The entire deck revolves around a few select cards that it is digging into its library every turn to find, devotes its entire deck to abusing, and can't do anything without.
Which of these cards are you referring to? Bridge? Ichorid? Narcomoeba? The dredgers? You can do without some of them. I've had to do it many times.
The entire deck revolves around a few select cards that it is digging into its library every turn to find, devotes its entire deck to abusing, and can't do anything without.
Which of these cards are you referring to? Bridge? Ichorid? Narcomoeba? The dredgers? You can do without some of them. I've had to do it many times.
Bridge, Narcomoeba, and Ichorid. How often can you win without any of those? Because the entire deck relying on a game-winning combos involving those 3 cards still counts as a combo deck/
The entire deck revolves around a few select cards that it is digging into its library every turn to find, devotes its entire deck to abusing, and can't do anything without.
Which of these cards are you referring to? Bridge? Ichorid? Narcomoeba? The dredgers? You can do without some of them. I've had to do it many times.
Bridge, Narcomoeba, and Ichorid. How often can you win without any of those? Because the entire deck relying on a game-winning combos involving those 3 cards still counts as a combo deck/
To continue this logic: how often do you win in, say, a Delver deck without your creatures.
How often do you win without any of those?
Note that I'm aware of the absurdity of this comparison. I'm trying to point out that merely relying on some cards to hit the field and win the game for you does not a combo deck make.
Edit: I should clarify that I concede that Dredge is, in its heart, a mostly combo deck. However, I would say that it's a combo shell trying to execute an aggro game plan. It's different from Twin in that Twin just kills you in one go once it assembles its combo. Dredge, however, tends to build a number of pieces over time (over time being 1-3ish turns) and just hits their opponent with them until they die. It feels very much like an aggro deck that uses an alternate method (in this case, the Dredge and card draw synergy) to deploy its threats and gain card advantage, which is where the combo aspect comes in.
No they are morons because they are tennis fans arguing in a football forum. Jees, follow the analogy...lol.
He's not saying they are right or wrong he's saying they are arguing for the wrong thing in the wrong place.
Except that the "football" stadium doesn't inherently need to be a football stadium that you see today. In this world, the lines between different sports are blurred and features of the sports don't always remain the same. It, like many other stadiums in this world, can change over time. Those people are only "harmful morons" if your opinion is different than their opinion on which direction you'd like the sport to move.
In the analogy you should keep campaigning for a magical tennis stadium. You shouldn't tell the football fans "We want a tennis stadium so you can't have a football stadium". What you have been leaving out in the analogy is that there are no other football stadiums either. The Modern players like Modern. If it becomes Legacy-Lite, it will no longer be Modern and there won't be any format for the "football fans". So why should your lack of an "appropriately sized stadium" mean that none of the people who like "football" can have fun?
Ah look Valanarch gets it. As always he appears out of nowhere and states things how they are.
Also guys fully-powered Dredge isn't anything. It's not even a Magic deck playing Magic. It's something else entirely.
The reason why it's such an abomination and hated.
dredge is and has always been the x-files. in short ***** just happens in that deck. sometimes it grinds with ichorids and ghasts and sometimes it just flips the library in the graveyard and says i win because of reasons.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
No, not "at its heart, a combo deck." Dredge is a combo deck, period. There is no room for equivocation here. Its how the deck operates, its how the deck wins. Calling it anything else is dishonest or naive at best.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
No they are morons because they are tennis fans arguing in a football forum. Jees, follow the analogy...lol.
He's not saying they are right or wrong he's saying they are arguing for the wrong thing in the wrong place.
Except that the "football" stadium doesn't inherently need to be a football stadium that you see today. In this world, the lines between different sports are blurred and features of the sports don't always remain the same. It, like many other stadiums in this world, can change over time. Those people are only "harmful morons" if your opinion is different than their opinion on which direction you'd like the sport to move.
I'm
In the analogy you should keep campaigning for a magical tennis stadium. You shouldn't tell the football fans "We want a tennis stadium so you can't have a football stadium". What you have been leaving out in the analogy is that there are no other football stadiums either. The Modern players like Modern. If it becomes Legacy-Lite, it will no longer be Modern and there won't be any format for the "football fans". So why should your lack of an "appropriately sized stadium" mean that none of the people who like "football" can have fun?
