I agree that twin is pretty much the reason why blue can't get solid card draw/filter effects, but I always prefer the approach of banning cards to weaken a major powerhouse deck, not completely kill it and I like the deck being around. Banning exarch wouldn't be a bad way to hurt it since it allows the creature to be much more fragile, or they can go uwr for bell ringer, but then hurt their mana base. I think that's a fair trade off.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
[quote from="axman »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/584965-current-modern-banlist-discussion-3-23-2015-update?comment=8185"]
I personally think that we will never know for sure if DtT is too good for the format until it's actually given a chance to play it out without Cruise destroying everything. I also don't really think a combo deck being *consistent* is going to necessarily be a problem for the format unless it's consistently too fast to interact with.
DTT is too good for Legacy right now. It would wreck Modern given the time to do that. It was a good proactive ban. Magic bullet and combo lists that can look at 7 cards and keep 2 of them at end of opponent's turn 4 are really hard to deal with even for a diverse meta like the current Modern.
The poster boy for don't let DTT back into Modern is Patrick Dickman. Finding the combo and protection for it or just finding a couple of beaters to wear the opponent down would be really hard to deal with.
Except it didn't wreck modern at the time or even come close and the modern and legacy card pools are not the same. You can't dig into a free force of will + blue card in modern. That's why I'm saying it MAY be true, but we don't have data from modern that says it would have happened. Blue doesn't exactly have any good card advantage spells in modern as is apart from specifically snap caster mage.
I'm ultimately not arguing for a Dig unban right now, though I would like it. I have the ascendancy combo shell collecting dust from having built it then. But from my understanding the opinion that it's too strong for legacy is divisive as well, but even so modern DtT can't do everything it can in legacy, and I'm not convinced that it would wreck modern given our current cardpool and metagame.
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Ok, so you're sitting with RUG Twin staring at Tarmogoyf and Pestermite in your hand along about end of opponent's turn 4. The other cards in the hand and the board state plus your opponent's known options are going to be a major factor in which path you choose to take. DTT is an extraordinarily prescient asset in that situation. It can give you an overload that didn't previously exist and it does it at instant speed. It can inform your decision in ways that no other card in Modern can at this point. It's just very powerful card advantage and selection and it happens at the end of the opponent's turn, making even non tapped out opponents vulnerable to a tempo overrun where they are forced to pick between defending the setup at the end of their turn or the main thrust during your turn.
Now in a blue mirror you don't have a lot of certainty at that point other than you're likely to draw a response from your opponent to whatever you do. Against most lists you're in the driver's seat and it's going to be very hard for them to wrest the wheel back from you. So the meta will begin to trend blue because people don't like being in a situation where they get beat on the stack at the end of their turn.
If I were at WotC, I would implement the following list once Origins comes out:
Ban:
Splinter Twin: The combo is still cancerous to the Modern format. Besides still holding the title of most commonly played deck archetype and proving that it can consistently fight through the hate cards designed to disrupt it by continuing to do extremely well in tournaments, other decks must build and play in fear of this easy two card instant win combo. The deck even still functions and can win without the use of Splinter Twin, similar to how Birthing Pod decks could win without using Pod. Both decks without their combo cards (basically just URx control and Abzan midrange) are still forces to be reckoned with in the Modern format, so Splinter Twin is just unneeded icing.
Unban:
Ancestral Vision: This move is likely only possible if Splinter Twin goes away. The card is good, no doubt, MAYBE even too good for Modern if suspended on turn one in the right lists, but I think it will do more good than bad. The time it takes to cast and the chance of dead drawing it late game are very real things, so it's not like the card has no downside. It will be a good tool for blue control decks to combat the format by finding answers to the more linear strategies, hopefully in time to matter. Other blue decks even have a convenient answer to this card in the form of Remand.
Bloodbraid Elf: Yes, Jund is a tier 1 archetype already, and it probably doesn't NEED Bloodbraid, but the other top decks of the format have something Jund does not, cards like Snapcaster Mage and Collected Company. Khommand comes close, but BBE gives the deck a relevant mid to late game threat with card advantage tacked on, and without Deathrite in the format to accelerate it, it is quite fair for its mana cost.
Seething Song: The storm decks this card enables are just worse than the other storm or combo decks in the format. Also, this helps out Red stompy a great degree.
Sword of the Meek: Basically a more fair version of Splinter Twin, a two card combo that threatens to close out the game soon but not immediately, and is still disruptable to a certain extent (artifact/grave hate instead of creature/enchantment hate). While it is slightly more splashable, you are still forced into at least a UW or UB shell.
