This quote from Bocephus is full of bull*****. There is no evidence to your claim whatsoever. Bloodbraid Elf was wrongfully banned along with Wild Nacatl, and if my links aren't evidence enough I don't know how else to express this.
It's beyond obvious to see, that Bloodbraid Elf was not banned based on power level, Wizards even said that themselves, Bloodbraid Elf was banned because they wanted to "nerf" a deck, and it's a ******* horrible philosophy because look at the *****-pile we are stuck in now. People want Bloodbraid Elf, Dig Through Time, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned. These cards do jack ***** compared to the list I just previously typed up.
BGx will not increase in meta percentages, the logic doesn't coincide with your opinion, and that doesn't make the logic incorrect, it makes your opinion incorrect.
I forgot how much people like you let the pro meta guide you and make decisions for you.
Keep gearing the game toward the pros and we have Extended all over again, a failed format. Dont understand why that is so hard to understand.
I also find it amusing you can only attack one statement and disregard the rest.
I find it amusing, you are mocking ACTUAL PRO TOUR AND PRO TOUR QUALIFIER RESULTS.
Are you saying you are BETTER than everyone else who competed in that Era?
Not saying that at all. I am saying there is more to the Modern format then pro results. It was the same for a bit with Extended. The format took a nose dive when Wotc started gearing the game toward the small player base at the top and the regular Joes playing at the LGS, local TO level, were pushed out of the format.
Gear Modern toward the pro game, and we have Extended all over. A failure of a format.
This quote from Bocephus is full of bull*****. There is no evidence to your claim whatsoever. Bloodbraid Elf was wrongfully banned along with Wild Nacatl, and if my links aren't evidence enough I don't know how else to express this.
It's beyond obvious to see, that Bloodbraid Elf was not banned based on power level, Wizards even said that themselves, Bloodbraid Elf was banned because they wanted to "nerf" a deck, and it's a ******* horrible philosophy because look at the *****-pile we are stuck in now. People want Bloodbraid Elf, Dig Through Time, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned. These cards do jack ***** compared to the list I just previously typed up.
BGx will not increase in meta percentages, the logic doesn't coincide with your opinion, and that doesn't make the logic incorrect, it makes your opinion incorrect.
I forgot how much people like you let the pro meta guide you and make decisions for you.
Keep gearing the game toward the pros and we have Extended all over again, a failed format. Dont understand why that is so hard to understand.
I also find it amusing you can only attack one statement and disregard the rest.
I find it amusing, you are mocking ACTUAL PRO TOUR AND PRO TOUR QUALIFIER RESULTS.
Are you saying you are BETTER than everyone else who competed in that Era?
Not saying that at all. I am saying there is more to the Modern format then pro results. It was the same for a bit with Extended. The format took a nose dive when Wotc started gearing the game toward the small player base at the top and the regular Joes playing at the LGS, local TO level, were pushed out of the format.
Gear Modern toward the pro game, and we have Extended all over. A failure of a format.
We most certainly don't want that. If WOTC starts listening to pros and banning things like fetchlands and manamorphose this format is toast.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
"The best answer is to print alternative strategies - Treasure Cruise and Pod showed that Modern potentially has the power to overcome Tarmogoyf and produce archetypes that keep it at a reasonable level of prevalence without making it worthless (6.3% of decks isn't negligible)." Won't let me quote this for some reason, but I want to address it.
FWIW we know from our data that the longer a format is left untouched, the more innovation we see. The more innovation we see, the more interaction we see, and the more interaction, the more Goyfs. I'd also like to remind you that UR Delver with Tarmogoyf was the onlyTreasure Cruise deck to win a GP. Tarmogoyf is the best Tempo creature ever printed and to say that Treasure Cruise was good enough to make people not run Tarmogoyf IMO is wrong. The numbers disagree with this analysis, and here's why: people definitely shifted away from Goyf, but a big reason for this I think is how cheap it was to build UR Delver coupled with the insane power of the deck. Many Goyfless people were excited to play a Tier 1 option and played Delver, increasing the meta share. Also, since it was the 'new hot deck,' less players wanted to innovate and more wanted to just pick it up and experience the power themselves. I maintain that RUG Delver was the best deck of the Treasure Cruise era and would have gone on to dominate over the UR versions had Treasure Cruise stayed in the format.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
This quote from Bocephus is full of bull*****. There is no evidence to your claim whatsoever. Bloodbraid Elf was wrongfully banned along with Wild Nacatl, and if my links aren't evidence enough I don't know how else to express this.