Ah look Valanarch gets it. As always he appears out of nowhere and states things how they are.
Also guys fully-powered Dredge isn't anything. It's not even a Magic deck playing Magic. It's something else entirely.
The reason why it's such an abomination and hated.
Yea its basically like a deck from another game. I make fun of it and say its a ygo deck playing against decks with the restrictions in the magic world. I would not call it a combo deck but it certainly is an uninteractive deck.
I really don't get the Legacy lite discussion. Especially since Modern will never be a Legacy lite format, so the lingo is misleading. Discussing who's most entitled of their opinions is ridiculous. The format changes constantly, it's not like Modern is a fixed and static format. Everyone wants it to move in a certain direction and everyone is in the same boat when it comes to discussing the format's future and everyone is entitled. People should't be muted because they have different opinions than the majority as long as Wizards favors the majority when it comes to making banning decisions.
No they are morons because they are tennis fans arguing in a football forum. Jees, follow the analogy...lol.
He's not saying they are right or wrong he's saying they are arguing for the wrong thing in the wrong place.
Except that the "football" stadium doesn't inherently need to be a football stadium that you see today. In this world, the lines between different sports are blurred and features of the sports don't always remain the same. It, like many other stadiums in this world, can change over time. Those people are only "harmful morons" if your opinion is different than their opinion on which direction you'd like the sport to move.
I'm
In the analogy you should keep campaigning for a magical tennis stadium. You shouldn't tell the football fans "We want a tennis stadium so you can't have a football stadium". What you have been leaving out in the analogy is that there are no other football stadiums either. The Modern players like Modern. If it becomes Legacy-Lite, it will no longer be Modern and there won't be any format for the "football fans". So why should your lack of an "appropriately sized stadium" mean that none of the people who like "football" can have fun?
Ah look Valanarch gets it. As always he appears out of nowhere and states things how they are.
Also guys fully-powered Dredge isn't anything. It's not even a Magic deck playing Magic. It's something else entirely.
The reason why it's such an abomination and hated.
Yea its basically like a deck from another game. I make fun of it and say its a ygo deck playing against decks with the restrictions in the magic world. I would not call it a combo deck but it certainly is an uninteractive deck.
ugh I hate uninteractive/little interaction decks they should just not exist. modern would be a much better place lol
No, not "at its heart, a combo deck." Dredge is a combo deck, period. There is no room for equivocation here. Its how the deck operates, its how the deck wins. Calling it anything else is dishonest or naive at best.
You haven't played Dredge much have you?
It's always been an aggro/combo deck. The only reason that it is referred to more as a combo deck is because it's the more common way of winning. Take this from someone who's played Legacy Dredge in some form for well over 3 years.
Well now listen son. I picked up dredge in 2008. I put it down in 2011 and have had it in my deck library ever since. You really wanna talk to me about the ins and outs of a deck I put together 4 years before you picked it up? Furthermore it is combo, period. Don't tell me its some hybridization because it uses creatures to kill. I call BS. Combo is defined by decks that look for and need to assemble certain particular cards in a sequence in order to be competitive. Little hint there bud, every combo strategy is aggressive. They very idea of combo is aggression at its purest, but that does not make it be an aggro deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
You really wanna talk to me about the ins and outs of a deck I put together 4 years before you picked it up?
How long ago you put it together means jack ***** compared to how long someone has been playing it. You've both been playing it for three years, but he's been playing it far more recently than you have.
Don't tell me its some hybridization because it uses creatures to kill. I call BS. Combo is defined by decks that look for and need to assemble certain particular cards in a sequence in order to be competitive.
So is Delver of Secrets->Instant/Sorcery a combo then? Cool.
Another question for you: is Twin a combo deck? Obviously the answer should be yes. But would you call it a combo deck when it wins with Bolts and Snapcasters/Pestermites? No, that would be tempo. Thus Twin is Tempo-Combo. Dredge uses a combo shell (abusing mechanics to gain an advantage) to utilize an aggro game plan (play small dudes over a period of time and beat down). Thus Combo-Aggro.
