Why must we be in a Standard where spells are so weak compared to creatures?
...and Standard is the healthiest its been in a few rotations.
Yes, it is. Standard is healthy. However, name me the most powerful spells in Standard. I see Dig Through Time (ignoring Cruise since it sees less play), Thoughtseize, and after that maybe Whip of Erebos (and that is if we are looking at all noncreature cards). Now look at the creatures. Siege Rhino. Monastery Mentor. Goblin Rabblemaster. Stormbreath Dragon. Ashcloud Phoenix. Hornet Queen. Courser of Kruphix. The list continues. What spells in Standard other than Dig Through Time, Treasure Cruise, and Thoughtseize are at the level of those creatures? There isn't a balance between spell and creature power-level.
How does DRS enable consistency anymore than Birds of Paradise
If someone has to explain the difference between Bop and DRS we have bigger issues.
Stop being an idiot. You are doing partial quotes specifically to make my argument look bad. Here is the actual quote.
How does DRS enable consistency anymore than Birds of Paradise does in regards to manabases? Sure, he caused problems in Modern, but he was banned for making a deck 15% of the meta.
DRS is certainly a much more powerful card than Birds of Paradise. However, it does not enable manabase consistency any more than Birds does. It was not banned because of consistency. This has gone too far. I am reporting you for trolling. Breaking up people's posts and taking them out of context just to criticize their intelligence is unacceptable. At least I respond to your whole posts.
Oh really? What is more likely? Wizards banning cards for the reasons that they state or Wizards banning cards for hidden reasons that they are unwilling to share with anyone else? The simplest explanation is the one most likely to be true.
Again, you want what you want and cant fathom any other direction.
No, I can read. Look at the reasoning for the banning of any card that you mentioned. Tell me where it says consistency beyond turn 4 without oppressive results is bad for Modern.
I am done here. I have explained multiple times, and you continue to ask the same questions. I am done with this topic with you.
Your explanation was literally "Consistency is bad because it tilts the format towards consistency." Well, duh. Lightning Bolt tilts the format towards Lightning Bolt, but it hasn't been banned yet. Also, name one time that Wizards has stated that consistency after turn 4 is bannable without being 15% of the meta or causing logistical issues. You still haven't provided a reason for why they would keep their reasoning secret. And the biggest problem of all is that you are selectively responding to parts of my post without actually responding to the whole thing. You even ignored the main point when I bolded it for you.
Oh really? What is more likely? Wizards banning cards for the reasons that they state or Wizards banning cards for hidden reasons that they are unwilling to share with anyone else? The simplest explanation is the one most likely to be true.
If you were actually saying this in response to me (I'm assuming so, since you quoted me), I was making a joke.
Anymore back and forth that isn't on cards and is instead the equivalent of people calling each other dumb gets infracted. Instead of handing out several warnings to multiple people, I will just state that out here in the open. Keep it Civil.
Oh really? What is more likely? Wizards banning cards for the reasons that they state or Wizards banning cards for hidden reasons that they are unwilling to share with anyone else? The simplest explanation is the one most likely to be true.
If you were actually saying this in response to me (I'm assuming so, since you quoted me), I was making a joke.
Sorry. It is hard to detect sarcasm on the Internet without emoticons.
Banning pod "solved" the lack of aggro problem. As much as I loved pod and would of prefered they banned a piece (say kitchen finks) over pod itself so they didn't just kill the deck. Although the pod just got better with every new set and so it was easier to ban the real problem card before a new card just made it even worse.
Junk/abzan is now the only colour of mid range although there were a few versions of it at the pro tour. BW tokens counts as mid range as well. So there is 3-4 decks inside the junk shell all taking different directions from the classic deck. I'd personally like more Jund, BUG or Mardu like the way mid range works nicely balancing against each other in standard. But the nature of mid range, play the best cards, makes diversity in the archetype difficult.
Aggro is very diverse in modern existing in a spectrum from Burn through fair beat down of the plethora of zoo decks to explosive combo-aggro of infect, so if they are looking for diversifying the format making aggro viable was certainly important.
Control is what is struggling, there exist controlling combo decks Scapeshift, Twin and Grixis twin (which is like a grixis control/mid range/combo thing) and a controlling ramp deck U tron. But they use up a lot of their deck on their combos/ramp. UWR just looked awful at the pro tour, straight UW did better though.
So the next question is how do improve Control?
Sword of the meek. Is the problem staying alive? because SotM would solve that, but I would be worried that it would remove the gains in aggro in the format. Junk has all the tools to break combo easily but its not so easy for the aggro decks.
or is the problem card draw? Ancestral vision. It is slow but powerful card draw. It is important that the card is played, so it having a power level worth considering adding to the format. It wont be wanted for pure combo as they want to go off before turn 4. I feel that twin is still a little too fast to want it but scapeshift may want it, faeries probably do want it. Some other controlling decks may choose the speed and flexibility of thirst for knowledge instead.
Dig through time. Is dangerously powerful, but I still like it, I might want BBE to come off with it to try to balance its power. very good in scapeshift and twin as well as full control though which is a potential problem. Unlike cruise it is possible to fight through its advantage if you are already far enough ahead. If this was always 4 mana it would be great card for control in modern and I kinda wish it was.
Treasure cruise sorry its definitely too strong it invalidated too many cards in modern.
Jace TMS. The problem is its repeatability if it is not immediately dealt with it just drowns the opponent in card advantage. Its mana cost is almost fair in modern as a combo deck can just ignore it. But unless we get more vicious walker hate printed, dreadbore is a start and we might see more, this will stay on the list.