The ONLY way I could see a twin ban is if you unbanned powerful blue spells (jace, brainstorm, etc). Unfortunately reactive blue decks are not possible in modern at the moment. If you remove the combo completely a huge part of the meta falls off with no equivalent replacement
If I were at WotC, I would implement the following list once Origins comes out:
Ban:
Splinter Twin: The combo is still cancerous to the Modern format. Besides still holding the title of most commonly played deck archetype
Most commonly played archetype means nothing. It has to be noticeably head and shoulders above the rest of the format, like Pod and Delver were, for that to mean anything.
and proving that it can consistently fight through the hate cards designed to disrupt it by continuing to do extremely well in tournaments, other decks must build and play in fear of this easy two card instant win combo. The deck even still functions and can win without the use of Splinter Twin, similar to how Birthing Pod decks could win without using Pod. Both decks without their combo cards (basically just URx control and Abzan midrange) are still forces to be reckoned with in the Modern format, so Splinter Twin is just unneeded icing.
So basically, your argument is that it should be banned because... it's a good deck. Seriously. Everything you said? It's why it's a good deck. It's not why it's an overpowered deck (it isn't) or why it needs a ban. So despite your claim it's "cancerous" you haven't done anything to indicate why other than that... it's a decent deck. Better go on a banning spree then, because obviously good decks aren't allowed!
Unban:
Ancestral Vision: This move is likely only possible if Splinter Twin goes away. The card is good, no doubt, MAYBE even too good for Modern if suspended on turn one in the right lists, but I think it will do more good than bad. The time it takes to cast and the chance of dead drawing it late game are very real things, so it's not like the card has no downside. It will be a good tool for blue control decks to combat the format by finding answers to the more linear strategies, hopefully in time to matter. Other blue decks even have a convenient answer to this card in the form of Remand.
The card is fine. The only question is whether it would put Twin over the top. I have doubts about that, but it's not problematic on its own.
I suppose someone could argue Twin should be banned so that Ancestral Vision can be unbanned, but such swap bans are highly questionable.
Bloodbraid Elf: Yes, Jund is a tier 1 archetype already, and it probably doesn't NEED Bloodbraid, but the other top decks of the format have something Jund does not, cards like Snapcaster Mage and Collected Company. Khommand comes close, but BBE gives the deck a relevant mid to late game threat with card advantage tacked on, and without Deathrite in the format to accelerate it, it is quite fair for its mana cost.
Funny, you support a Twin ban because decks don't "need" Twin, then support a Bloodbraid Elf ban while admitting Jund doesn't need it.
And exactly why Jund is required to have some kind of 2-for-1 card is... unclear. You don't actually say why, you just say "hey, other decks have it, so this should also!" Maybe one of the reasons Jund isn't completely overpowered is because it doesn't have those things?
Seething Song: The storm decks this card enables are just worse than the other storm or combo decks in the format. Also, this helps out Red stompy a great degree.
And, um... what are the Storm decks this enables that are worse than the current Storm decks? Seriously, this makes no sense. The Storm decks that do exist would absolutely play Seething Song and be better as a result. It's like saying that if you give someone money, they have less money than they did before.
Sword of the Meek: Basically a more fair version of Splinter Twin, a two card combo that threatens to close out the game soon but not immediately, and is still disruptable to a certain extent (artifact/grave hate instead of creature/enchantment hate). While it is slightly more splashable, you are still forced into at least a UW or UB shell.
I will agree Sword of the Meek has little reason to be banned.
If I were at WotC, I would implement the following list once Origins comes out:
Ban:
Splinter Twin: The combo is still cancerous to the Modern format. Besides still holding the title of most commonly played deck archetype and proving that it can consistently fight through the hate cards designed to disrupt it by continuing to do extremely well in tournaments, other decks must build and play in fear of this easy two card instant win combo. The deck even still functions and can win without the use of Splinter Twin, similar to how Birthing Pod decks could win without using Pod. Both decks without their combo cards (basically just URx control and Abzan midrange) are still forces to be reckoned with in the Modern format, so Splinter Twin is just unneeded icing.
Unban:
Bloodbraid Elf: Yes, Jund is a tier 1 archetype already, and it probably doesn't NEED Bloodbraid, but the other top decks of the format have something Jund does not, cards like Snapcaster Mage and Collected Company. Khommand comes close, but BBE gives the deck a relevant mid to late game threat with card advantage tacked on, and without Deathrite in the format to accelerate it, it is quite fair for its mana cost.
Have you played Twin? Have you played against it? The reason I ask is because I have played Twin for about a year, and the only time it is an 'lol oops I win' is if you are playing someone new to the format or someone with a silly home brew.