Also damn son, you really need to tone down on the condescension. It's getting all over my sneakers.
Can we just have everyone watch a youtube video of a dredge deck winning and stop talking about what it is/isn't. Clearly one party has only looked at the list.
Well I've played it on and off for 7 years. And besides that, the decks strategy has not changed. Furthermore it is simply listed as combo in the legacy forum so I will defer to them. On top of that, very very very few magic decks are able to be classified purely as one thing or another. Its an imperfect system but adding ambiguity to that system doesn't help. The easiest way to to determine if a deck is a combo deck or not is to look for silver bullets. If it has them, it's likely a combo deck.
And it doesn't matter how a deck ultimately wins. What defines a deck is its strategy going into a match. A combo deck that has an alt win is what I would call a good combo deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Hey, I appreciate this bit of insight. I really do. What my point is though is it seems everybody has their own definition of what things are and ultimately it defeats the purpose of having a definition, ya know? Magic, like life is rarely black and white.
I would say Dredge is combo in the same vein that Burn is combo. Where as, it's not necessarily just a couple cards, like say twin or amulet, but rather the entire deck is designed to be non interactive and as quickly as possible will reduce your opponent to zero. And I know the Combo vs Aggro Burn debate is about as contentious as it can get too. But aggro in its most simplistic form is combo. I think thats where a lot of ambiguity comes from. What brings aggro away from combo is its ability to interact. So now, instead of only worrying about reducing your opponent to zero, you also are concerned with your own permanents and your own life total.
As to your concerns regarding Collected Company. The only real concern is if decks start pushing the 15-20% meta mark with it. And there are some solid decks between them and 10% even. It'll likely be fine for the next year or two. Then, who knows, its another card that will only get more broken as more cards are printed.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
But unlike burn it is not trying to achieve a critical mass of redundant pieces (as aggro decks due) it wants very specific pieces to function as intended.
IDK, I think you could say all the dredge creatures are redundancies, I mean obviously not to the degree that burn wants bolts, but dredge is dig dig dig. I honestly think there could be some kind of variation here with combo where as you have modular combo, like Twin and amulet, and the combo deck, where as your entire deck works directly with your combo and is not looking for any kind of interaction whatsoever.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Well now listen son. I picked up dredge in 2008. I put it down in 2011 and have had it in my deck library ever since.
But seriously, let's stop trying to classify a Legacy deck and go back to whining about how the central card of the deck we just lost to should be banned.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Here's a good hint in identifying combo decks. If you can describe a deck as "going off," its pretty likely a combo deck. And where do those aggressive attacking zombies come from?
Ok, when dredge starts running counterspells or some other card to protect its Zombie army, then I would consider it closer to an aggro strategy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
But seriously, let's stop trying to classify a Legacy deck and go back to whining about how the central card of the deck we just lost to should be banned.
Agree. This conversation has gone on too long as is: I was hoping the Legacy stuff would die down and we could return to Modern bans, but now I see that's not happening without some intervention.
Keep it on Modern bans and Modern cards. It's fine to talk about deck classifications (so long as they directly pertain to Modern banlist issues), but keep it focused on the topic at hand. Also, keep it civil.
But unlike burn it is not trying to achieve a critical mass of redundant pieces (as aggro decks due) it wants very specific pieces to function as intended.
To be fair, dredge is a far more "redundant" combo deck than other combo decks; in many ways it's like affinity, winning by swarming the board with some degenerate mechanism that fair decks can't race, occasionally blowing the opponent to pieces with some combo, and dies abruptly in the face of hate.
Something that comes to mind regarding combo: competitive legacy combo decks aim for turn 3 kills, not bizarre spanish-inquisition style kills people seem to think are running rampant through legacy. Note: turn 3 is just one less than the turn 4 of modern. That being said, I wouldn't actually want things like ANT and TES in modern, not because they are non-interactive (modern can interact with them), but because it requires far more understanding of combo from the person across the table. Splinter twin is a nice simple combo that players can follow. TES is not. I think splinter twin is boring to play against (even if my deck is "favored" in the matchup), but I understand why it is more acceptable, and it only partly has to do with speed.
