To get the turn 2 prime time, I need amulet of vigor, summer bloom, bounce land with green, prime time/summoners pact. Its a 4 card combo that dies to disruption, is incredibly all in, and folds to removal, as you cant pay for a pact of negation the turn you summoners pact. The deck also folds to blood moon, HARD. Pod didn't 100% fold to anything really, that's what made it so good.
Do you also have a problem with Emrakul reanimator, or Infect, other fast combo decks?
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Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
I'm not sure this belongs in the banned thread or the metagame thread, but it touches on both and I keep up with this thread more than the other (though I can't fathom why).
Bocephus replied to me in the PT FTR thread but it was locked before I saw it. It was Bocephus quoting me quoting someone else. Here's my response:
I'm kind of sad that zero delver decks did anything as I enjoyed watching the deck. Bans must really have affected it more than the pod ban I guess.
Banning Treasure Cruise killed Delver. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. It was tier 2.5/3 before KTK and now it's back there.
TC was 4 cards tops, in the deck. Delver is still playable, people just are mad at the moment.
Yes it was 4 cards tops, but Delver simply was not competitively viable before the introduction of those 4 cards. Before TC Delver was a slow aggro deck that couldn't match something like Affinity without the right hands or a white splash and it couldn't finish off a deck like UWR Mid/Control or Jund/Junk before they turned the corner. TC did not speed it up but it gave Delver the ability to maintain its pressure when it simply couldn't do that before. Now it simply can't do that once again and it will be returned to the depths of barely being mediocre.
I disagree, I only ran 3 TCs in my build and switched them out with telling times and I am beating Junk, Infect, Burn, Affinity, Amulet all day long. The deck has not lost that much power, people are just not trying hard enough.
But I am not here to change your mind. You continue doing what you do, and I will do the same. As I have been told, local metas dont matter in this game.
I'm not sure this belongs in the banned thread or the metagame thread, but it touches on both and I keep up with this thread more than the other (though I can't fathom why).
Bocephus replied to me in the PT FTR thread but it was locked before I saw it. It was Bocephus quoting me quoting someone else. Here's my response:
I'm kind of sad that zero delver decks did anything as I enjoyed watching the deck. Bans must really have affected it more than the pod ban I guess.
Banning Treasure Cruise killed Delver. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. It was tier 2.5/3 before KTK and now it's back there.
TC was 4 cards tops, in the deck. Delver is still playable, people just are mad at the moment.
Yes it was 4 cards tops, but Delver simply was not competitively viable before the introduction of those 4 cards. Before TC Delver was a slow aggro deck that couldn't match something like Affinity without the right hands or a white splash and it couldn't finish off a deck like UWR Mid/Control or Jund/Junk before they turned the corner. TC did not speed it up but it gave Delver the ability to maintain its pressure when it simply couldn't do that before. Now it simply can't do that once again and it will be returned to the depths of barely being mediocre.
I disagree, I only ran 3 TCs in my build and switched them out with telling times and I am beating Junk, Infect, Burn, Affinity, Amulet all day long. The deck has not lost that much power, people are just not trying hard enough.
But I am not here to change your mind. You continue doing what you do, and I will do the same. As I have been told, local metas dont matter in this game.
You have to be joking. I've seen a ton of people say that UR Delver needed to be hit, but someone pretending that it isn't a big deal that the deck lost (for the way the deck played out) a 1 mana +2 card advantage spell is a new one. Comparing it to a one mana LOOK at three cards? Really? Cheap, raw advantage spells are unprecedented for tempo decks. The "4 cards tops" is particularly hilarious, as any individual ban (excluding a hypothetical Relentless Rats variety) is "4 cards tops." Tons of decks would fall apart with the loss of "just" 4 cards.
I'm not sure this belongs in the banned thread or the metagame thread, but it touches on both and I keep up with this thread more than the other (though I can't fathom why).
Bocephus replied to me in the PT FTR thread but it was locked before I saw it. It was Bocephus quoting me quoting someone else. Here's my response:
Banning Treasure Cruise killed Delver. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. It was tier 2.5/3 before KTK and now it's back there.