Every deck (for the most part) needs to pack removal if they are going to play the fair game. That is just part of Magic. Saying you have to build your decks around beating Twin is a bit of an exaggeration. Yes Twin Combo folds to lots of removal. So does every other creature deck. So if you build a deck for modern, and you did a bit of research on what is in the format, then you will be fine against Twin.
SB hate for Twin carries over to other decks as well. Spellskite is a great answer to Twin, as well as to Infect and Boggles. It is colorless and any deck can play it. Literally every color has access to removal that is good against multiple decks, not just Twin.
The fact that you want to ban Twin and unban Bloodbraid is a little silly I think. Bloodbraid will make Jund, currently the new hotness in Modern, Tier 0.5 again, even without Deathrite. Bloodbraid Elf into Liliana or Tarmogoyf is insane value. Plus if they unbanned Bloodbraid along with Ancestral Vision, then RUG Midrange becomes the best deck ever.
If I were at WotC, I would implement the following list once Origins comes out:
Ban:
Splinter Twin: The combo is still cancerous to the Modern format. Besides still holding the title of most commonly played deck archetype and proving that it can consistently fight through the hate cards designed to disrupt it by continuing to do extremely well in tournaments, other decks must build and play in fear of this easy two card instant win combo. The deck even still functions and can win without the use of Splinter Twin, similar to how Birthing Pod decks could win without using Pod. Both decks without their combo cards (basically just URx control and Abzan midrange) are still forces to be reckoned with in the Modern format, so Splinter Twin is just unneeded icing.
Unban:
Ancestral Vision: This move is likely only possible if Splinter Twin goes away. The card is good, no doubt, MAYBE even too good for Modern if suspended on turn one in the right lists, but I think it will do more good than bad. The time it takes to cast and the chance of dead drawing it late game are very real things, so it's not like the card has no downside. It will be a good tool for blue control decks to combat the format by finding answers to the more linear strategies, hopefully in time to matter. Other blue decks even have a convenient answer to this card in the form of Remand.
Bloodbraid Elf: Yes, Jund is a tier 1 archetype already, and it probably doesn't NEED Bloodbraid, but the other top decks of the format have something Jund does not, cards like Snapcaster Mage and Collected Company. Khommand comes close, but BBE gives the deck a relevant mid to late game threat with card advantage tacked on, and without Deathrite in the format to accelerate it, it is quite fair for its mana cost.
Seething Song: The storm decks this card enables are just worse than the other storm or combo decks in the format. Also, this helps out Red stompy a great degree.
Sword of the Meek: Basically a more fair version of Splinter Twin, a two card combo that threatens to close out the game soon but not immediately, and is still disruptable to a certain extent (artifact/grave hate instead of creature/enchantment hate). While it is slightly more splashable, you are still forced into at least a UW or UB shell.
The ONLY way I could see a twin ban is if you unbanned powerful blue spells (jace, brainstorm, etc). Unfortunately reactive blue decks are not possible in modern at the moment. If you remove the combo completely a huge part of the meta falls off with no equivalent replacement
Well, people would just move to the next combo deck...
oh wait. Oops.
It would be fun watching the Twin players listen to "You can still play the deck with Kiki-Jiki and do fine". Just like Storm players got to hear "You can live without Seething Song, you have Ascension and Electromancer."
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You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Abusing cascade shenanigans via BBE takes more setup than you're giving it credit for. This isn't Legacy where you can brainstorm Visions to the top and then Cascade for value.
I'm unsure if that would really be that much of a thing, RUG midrange that is.
If I were at WotC, I would implement the following list once Origins comes out:
Ban:
Splinter Twin: The combo is still cancerous to the Modern format. Besides still holding the title of most commonly played deck archetype and proving that it can consistently fight through the hate cards designed to disrupt it by continuing to do extremely well in tournaments, other decks must build and play in fear of this easy two card instant win combo. The deck even still functions and can win without the use of Splinter Twin, similar to how Birthing Pod decks could win without using Pod. Both decks without their combo cards (basically just URx control and Abzan midrange) are still forces to be reckoned with in the Modern format, so Splinter Twin is just unneeded icing.
Unban:
Ancestral Vision: This move is likely only possible if Splinter Twin goes away. The card is good, no doubt, MAYBE even too good for Modern if suspended on turn one in the right lists, but I think it will do more good than bad. The time it takes to cast and the chance of dead drawing it late game are very real things, so it's not like the card has no downside. It will be a good tool for blue control decks to combat the format by finding answers to the more linear strategies, hopefully in time to matter. Other blue decks even have a convenient answer to this card in the form of Remand.