It's beyond obvious to see, that Bloodbraid Elf was not banned based on power level, Wizards even said that themselves, Bloodbraid Elf was banned because they wanted to "nerf" a deck, and it's a ******* horrible philosophy because look at the *****-pile we are stuck in now. People want Bloodbraid Elf, Dig Through Time, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned. These cards do jack ***** compared to the list I just previously typed up.
BGx will not increase in meta percentages, the logic doesn't coincide with your opinion, and that doesn't make the logic incorrect, it makes your opinion incorrect.
I forgot how much people like you let the pro meta guide you and make decisions for you.
Keep gearing the game toward the pros and we have Extended all over again, a failed format. Dont understand why that is so hard to understand.
I also find it amusing you can only attack one statement and disregard the rest.
I find it amusing, you are mocking ACTUAL PRO TOUR AND PRO TOUR QUALIFIER RESULTS.
Are you saying you are BETTER than everyone else who competed in that Era?
Not saying that at all. I am saying there is more to the Modern format then pro results. It was the same for a bit with Extended. The format took a nose dive when Wotc started gearing the game toward the small player base at the top and the regular Joes playing at the LGS, local TO level, were pushed out of the format.
Gear Modern toward the pro game, and we have Extended all over. A failure of a format.
We most certainly don't want that. If WOTC starts listening to pros and banning things like fetchlands and manamorphose this format is toast.
Don't they already sort of listen to pros thou, stating that they ban cards due to keeping the pro tour healthy and that was one of the reasons for the last bans?
That is true, but if they continue on that path modern will literally go down in flames.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
You can get on the road without an Audi though. Look at Jacob Wilson's Abzan deck, there are no goyf's and that deck is solid. You can take tuned lexus and beat an Audi if you put effort into it.
If you look at that link tarmogoyf is currently $60 online, but it was over $100 a few weeks ago.
Now if the mere mention of a reprint and the waning of modern season could cause this in paper goyf prices, I think a lot of people here would stop complaining.
Of course I know MTGO is a little (lot) different from paper, but the comparison in reprint impact is valid.
It has gone down by around $30 at this point in paper. But that may be a lull before the new set hits, because right now the only people in the market for Tarmogoyfs are existing players interested in Modern (or who already play it) or the few Legacy decks running it. The phenomemon that led to price rises last time was the introduction of many new players into the format, which pushed demand right up again. So once the new set arrives prices may climb again, and probably will after MM2 becomes hard to find or more expensive.
That is why it is imperative for players to buy them within a couple weeks of MM2015 launching. There is a modern GP in june, so I expect demand for modern cards to explode right after MM2015, but before the GP.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
So obviously scratch every th ing I said. Wizards went ahead and printed the answer Modern needed to Splinter Twin. Glad to see Wizards recognized it as a problem in the format.
I find it highly unlikely that Modern will see the same growth with MM2015 as it did with MMA. It should grow, but not as much.
MM2015 will be printed in higher quantities than MMA. It's still a restricted print run, but not as restricted.
Put those 2 things together and I feel MM2015's printing will start to really cut into Tarmogoyf's price.
According to the owner of the LGS I go to they believe from the information they have been given from Wotc, the print run for MM2015 will be about 50% more then MM1. Also, do you really think everyone who wants Goyfs have them? You dont think the speculators and stores are not going to be looking for more Goyfs?
Goyfs are going to drop from now till the GP then about a week or two after the GP the price will start to climb again as people realize there are not going to be as many Goyf as believed in the market.
I fully expect Goyfs to be $225-$250 this time next year.
I find it highly unlikely that Modern will see the same growth with MM2015 as it did with MMA. It should grow, but not as much.
MM2015 will be printed in higher quantities than MMA. It's still a restricted print run, but not as restricted.
Put those 2 things together and I feel MM2015's printing will start to really cut into Tarmogoyf's price.
According to the owner of the LGS I go to they believe from the information they have been given from Wotc, the print run for MM2015 will be about 50% more then MM1. Also, do you really think everyone who wants Goyfs have them? You dont think the speculators and stores are not going to be looking for more Goyfs?
Goyfs are going to drop from now till the GP then about a week or two after the GP the price will start to climb again as people realize there are not going to be as many Goyf as believed in the market.
I fully expect Goyfs to be $225-$250 this time next year.
That's a good point. I'm not factoring in current Modern players who don't own goyf but want to.
So is the thinking to buy Goyf pre-MM2015 or right at release? I'd love to have a playset, and Liliana of the veil but a playset of those is $1200 Canadian...
