GGT unbanned is nice I guess, but I am completely in shock that Wizards didn't unban Bloodbraid Elf or Ancestral Visions and instead banned both Cruise and Dig as well as Pod.
I'm not. All those cards are overpowered.
The entire reason that they banned Dig was
"In Modern, these cards are easy replacements for one another—while a Delver deck might use Treasure Cruise over Dig Through Time, banning one but not the other would do little to change the deck."
While I agree that that is possible and does work in the slower Delver decks, they had no way of knowing whether that would happen without actually seeing it happen. They banned Dig based on the assumption that it could perfectly replace Cruise in all decks.
Dig Through Time totally did not need to be banned. How could they even make the argument that DTT would flat out replace TC without letting DTT stay unbanned? Delver NEVER played DTT and there was no indication they would play DTT just yet. Wizards dropped the ball harder than Bostick's fumble in the NFC Championships...
At risk of being another "WOTC doesn't know what they are doing!" post, I'll just complain from a personal standpoint. Got in to modern just prior to KTK and built up UWR control. Then KTK drops, and that deck gets much worse. Ok cool, invest in Scapeshift while slowly piecing together a pod list. Now Dig AND Pod get banned?? I just can't seem to find a deck that I can play. Maybe I can go back to UWR now, except Junk is going to be the deck to beat now.
I really don't understand the Dig ban. UU is a significant difference to the spell. You aren't going to jam it into burn, and it allows better consistency to combo and control decks. And I feel like Pod has always been a top deck, helped lately by the fact that so many people are playing delver (partially helped by the fact that it's one of the cheaper modern decks to make for new players). I don't see the point of banning a deck that has so many different build options. I wonder how many people only have pod as a deck in modern and are now hosed.
Edit: To people saying pod is too consistent: do we want the format to be won by decks that are inconsistent? Doesn't that take a lot of the skill out of it and make the game much more random? Building a solid consistent deck should be rewarded, not punished. Pod was beatable, but most of the decks that can beat it are torn down by delver.
Scapeshift will still be fine going forward. UWR Control can probably still beat Junk decks if built properly, and will probably go back to being a very playable deck.
There's a difference between consistent, and too consistent. Pod was powerful AND consistent, which is what made it so successful.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
This announcement really let me feel that Modern is a joke.
Congratulation for KTK, this new set kills a Modern defined tier 1 deck (Pod) and a budget tier 2 deck (Delver).
Dig Through Time totally did not need to be banned. How could they even make the argument that DTT would flat out replace TC without letting DTT stay unbanned? Delver NEVER played DTT and there was no indication they would play DTT just yet. Wizards dropped the ball harder than Bostick's fumble in the NFC Championships...
The problem wasn't Delver playing DTT, it's Twin and Scapeshift playing it with Pod no longer in the format.
I'm pissed. Pod was one of my favorite cards in the format (and deck) and it takes a long time to learn and get used to it. It wasn't even overpowered really - it was strong, but not format dominating. You can go look at plenty of 4-0 lists or other tournament lists and sometimes isn't even in the top 8. Granted, its a tier 1 deck, but cmon. Every deck has their engine or combo piece to make it very powerful. I just sold all my standard stuff to start just only playing modern because I considered it a much better format - at this point I'm not even sure I can agree with that anymore.
That might be true, but the only way that Wizards could find out if Dig could just replace Cruise in Delver decks is by letting Dig stay legal for another few months. Banning Dig at the same time does not allow us to see whether it would just replace Cruise perfectly.
That might be true, but the only way that Wizards could find out if Dig could just replace Cruise in Delver decks is by letting Dig stay legal for another few months. Banning Dig at the same time does not allow us to see whether it would just replace Cruise perfectly.
actually dig wouldnt replace cruise, delver would die and now twin scapeshift and ascendancy would be broken. Wizards knew this and did what was right before it happened. look at scapeshifts numbers even with oppressive delver around.
I am just going off of what they said their reasoning was. This was their reasoning
"In Modern, these cards are easy replacements for one another—while a Delver deck might use Treasure Cruise over Dig Through Time, banning one but not the other would do little to change the deck."
Maybe Dig would have broken other decks, but that isn't why they banned it. They banned it because they were paranoid about a Cruise replacement in Delver.
To me these bans seems pretty ballsy, but they also reinforce my belief that Wizards know exactly what they want out of the format. This doesn't look like a panic ban; it looks like a firm decision based on guiding the format the way they want it to go.
Now that may not be the way that I want it go, or even the way I thought they wanted it to go, but at least they have a vision.
I hope that that vision will eventually involve Ancestral Visions.