Bloodbraid Elf: Yes, Jund is a tier 1 archetype already, and it probably doesn't NEED Bloodbraid, but the other top decks of the format have something Jund does not, cards like Snapcaster Mage and Collected Company. Khommand comes close, but BBE gives the deck a relevant mid to late game threat with card advantage tacked on, and without Deathrite in the format to accelerate it, it is quite fair for its mana cost.
Seething Song: The storm decks this card enables are just worse than the other storm or combo decks in the format. Also, this helps out Red stompy a great degree.
Sword of the Meek: Basically a more fair version of Splinter Twin, a two card combo that threatens to close out the game soon but not immediately, and is still disruptable to a certain extent (artifact/grave hate instead of creature/enchantment hate). While it is slightly more splashable, you are still forced into at least a UW or UB shell.
The ONLY way I could see a twin ban is if you unbanned powerful blue spells (jace, brainstorm, etc). Unfortunately reactive blue decks are not possible in modern at the moment. If you remove the combo completely a huge part of the meta falls off with no equivalent replacement
Well, people would just move to the next combo deck...
oh wait. Oops.
It would be fun watching the Twin players listen to "You can still play the deck with Kiki-Jiki and do fine". Just like Storm players got to hear "You can live without Seething Song, you have Ascension and Electromancer."
Banning twin would also severally ban control. Plus it is a highly interactive combo. No ban necessary.
Hold on a second. Might have missed this in the last few pages of comments.
Why are we discussing a BBE unban when Jund was 10% of the day 2 metagame and is currently at about 8% of the overall metagame and exceeding Abzan? Why does that deck need any help? Doesn't that seem pretty ridiculously risky?
Hold on a second. Might have missed this in the last few pages of comments.
Why are we discussing a BBE unban when Jund was 10% of the day 2 metagame and is currently at about 8% of the overall metagame and exceeding Abzan? Why does that deck need any help? Doesn't that seem pretty ridiculously risky?
Because someone brought it up, along with banning Twin, unbanning Sword of the Meek, and unban Ancestral Vision. In other words, that last 40 pages gained enough sentience to sign up for an account.
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You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Hold on a second. Might have missed this in the last few pages of comments.
Why are we discussing a BBE unban when Jund was 10% of the day 2 metagame and is currently at about 8% of the overall metagame and exceeding Abzan? Why does that deck need any help? Doesn't that seem pretty ridiculously risky?
Some people really like cascading BBE into Lilly I guess.
I think Modern is capable of handling BBE in a vacuum, but it really isn't necessary to the metagame and with Jund having risen up, any unbannings could be better suited to propping up dead archetypes and not strengthening already good ones.
Abusing cascade shenanigans via BBE takes more setup than you're giving it credit for. This isn't Legacy where you can brainstorm Visions to the top and then Cascade for value.
I'm unsure if that would really be that much of a thing, RUG midrange that is.
The Bloodbraid Elf+Ancestral Vision interaction is powerful, but it's also random and puts some crimps on your deckbuilding (Bloodbraid Elf doesn't play nicely with counterspells). I don't think it's problematically powerful, and could actually create a new deck. I don't think RUG Cascade is a real problem. Someone might point to Shardless BUG in Legacy, but that deck has Brainstorm to set it up and put away weak Ancestral Visions, the cascader is Blue so you can add discard for disruption while remaining in only three colors, and Force of Will is a cheap counterspell you will never cascade into.
The real problem with Bloodbraid Elf and Ancestral Vision is that they could give Jund and Twin too much of a boost, respectively.
How about Sword of the Meek? I haven't seen any reasons NOT to unban it recently. In the past, I've seen that "it will hurt Aggro." While I agree that Sword is very good against Aggro, I believe the setup required still allows Aggro to somewhat do their thing and yes, I know that Lightning Bolt will probably be played in the same deck as Sword.
The only reason against such an unban could be that the meta is pretty darn good at the moment. GR Tron, Bloom Titan, Reanimator, Ad Nauseum, Elves, Company, Jund, Twin, Burn, there's plenty of archetypes and Tier 2 decks have been shown to be capable of top 8ing tournaments. But we could finally give Control players a bone.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I think the fear about RUG midrange with BBE and AV isn't cascading into Visions, but the raw power of just having both of them in the same deck.
Lets imagine turn one AV, turn 2 Goyf, turn 3 Courser (or Scooze/Tarmo + Bolt/AV), turn 4 BBE.
That BBE doesn't need to cascade into another AV to be brutal.
Although neither AV nor BBE interact well with Snappy.
How about Sword of the Meek? I haven't seen any reasons NOT to unban it recently. In the past, I've seen that "it will hurt Aggro." While I agree that Sword is very good against Aggro, I believe the setup required still allows Aggro to somewhat do their thing and yes, I know that Lightning Bolt will probably be played in the same deck as Sword.
