Look I'm going to be honest I think Bloom is outside of the format guidelines for wizards. Between leyline, summer bloom and hive mind I think it is too fast and 'difficult' to interact with. It is consistently overperforming and I'm pretty confident that this GP season should show that the deck needs to go.
This is so blatantly untrue, and it gets repeated in this thread so much its unreal.
For Amulet Bloom to go off, you can stop it with any of the following:
Discard, creature removal, counterspells, land destruction or artifact removal. Some combination of these cards are in any good Modern deck. Sure, having an opening hand of:
Leyline, Amulet, bounceland, untapped land, Hive Mind, Pact, Summerbloom is hard to beat, but jesus, that is a perfect 7 out of 8 cards (assuming on the play). The odds of that hand (and remember leyline has to be in the first 7, cant be the 8th) is insanely hard. I have played 100s of matches with the deck and done that twice. The number of times I have had to mulligan or started the game with no permanents is much higher (hell, I had to mulligan to 4 once, 5 three times and 6 twice in 5 rounds today alone).
But whats the point of arguing; people will watch the deck do well once in a tournament, never playing the deck or seeing the other pilots of the deck 0-3 drop because they got paired against Blood Moon decks or their deck beat them.
Except that it hasn't done well in just one tournament, or did you forget about the modern pro tour? I don't think the format needs any more bans, but it's blatantly false to say that Bloom is inconsistent when CVM can 8-0 the modern portion like it's no big deal. Just to reiterate, I don't think Amulet Bloom needs anything banned as of now. I think Amulet Bloom will eventually be the dredge deck of modern. It will stomp people who aren't prepared, get stomped by people who are, and make new players question reality.
I personally hate bloom because it doesnt play magic it plays something else,interaction is fun,im glad bloom isnt tier 1 and not played by more by ppl cuz if it was id just play jund and twin and nothing else and so would alot of others. hmm does that hurt format diversity much? ask yourself this.....
Except that it hasn't done well in just one tournament, or did you forget about the modern pro tour? I don't think the format needs any more bans, but it's blatantly false to say that Bloom is inconsistent when CVM can 8-0 the modern portion like it's no big deal. Just to reiterate, I don't think Amulet Bloom needs anything banned as of now. I think Amulet Bloom will eventually be the dredge deck of modern. It will stomp people who aren't prepared, get stomped by people who are, and make new players question reality.
I wouldn't compare amulet to dredge, not even close. Dredge offers virtually no interaction pre board, amulet offers plenty of interaction.
But whats the point of arguing; people will watch the deck do well once in a tournament, never playing the deck or seeing the other pilots of the deck 0-3 drop because they got paired against Blood Moon decks or their deck beat them.
Well, see, here's the thing. You can say it really isn't that consistent with its crazy fast wins, that there's some disruption that's very effective against it, that it has its share of really bad matchups (e.g. Twin), etc., but... that's of little comfort for the person who did face off against an Amulet player who had the nut and was able to get a Primeval Titan into play before their opponent even took their turn.
But whats the point of arguing; people will watch the deck do well once in a tournament, never playing the deck or seeing the other pilots of the deck 0-3 drop because they got paired against Blood Moon decks or their deck beat them.
Well, see, here's the thing. You can say it really isn't that consistent with its crazy fast wins, that there's some disruption that's very effective against it, that it has its share of really bad matchups (e.g. Twin), etc., but... that's of little comfort for the person who did face off against an Amulet player who had the nut and was able to get a Primeval Titan into play before their opponent even took their turn.
While it sucks to be that person, that is no reason to ban a deck....
Hell if that is the only test; ban any deck that you have lost because their nut draw just destroyed you, than I would be in here saying that Skred Red should be banned bc turn 1 blood moon is impossible to beat. But that would be insane....