Dig Through Time totally did not need to be banned. How could they even make the argument that DTT would flat out replace TC without letting DTT stay unbanned? Delver NEVER played DTT and there was no indication they would play DTT just yet. Wizards dropped the ball harder than Bostick's fumble in the NFC Championships...
The problem wasn't Delver playing DTT, it's Twin and Scapeshift playing it with Pod no longer in the format.
False. Wizard's reasoning was this
"In Modern, these cards are easy replacements for one another—while a Delver deck might use Treasure Cruise over Dig Through Time, banning one but not the other would do little to change the deck."
Wizards did not ban it to stop Twin and Scapeshift. It banned it to ruin Delver completely.
Anybody want to buy some Dig Through Times and Pods?
I'm not surprised by the bans. I figured if TC was going to go, Pod had to go. And honestly, Dig is not that much different than TC, and can even be better. I was hoping to get a little more time with Dig since I never even played with it in a tournament, but that's life.
Grave-Troll is overdue. It will shake up the format, which will be interesting to see. Just bought 4 Vengevines. Hopefully that pays off.
To all Pod players out there, I'm truly sorry. My best friend plays Pod, and when I gave him the news, he just sighed and said "...guess I need to buy some Goyfs now..."
Same here. Shoutout to all of you who lost >$100 for the "improvement" of the modern meta.
I'd just buy into Legacy before I bought Goyfs.
Unless Goyf is a common in MM2 Modern is dead to me.
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That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
First time they actually ban one of my decks outright - I'd been singed in the past, first time I'm burned (can't wait till the dumb<****s> start saying "Wizards just banned a card, not a deck! It's still playable, just put chord of calling in pod's place!"... aaaand I'm not thrilled with it, to say the least - most fun, unique deck in the format gets banned, now the top tables gonna go back to BGx borefests all day long.
The format, as it stands now, is actually MUCH weaker than the one I started playing in with the release of RTR in 2012 - and, with this, Wizards' vision for Modern is clear. They will not allow the general power level to go up - otherwise, they could have tried to balance the format through unbans. They want Midrange decks in the top tables. No good draw/advantage engines.
KtK forcefully raised the powerlevel of the format - Delver shot up to Tier 1, weird stuff like Amulet Combo and Jeskai Ascendency became good, playable Tier 1.5 decks, while Pod stayed T1 simple through it's adaptability... The format got a good, necessary shakeup from its stale status quo. Heck, freaking Kuldotha Red won our last local FNM by running over the Delver and Combo decks that had crept up.
I'll fall back to UR Twin - exact same list from before KtK came out - and keep playing till Twin's turn on the chopping block comes next.
My Chalice-merfolk wont be affected much
My delver deck? Meh, remove TC and thoughrscour, put more Snaps and Remands.
My UrzaTron? Pleased...very pelased...
Yeah couple other people mentioned it as well but back to EDH I go. This sets a clear message as to where they want modern togo and I dont like it at all. Seriously do they not want blue to be a color in this format?
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SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
It made no sense whatsoever what most Pod players where stating here, ban TC/DTT but leave POD untouched. If you act on the one, the other gets the hammer too.
Those clamoring that Junk will take over, need I remind you, the deck is dirt vs Burn?
I would have liked some more unbans, but well, overall I am happy.
I'll miss TC but i agree with you
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My Decks on Paper: UWR Control/Midrange/Delver UWR Twin Miss you GBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only) GWAura Hexproof GWHatebears
Dig Through Time totally did not need to be banned. How could they even make the argument that DTT would flat out replace TC without letting DTT stay unbanned? Delver NEVER played DTT and there was no indication they would play DTT just yet. Wizards dropped the ball harder than Bostick's fumble in the NFC Championships...
The problem wasn't Delver playing DTT, it's Twin and Scapeshift playing it with Pod no longer in the format.
False. Wizard's reasoning was this
"In Modern, these cards are easy replacements for one another—while a Delver deck might use Treasure Cruise over Dig Through Time, banning one but not the other would do little to change the deck."
Wizards did not ban it to stop Twin and Scapeshift. It banned it to ruin Delver completely.
I wasn't talking about Wizard's reasonings. I was making a statement on why DTT would be a problem if left in the format.
What a bunch of whiny babies. You have all been spoiled with stupid card draw, and dumb creature tutoring for so long. All you can say now is "I want my easy wins to stay easy". Get with it. You play to win, but don't expect it to be handed to you. If anything, the ban does not go far enough. But Ill take a TC, DTT, and Pod ban.
Let this be a message to the rest of you: if your deck heavily relies on one particular card, change your strategy, or don't invest too much. I'm looking at you, Delver of Secrets.