The only reason against such an unban could be that the meta is pretty darn good at the moment. GR Tron, Bloom Titan, Reanimator, Ad Nauseum, Elves, Company, Jund, Twin, Burn, there's plenty of archetypes and Tier 2 decks have been shown to be capable of top 8ing tournaments. But we could finally give Control players a bone.
The reason why Sword being unbanned hasn't been discussed much recently is that almost everyone agrees that it should be unbanned. It is kind of like Golgari Grave-Troll.
I hope Wizards agrees. I'm speculating pretty hard on Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek. (I know I'm scum.)
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
[quote from="axman »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/584965-current-modern-banlist-discussion-3-23-2015-update?comment=8185"]
I personally think that we will never know for sure if DtT is too good for the format until it's actually given a chance to play it out without Cruise destroying everything. I also don't really think a combo deck being *consistent* is going to necessarily be a problem for the format unless it's consistently too fast to interact with.
DTT is too good for Legacy right now. It would wreck Modern given the time to do that. It was a good proactive ban. Magic bullet and combo lists that can look at 7 cards and keep 2 of them at end of opponent's turn 4 are really hard to deal with even for a diverse meta like the current Modern.
The poster boy for don't let DTT back into Modern is Patrick Dickman. Finding the combo and protection for it or just finding a couple of beaters to wear the opponent down would be really hard to deal with.
Except it didn't wreck modern at the time or even come close and the modern and legacy card pools are not the same. You can't dig into a free force of will + blue card in modern. That's why I'm saying it MAY be true, but we don't have data from modern that says it would have happened. Blue doesn't exactly have any good card advantage spells in modern as is apart from specifically snap caster mage.
I'm ultimately not arguing for a Dig unban right now, though I would like it. I have the ascendancy combo shell collecting dust from having built it then. But from my understanding the opinion that it's too strong for legacy is divisive as well, but even so modern DtT can't do everything it can in legacy, and I'm not convinced that it would wreck modern given our current cardpool and metagame.
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Ok, so you're sitting with RUG Twin staring at Tarmogoyf and Pestermite in your hand along about end of opponent's turn 4. The other cards in the hand and the board state plus your opponent's known options are going to be a major factor in which path you choose to take. DTT is an extraordinarily prescient asset in that situation. It can give you an overload that didn't previously exist and it does it at instant speed. It can inform your decision in ways that no other card in Modern can at this point. It's just very powerful card advantage and selection and it happens at the end of the opponent's turn, making even non tapped out opponents vulnerable to a tempo overrun where they are forced to pick between defending the setup at the end of their turn or the main thrust during your turn.
Now in a blue mirror you don't have a lot of certainty at that point other than you're likely to draw a response from your opponent to whatever you do. Against most lists you're in the driver's seat and it's going to be very hard for them to wrest the wheel back from you. So the meta will begin to trend blue because people don't like being in a situation where they get beat on the stack at the end of their turn.
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Making up random hypothetical scenarios does not overturn actual data that showed that Dig did not make twin the boogie man of the format. As much as you might be afraid of it, UR Delver mopped the floor with twin and it was never close. Plus your completely glossing over the fact that the format has ample hate cards for twin, whether it be decay, rakdos charm, and the new Rending Volley.
Also it should be said, Dig would add decks to the format, not take away, decks like scapeshift would be able to come back in force.
And finally, it was said in a previous post but it bears repeating, you can't compare Dig in Legacy to Dig in Modern, the existence of Force of Will and its implications with Dig turns it into a whole different ball game compared to how tame it is in Modern. And what are we going to do? Never give blue good card draw in Modern ever?
Scapeshift would become a monster with Dig Through Time.
"Never give blue good card draw in Modern ever?"
Dig Through time is not the answer.
Fine, then. Just give us a 2 mana draw 2 card. Blue has a dearth of card-advantage engines in the format, especially compared to other colors (we're super reliant on Snapcaster Mage). This doesn't make objective sense to me, and a lot of it can be pointed towards the idiotic combo decks of the format given as the 'reason' why blue can't do blue things. It's really, really, dumb.
You can't unban Sword of the Meek if Thopter Foundry is legal. That'd break the format in two and nobody would like the half playing Thopter and Sword, least of all the people playing the mirror half the time.
Scapeshift would become a monster with Dig Through Time.
"Never give blue good card draw in Modern ever?"
Dig Through time is not the answer.
Fine, then. Just give us a 2 mana draw 2 card. Blue has a dearth of card-advantage engines in the format, especially compared to other colors (we're super reliant on Snapcaster Mage). This doesn't make objective sense to me, and a lot of it can be pointed towards the idiotic combo decks of the format given as the 'reason' why blue can't do blue things. It's really, really, dumb.