TL;DR AV should be the next card off the list.
I don't care about this pointless Modern vs legacy argument. Legacy always looks like its turn 2 format because they only ever have 2 lands in play even on turn 10. I agree that without the ban list or with half the current list modern would just be nothing but combos because control straight up doesn't have enough tools to fight it in modern.
Yes, it is. Standard is healthy. However, name me the most powerful spells in Standard. I see Dig Through Time (ignoring Cruise since it sees less play), Thoughtseize, and after that maybe Whip of Erebos (and that is if we are looking at all noncreature cards). Now look at the creatures. Siege Rhino. Monastery Mentor. Goblin Rabblemaster. Stormbreath Dragon. Ashcloud Phoenix. Hornet Queen. Courser of Kruphix. The list continues. What spells in Standard other than Dig Through Time, Treasure Cruise, and Thoughtseize are at the level of those creatures? There isn't a balance between spell and creature power-level.
There is plenty of power left in non-creature spells. Otherwise a deck with only 9 creatures wouldn't be doing so well. Quite a few other decks run more spells than creatures too.
The same is true for Modern. BG/x decks also run almost twice as many spells as creatures. Twin, Scapeshift, Burn, Infect, UWR Control/midrange, all Tron decks, Amulet, Storm, Bogles, etc.
All of these decks play more spells than creatures and will continue to do so. Creatures aren't overpowered and taking over everything. They are just balanced now.
The days where you constantly see blue decks playing draw-go against everyone and having only lands in play are over though.
If white can destroy all creatures for 4 mana then it is only fair that green can get Thrun, the Last Troll for the same mana cost. Don't you think?
Or do you think Cryptic Command versus Archivist or Aurora Griffin is how the balance should be?
Yes, it is. Standard is healthy. However, name me the most powerful spells in Standard. I see Dig Through Time (ignoring Cruise since it sees less play), Thoughtseize, and after that maybe Whip of Erebos (and that is if we are looking at all noncreature cards). Now look at the creatures. Siege Rhino. Monastery Mentor. Goblin Rabblemaster. Stormbreath Dragon. Ashcloud Phoenix. Hornet Queen. Courser of Kruphix. The list continues. What spells in Standard other than Dig Through Time, Treasure Cruise, and Thoughtseize are at the level of those creatures? There isn't a balance between spell and creature power-level.
There is plenty of power left in non-creature spells. Otherwise a deck with only 9 creatures wouldn't be doing so well. Quite a few other decks run more spells than creatures too.
People play those cards because they have to, but the noncreature cards are still significantly less powerful than the creature cards.
The same is true for Modern. BG/x decks also run almost twice as many spells as creatures. Twin, Scapeshift, Burn, Infect, UWR Control/midrange, all Tron decks, Amulet, Storm, Bogles, etc.
All of these decks play more spells than creatures and will continue to do so. Creatures aren't overpowered and taking over everything. They are just balanced now.
The days where you constantly see blue decks playing draw-go against everyone and having only lands in play are over though.
Look at those decks then. The noncreature spells that those decks have gotten recently have in most cases been worse than the creatures (for example, Junk got Tasigur, Rhino, and Ooze while the only noncreature spell it got was Abrupt Decay).
If white can destroy all creatures for 4 mana then it is only fair that green can get Thrun, the Last Troll for the same mana cost. Don't you think?
Except white apparently can't get a destroy all creatures for 4 mana anymore. This is my problem. I am fine with cards like Thrun as long as the spells are similarly powerful. However, I am not ok with cards like Siege Rhino when the spells are things like End Hostilities.
No, I already said what I want it to be. Look at Alara and Zendikar Standard. Spells like Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Preordain, Terminate, and Ponder were printed at the same time as creatures like Knight of the Reliquary, Goblin Guide, Noble Hierarch, Bloodbraid Elf, and Primeval Titan. I want the power-level difference between the spells and the creatures to be like that, meaning very little difference at all. Currently, the power-level difference has swung towards creatures, as we can see in the current Standard of Siege Rhinos and Monastery Mentors against Hero's Downfalls and Wild Slashes.
5+ pages-long discussions about how to best make control better in Modern aside, I love Modern right now. The Pro Tour's metagame was a little Abzan-heavy, but the top 8 also had a lot of decks designed to prey on Abzan. I also think you can't make too much of the Pro Tour metagame, as it tends to be a little inbred. I personally hate Amulet Bloom, but I guess it's cool that weird, innovative decks that that can be played in the format right now (And seeing it crumple to Blood Moon in the finals was awesome, just proving that most things in Modern have pretty easy answers to them).
I'm a happy Modern player right now. I expect no bans/unbans in March.
while the only noncreature spell it got was Abrupt Decay
To be fair, I would say that Abrupt Decay is worth at least two of those creatures, if not all 3. It's such a strong removal spell and polices what can see play in the format.
while the only noncreature spell it got was Abrupt Decay
To be fair, I would say that Abrupt Decay is worth at least two of those creatures, if not all 3. It's such a strong removal spell and polices what can see play in the format.
You are probably right, but the sheer volume of strong creatures that they print matters too. The strong spells come much more rarely than the strong creatures.
5+ pages-long discussions about how to best make control better in Modern aside, I love Modern right now. The Pro Tour's metagame was a little Abzan-heavy, but the top 8 also had a lot of decks designed to prey on Abzan. I also think you can't make too much of the Pro Tour metagame, as it tends to be a little inbred. I personally hate Amulet Bloom, but I guess it's cool that weird, innovative decks that that can be played in the format right now (And seeing it crumple to Blood Moon in the finals was awesome, just proving that most things in Modern have pretty easy answers to them).
