without Serum Visions and Cryptic Command? After all, something has got to get cut for new cards. I don't get the sense here that people are playing a singleton Tas as a "Fun-of." Or Goyf/Rhino 9-12. What's his aability like in practice and what sort of deck does that shine in? Take that whole conversation and wrap the conversation of "why play B" around it. Fascinating stuff.
I'm really glad WotC has stepped up their game a bit since Theros. All it takes is a couple new cards to keep the non-rotating formats spicy.
I'm awaiting him on MTGO to put him in at least 4 decks; grixis twin, cruel control, Tez control, and aristocrats. Folks are talking about enabling delve to rush him out, but you don't even need to. Just play a tempo game, fill the yard naturally, and you can drop Tasigur and maybe get something back all at once. It's almost perfect for a control deck looking to recur stuff. It reminds me of charmbreaker devils, which was close to being a great card. The delve puts it on top.
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He's bad with Goyf and he's bad in multiples. The only impact Tasigur can make is the same as what he's made already.. 1-2 of them in some decks. He is a 1-2 mana 4/5 often which is good, but his anti-synergy with stuff like Goyf/Bob makes him worse.
I'm surprised people find him much easier to cast than Gurmag Angler, but I'll take their word for it.
He isn't bad with goyf, as goyf counts your opponents graveyard as well, your delve targets are often redundant and can work around goyf, and in general your argument will end up the same as it did with treasure cruise and goyf ending up in the same deck: just fine. TC even had a steeper delve cost, two less makes up for the general lack of cantrips in decks interested in the card.
Also running up to three still doesn't guarantee that the legend rule will even come up to knock the card down a peg--I often play junk, and win many games, some long, without seeing a single goyf, nevermind two--even if that is backbreaking.
In the decks he his slotting into, he comes into play a turn earlier than angler--and it makes the difference as to whether a card is competitive or not.
Let's get something out of the way: This card is not better than Goyf in a lot of situations. Goyf is an unconditional 2 mana. Tas is only 2 mana based on certain graveyard states. Although that's partially a liability, given cards like Decay, IoK, and Spell Snare, it's also obviously of benefit to decks that do not jam cards into their graveyard. Aggressive, creature-based decks like Zoo, for example, are unlikely to have 4 cards in their graveyard by turn 2, or even 4-5 by turn 3. So that's a context where Tas is not going to be better than Goyf.
Another context is in raw P/T. Although the average Goyf is typically a 4/5, this is likely to increase in the post-KTK metagame. During KTK, a huge percentage of decks were URx Delver or BGx Pod. With the exception of Pod itself as a card, those decks are exclusively lands, creatures, instants, and sorceries. This greatly reduced Goyf's chances of being anything more than a 4/5. With the metagame shifting to something totally new, that is no longer the case. More Junk will mean more planeswalkers. More Tron and Affinity will mean more artifacts. More Twin will mean more enchantments. Although Goyf is still probably an average 4/5 beater, 5/6 is going to be much more common in this metagame than it was in the last one. This is another important consideration when trying to decide if Tas is going to replace or supplement Goyfs in your deck.
None of this is to undercut Tas's power, which I have been promoting since I saw the card. It is just to complicate how we need to evaluate the creature and where it might fit into the format.
It's actually funny. In spoiler season almost nobody was talking about this card while I found him great right from the beginning and look where we are now
It's actually funny. In spoiler season almost nobody was talking about this card while I found him great right from the beginning and look where we are now
In spoiler season, Cruise/Dig were still unbanned. Now Cruise and Dig are banned, so other Delve cards can shine in Modern.
Even during Cruise/Dig season, I thought Tasigur was a nice fit in BGx Midrange and a possible fit in Domain Zoo. With the loss of Cruise/Dig, I'm also trying Tasigur in UB Faeries. (He does partially fix the Fae's aggro problem!)
He will see much play in decks that splash B. U/B control is ultimately also a place where he can shine with 1 mana cantrips and get a 4/5 body with counter magic back up.
I am currently playing him in zoo along with tarmogoyf because he has a great ability that helps against some match ups and 1 mana for a 4/5 top deck is great.
Junk that do not utilize bob will utilize tasigur possibly.
Other than mana considerations, there's almost no reason to play straight UR Twin anymore with him around. Such an efficient card. I'm playing 4 and never had any issues.