Of all the things that could come from looking at legacy, I think the abundance of control in legacy is striking. Many of the top tier decks (DnT, miracles, shardless BUG) are CONTROL decks, not combo. Exactly how dangerous would thopter-sword be in modern? Or counter-top? Jace? What would it take to make DnT viable in modern? There is an irony in this discussion that people think legacy is all about combo, but the legacy metagame has a strong listing for control, a category modern is decidedly lacking in.
But unlike burn it is not trying to achieve a critical mass of redundant pieces (as aggro decks due) it wants very specific pieces to function as intended.
To be fair, dredge is a far more "redundant" combo deck than other combo decks; in many ways it's like affinity, winning by swarming the board with some degenerate mechanism that fair decks can't race, occasionally blowing the opponent to pieces with some combo, and dies abruptly in the face of hate.
Something that comes to mind regarding combo: competitive legacy combo decks aim for turn 3 kills, not bizarre spanish-inquisition style kills people seem to think are running rampant through legacy. Note: turn 3 is just one less than the turn 4 of modern. That being said, I wouldn't actually want things like ANT and TES in modern, not because they are non-interactive (modern can interact with them), but because it requires far more understanding of combo from the person across the table. Splinter twin is a nice simple combo that players can follow. TES is not. I think splinter twin is boring to play against (even if my deck is "favored" in the matchup), but I understand why it is more acceptable, and it only partly has to do with speed.
Of all the things that could come from looking at legacy, I think the abundance of control in legacy is striking. Many of the top tier decks (DnT, miracles, shardless BUG) are CONTROL decks, not combo. Exactly how dangerous would thopter-sword be in modern? Or counter-top? Jace? What would it take to make DnT viable in modern? There is an irony in this discussion that people think legacy is all about combo, but the legacy metagame has a strong listing for control, a category modern is decidedly lacking in.
We on the other hand have many different viable Aggro decks. Three of them are even Tier 1 currently. How many are Tier 1 in Legacy though? None?
Yeah, thought so.
We on the other hand have many different viable Aggro decks. Three of them are even Tier 1 currently. How many are Tier 1 in Legacy though? None?
Yeah, thought so.
RUG/BUG delver and deathblade are decks, not to mention burn. You can do a lot of work, or at least have a lot of fun, playing aggro in legacy. And aggro has had plenty of high moments in legacy. Of course it has been around longer, so that point is largely irrelevant.
EDIT: staying on the topic of modern, how good // bad is Sensei's Divining Top? Is it banned for reasons of time alone, or is it legitimately too powerful?
Which of these cards are you referring to? Bridge? Ichorid? Narcomoeba? The dredgers? You can do without some of them. I've had to do it many times.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Bridge, Narcomoeba, and Ichorid. How often can you win without any of those? Because the entire deck relying on a game-winning combos involving those 3 cards still counts as a combo deck/
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
To continue this logic: how often do you win in, say, a Delver deck without your creatures.
How often do you win without any of those?
Note that I'm aware of the absurdity of this comparison. I'm trying to point out that merely relying on some cards to hit the field and win the game for you does not a combo deck make.
Edit: I should clarify that I concede that Dredge is, in its heart, a mostly combo deck. However, I would say that it's a combo shell trying to execute an aggro game plan. It's different from Twin in that Twin just kills you in one go once it assembles its combo. Dredge, however, tends to build a number of pieces over time (over time being 1-3ish turns) and just hits their opponent with them until they die. It feels very much like an aggro deck that uses an alternate method (in this case, the Dredge and card draw synergy) to deploy its threats and gain card advantage, which is where the combo aspect comes in.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Ah look Valanarch gets it. As always he appears out of nowhere and states things how they are.
Also guys fully-powered Dredge isn't anything. It's not even a Magic deck playing Magic. It's something else entirely.
The reason why it's such an abomination and hated.
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Yea its basically like a deck from another game. I make fun of it and say its a ygo deck playing against decks with the restrictions in the magic world. I would not call it a combo deck but it certainly is an uninteractive deck.
ugh I hate uninteractive/little interaction decks they should just not exist. modern would be a much better place lol
decks playing:
none
You haven't played Dredge much have you?