I'm a happy Modern player right now. I expect no bans/unbans in March.
}}
this this this.
a LOT of people in this forum dont understand how control works, the meta post ban only has 1 mayor tournament, control decks need a stable meta to work, new meta= less/no control by definition.
no ban/unban at least until..june?
blue is underperforming? lets unban something blue? blue=control? come on people this is all WRONG.
the only color i think is a little stronger than the rest is right now is green, all the other colors are equal in modern.
the only reasonable unban right now is Sword of the meek (i dont see BBE out of the list right now). I can bet my money that AV is NOT comming out in at least 1 year, we have recently had a U=draw 3 cards ban and you want another version out? Wotc disagrees.
5+ pages-long discussions about how to best make control better in Modern aside, I love Modern right now. The Pro Tour's metagame was a little Abzan-heavy, but the top 8 also had a lot of decks designed to prey on Abzan. I also think you can't make too much of the Pro Tour metagame, as it tends to be a little inbred. I personally hate Amulet Bloom, but I guess it's cool that weird, innovative decks that that can be played in the format right now (And seeing it crumple to Blood Moon in the finals was awesome, just proving that most things in Modern have pretty easy answers to them).
I'm a happy Modern player right now. I expect no bans/unbans in March.
}}
this this this.
a LOT of people in this forum dont understand how control works, the meta post ban only has 1 mayor tournament, control decks need a stable meta to work, new meta= less/no control by definition.
no ban/unban at least until..june?
blue is underperforming? lets unban something blue? blue=control? come on people this is all WRONG.
the only color i think is a little stronger than the rest is right now is green, all the other colors are equal in modern.
the only reasonable unban right now is Sword of the meek (i dont see BBE out of the list right now). I can bet my money that AV is NOT comming out in at least 1 year, we have recently had a U=draw 3 cards ban and you want another version out? Wotc disagrees.
Show me a way that Ancestral Vision will get Delver to 15% of the meta and I'll agree with you that Wizards won't unban it (though I will admit that you are probably right, but that is just because Wizards has never unbanned cards except for right before the Pro Tour).
5+ pages-long discussions about how to best make control better in Modern aside, I love Modern right now. The Pro Tour's metagame was a little Abzan-heavy, but the top 8 also had a lot of decks designed to prey on Abzan. I also think you can't make too much of the Pro Tour metagame, as it tends to be a little inbred. I personally hate Amulet Bloom, but I guess it's cool that weird, innovative decks that that can be played in the format right now (And seeing it crumple to Blood Moon in the finals was awesome, just proving that most things in Modern have pretty easy answers to them).
I'm a happy Modern player right now. I expect no bans/unbans in March.
I agree, Modern is really great right now IMO. I don't think anything needs banning/unbanning right now; let's see what they print in DoT to start with.
5+ pages-long discussions about how to best make control better in Modern aside, I love Modern right now. The Pro Tour's metagame was a little Abzan-heavy, but the top 8 also had a lot of decks designed to prey on Abzan. I also think you can't make too much of the Pro Tour metagame, as it tends to be a little inbred. I personally hate Amulet Bloom, but I guess it's cool that weird, innovative decks that that can be played in the format right now (And seeing it crumple to Blood Moon in the finals was awesome, just proving that most things in Modern have pretty easy answers to them).
I'm a happy Modern player right now. I expect no bans/unbans in March.
}}
this this this.
a LOT of people in this forum dont understand how control works, the meta post ban only has 1 mayor tournament, control decks need a stable meta to work, new meta= less/no control by definition.
no ban/unban at least until..june?
blue is underperforming? lets unban something blue? blue=control? come on people this is all WRONG.
the only color i think is a little stronger than the rest is right now is green, all the other colors are equal in modern.
the only reasonable unban right now is Sword of the meek (i dont see BBE out of the list right now). I can bet my money that AV is NOT comming out in at least 1 year, we have recently had a U=draw 3 cards ban and you want another version out? Wotc disagrees.
Show me a way that Ancestral Vision will get Delver to 15% of the meta and I'll agree with you that Wizards won't unban it (though I will admit that you are probably right, but that is just because Wizards has never unbanned cards except for right before the Pro Tour).
i cant show you something that :
A) i dont have a way to show
B) i dont agree
what i say is that wizards have terrible experience with U: draw 3 cards, and one of them is recently, so i doubt they want to give it another shot in another form.
you know way is more easy to unban GGT? because its more self regulatory, there are the weapons to neutralize a potential broken deck (graveyard hate).
lets say thats AV is somewhat broken, is there something that can hate cheap card draw easily? no, thats why the risk of unban AV is a lot greater than other card (GGT for example).
i´m not saying that AV is broken (i think is a little unhealthy IMHO), but IF it is...
Wotc dont hate delver, they fear cards with such power (U: draw 3 in this case), and thats why i really dont think that AV will come out in at least 1 year (maybe never).
Wotc has already sent us a BIG signal with the last ban, they dont want the power of the format go up!, so i really doubt that they unban a card in that direction (sorry BBE, you are on that train too, for the moment).
5+ pages-long discussions about how to best make control better in Modern aside, I love Modern right now. The Pro Tour's metagame was a little Abzan-heavy, but the top 8 also had a lot of decks designed to prey on Abzan. I also think you can't make too much of the Pro Tour metagame, as it tends to be a little inbred. I personally hate Amulet Bloom, but I guess it's cool that weird, innovative decks that that can be played in the format right now (And seeing it crumple to Blood Moon in the finals was awesome, just proving that most things in Modern have pretty easy answers to them).