EDIT: Apologize, I thought I was in the Prices thread.
"The best answer is to print alternative strategies - Treasure Cruise and Pod showed that Modern potentially has the power to overcome Tarmogoyf and produce archetypes that keep it at a reasonable level of prevalence without making it worthless (6.3% of decks isn't negligible)." Won't let me quote this for some reason, but I want to address it.
FWIW we know from our data that the longer a format is left untouched, the more innovation we see. The more innovation we see, the more interaction we see, and the more interaction, the more Goyfs. I'd also like to remind you that UR Delver with Tarmogoyf was the onlyTreasure Cruise deck to win a GP. Tarmogoyf is the best Tempo creature ever printed and to say that Treasure Cruise was good enough to make people not run Tarmogoyf IMO is wrong. The numbers disagree with this analysis, and here's why: people definitely shifted away from Goyf, but a big reason for this I think is how cheap it was to build UR Delver coupled with the insane power of the deck. Many Goyfless people were excited to play a Tier 1 option and played Delver, increasing the meta share. Also, since it was the 'new hot deck,' less players wanted to innovate and more wanted to just pick it up and experience the power themselves. I maintain that RUG Delver was the best deck of the Treasure Cruise era and would have gone on to dominate over the UR versions had Treasure Cruise stayed in the format.
I dunno about this to be honest, there's often real risks in modern of it just getting solved. I think that's part of why stale periods are so frequent. I do agree with you on rug delver though, and feel that format had not quite reached its ultimate point.
So obviously scratch every th ing I said. Wizards went ahead and printed the answer Modern needed to Splinter Twin. Glad to see Wizards recognized it as a problem in the format.
Uh yeah, a card that is arguably worse than combust and is so dang narrow that its useless versus almost every deck
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Currently Playing:
Modern: RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy: UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander: UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
So obviously scratch every th ing I said. Wizards went ahead and printed the answer Modern needed to Splinter Twin. Glad to see Wizards recognized it as a problem in the format.
Uh yeah, a card that is arguably worse than combust and is so dang narrow that its useless versus almost every deck
Combust has seen major play as a counter to Splinter Twin, so much so that they started using Mizzium Skin for a good competitive period against red decks. This new card is a direct upgrade from Combust for those reasons.
wizards dont have ban anything, we need to UNBAN things or intrucde legacy cards on modern for get a better format
Counterspell and others good spells must be IN modern
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Modern: RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries Legacy:BRx Renimator Playing right now:Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
So obviously scratch every th ing I said. Wizards went ahead and printed the answer Modern needed to Splinter Twin. Glad to see Wizards recognized it as a problem in the format.
Uh yeah, a card that is arguably worse than combust and is so dang narrow that its useless versus almost every deck
huh? Have you seen how excited most people are over the card? Most can't wait to replace combust, since the only thing combust hits that rending volley doesn't is siege rhino, and most people don't being in combust to just hit a siege rhino. Volley still hits all of twins creatures, resto angel, etc. The one mana over two is huge. Volley is the real deal.
It needs a draw engine that doesn't benefit Combo (So no Accumulated Knowledge). Control has everything it needs in the format except a way to keep up Card Advantage.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
It needs a draw engine that doesn't benefit Combo (So no Accumulated Knowledge). Control has everything it needs in the format except a way to keep up Card Advantage.
I've been toying around with Kiora's Duel Deck (My playgroup occasionally has everyone grab a duel deck and just play it in a Pod like Commander), and a playset nets you 12 cards (provided you draw them all during the game). Storm would just get ridiculous if you could draw 24 cards during the course of a game.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
I've been toying around with Kiora's Duel Deck (My playgroup occasionally has everyone grab a duel deck and just play it in a Pod like Commander), and a playset nets you 12 cards (provided you draw them all during the game). Storm would just get ridiculous if you could draw 24 cards during the course of a game.
If we can't help Control because we are afraid of tier 3 combo decks, the format can never be fixed. Accumulated Knowledge would not break the turn 4 rule. Because of this it shouldn't break Storm.
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
How do you all feel about Seething Song these days? Storm has not been played much recently, probably due to all of the IoKs and Lillianas. Could it get this tool back?
I've been toying around with Kiora's Duel Deck (My playgroup occasionally has everyone grab a duel deck and just play it in a Pod like Commander), and a playset nets you 12 cards (provided you draw them all during the game). Storm would just get ridiculous if you could draw 24 cards during the course of a game.