Edit: I own goyfs and I'd rather play tasigur. He overcomes most of goyf's weaknesses - spell snare, abrupt decay, threads, and even grave hate.
I think people may force him a bit too much. I don't think you bother with more than 1 in standard junk. He shines in graveyard focused strategies that want to grind CA. Basically assualt loam, dredgevine, and death cloud are the best 3 places for him. I'll be brewing up some decks with him in the next day or two on mtgo.
I think what it comes down to is Bob is better, and you wouldn't bother putting him in a deck with bob in modern. Hes better in a deck that can't/won't play bob since hes too fragile.
Tasigur into twin isn't a bad idea but seems to me there is a lot of times you rely heavily on snapcaster mage in the twin deck to win over the combo itself. I found playing Grixis twin using Tombstalker and Murderous Cut, that there were times that had to Cut something and then drew snap with an empty yard essentially enabling a dead card. Feel like a great shell for Tasigur will be Living End or Dredgevine as it just eliminates a lot of cantrips and trash out of the yard leaving the good stuff.
Tasigur will be a force to be reckoned with for sure, just a matter of what shell.
Have played him in standard last weekend in a few PTQ's and he never survived long enough for his activated ability to make a difference. But the 1 mana 4/5 was nice after casting a Sidisi or something that milled cards into the yard.
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Tasigur is incredibly strong. I think there are a lot of merit to comparing Tasigur and Deathrite Shaman.
No, they don't serve the same function. The similarity I'm referring to is that the card is in the top echelons of power when played early, and retains its strength into the late game. I think time will show he is busted.
In some ways, Tasigur combines Tarmogoyf big early body with Deathrite Shaman's ability to be relevant right up until the end of the game. This guy is going to be everywhere.
edit: I've seen him played in Grixis twin, Faeries, 4C gifts and Junk so far.
I think people are blowing him a little out of proportion. He'll probably find a home in some Modern decks, but he's not Tarmogoyf nor does he do a particularly good impression of it in many decks. The beauty of Goyf is he's always two mana. You don't need to work for it, you don't need to wait until a certain point in the game, you just pay two mana and you get a Goyf. That makes all the difference for aggro decks running Goyf, and even in BGx I've found most of the time I'd rather just draw the real deal. The deck doesn't fill the graveyard quickly which makes it difficult to cast him early and he plays poorly with Bob who I still feel is just a better card. If the meta pans out in a way that makes Bob poorly positioned again I can imagine a couple copies of Tasigur sneaking into BGx, but otherwise I can't see myself playing him instead of/alongside Confidant. He certainly does have advantages like surviving Abrupt Decay, but I don't know if he'll find a permanent home in Junk.
Another small strike against Tasigur is that he is legendary, so you are never going to be able to slam multiples onto the field like Goyf.
I will also agree with the notion that a lot of Tasigur's appeal will rest on how playable Bob is in the meta. Personally I feel that Bob was a big winner, with the bannings and with the burn and delver decks losing TC, there are fewer poor match ups for the G/B/x decks.
Seems like he could be good in a pox style deck. Small pox fills up your graveyard, Tasigur gets cheaper and lets you put cards back in your hand. Acts as an okay source of card advantage as well as a beater in a deck which is going to eat a lot of its own lands.
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Made a bug midrange deck which is similar to the Grixis list in that SCG open with Abrupt Decay. The card is pretty nuts. It has a favorable match up versus affinity and Splinter Twin because of Abrupt Decay and recurrable removal via Tasigur plus Snapcaster Mage plays super well with Tasigur (oddly).
I think the key to breaking him is just making your deck in such a way that you can cast multiple spells a turn, which is why just playing Junk with him isn't necessarily super nuts or anything. With smart play, having opponents choose isn't a real drawback. Also Murderous Cut I feel is probably the best way to ensure you can filter away the trash cards you flip and basically ensure whatever you return is fairly live.
I saw Tasigur, the Golden Fang in a junk list at last Modern fnm, he's like chuck norris! ya I said chuck norris!!! "when he does push ups, he doesn't push up," he pushes your deck down!
his mill ability is pretty solid along side scavenging ooze or murderous cut for keeping nothing but nonland utility and threats in the graveyard. I just wish modern had [c]sensei's divining top[c] type effect to make sure the top 2 card were worthwhile for better controlling his mill ability.
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Playing Serum Visions can sort of help set that up... but it doesn't exactly fit into Junk. Still eager to see how the next tournament plays out to see if he can make it into the top 8 in some way.