I'm a happy Modern player right now. I expect no bans/unbans in March.
The phrase "The top 8 was heavy in one deck, but also featured decks designed to prey on that deck" shouldn't sound good to you. That's not a good thing.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
5+ pages-long discussions about how to best make control better in Modern aside, I love Modern right now. The Pro Tour's metagame was a little Abzan-heavy, but the top 8 also had a lot of decks designed to prey on Abzan. I also think you can't make too much of the Pro Tour metagame, as it tends to be a little inbred. I personally hate Amulet Bloom, but I guess it's cool that weird, innovative decks that that can be played in the format right now (And seeing it crumple to Blood Moon in the finals was awesome, just proving that most things in Modern have pretty easy answers to them).
I'm a happy Modern player right now. I expect no bans/unbans in March.
The phrase "The top 8 was heavy in one deck, but also featured decks designed to prey on that deck" shouldn't sound good to you. That's not a good thing.
I'm inclined to agree with this. People were using this exact phrase as a reason that the last metagame was awful (i.e. "GP Omaha was Pod and decks that beat Pod, which is bad"). Seeing it flip right around to being a good thing is kinda funny.
5+ pages-long discussions about how to best make control better in Modern aside, I love Modern right now. The Pro Tour's metagame was a little Abzan-heavy, but the top 8 also had a lot of decks designed to prey on Abzan. I also think you can't make too much of the Pro Tour metagame, as it tends to be a little inbred. I personally hate Amulet Bloom, but I guess it's cool that weird, innovative decks that that can be played in the format right now (And seeing it crumple to Blood Moon in the finals was awesome, just proving that most things in Modern have pretty easy answers to them).
I'm a happy Modern player right now. I expect no bans/unbans in March.
}}
this this this.
a LOT of people in this forum dont understand how control works, the meta post ban only has 1 mayor tournament, control decks need a stable meta to work, new meta= less/no control by definition.
no ban/unban at least until..june?
blue is underperforming? lets unban something blue? blue=control? come on people this is all WRONG.
the only color i think is a little stronger than the rest is right now is green, all the other colors are equal in modern.
the only reasonable unban right now is Sword of the meek (i dont see BBE out of the list right now). I can bet my money that AV is NOT comming out in at least 1 year, we have recently had a U=draw 3 cards ban and you want another version out? Wotc disagrees.
Show me a way that Ancestral Vision will get Delver to 15% of the meta and I'll agree with you that Wizards won't unban it (though I will admit that you are probably right, but that is just because Wizards has never unbanned cards except for right before the Pro Tour).
i cant show you something that :
A) i dont have a way to show
B) i dont agree
what i say is that wizards have terrible experience with U: draw 3 cards, and one of them is recently, so i doubt they want to give it another shot in another form.
you know way is more easy to unban GGT? because its more self regulatory, there are the weapons to neutralize a potential broken deck (graveyard hate).
lets say thats AV is somewhat broken, is there something that can hate cheap card draw easily? no, thats why the risk of unban AV is a lot greater than other card (GGT for example).
i´m not saying that AV is broken (i think is a little unhealthy IMHO), but IF it is...
Wotc dont hate delver, they fear cards with such power (U: draw 3 in this case), and thats why i really dont think that AV will come out in at least 1 year (maybe never).
Wotc has already sent us a BIG signal with the last ban, they dont want the power of the format go up!, so i really doubt that they unban a card in that direction (sorry BBE, you are on that train too, for the moment).
You are sadly probably right. I just don't see why Wizards hates rising power-level if it is fun and isn't breaking of their stated rules.
5+ pages-long discussions about how to best make control better in Modern aside, I love Modern right now. The Pro Tour's metagame was a little Abzan-heavy, but the top 8 also had a lot of decks designed to prey on Abzan. I also think you can't make too much of the Pro Tour metagame, as it tends to be a little inbred. I personally hate Amulet Bloom, but I guess it's cool that weird, innovative decks that that can be played in the format right now (And seeing it crumple to Blood Moon in the finals was awesome, just proving that most things in Modern have pretty easy answers to them).
I'm a happy Modern player right now. I expect no bans/unbans in March.
The phrase "The top 8 was heavy in one deck, but also featured decks designed to prey on that deck" shouldn't sound good to you. That's not a good thing.
I'm inclined to agree with this. People were using this exact phrase as a reason that the last metagame was awful (i.e. "GP Omaha was Pod and decks that beat Pod, which is bad"). Seeing it flip right around to being a good thing is kinda funny.
there is a lot of difference in a stable meta and a new meta, both escenarios are different because of that, its not the same "hey, this proven deck won again ...for the X times and around meta and hate" and a "hey this deck is over the meta, but its the first big tournament with the new bans"
more simple: IF abzan junk (abzan is a color combination and junk and strategy) is still on the top tables and with +25% of the meta in 2 more years..yeah expect a ban on something.
for example, i really doubt that burn do a top8 in the next modern GP, everyone is expecting burn (like everyone was expecting affinity in the pro tour).
so, one thing is puntual thing (a tournament) and other a trend (a meta for 2+ years).
Abzan is not the new Pod (it could be, yeah, but not right now)
I fail to see how any of that relates to what I said. Saying that Pod and decks tuned to beat Pod in a top 8 is bad but Abzan and decks tuned to beat Abzan in a top 8 is good is hypocritical at best. If a deck is warping the metagame around it, that's bad, no matter whether it's a new meta or not. Claiming that it's good is just silly.