TC was 4 cards tops, in the deck. Delver is still playable, people just are mad at the moment.
Yes it was 4 cards tops, but Delver simply was not competitively viable before the introduction of those 4 cards. Before TC Delver was a slow aggro deck that couldn't match something like Affinity without the right hands or a white splash and it couldn't finish off a deck like UWR Mid/Control or Jund/Junk before they turned the corner. TC did not speed it up but it gave Delver the ability to maintain its pressure when it simply couldn't do that before. Now it simply can't do that once again and it will be returned to the depths of barely being mediocre.
I disagree, I only ran 3 TCs in my build and switched them out with telling times and I am beating Junk, Infect, Burn, Affinity, Amulet all day long. The deck has not lost that much power, people are just not trying hard enough.
But I am not here to change your mind. You continue doing what you do, and I will do the same. As I have been told, local metas dont matter in this game.
You have to be joking. I've seen a ton of people say that UR Delver needed to be hit, but someone pretending that it isn't a big deal that the deck lost (for the way the deck played out) a 1 mana +2 card advantage spell is a new one. Comparing it to a one mana LOOK at three cards? Really? Cheap, raw advantage spells are unprecedented for tempo decks. The "4 cards tops" is particularly hilarious, as any individual ban (excluding a hypothetical Relentless Rats variety) is "4 cards tops."
Tons of decks would fall apart with the loss of "just" 4 cards.
I disagree, I only ran 3 TCs in my build and switched them out with telling times and I am beating Junk, Infect, Burn, Affinity, Amulet all day long. The deck has not lost that much power, people are just not trying hard enough.
But I am not here to change your mind. You continue doing what you do, and I will do the same. As I have been told, local metas dont matter in this game.
You have to be joking. I've seen a ton of people say that UR Delver needed to be hit, but someone pretending that it isn't a big deal that the deck lost (for the way the deck played out) a 1 mana +2 card advantage spell is a new one. Comparing it to a one mana LOOK at three cards? Really? Cheap, raw advantage spells are unprecedented for tempo decks. The "4 cards tops" is particularly hilarious, as any individual ban (excluding a hypothetical Relentless Rats variety) is "4 cards tops." Tons of decks would fall apart with the loss of "just" 4 cards.
I would love to know what decks fall apart if they just lose 4 cards.. This isn't sarcasm by the way.
I know some decks will fall apart if they lose their key cards like twin losing twin, scapeshift losing scapeshift, bloom titan losing amulet.. Mostly are combo decks who will fall apart if 4 of their key cards are taken away. But most decks doesn't I believe. Of course it make them alot weaker like taking away eidolon from burn, karn from tron, lotv from jund/junk and etc but they wun necessary fall apart.
Edit: for delver and cruise, I do think the ban of cruise weaken the deck alot but it is still playable just that there are better choices to play over delver in general..
I disagree, I only ran 3 TCs in my build and switched them out with telling times and I am beating Junk, Infect, Burn, Affinity, Amulet all day long. The deck has not lost that much power, people are just not trying hard enough.
But I am not here to change your mind. You continue doing what you do, and I will do the same. As I have been told, local metas dont matter in this game.
You have to be joking. I've seen a ton of people say that UR Delver needed to be hit, but someone pretending that it isn't a big deal that the deck lost (for the way the deck played out) a 1 mana +2 card advantage spell is a new one. Comparing it to a one mana LOOK at three cards? Really? Cheap, raw advantage spells are unprecedented for tempo decks. The "4 cards tops" is particularly hilarious, as any individual ban (excluding a hypothetical Relentless Rats variety) is "4 cards tops." Tons of decks would fall apart with the loss of "just" 4 cards.
I would love to know what decks fall apart if they just lose 4 cards.. This isn't sarcasm by the way.
I know some decks will fall apart if they lose their key cards like twin losing twin, scapeshift losing scapeshift, bloom titan losing amulet.. Mostly are combo decks who will fall apart if 4 of their key cards are taken away. But most decks doesn't I believe. Of course it make them alot weaker like taking away eidolon from burn, karn from tron, lotv from jund/junk and etc but they wun necessary fall apart.