Why does blue need a good draw card? A thing that nobody else has at this point. What is it that makes cheap blue draw necessary given all the other factors in play?
The reason the true eternal formats are completely broken revolve around fast mana or counters and blue draw and selection. Why would anybody want to make Modern into the third blue format in what passes for eternal Magic? Play Legacy if you want to experience that.
This coming btw from somebody who always plays blue even in Modern. I don't want this format turning into 3-4x Snapcaster + 4x Serum Visions + 3-4x Dig Through time and then build from there. That would really suck.
Scapeshift would become a monster with Dig Through Time.
"Never give blue good card draw in Modern ever?"
Dig Through time is not the answer.
Fine, then. Just give us a 2 mana draw 2 card. Blue has a dearth of card-advantage engines in the format, especially compared to other colors (we're super reliant on Snapcaster Mage). This doesn't make objective sense to me, and a lot of it can be pointed towards the idiotic combo decks of the format given as the 'reason' why blue can't do blue things. It's really, really, dumb.
Why does blue need a good draw card? A thing that nobody else has at this point. What is it that makes cheap blue draw necessary given all the other factors in play?
The reason the true eternal formats are completely broken revolve around fast mana or counters and blue draw and selection. Why would anybody want to make Modern into the third blue format in what passes for eternal Magic? Play Legacy if you want to experience that.
This coming btw from somebody who always plays blue even in Modern. I don't want this format turning into 3-4x Snapcaster + 4x Serum Visions + 3-4x Dig Through time and then build from there. That would really suck.
Why does blue need to do blue things? Are you that daft? Everything about blue has been neutered because 'combo decks'. There's nothing too powerful about blue card advantage when every other color in the format has more/better card advantage engines, EXCEPT white, which is really the worst color in modern and does need some love from WoTC (though if they unbanned Stoneforge, that would become better than Snapcaster especially with the Birds). I guess White does have things like Ranger of Eos and Reveillark, but can just be a little too slow or restrictive. Any who, it makes no sense to me for Green to have the best CA tools in the format and also most of the best creatures. I wouldn't actually have a problem with every color having good CA tools, except for the fact, that blue is being singled out and having its good CA tools banned, and WoTC theology on blue is to overcost every card draw/manipulation effect (or just not print them in the first place). Also a bit disingenuous to lump fast mana/free spells with CA tools. They're separate entities.
I would argue that without something like Dig in the format, it almost feels like cards like thoughseize and liliana are just the end all be all when it comes to insta recking opponents in an overwhelmingly mana efficient way. Simply put, cards like that simply restrict what kinds of decks can truly even exist, let alone succeed in this format.
Dig however, and lets be honest TC as well, did nothing as far as KILLING decks and deck building potential, they gave exciting alternatives to the norm while also fulfilling a long standing request that Modern players had which was that blue needed better card draw then cards like think twice.
Those delve cards might have shoved some of the other decks out of the spotlight but its a exaggeration to claim that they were killing decks and breaking the format, and simply put, shoving a couple decks out of the way is not the same as brutal "policing" cards that destroy deck building potential, and the delve card gave players a legitimate way to come back from getting thoughtseized, prior to this, a good TS was basically just gg a lot of times, having some counterplay and having the game go on isn't a bad thing.
You can't unban Sword of the Meek if Thopter Foundry is legal. That'd break the format in two and nobody would like the half playing Thopter and Sword, least of all the people playing the mirror half the time.
Yes, because a two piece combo that dies to commonly played cards and doesn't instantly win the game would ruin the format! Oh wait.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
Card draw doesn't breaks combo decks in modern.
However, card selection like Ponder or Dig Through Time actually beneffit more combo decks than control decks.
Raw card draw is actually stronger in control than in mos combo decks, but it can't be cheap enough because then you end up actually powering up Storm or Delver.
The only kind of draw spells that would benefit control and not combo or Delver are slow draw spells like AV or Jace. But then you can end up with midrange abominations stomping you with Tarmogoyfs and Lilianas as well as those draw spells.
I believe the answer for control in modern are broader, better answers.
Innoceny Blood, Counterspell, Toxic Deluge.
While Counterspells could benefit Splinter Twin or Scapeshift, it pushes them further into control territory, and control decks beneffit more (Counterspell won't prevent that Abrupt Decay).
Scapeshify definitely likes Counterspell, but it can be argued that Remand is even better for that deck ad is it is right now, and every control player is happier with counterspell than with the lame at lategame Mana Leak or Remand.