Edit: to make my point clear, saying that a meta is healthy because a top 8 is a deck and decks designed to beat it is wrong. If a deck can go into a hostile field and still put up stellar numbers, that's not a good sign.
Killing them turn 4 seems good.
It is just Abzan midrange that it totally hoses... If it were a choice between banning something from Abzan and unbanning AV i'd choose AV.
also I said the next off the list I have no idea when but probably not for a year WotC likes making changes just before the pro tour to shake things up.
I think the key difference between Pod vs Anti-Pod and Abzan vs Not-Abzan is that the diversity in viable strategies on a competitive level broadens with the latter conditions than the former. There's only a handful of ways to play Pod (Kiki,Melira,Goodstuff,Bant), but the Pod engine still by and large dictated the playstyle of the archetype. Now there are plenty more ways to play a GBx or GWx midrange-y value-town deck with Pod out of the picture. We have the Podless Pod/Chord deck, the discard-hate Smiter/Liege deck, Generic Abzan, Discard heavy Abzan and Rock. All of which operate on similar, but distinct axes of play that interact with the comeback of decks that were less than favourable against the former Pod strategy. Even if we presume for the sake of argument that the four Pod flavours that are now lost to the format are balanced out by its four successor decks that are constructed from the leftover cards above, then any net number of decks that are now more viable with Pod out of the picture is net diversity. Isn't diversity what we want in function if we don't get it via appearance? Yes, 28% of the meta was Abzan, but I would think it's dishonest to the sake of the discussion that we blithely lump all decks that feature those three colours as one strategy and call it less diverse. Would we lump Twin, Scapeshift, Delver together as the same deck? Also, while we're all here trying to predict what's next, we have to remember that, barring some genius breakout deck finally proving itself that completely tilts the meta without warping it negatively (ie more impactful than Bloom Titan, but not too much impact) that players and brewers presumably as good as us have all collectively missed up until now, Modern is a mostly solved format. Meta changes happen by and large due to changes in the card pool and the repercussions thereof, not new synergy being arbitrarily discovered. Unfortunately, while a new set comes every 3-4 months, an update to the banlist does not. The format will be Abzan for a bit as Pod players adapt, then the sideboards will come and decks that prey on it will rise and so on and so forth as players regulate. We can make all the predictions we like but as far as I can tell we can't make the future come any faster. I didn't think Pod going at first was a good thing either; a benevolent dictator with a cult of personality is still loved by their subjects, but now that I see that it was a bottleneck on creature based decks we are kind of better off without it. We just have to wait and see for spoilers for the next set and go from there.
As far as things stand, we could still relatively safely predict that we will eventually see more stuff come off. Sword, AV/ Dig and BBE come to mind, in my particular order that I think we may see them released. I still contend that ThopterSword is no more powerful than Twin or Scapeshift given that it's colour AND mana heavy, that Ancestral Vision is a powerful card that merits testing, DTT was a heavy-handed casualty by Wizards, and that though I may really dislike BBE it could come off in the future if the stars are right. What we need to do is TEST our hypotheses. I'm really glad that KTKenshinx threw up that Twin list a few pages ago because it illustrates the sort of debating we need to do. There's enough bright minds in here that we can probably theorycraft what the approximate best builds for these banned cards is and see if its broken or not. Talk is cheap, and raw numbers hardly lie.
Additionally, I do think there is validity in the concerns for Creature Power Level vs Noncreature Power Level right now that is worth discussing. A creature like Siege Rhino being permissible, but Day of Judgement (not even Verdict or classic Wrath) not seems nonsensical. Spells should be more powerful than creatures because they are single use, but to what proportion or ratio of permanence to transience is necessary for Modern? What external factors mitigate this? Snapcaster? Eternal Witness? Interactivity? Cloudshift effects? Reanimation? Vial? How efficient should a spell be versus a body? Maybe this isn't the right place to discuss these sorts of factors because they border on custom card creation and NWO philosophy, but they do impact Modern as a format because cards that do fall outside of those parameters in Wizards eyes aren't going to be permissible in our format. Surely we can start constructing that framework and use it for discussion to at least some merit.
EDIT: Fixed some minor grammar and type errors. It's 3 and I'm tired.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
How can be a meta healthy without pure control decks? Modern is going to die.
Magic origins: a magic reboot, a new format will arise soon.
I hope they focus on the "new format" m15 and beyond for pro-tours and unban a lot from modern ban list, this is my desire.
Why does a control deck have to be pure? Why can't it be Control-Combo or Control-Aggro or Control-Midrange? We all seem to think that control is lacking in power, but the question is what do we do to make it viable? Can it be possible that just like pure aggro (Goblins, small Zoo) or pure combo (Eggs) isn't favourable in the format, that simply going "Draw, Island, go." and missing out on early tempo isn't good enough in Modern given the quality of cards we have to work with?
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"I dare do all that may become a man / who dares do more is none"
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Yes, it is. Standard is healthy. However, name me the most powerful spells in Standard. I see Dig Through Time (ignoring Cruise since it sees less play), Thoughtseize, and after that maybe Whip of Erebos (and that is if we are looking at all noncreature cards). Now look at the creatures. Siege Rhino. Monastery Mentor. Goblin Rabblemaster. Stormbreath Dragon. Ashcloud Phoenix. Hornet Queen. Courser of Kruphix. The list continues. What spells in Standard other than Dig Through Time, Treasure Cruise, and Thoughtseize are at the level of those creatures? There isn't a balance between spell and creature power-level.