Edit: for delver and cruise, I do think the ban of cruise weaken the deck alot but it is still playable just that there are better choices to play over delver in general..
It's playable in the sense that yes it is a deck you can play, but it is NOT tournament viable any longer. That's the point people are making. It drops back to tier 2.5. And zoo if it lost any of its efficient creatures would become unplayable I bet. ESPECIALLY goyf.
I disagree, I only ran 3 TCs in my build and switched them out with telling times and I am beating Junk, Infect, Burn, Affinity, Amulet all day long. The deck has not lost that much power, people are just not trying hard enough.
But I am not here to change your mind. You continue doing what you do, and I will do the same. As I have been told, local metas dont matter in this game.
You have to be joking. I've seen a ton of people say that UR Delver needed to be hit, but someone pretending that it isn't a big deal that the deck lost (for the way the deck played out) a 1 mana +2 card advantage spell is a new one. Comparing it to a one mana LOOK at three cards? Really? Cheap, raw advantage spells are unprecedented for tempo decks. The "4 cards tops" is particularly hilarious, as any individual ban (excluding a hypothetical Relentless Rats variety) is "4 cards tops." Tons of decks would fall apart with the loss of "just" 4 cards.
I would love to know what decks fall apart if they just lose 4 cards.. This isn't sarcasm by the way.
I know some decks will fall apart if they lose their key cards like twin losing twin, scapeshift losing scapeshift, bloom titan losing amulet.. Mostly are combo decks who will fall apart if 4 of their key cards are taken away. But most decks doesn't I believe. Of course it make them alot weaker like taking away eidolon from burn, karn from tron, lotv from jund/junk and etc but they wun necessary fall apart.
Edit: for delver and cruise, I do think the ban of cruise weaken the deck alot but it is still playable just that there are better choices to play over delver in general..
It's playable in the sense that yes it is a deck you can play, but it is NOT tournament viable any longer. That's the point people are making. It drops back to tier 2.5. And zoo if it lost any of its efficient creatures would become unplayable I bet. ESPECIALLY goyf.
Hmm. I won't disagree with that though. It is probably still playable in local small stores and lgs but probably not really that good a choice to play in bigger tournaments especially with the current meta.
It might have survived as a 1.5 or solid tier 2 deck with dig through time but with out either its just not competitive. I might actually save up for the legacy version of it. Been in love with the deck since it came out in standard and legacy looks like the only place ill get to enjoy it.
Anyways as far as Bloom Titan goes it wont surprise me if wizards end up banning it if it keeps doing well but that deck would just fold to a solid control deck.
Edit: Actually in a way Bloom Titan really reminds me of 4cc ascendancy.
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SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
To get the turn 2 prime time, I need amulet of vigor, summer bloom, bounce land with green, prime time/summoners pact. Its a 4 card combo that dies to disruption, is incredibly all in, and folds to removal, as you cant pay for a pact of negation the turn you summoners pact. The deck also folds to blood moon, HARD. Pod didn't 100% fold to anything really, that's what made it so good.
Do you also have a problem with Emrakul reanimator, or Infect, other fast combo decks?
Removal? What removal. Path to Exile? You going to suggest every deck plays 4 and just hopes to have it when they need it?
What about turn 2 hive mind?
Summer Bloom makes this deck too fast. Otherwise it is fair.
The is the problem with the banning strategy of Wizards. They have made combo decks too powerful now.
Not even a metagame full of 30% Abzan with the anti-combo discard spells could stop 2 combo decks being in the finals of a PT. That to me shows we have gone from one broken (I didn't think it was broken Wizards did) metagame to another broken metagame.
I don't want to play a format where I have to be afraid of being comboed out on every single turn.
Something in Bloom Titan should be banned. It's not the midrange creature deck that WotC wants for Modern. I'm looking at you Hive Mind. /sarcasm
We had a player who played Bloom Titan for at least a year at our LGS. He did pretty well, but not overwhelmingly well. I personally had the deck since that time too, but never wanted to play it because I could never draw like he did. The deck is the premier example of a deck with variance. Also, like others have said, it folds to disruption. Stuff like Path to Exile rarely matters because they can Tolaria West/bounceland to start Summoner's Pact again. I knew that if I wanted to beat the deck, I could play Blue Moon since Blood Moon is so crippling (yes they play 4 Seal of Primordium in the SB). The deck doesn't really have something that is bannable, but that never stopped Wizards before.