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Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
</blockquote>
Ok, so you're sitting with RUG Twin staring at Tarmogoyf and Pestermite in your hand along about end of opponent's turn 4. The other cards in the hand and the board state plus your opponent's known options are going to be a major factor in which path you choose to take. DTT is an extraordinarily prescient asset in that situation. It can give you an overload that didn't previously exist and it does it at instant speed. It can inform your decision in ways that no other card in Modern can at this point. It's just very powerful card advantage and selection and it happens at the end of the opponent's turn, making even non tapped out opponents vulnerable to a tempo overrun where they are forced to pick between defending the setup at the end of their turn or the main thrust during your turn.
Now in a blue mirror you don't have a lot of certainty at that point other than you're likely to draw a response from your opponent to whatever you do. Against most lists you're in the driver's seat and it's going to be very hard for them to wrest the wheel back from you. So the meta will begin to trend blue because people don't like being in a situation where they get beat on the stack at the end of their turn.
The ONLY way I could see a twin ban is if you unbanned powerful blue spells (jace, brainstorm, etc). Unfortunately reactive blue decks are not possible in modern at the moment. If you remove the combo completely a huge part of the meta falls off with no equivalent replacement
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
So basically, your argument is that it should be banned because... it's a good deck. Seriously. Everything you said? It's why it's a good deck. It's not why it's an overpowered deck (it isn't) or why it needs a ban. So despite your claim it's "cancerous" you haven't done anything to indicate why other than that... it's a decent deck. Better go on a banning spree then, because obviously good decks aren't allowed!
The card is fine. The only question is whether it would put Twin over the top. I have doubts about that, but it's not problematic on its own.
I suppose someone could argue Twin should be banned so that Ancestral Vision can be unbanned, but such swap bans are highly questionable.
Funny, you support a Twin ban because decks don't "need" Twin, then support a Bloodbraid Elf ban while admitting Jund doesn't need it.
And exactly why Jund is required to have some kind of 2-for-1 card is... unclear. You don't actually say why, you just say "hey, other decks have it, so this should also!" Maybe one of the reasons Jund isn't completely overpowered is because it doesn't have those things?
And, um... what are the Storm decks this enables that are worse than the current Storm decks? Seriously, this makes no sense. The Storm decks that do exist would absolutely play Seething Song and be better as a result. It's like saying that if you give someone money, they have less money than they did before.
I will agree Sword of the Meek has little reason to be banned.
Have you played Twin? Have you played against it? The reason I ask is because I have played Twin for about a year, and the only time it is an 'lol oops I win' is if you are playing someone new to the format or someone with a silly home brew.
Every deck (for the most part) needs to pack removal if they are going to play the fair game. That is just part of Magic. Saying you have to build your decks around beating Twin is a bit of an exaggeration. Yes Twin Combo folds to lots of removal. So does every other creature deck. So if you build a deck for modern, and you did a bit of research on what is in the format, then you will be fine against Twin.
SB hate for Twin carries over to other decks as well. Spellskite is a great answer to Twin, as well as to Infect and Boggles. It is colorless and any deck can play it. Literally every color has access to removal that is good against multiple decks, not just Twin.
The fact that you want to ban Twin and unban Bloodbraid is a little silly I think. Bloodbraid will make Jund, currently the new hotness in Modern, Tier 0.5 again, even without Deathrite. Bloodbraid Elf into Liliana or Tarmogoyf is insane value. Plus if they unbanned Bloodbraid along with Ancestral Vision, then RUG Midrange becomes the best deck ever.
Well, people would just move to the next combo deck...
oh wait. Oops.
It would be fun watching the Twin players listen to "You can still play the deck with Kiki-Jiki and do fine". Just like Storm players got to hear "You can live without Seething Song, you have Ascension and Electromancer."
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
I'm unsure if that would really be that much of a thing, RUG midrange that is.
Banning twin would also severally ban control. Plus it is a highly interactive combo. No ban necessary.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Why are we discussing a BBE unban when Jund was 10% of the day 2 metagame and is currently at about 8% of the overall metagame and exceeding Abzan? Why does that deck need any help? Doesn't that seem pretty ridiculously risky?
Because someone brought it up, along with banning Twin, unbanning Sword of the Meek, and unban Ancestral Vision. In other words, that last 40 pages gained enough sentience to sign up for an account.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Some people really like cascading BBE into Lilly I guess.
I think Modern is capable of handling BBE in a vacuum, but it really isn't necessary to the metagame and with Jund having risen up, any unbannings could be better suited to propping up dead archetypes and not strengthening already good ones.
The real problem with Bloodbraid Elf and Ancestral Vision is that they could give Jund and Twin too much of a boost, respectively.