There is plenty of power left in non-creature spells. Otherwise a deck with only 9 creatures wouldn't be doing so well. Quite a few other decks run more spells than creatures too.
People play those cards because they have to, but the noncreature cards are still significantly less powerful than the creature cards.
The same is true for Modern. BG/x decks also run almost twice as many spells as creatures. Twin, Scapeshift, Burn, Infect, UWR Control/midrange, all Tron decks, Amulet, Storm, Bogles, etc.
All of these decks play more spells than creatures and will continue to do so. Creatures aren't overpowered and taking over everything. They are just balanced now.
The days where you constantly see blue decks playing draw-go against everyone and having only lands in play are over though.
Look at those decks then. The noncreature spells that those decks have gotten recently have in most cases been worse than the creatures (for example, Junk got Tasigur, Rhino, and Ooze while the only noncreature spell it got was Abrupt Decay).
If white can destroy all creatures for 4 mana then it is only fair that green can get Thrun, the Last Troll for the same mana cost. Don't you think?
Except white apparently can't get a destroy all creatures for 4 mana anymore. This is my problem. I am fine with cards like Thrun as long as the spells are similarly powerful. However, I am not ok with cards like Siege Rhino when the spells are things like End Hostilities.
No, I already said what I want it to be. Look at Alara and Zendikar Standard. Spells like Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Preordain, Terminate, and Ponder were printed at the same time as creatures like Knight of the Reliquary, Goblin Guide, Noble Hierarch, Bloodbraid Elf, and Primeval Titan. I want the power-level difference between the spells and the creatures to be like that, meaning very little difference at all. Currently, the power-level difference has swung towards creatures, as we can see in the current Standard of Siege Rhinos and Monastery Mentors against Hero's Downfalls and Wild Slashes.
And that is where we disagree. Hero's Downfall is very powerful spell. Taking out any creature and planeswalker at instant-speed is unprecedented. The same with Dreadbore. Abzan Charm is instant-speed removal, permanent pump and Sign in Blood rolled into one card. That's great.
You judge cards based on the skewed Modern environment.
I mean per your definition Sphinx's Revelation and Supreme Verdict are not powerful cards because they don't exactly tear up Modern right now.
Spells are still great. You just fail to see it.
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Modern: UW Control
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Yes, it is. Standard is healthy. However, name me the most powerful spells in Standard. I see Dig Through Time (ignoring Cruise since it sees less play), Thoughtseize, and after that maybe Whip of Erebos (and that is if we are looking at all noncreature cards). Now look at the creatures. Siege Rhino. Monastery Mentor. Goblin Rabblemaster. Stormbreath Dragon. Ashcloud Phoenix. Hornet Queen. Courser of Kruphix. The list continues. What spells in Standard other than Dig Through Time, Treasure Cruise, and Thoughtseize are at the level of those creatures? There isn't a balance between spell and creature power-level.
Stop being an idiot. You are doing partial quotes specifically to make my argument look bad. Here is the actual quote.
DRS is certainly a much more powerful card than Birds of Paradise. However, it does not enable manabase consistency any more than Birds does. It was not banned because of consistency. This has gone too far. I am reporting you for trolling. Breaking up people's posts and taking them out of context just to criticize their intelligence is unacceptable. At least I respond to your whole posts.
No, I can read. Look at the reasoning for the banning of any card that you mentioned. Tell me where it says consistency beyond turn 4 without oppressive results is bad for Modern.
Your explanation was literally "Consistency is bad because it tilts the format towards consistency." Well, duh. Lightning Bolt tilts the format towards Lightning Bolt, but it hasn't been banned yet. Also, name one time that Wizards has stated that consistency after turn 4 is bannable without being 15% of the meta or causing logistical issues. You still haven't provided a reason for why they would keep their reasoning secret. And the biggest problem of all is that you are selectively responding to parts of my post without actually responding to the whole thing. You even ignored the main point when I bolded it for you.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
If you were actually saying this in response to me (I'm assuming so, since you quoted me), I was making a joke.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Sorry. It is hard to detect sarcasm on the Internet without emoticons.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Banning pod "solved" the lack of aggro problem. As much as I loved pod and would of prefered they banned a piece (say kitchen finks) over pod itself so they didn't just kill the deck. Although the pod just got better with every new set and so it was easier to ban the real problem card before a new card just made it even worse.
Junk/abzan is now the only colour of mid range although there were a few versions of it at the pro tour. BW tokens counts as mid range as well. So there is 3-4 decks inside the junk shell all taking different directions from the classic deck. I'd personally like more Jund, BUG or Mardu like the way mid range works nicely balancing against each other in standard. But the nature of mid range, play the best cards, makes diversity in the archetype difficult.
Aggro is very diverse in modern existing in a spectrum from Burn through fair beat down of the plethora of zoo decks to explosive combo-aggro of infect, so if they are looking for diversifying the format making aggro viable was certainly important.
Control is what is struggling, there exist controlling combo decks Scapeshift, Twin and Grixis twin (which is like a grixis control/mid range/combo thing) and a controlling ramp deck U tron. But they use up a lot of their deck on their combos/ramp. UWR just looked awful at the pro tour, straight UW did better though.
So the next question is how do improve Control?
Sword of the meek. Is the problem staying alive? because SotM would solve that, but I would be worried that it would remove the gains in aggro in the format. Junk has all the tools to break combo easily but its not so easy for the aggro decks.
or is the problem card draw?