It's always been an aggro/combo deck. The only reason that it is referred to more as a combo deck is because it's the more common way of winning. Take this from someone who's played Legacy Dredge in some form for well over 3 years.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
How long ago you put it together means jack ***** compared to how long someone has been playing it. You've both been playing it for three years, but he's been playing it far more recently than you have.
So is Delver of Secrets->Instant/Sorcery a combo then? Cool.
Another question for you: is Twin a combo deck? Obviously the answer should be yes. But would you call it a combo deck when it wins with Bolts and Snapcasters/Pestermites? No, that would be tempo. Thus Twin is Tempo-Combo. Dredge uses a combo shell (abusing mechanics to gain an advantage) to utilize an aggro game plan (play small dudes over a period of time and beat down). Thus Combo-Aggro.
Also damn son, you really need to tone down on the condescension. It's getting all over my sneakers.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
And it doesn't matter how a deck ultimately wins. What defines a deck is its strategy going into a match. A combo deck that has an alt win is what I would call a good combo deck.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I would say Dredge is combo in the same vein that Burn is combo. Where as, it's not necessarily just a couple cards, like say twin or amulet, but rather the entire deck is designed to be non interactive and as quickly as possible will reduce your opponent to zero. And I know the Combo vs Aggro Burn debate is about as contentious as it can get too. But aggro in its most simplistic form is combo. I think thats where a lot of ambiguity comes from. What brings aggro away from combo is its ability to interact. So now, instead of only worrying about reducing your opponent to zero, you also are concerned with your own permanents and your own life total.
As to your concerns regarding Collected Company. The only real concern is if decks start pushing the 15-20% meta mark with it. And there are some solid decks between them and 10% even. It'll likely be fine for the next year or two. Then, who knows, its another card that will only get more broken as more cards are printed.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
But seriously, let's stop trying to classify a Legacy deck and go back to whining about how the central card of the deck we just lost to should be banned.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Ok, when dredge starts running counterspells or some other card to protect its Zombie army, then I would consider it closer to an aggro strategy.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Agree. This conversation has gone on too long as is: I was hoping the Legacy stuff would die down and we could return to Modern bans, but now I see that's not happening without some intervention.
Keep it on Modern bans and Modern cards. It's fine to talk about deck classifications (so long as they directly pertain to Modern banlist issues), but keep it focused on the topic at hand. Also, keep it civil.
Carry on!
To be fair, dredge is a far more "redundant" combo deck than other combo decks; in many ways it's like affinity, winning by swarming the board with some degenerate mechanism that fair decks can't race, occasionally blowing the opponent to pieces with some combo, and dies abruptly in the face of hate.
Something that comes to mind regarding combo: competitive legacy combo decks aim for turn 3 kills, not bizarre spanish-inquisition style kills people seem to think are running rampant through legacy. Note: turn 3 is just one less than the turn 4 of modern. That being said, I wouldn't actually want things like ANT and TES in modern, not because they are non-interactive (modern can interact with them), but because it requires far more understanding of combo from the person across the table. Splinter twin is a nice simple combo that players can follow. TES is not. I think splinter twin is boring to play against (even if my deck is "favored" in the matchup), but I understand why it is more acceptable, and it only partly has to do with speed.
Of all the things that could come from looking at legacy, I think the abundance of control in legacy is striking. Many of the top tier decks (DnT, miracles, shardless BUG) are CONTROL decks, not combo. Exactly how dangerous would thopter-sword be in modern? Or counter-top? Jace? What would it take to make DnT viable in modern? There is an irony in this discussion that people think legacy is all about combo, but the legacy metagame has a strong listing for control, a category modern is decidedly lacking in.
We on the other hand have many different viable Aggro decks. Three of them are even Tier 1 currently. How many are Tier 1 in Legacy though? None?
Yeah, thought so.
RUG/BUG delver and deathblade are decks, not to mention burn. You can do a lot of work, or at least have a lot of fun, playing aggro in legacy. And aggro has had plenty of high moments in legacy. Of course it has been around longer, so that point is largely irrelevant.
EDIT: staying on the topic of modern, how good // bad is Sensei's Divining Top? Is it banned for reasons of time alone, or is it legitimately too powerful?