I've been ruNning tasigur in a UB control deck, and it does several things for a deck that usually had to wait a while to either put on pressure or throw out a blocker. It also enables using something like stubborn denial. So far the only time it's been useless is against merfolk and their islandwalk. Dang fish.
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I'm really glad WotC has stepped up their game a bit since Theros. All it takes is a couple new cards to keep the non-rotating formats spicy.
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I'm surprised people find him much easier to cast than Gurmag Angler, but I'll take their word for it.
Also running up to three still doesn't guarantee that the legend rule will even come up to knock the card down a peg--I often play junk, and win many games, some long, without seeing a single goyf, nevermind two--even if that is backbreaking.
In the decks he his slotting into, he comes into play a turn earlier than angler--and it makes the difference as to whether a card is competitive or not.
Another context is in raw P/T. Although the average Goyf is typically a 4/5, this is likely to increase in the post-KTK metagame. During KTK, a huge percentage of decks were URx Delver or BGx Pod. With the exception of Pod itself as a card, those decks are exclusively lands, creatures, instants, and sorceries. This greatly reduced Goyf's chances of being anything more than a 4/5. With the metagame shifting to something totally new, that is no longer the case. More Junk will mean more planeswalkers. More Tron and Affinity will mean more artifacts. More Twin will mean more enchantments. Although Goyf is still probably an average 4/5 beater, 5/6 is going to be much more common in this metagame than it was in the last one. This is another important consideration when trying to decide if Tas is going to replace or supplement Goyfs in your deck.
None of this is to undercut Tas's power, which I have been promoting since I saw the card. It is just to complicate how we need to evaluate the creature and where it might fit into the format.
In spoiler season, Cruise/Dig were still unbanned. Now Cruise and Dig are banned, so other Delve cards can shine in Modern.
Even during Cruise/Dig season, I thought Tasigur was a nice fit in BGx Midrange and a possible fit in Domain Zoo. With the loss of Cruise/Dig, I'm also trying Tasigur in UB Faeries. (He does partially fix the Fae's aggro problem!)
I am currently playing him in zoo along with tarmogoyf because he has a great ability that helps against some match ups and 1 mana for a 4/5 top deck is great.
Junk that do not utilize bob will utilize tasigur possibly.
Edit: I own goyfs and I'd rather play tasigur. He overcomes most of goyf's weaknesses - spell snare, abrupt decay, threads, and even grave hate.
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I will play him in almost anything that can run Black. I am building a Loam Swiftspear deck which he will fit nicely into.
I think what it comes down to is Bob is better, and you wouldn't bother putting him in a deck with bob in modern. Hes better in a deck that can't/won't play bob since hes too fragile.
Tasigur will be a force to be reckoned with for sure, just a matter of what shell.
Have played him in standard last weekend in a few PTQ's and he never survived long enough for his activated ability to make a difference. But the 1 mana 4/5 was nice after casting a Sidisi or something that milled cards into the yard.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
No, they don't serve the same function. The similarity I'm referring to is that the card is in the top echelons of power when played early, and retains its strength into the late game. I think time will show he is busted.
In some ways, Tasigur combines Tarmogoyf big early body with Deathrite Shaman's ability to be relevant right up until the end of the game. This guy is going to be everywhere.
edit: I've seen him played in Grixis twin, Faeries, 4C gifts and Junk so far.
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I will also agree with the notion that a lot of Tasigur's appeal will rest on how playable Bob is in the meta. Personally I feel that Bob was a big winner, with the bannings and with the burn and delver decks losing TC, there are fewer poor match ups for the G/B/x decks.
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I actually edited that out and it didn't change. :/
I think the key to breaking him is just making your deck in such a way that you can cast multiple spells a turn, which is why just playing Junk with him isn't necessarily super nuts or anything. With smart play, having opponents choose isn't a real drawback. Also Murderous Cut I feel is probably the best way to ensure you can filter away the trash cards you flip and basically ensure whatever you return is fairly live.
it's wonderfull
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-deck-creation/588489-tasigur-bug-midrange
his mill ability is pretty solid along side scavenging ooze or murderous cut for keeping nothing but nonland utility and threats in the graveyard. I just wish modern had [c]sensei's divining top[c] type effect to make sure the top 2 card were worthwhile for better controlling his mill ability.
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