Ancestral vision. It is slow but powerful card draw. It is important that the card is played, so it having a power level worth considering adding to the format. It wont be wanted for pure combo as they want to go off before turn 4. I feel that twin is still a little too fast to want it but scapeshift may want it, faeries probably do want it. Some other controlling decks may choose the speed and flexibility of thirst for knowledge instead.
Dig through time. Is dangerously powerful, but I still like it, I might want BBE to come off with it to try to balance its power. very good in scapeshift and twin as well as full control though which is a potential problem. Unlike cruise it is possible to fight through its advantage if you are already far enough ahead. If this was always 4 mana it would be great card for control in modern and I kinda wish it was.
Treasure cruise sorry its definitely too strong it invalidated too many cards in modern.
Jace TMS. The problem is its repeatability if it is not immediately dealt with it just drowns the opponent in card advantage. Its mana cost is almost fair in modern as a combo deck can just ignore it. But unless we get more vicious walker hate printed, dreadbore is a start and we might see more, this will stay on the list.
TL;DR AV should be the next card off the list.
I don't care about this pointless Modern vs legacy argument. Legacy always looks like its turn 2 format because they only ever have 2 lands in play even on turn 10. I agree that without the ban list or with half the current list modern would just be nothing but combos because control straight up doesn't have enough tools to fight it in modern.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Well let's take a look at one of the premier decks in Standard, Abzan Midrange.
The first thing that we notice here is that a recent list that made 7th place in a Premier IQ only runs 9 creatures but 25 spells. How was that again with creatures being overpowered? Shouldn't the deck run 20-30 creatures then?
Spells that see play in that list are Abzan Charm, Thoughtseize, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Hero's Downfall, Sorin, Solemn Visitor, Bile Blight, End Hostilities, Read the Bones, Liliana Vess, Murderous Cut, Utter End, Drown in Sorrow, Glare of Heresy, Erase, Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon.
There is plenty of power left in non-creature spells. Otherwise a deck with only 9 creatures wouldn't be doing so well. Quite a few other decks run more spells than creatures too.
The same is true for Modern. BG/x decks also run almost twice as many spells as creatures. Twin, Scapeshift, Burn, Infect, UWR Control/midrange, all Tron decks, Amulet, Storm, Bogles, etc.
All of these decks play more spells than creatures and will continue to do so. Creatures aren't overpowered and taking over everything. They are just balanced now.
The days where you constantly see blue decks playing draw-go against everyone and having only lands in play are over though.
If white can destroy all creatures for 4 mana then it is only fair that green can get Thrun, the Last Troll for the same mana cost. Don't you think?
Or do you think Cryptic Command versus Archivist or Aurora Griffin is how the balance should be?
People play those cards because they have to, but the noncreature cards are still significantly less powerful than the creature cards.
Look at those decks then. The noncreature spells that those decks have gotten recently have in most cases been worse than the creatures (for example, Junk got Tasigur, Rhino, and Ooze while the only noncreature spell it got was Abrupt Decay).
Except white apparently can't get a destroy all creatures for 4 mana anymore. This is my problem. I am fine with cards like Thrun as long as the spells are similarly powerful. However, I am not ok with cards like Siege Rhino when the spells are things like End Hostilities.
No, I already said what I want it to be. Look at Alara and Zendikar Standard. Spells like Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Preordain, Terminate, and Ponder were printed at the same time as creatures like Knight of the Reliquary, Goblin Guide, Noble Hierarch, Bloodbraid Elf, and Primeval Titan. I want the power-level difference between the spells and the creatures to be like that, meaning very little difference at all. Currently, the power-level difference has swung towards creatures, as we can see in the current Standard of Siege Rhinos and Monastery Mentors against Hero's Downfalls and Wild Slashes.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'm a happy Modern player right now. I expect no bans/unbans in March.
Modern: GW Hatebears/midrange, WGU Knightfall/evolution midrange stuff
Standard: nope
Legacy: W Death & Taxes
EDH (not Commander!): W Avacyn, Angel of Hope, GR Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, WGB Anafenza, the Foremost, WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator
To be fair, I would say that Abrupt Decay is worth at least two of those creatures, if not all 3. It's such a strong removal spell and polices what can see play in the format.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
You are probably right, but the sheer volume of strong creatures that they print matters too. The strong spells come much more rarely than the strong creatures.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
this this this.
a LOT of people in this forum dont understand how control works, the meta post ban only has 1 mayor tournament, control decks need a stable meta to work, new meta= less/no control by definition.
no ban/unban at least until..june?
blue is underperforming? lets unban something blue? blue=control? come on people this is all WRONG.
the only color i think is a little stronger than the rest is right now is green, all the other colors are equal in modern.
the only reasonable unban right now is Sword of the meek (i dont see BBE out of the list right now). I can bet my money that AV is NOT comming out in at least 1 year, we have recently had a U=draw 3 cards ban and you want another version out? Wotc disagrees.
Show me a way that Ancestral Vision will get Delver to 15% of the meta and I'll agree with you that Wizards won't unban it (though I will admit that you are probably right, but that is just because Wizards has never unbanned cards except for right before the Pro Tour).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I agree, Modern is really great right now IMO. I don't think anything needs banning/unbanning right now; let's see what they print in DoT to start with.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
i cant show you something that :
A) i dont have a way to show
B) i dont agree
what i say is that wizards have terrible experience with U: draw 3 cards, and one of them is recently, so i doubt they want to give it another shot in another form.
you know way is more easy to unban GGT? because its more self regulatory, there are the weapons to neutralize a potential broken deck (graveyard hate).
lets say thats AV is somewhat broken, is there something that can hate cheap card draw easily? no, thats why the risk of unban AV is a lot greater than other card (GGT for example).
i´m not saying that AV is broken (i think is a little unhealthy IMHO), but IF it is...