A deck's power level can NOT be judge solely on its nuts draws. Goryo's Breach deck can kill turn 1, but thats only on the nut draws. If anyone watched Joe play that deck on camera, you can see why it should be banned. There was a match that he lost both games solely on his deck choosing not to win. That happens just as much, if not more than the nut draws that ppl cry about
Except that it hasn't done well in just one tournament, or did you forget about the modern pro tour? I don't think the format needs any more bans, but it's blatantly false to say that Bloom is inconsistent when CVM can 8-0 the modern portion like it's no big deal. Just to reiterate, I don't think Amulet Bloom needs anything banned as of now. I think Amulet Bloom will eventually be the dredge deck of modern. It will stomp people who aren't prepared, get stomped by people who are, and make new players question reality.
I wouldn't compare amulet to dredge, not even close. Dredge offers virtually no interaction pre board, amulet offers plenty of interaction.
Do not delete warned posts: this is against the forum rules.
-ktkenshinx-
Preparation is not difficult. Unlike dredge, it doesn't require very specific tools to beat it really. Answers are easily maindecked. That's why your comparison is bad, and certainly not deserving of a stupid passive aggressive graph.
Sorry, no joke. Combo has been and always will be degenerate for interactive magic, which is the direction WotC has chosen to take the game. Now I dont have a problem with decks that utilize combos as a means to gain interactive advantage, like the new CC decks or Twin, both of which take a few turns to get online or threaten and also allow the opponent to interact in a variety of ways. Hey,there's always legacy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Likewise, for people who don't like Combo decks at all, there's Standard.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Sorry, no joke. Combo has been and always will be degenerate for interactive magic, which is the direction WotC has chosen to take the game. Now I dont have a problem with decks that utilize combos as a means to gain interactive advantage, like the new CC decks or Twin, both of which take a few turns to get online or threaten and also allow the opponent to interact in a variety of ways. Hey,there's always legacy.
I agree with this personally. There is without a doubt enough design space for an interesting, varied, deep, and competitive game without dedicated combo decks like Storm, Ad Naus, Bloom, ect. If Wizards made the game for me, they'd eliminate combo from modern.
That said, I don't think they should make the game for me, as everyone has stuff they like to play. As long as they can balance things and keep them fair, I think it's totally fine to allow combo to exist and be reasonably competitive.
I really would like them to shoot a hole in Bloom Titan, though. I've played against the deck plenty of games, and while it does sometimes "lose to itself", it's just not a deck that fits in with what modern is supposed to be. It's just hard to interact with (yes, it can be done by many/most decks game one, but not as easily as any fair decks: even storm is much easier to interact with). It can win with a respectable amount of consistency by turn 3, sometimes on turn 2.
I think banning something, Bloom or otherwise, should be considered.
As for unbans, I'm all aboard the Tree of Tales unban hype train! Kommand hurts affinity rather badly, and having 4 more artifact lands wouldn't bust the deck wide open. It'd be interesting to see how they'd adapt it into the deck. Worth considering, at least.
I think the safest cards to ban would be Hivemind or Amulet of Vigor from the Bloom deck.
Hivemind does nothing to the format except add a level of complexity and auto win where most decks cannot compete. Along with amulet, both intend to do unfair things immediately upon resolution in a fashion faster than turn 4. As long as one of them goes (preferably Hivemind in my opinion) the deck could be combatted more effectively and hardly auto win pre-turn 4.
I think the safest cards to ban would be Hivemind or Amulet of Vigor from the Bloom deck.
Hivemind does nothing to the format except add a level of complexity and auto win where most decks cannot compete. Along with amulet, both intend to do unfair things immediately upon resolution in a fashion faster than turn 4. As long as one of them goes (preferably Hivemind in my opinion) the deck could be combatted more effectively and hardly auto win pre-turn 4.
I have tried the goldfish by myself, amulet is not a to win pre turn 4. I would say just about two tired of the time.