Damn, Pod was one of my favorite decks, it's sad to see it go.
I'm glad they didn't unban BBE on top of everything else. If it was unbanned Jund would probably be too powerful in the wake of all these other bans, even accounting for the DRS ban.
Also this probably helps non-Cruise Burn in the long run, since less decks will run Chalice.
That might be true, but the only way that Wizards could find out if Dig could just replace Cruise in Delver decks is by letting Dig stay legal for another few months. Banning Dig at the same time does not allow us to see whether it would just replace Cruise perfectly.
That might be true, but the only way that Wizards could find out if Dig could just replace Cruise in Delver decks is by letting Dig stay legal for another few months. Banning Dig at the same time does not allow us to see whether it would just replace Cruise perfectly.
actually dig wouldnt replace cruise, delver would die and now twin scapeshift and ascendancy would be broken. Wizards knew this and did what was right before it happened. look at scapeshifts numbers even with oppressive delver around.
I am just going off of what they said their reasoning was. This was their reasoning
"In Modern, these cards are easy replacements for one another—while a Delver deck might use Treasure Cruise over Dig Through Time, banning one but not the other would do little to change the deck."
Maybe Dig would have broken other decks, but that isn't why they banned it. They banned it because they were paranoid about a Cruise replacement in Delver.
To me these bans seems pretty ballsy, but they also reinforce my belief that Wizards know exactly what they want out of the format. This doesn't look like a panic ban; it looks like a firm decision based on guiding the format the way they want it to go.
Now that may not be the way that I want it go, or even the way I thought they wanted it to go, but at least they have a vision.
I hope that that vision will eventually involve Ancestral Visions.
FYI Havent seen that page yet it wasnt loading
Yea its clear at this point what wizards wants and delver and pod broke this in there eyes. Something I argued for pages about. my next worry is the possible dominance of junk decks..but well see
"In Modern, these cards are easy replacements for one another—while a Delver deck might use Treasure Cruise over Dig Through Time, banning one but not the other would do little to change the deck."
While I agree that that is possible and does work in the slower Delver decks, they had no way of knowing whether that would happen without actually seeing it happen. They banned Dig based on the assumption that it could perfectly replace Cruise in all decks.
The thing you aren't seeing is that current Delver decks would very likely look exactly the same as they do now. The only difference would be -4 Treasure Cruise, +4 Dig Through Time. Just because the card is slightly different would have very little effect on how the rest of the deck is built. Without Cruise, there's no better option, and DTT is so very close to Cruise that it wouldn't matter.
I completely agree with WOTC that Dig would just replace Cruise. We don't need another 3 months to figure that out. If all they did was ban Cruise (or Cruise + Pod), the Pro Tour would be overrun with Blue Decks playing Dig. Delver would very likely Top 8, if not put multiples into the Top 16.
Also, while this is the reason they gave, I'm sure there was more thought to it as well. If, somehow, Delver became terrible with DDT in place of Cruise, there would still be plenty of blue decks that would step in to abuse the Blue Instant instead. It wouldn't take long until we had a Twin or Scapeshift dominated format. But more than likely, it would still just be Delver.
Look, I'm all for DTT coming back at some point, and I would have been thrilled if they left it alone, but I can't argue with their logic. The reason I wanted them to leave it be? So I could keep winning with Delver of course.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Does this mean we'll se some actual (gasp) innovation!?!?!?!?
This certainly does shake up modern, but that's a good thing. With so many possibilities, this lets deckbuilders such as myself thrive. The unbanning of grave troll is also interesting. It's not too powerful on the surface, but I foresee it doing some degenerate things. For now, I expect splinter twin and scapeshift to become the new tier 1 decks, along with any new deck that might emerge that's good enough to compete with those two.
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Shall we play EDH instead?
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
The entire reason that they banned Dig was
"In Modern, these cards are easy replacements for one another—while a Delver deck might use Treasure Cruise over Dig Through Time, banning one but not the other would do little to change the deck."
While I agree that that is possible and does work in the slower Delver decks, they had no way of knowing whether that would happen without actually seeing it happen. They banned Dig based on the assumption that it could perfectly replace Cruise in all decks.
Weren't you questioning why Dig was banned?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Scapeshift will still be fine going forward. UWR Control can probably still beat Junk decks if built properly, and will probably go back to being a very playable deck.
There's a difference between consistent, and too consistent. Pod was powerful AND consistent, which is what made it so successful.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Yeah, enjoy your Abzan Midrange: the Formating format now because that's where we're heading.
Focus: Omnath, Locus of Mana EDH.