Wotc dont hate delver, they fear cards with such power (U: draw 3 in this case), and thats why i really dont think that AV will come out in at least 1 year (maybe never).
Wotc has already sent us a BIG signal with the last ban, they dont want the power of the format go up!, so i really doubt that they unban a card in that direction (sorry BBE, you are on that train too, for the moment).
The phrase "The top 8 was heavy in one deck, but also featured decks designed to prey on that deck" shouldn't sound good to you. That's not a good thing.
I'm inclined to agree with this. People were using this exact phrase as a reason that the last metagame was awful (i.e. "GP Omaha was Pod and decks that beat Pod, which is bad"). Seeing it flip right around to being a good thing is kinda funny.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
You are sadly probably right. I just don't see why Wizards hates rising power-level if it is fun and isn't breaking of their stated rules.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
there is a lot of difference in a stable meta and a new meta, both escenarios are different because of that, its not the same "hey, this proven deck won again ...for the X times and around meta and hate" and a "hey this deck is over the meta, but its the first big tournament with the new bans"
more simple: IF abzan junk (abzan is a color combination and junk and strategy) is still on the top tables and with +25% of the meta in 2 more years..yeah expect a ban on something.
for example, i really doubt that burn do a top8 in the next modern GP, everyone is expecting burn (like everyone was expecting affinity in the pro tour).
so, one thing is puntual thing (a tournament) and other a trend (a meta for 2+ years).
Abzan is not the new Pod (it could be, yeah, but not right now)
Edit: to make my point clear, saying that a meta is healthy because a top 8 is a deck and decks designed to beat it is wrong. If a deck can go into a hostile field and still put up stellar numbers, that's not a good sign.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Killing them turn 4 seems good.
It is just Abzan midrange that it totally hoses... If it were a choice between banning something from Abzan and unbanning AV i'd choose AV.
also I said the next off the list I have no idea when but probably not for a year WotC likes making changes just before the pro tour to shake things up.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
As far as things stand, we could still relatively safely predict that we will eventually see more stuff come off. Sword, AV/ Dig and BBE come to mind, in my particular order that I think we may see them released. I still contend that ThopterSword is no more powerful than Twin or Scapeshift given that it's colour AND mana heavy, that Ancestral Vision is a powerful card that merits testing, DTT was a heavy-handed casualty by Wizards, and that though I may really dislike BBE it could come off in the future if the stars are right. What we need to do is TEST our hypotheses. I'm really glad that KTKenshinx threw up that Twin list a few pages ago because it illustrates the sort of debating we need to do. There's enough bright minds in here that we can probably theorycraft what the approximate best builds for these banned cards is and see if its broken or not. Talk is cheap, and raw numbers hardly lie.
Additionally, I do think there is validity in the concerns for Creature Power Level vs Noncreature Power Level right now that is worth discussing. A creature like Siege Rhino being permissible, but Day of Judgement (not even Verdict or classic Wrath) not seems nonsensical. Spells should be more powerful than creatures because they are single use, but to what proportion or ratio of permanence to transience is necessary for Modern? What external factors mitigate this? Snapcaster? Eternal Witness? Interactivity? Cloudshift effects? Reanimation? Vial? How efficient should a spell be versus a body? Maybe this isn't the right place to discuss these sorts of factors because they border on custom card creation and NWO philosophy, but they do impact Modern as a format because cards that do fall outside of those parameters in Wizards eyes aren't going to be permissible in our format. Surely we can start constructing that framework and use it for discussion to at least some merit.
EDIT: Fixed some minor grammar and type errors. It's 3 and I'm tired.
#FreeSword
URWSkred, White and Blue
UBRGrixis Control
GWU2CMC CoCo Value Critters
MODERN - BANLIST TESTING:
UW - ThopterSword Tron
EDH - COMMANDER:
GU - Prime Speaker Zegana
WU - Bruna, Light of Alabaster (building)
TINY LEADERS:
UWR - Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest (building)
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Why does a control deck have to be pure? Why can't it be Control-Combo or Control-Aggro or Control-Midrange? We all seem to think that control is lacking in power, but the question is what do we do to make it viable? Can it be possible that just like pure aggro (Goblins, small Zoo) or pure combo (Eggs) isn't favourable in the format, that simply going "Draw, Island, go." and missing out on early tempo isn't good enough in Modern given the quality of cards we have to work with?
#FreeSword
URWSkred, White and Blue
UBRGrixis Control
GWU2CMC CoCo Value Critters
MODERN - BANLIST TESTING:
UW - ThopterSword Tron
EDH - COMMANDER:
GU - Prime Speaker Zegana
WU - Bruna, Light of Alabaster (building)
TINY LEADERS:
UWR - Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest (building)
And that is where we disagree.
Hero's Downfall is very powerful spell. Taking out any creature and planeswalker at instant-speed is unprecedented. The same with Dreadbore.
Abzan Charm is instant-speed removal, permanent pump and Sign in Blood rolled into one card. That's great.
You judge cards based on the skewed Modern environment.
I mean per your definition Sphinx's Revelation and Supreme Verdict are not powerful cards because they don't exactly tear up Modern right now.
Spells are still great. You just fail to see it.