Doesn't a playset of accumulated knowledge only allow you to draw 10 cards, thus netting you 6 cards?
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Free Counter Magic
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Not saying that at all. I am saying there is more to the Modern format then pro results. It was the same for a bit with Extended. The format took a nose dive when Wotc started gearing the game toward the small player base at the top and the regular Joes playing at the LGS, local TO level, were pushed out of the format.
Gear Modern toward the pro game, and we have Extended all over. A failure of a format.
We most certainly don't want that. If WOTC starts listening to pros and banning things like fetchlands and manamorphose this format is toast.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
FWIW we know from our data that the longer a format is left untouched, the more innovation we see. The more innovation we see, the more interaction we see, and the more interaction, the more Goyfs. I'd also like to remind you that UR Delver with Tarmogoyf was the only Treasure Cruise deck to win a GP. Tarmogoyf is the best Tempo creature ever printed and to say that Treasure Cruise was good enough to make people not run Tarmogoyf IMO is wrong. The numbers disagree with this analysis, and here's why: people definitely shifted away from Goyf, but a big reason for this I think is how cheap it was to build UR Delver coupled with the insane power of the deck. Many Goyfless people were excited to play a Tier 1 option and played Delver, increasing the meta share. Also, since it was the 'new hot deck,' less players wanted to innovate and more wanted to just pick it up and experience the power themselves. I maintain that RUG Delver was the best deck of the Treasure Cruise era and would have gone on to dominate over the UR versions had Treasure Cruise stayed in the format.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Don't they already sort of listen to pros thou, stating that they ban cards due to keeping the pro tour healthy and that was one of the reasons for the last bans?
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
It has gone down by around $30 at this point in paper. But that may be a lull before the new set hits, because right now the only people in the market for Tarmogoyfs are existing players interested in Modern (or who already play it) or the few Legacy decks running it. The phenomemon that led to price rises last time was the introduction of many new players into the format, which pushed demand right up again. So once the new set arrives prices may climb again, and probably will after MM2 becomes hard to find or more expensive.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
MM2015 will be printed in higher quantities than MMA. It's still a restricted print run, but not as restricted.
Put those 2 things together and I feel MM2015's printing will start to really cut into Tarmogoyf's price.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
According to the owner of the LGS I go to they believe from the information they have been given from Wotc, the print run for MM2015 will be about 50% more then MM1. Also, do you really think everyone who wants Goyfs have them? You dont think the speculators and stores are not going to be looking for more Goyfs?
Goyfs are going to drop from now till the GP then about a week or two after the GP the price will start to climb again as people realize there are not going to be as many Goyf as believed in the market.
I fully expect Goyfs to be $225-$250 this time next year.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
EDIT: Apologize, I thought I was in the Prices thread.
Spirits
I dunno about this to be honest, there's often real risks in modern of it just getting solved. I think that's part of why stale periods are so frequent. I do agree with you on rug delver though, and feel that format had not quite reached its ultimate point.
Uh yeah, a card that is arguably worse than combust and is so dang narrow that its useless versus almost every deck
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Combust has seen major play as a counter to Splinter Twin, so much so that they started using Mizzium Skin for a good competitive period against red decks. This new card is a direct upgrade from Combust for those reasons.
Counterspell and others good spells must be IN modern
RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron
R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries
Legacy:BRx Renimator
Playing right now: Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
huh? Have you seen how excited most people are over the card? Most can't wait to replace combust, since the only thing combust hits that rending volley doesn't is siege rhino, and most people don't being in combust to just hit a siege rhino. Volley still hits all of twins creatures, resto angel, etc. The one mana over two is huge. Volley is the real deal.
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles
Control doesn't need Counterspell, though.
It needs a draw engine that doesn't benefit Combo (So no Accumulated Knowledge). Control has everything it needs in the format except a way to keep up Card Advantage.
How would Accumulated Knowledge benefit combo?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'm unsure either, I would think card selection helps combo more than card quantity, but I am unsure about how that would affect Modern overall.
I've been toying around with Kiora's Duel Deck (My playgroup occasionally has everyone grab a duel deck and just play it in a Pod like Commander), and a playset nets you 12 cards (provided you draw them all during the game). Storm would just get ridiculous if you could draw 24 cards during the course of a game.
If we can't help Control because we are afraid of tier 3 combo decks, the format can never be fixed. Accumulated Knowledge would not break the turn 4 rule. Because of this it shouldn't break Storm.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Doesn't a playset of accumulated knowledge only allow you to draw 10 cards, thus netting you 6 cards?