Congratulation for KTK, this new set kills a Modern defined tier 1 deck (Pod) and a budget tier 2 deck (Delver).
What the <****>...
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
yea junk is going to be very powerful in modern now hopeully not too oppressive or theyll ban goyf! lol
decks playing:
none
Commander
U Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
RG Zilortha, Strength Incarnate
WU Yorion, Sky Nomad
Melira Pod - Modern
I am just going off of what they said their reasoning was. This was their reasoning
"In Modern, these cards are easy replacements for one another—while a Delver deck might use Treasure Cruise over Dig Through Time, banning one but not the other would do little to change the deck."
Maybe Dig would have broken other decks, but that isn't why they banned it. They banned it because they were paranoid about a Cruise replacement in Delver.
I hope that that vision will eventually involve Ancestral Visions.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
False. Wizard's reasoning was this
"In Modern, these cards are easy replacements for one another—while a Delver deck might use Treasure Cruise over Dig Through Time, banning one but not the other would do little to change the deck."
Wizards did not ban it to stop Twin and Scapeshift. It banned it to ruin Delver completely.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'd just buy into Legacy before I bought Goyfs.
Unless Goyf is a common in MM2 Modern is dead to me.
Nah there aren't that many Goyfs out there.
The format, as it stands now, is actually MUCH weaker than the one I started playing in with the release of RTR in 2012 - and, with this, Wizards' vision for Modern is clear. They will not allow the general power level to go up - otherwise, they could have tried to balance the format through unbans. They want Midrange decks in the top tables. No good draw/advantage engines.
KtK forcefully raised the powerlevel of the format - Delver shot up to Tier 1, weird stuff like Amulet Combo and Jeskai Ascendency became good, playable Tier 1.5 decks, while Pod stayed T1 simple through it's adaptability... The format got a good, necessary shakeup from its stale status quo. Heck, freaking Kuldotha Red won our last local FNM by running over the Delver and Combo decks that had crept up.
I'll fall back to UR Twin - exact same list from before KtK came out - and keep playing till Twin's turn on the chopping block comes next.
Delver weakened?
Ugin coming?
My Chalice-merfolk wont be affected much
My delver deck? Meh, remove TC and thoughrscour, put more Snaps and Remands.
My UrzaTron? Pleased...very pelased...
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
I'll miss TC but i agree with you
UWR Control/Midrange/Delver
UWR TwinMiss youGBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only)
GWAura Hexproof
GWHatebears
Commander
U Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
RG Zilortha, Strength Incarnate
WU Yorion, Sky Nomad
Let this be a message to the rest of you: if your deck heavily relies on one particular card, change your strategy, or don't invest too much. I'm looking at you, Delver of Secrets.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
I'm glad they didn't unban BBE on top of everything else. If it was unbanned Jund would probably be too powerful in the wake of all these other bans, even accounting for the DRS ban.
Also this probably helps non-Cruise Burn in the long run, since less decks will run Chalice.
FYI Havent seen that page yet it wasnt loading
Yea its clear at this point what wizards wants and delver and pod broke this in there eyes. Something I argued for pages about. my next worry is the possible dominance of junk decks..but well see
decks playing:
none
The thing you aren't seeing is that current Delver decks would very likely look exactly the same as they do now. The only difference would be -4 Treasure Cruise, +4 Dig Through Time. Just because the card is slightly different would have very little effect on how the rest of the deck is built. Without Cruise, there's no better option, and DTT is so very close to Cruise that it wouldn't matter.
I completely agree with WOTC that Dig would just replace Cruise. We don't need another 3 months to figure that out. If all they did was ban Cruise (or Cruise + Pod), the Pro Tour would be overrun with Blue Decks playing Dig. Delver would very likely Top 8, if not put multiples into the Top 16.
Also, while this is the reason they gave, I'm sure there was more thought to it as well. If, somehow, Delver became terrible with DDT in place of Cruise, there would still be plenty of blue decks that would step in to abuse the Blue Instant instead. It wouldn't take long until we had a Twin or Scapeshift dominated format. But more than likely, it would still just be Delver.
Look, I'm all for DTT coming back at some point, and I would have been thrilled if they left it alone, but I can't argue with their logic. The reason I wanted them to leave it be? So I could keep winning with Delver of course.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Standard has more decks containing blue than any other color.
This certainly does shake up modern, but that's a good thing. With so many possibilities, this lets deckbuilders such as myself thrive. The unbanning of grave troll is also interesting. It's not too powerful on the surface, but I foresee it doing some degenerate things. For now, I expect splinter twin and scapeshift to become the new tier 1 decks, along with any new deck that might emerge that's good enough to compete with those two.