I am against banning anything at this time. Bloom is certainty a good deck, but right now I think its ok. If it goes on to place or win in a majority in events I may change my tune. That being said I think if anything were banned, I'd rather it be Hivemind, I'd rather have a linear deck like Bloom one have one axis to win on, instead of turn two Hivemind+Pact back up, or turn two Titan.
I was just thinking.. isn't Ancient Stirrings turning into kind of a problem card? This is just a 1-mana cantrip in green instead of blue. Its power level seems comparable to Preordain, at least in the decks that it's in (Amulet/Tron).
I was just thinking.. isn't Ancient Stirrings turning into kind of a problem card? This is just a 1-mana cantrip in green instead of blue. Its power level seems comparable to Preordain, at least in the decks that it's in (Amulet/Tron).
No. I wanted to call this the worst ban suggestion in recent memory, but I forgot about the travesty that was the last two pages.
I am continually reminded that people just don't seem to understand the banlist's purpose. It's job is to promote format diversity and stop decks from violating the turn 4 rule. A Stirrings ban contributes to neither of those. Unlike Ponder/Preordain, the questionable comparisons, the card is only used in two decks. One of those decks is totally fine, even underrepresented. It has been that way for years. The other deck may actually need a ban, but the problem with that deck is not the cantripping. If anything, it's the speed itself and the lack of meaningful interaction points. That's why a Bloom (i.e. a "ritual") or a Hive Mind (i.e. the hardest interaction point in the deck) are much better options.
No. I wanted to call this the worst ban suggestion in recent memory, but I forgot about the travesty that was the last two pages.
Every time I see you post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
I was just thinking.. isn't Ancient Stirrings turning into kind of a problem card?
I don't think you were actually "thinking" at all if that was your conclusion.
This is just a 1-mana cantrip in green instead of blue. Its power level seems comparable to Preordain, at least in the decks that it's in (Amulet/Tron).
And Galvanic Blast is better than Lightning Bolt in the deck it's used in. Shall we ban that, as Lightning Bolt is already extraordinarily powerful (and according to some, too much so)?
Known predator (Gx tron) does will in a meta full of decks it preyed upon (Jund/Junk and other grindy midrange decks). Seriously, Ancient Stirrings, next it'll be Sylvan Scrying or Expedition Map because they make Tron too consistent
Lol ban Hive Mind? Speck drew suspicion to himself when he didn't Pact of Negation a Pod while he had Hive Mind in play. I say keep Hive Mind so we have a good anti-cheater early warning system
Banning Hive Mind doesn't stop the deck from hitting 6 mana on turn 2, which is the root of the fast wins. So ok, maybe now you won't auto-lose to Hive Mind + Pact, would you rather lose to a turn 2 Wurmcoil Engine instead? How about a turn 2 Through the Breach into Emrakul? (Yes, I've seen someone play that in an early Amulet deck, he also had hideaway lands to cheat in his Emrakul as plan C.)
I don't understand how everyone can agree with the storm bans but are ok with Amulet bloom, the hivemind kill is just as interactive as the past in flame/PA kill while the quick titan is similar to a quick electromancer kill. More over the first titan gains such advantage by merely resolving that usually a second one follows quickly, while the only real creature removal for prime time is path and terminate which are quite narrow.
I'm serious the way Wizards have handled the format I don't see how amulet can be allowed to thrive. Once it hits a reasonable meta percentage it should get banned.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I personally hate bloom because it doesnt play magic it plays something else,interaction is fun,im glad bloom isnt tier 1 and not played by more by ppl cuz if it was id just play jund and twin and nothing else and so would alot of others. hmm does that hurt format diversity much? ask yourself this.....
decks playing:
none
I wouldn't compare amulet to dredge, not even close. Dredge offers virtually no interaction pre board, amulet offers plenty of interaction.
While it sucks to be that person, that is no reason to ban a deck....
Hell if that is the only test; ban any deck that you have lost because their nut draw just destroyed you, than I would be in here saying that Skred Red should be banned bc turn 1 blood moon is impossible to beat. But that would be insane....