The only reason against such an unban could be that the meta is pretty darn good at the moment. GR Tron, Bloom Titan, Reanimator, Ad Nauseum, Elves, Company, Jund, Twin, Burn, there's plenty of archetypes and Tier 2 decks have been shown to be capable of top 8ing tournaments. But we could finally give Control players a bone.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Lets imagine turn one AV, turn 2 Goyf, turn 3 Courser (or Scooze/Tarmo + Bolt/AV), turn 4 BBE.
That BBE doesn't need to cascade into another AV to be brutal.
Although neither AV nor BBE interact well with Snappy.
The reason why Sword being unbanned hasn't been discussed much recently is that almost everyone agrees that it should be unbanned. It is kind of like Golgari Grave-Troll.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)</blockquote>
Making up random hypothetical scenarios does not overturn actual data that showed that Dig did not make twin the boogie man of the format. As much as you might be afraid of it, UR Delver mopped the floor with twin and it was never close. Plus your completely glossing over the fact that the format has ample hate cards for twin, whether it be decay, rakdos charm, and the new Rending Volley.
Also it should be said, Dig would add decks to the format, not take away, decks like scapeshift would be able to come back in force.
And finally, it was said in a previous post but it bears repeating, you can't compare Dig in Legacy to Dig in Modern, the existence of Force of Will and its implications with Dig turns it into a whole different ball game compared to how tame it is in Modern. And what are we going to do? Never give blue good card draw in Modern ever?
"Never give blue good card draw in Modern ever?"
Dig Through time is not the answer.
Fine, then. Just give us a 2 mana draw 2 card. Blue has a dearth of card-advantage engines in the format, especially compared to other colors (we're super reliant on Snapcaster Mage). This doesn't make objective sense to me, and a lot of it can be pointed towards the idiotic combo decks of the format given as the 'reason' why blue can't do blue things. It's really, really, dumb.
Why does blue need a good draw card? A thing that nobody else has at this point. What is it that makes cheap blue draw necessary given all the other factors in play?
The reason the true eternal formats are completely broken revolve around fast mana or counters and blue draw and selection. Why would anybody want to make Modern into the third blue format in what passes for eternal Magic? Play Legacy if you want to experience that.
This coming btw from somebody who always plays blue even in Modern. I don't want this format turning into 3-4x Snapcaster + 4x Serum Visions + 3-4x Dig Through time and then build from there. That would really suck.
Why does blue need to do blue things? Are you that daft? Everything about blue has been neutered because 'combo decks'. There's nothing too powerful about blue card advantage when every other color in the format has more/better card advantage engines, EXCEPT white, which is really the worst color in modern and does need some love from WoTC (though if they unbanned Stoneforge, that would become better than Snapcaster especially with the Birds). I guess White does have things like Ranger of Eos and Reveillark, but can just be a little too slow or restrictive. Any who, it makes no sense to me for Green to have the best CA tools in the format and also most of the best creatures. I wouldn't actually have a problem with every color having good CA tools, except for the fact, that blue is being singled out and having its good CA tools banned, and WoTC theology on blue is to overcost every card draw/manipulation effect (or just not print them in the first place). Also a bit disingenuous to lump fast mana/free spells with CA tools. They're separate entities.
Dig however, and lets be honest TC as well, did nothing as far as KILLING decks and deck building potential, they gave exciting alternatives to the norm while also fulfilling a long standing request that Modern players had which was that blue needed better card draw then cards like think twice.
Those delve cards might have shoved some of the other decks out of the spotlight but its a exaggeration to claim that they were killing decks and breaking the format, and simply put, shoving a couple decks out of the way is not the same as brutal "policing" cards that destroy deck building potential, and the delve card gave players a legitimate way to come back from getting thoughtseized, prior to this, a good TS was basically just gg a lot of times, having some counterplay and having the game go on isn't a bad thing.
Yes, because a two piece combo that dies to commonly played cards and doesn't instantly win the game would ruin the format! Oh wait.
However, card selection like Ponder or Dig Through Time actually beneffit more combo decks than control decks.
Raw card draw is actually stronger in control than in mos combo decks, but it can't be cheap enough because then you end up actually powering up Storm or Delver.
The only kind of draw spells that would benefit control and not combo or Delver are slow draw spells like AV or Jace. But then you can end up with midrange abominations stomping you with Tarmogoyfs and Lilianas as well as those draw spells.
I believe the answer for control in modern are broader, better answers.
Innoceny Blood, Counterspell, Toxic Deluge.
While Counterspells could benefit Splinter Twin or Scapeshift, it pushes them further into control territory, and control decks beneffit more (Counterspell won't prevent that Abrupt Decay).
Scapeshify definitely likes Counterspell, but it can be argued that Remand is even better for that deck ad is it is right now, and every control player is happier with counterspell than with the lame at lategame Mana Leak or Remand.