A deck's power level can NOT be judge solely on its nuts draws. Goryo's Breach deck can kill turn 1, but thats only on the nut draws. If anyone watched Joe play that deck on camera, you can see why it should be banned. There was a match that he lost both games solely on his deck choosing not to win. That happens just as much, if not more than the nut draws that ppl cry about
Do not delete warned posts: this is against the forum rules.
-ktkenshinx-
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I agree with this personally. There is without a doubt enough design space for an interesting, varied, deep, and competitive game without dedicated combo decks like Storm, Ad Naus, Bloom, ect. If Wizards made the game for me, they'd eliminate combo from modern.
That said, I don't think they should make the game for me, as everyone has stuff they like to play. As long as they can balance things and keep them fair, I think it's totally fine to allow combo to exist and be reasonably competitive.
I really would like them to shoot a hole in Bloom Titan, though. I've played against the deck plenty of games, and while it does sometimes "lose to itself", it's just not a deck that fits in with what modern is supposed to be. It's just hard to interact with (yes, it can be done by many/most decks game one, but not as easily as any fair decks: even storm is much easier to interact with). It can win with a respectable amount of consistency by turn 3, sometimes on turn 2.
I think banning something, Bloom or otherwise, should be considered.
As for unbans, I'm all aboard the Tree of Tales unban hype train! Kommand hurts affinity rather badly, and having 4 more artifact lands wouldn't bust the deck wide open. It'd be interesting to see how they'd adapt it into the deck. Worth considering, at least.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Hivemind does nothing to the format except add a level of complexity and auto win where most decks cannot compete. Along with amulet, both intend to do unfair things immediately upon resolution in a fashion faster than turn 4. As long as one of them goes (preferably Hivemind in my opinion) the deck could be combatted more effectively and hardly auto win pre-turn 4.
I have tried the goldfish by myself, amulet is not a to win pre turn 4. I would say just about two tired of the time.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
i really expect some blue moon or another blood moon maindeck in the GP t8.
edit: oops, BtB dont stop amulet
No. I wanted to call this the worst ban suggestion in recent memory, but I forgot about the travesty that was the last two pages.
I am continually reminded that people just don't seem to understand the banlist's purpose. It's job is to promote format diversity and stop decks from violating the turn 4 rule. A Stirrings ban contributes to neither of those. Unlike Ponder/Preordain, the questionable comparisons, the card is only used in two decks. One of those decks is totally fine, even underrepresented. It has been that way for years. The other deck may actually need a ban, but the problem with that deck is not the cantripping. If anything, it's the speed itself and the lack of meaningful interaction points. That's why a Bloom (i.e. a "ritual") or a Hive Mind (i.e. the hardest interaction point in the deck) are much better options.
Every time I see you post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
And Galvanic Blast is better than Lightning Bolt in the deck it's used in. Shall we ban that, as Lightning Bolt is already extraordinarily powerful (and according to some, too much so)?
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
The format is fine as it is. No need for bans and/or unbans at all.
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678The format is getting better, but I still feel like there is too many non-interactive decks.
Banning Hive Mind doesn't stop the deck from hitting 6 mana on turn 2, which is the root of the fast wins. So ok, maybe now you won't auto-lose to Hive Mind + Pact, would you rather lose to a turn 2 Wurmcoil Engine instead? How about a turn 2 Through the Breach into Emrakul? (Yes, I've seen someone play that in an early Amulet deck, he also had hideaway lands to cheat in his Emrakul as plan C.)
What would they ban, if they deem it banworthy? Allow me to bring up a simple comparison:
Second Sunrise <-> Summer Bloom
Faith's Reward <-> Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Open the Vaults <-> Journey of Discovery
Go figure.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
No it is not. Who claims that?
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678I'm serious the way Wizards have handled the format I don't see how amulet can be allowed to thrive. Once it hits a reasonable meta percentage it should get banned.