As for me, I am currently selling the whole deck to make money preemptively before possible bans. Honestly I would rather the deck didn't do well and spike.
I'm pretty sure that if you ask anyone here about their local meta, no Bloom Titan player is doing consistently well when the opponents played some Blood Moons. (Unless that player is that much better of a player than the rest.)
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I'm not sure this belongs in the banned thread or the metagame thread, but it touches on both and I keep up with this thread more than the other (though I can't fathom why).
Bocephus replied to me in the PT FTR thread but it was locked before I saw it. It was Bocephus quoting me quoting someone else. Here's my response:
I'm kind of sad that zero delver decks did anything as I enjoyed watching the deck. Bans must really have affected it more than the pod ban I guess.
Banning Treasure Cruise killed Delver. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. It was tier 2.5/3 before KTK and now it's back there.
TC was 4 cards tops, in the deck. Delver is still playable, people just are mad at the moment.
Yes it was 4 cards tops, but Delver simply was not competitively viable before the introduction of those 4 cards. Before TC Delver was a slow aggro deck that couldn't match something like Affinity without the right hands or a white splash and it couldn't finish off a deck like UWR Mid/Control or Jund/Junk before they turned the corner. TC did not speed it up but it gave Delver the ability to maintain its pressure when it simply couldn't do that before. Now it simply can't do that once again and it will be returned to the depths of barely being mediocre.
I disagree, I only ran 3 TCs in my build and switched them out with telling times and I am beating Junk, Infect, Burn, Affinity, Amulet all day long. The deck has not lost that much power, people are just not trying hard enough.
But I am not here to change your mind. You continue doing what you do, and I will do the same. As I have been told, local metas dont matter in this game.
Telling Time gives no card advanatage. It is just a bad Serum Visions in Delver. I've tried it too (though this was in WUR Delver, not UR Delver). It isn't great. Also, if a 2 mana spell is keeping it consistent just as much as Cruise, does that mean that Wizards should ban Telling Time because it allows too much consistency? It seems like if you were correct (and if anyone with any success in the game actually adopted your deck, maybe one of those pros who you always hang out with), Wizards would have to do that to maintain their (aka your) vision of the format.
I disagree, I only ran 3 TCs in my build and switched them out with telling times and I am beating Junk, Infect, Burn, Affinity, Amulet all day long. The deck has not lost that much power, people are just not trying hard enough.
But I am not here to change your mind. You continue doing what you do, and I will do the same. As I have been told, local metas dont matter in this game.
You have to be joking. I've seen a ton of people say that UR Delver needed to be hit, but someone pretending that it isn't a big deal that the deck lost (for the way the deck played out) a 1 mana +2 card advantage spell is a new one. Comparing it to a one mana LOOK at three cards? Really? Cheap, raw advantage spells are unprecedented for tempo decks. The "4 cards tops" is particularly hilarious, as any individual ban (excluding a hypothetical Relentless Rats variety) is "4 cards tops." Tons of decks would fall apart with the loss of "just" 4 cards.
I would love to know what decks fall apart if they just lose 4 cards.. This isn't sarcasm by the way.
I know some decks will fall apart if they lose their key cards like twin losing twin, scapeshift losing scapeshift, bloom titan losing amulet.. Mostly are combo decks who will fall apart if 4 of their key cards are taken away. But most decks doesn't I believe. Of course it make them alot weaker like taking away eidolon from burn, karn from tron, lotv from jund/junk and etc but they wun necessary fall apart.
Edit: for delver and cruise, I do think the ban of cruise weaken the deck alot but it is still playable just that there are better choices to play over delver in general..
Yeah, there are better choices to play over it in general. That is why it is unplayable. It folds to a single removal spell, can't grind out games, and doesn't even have a massive payoff when everything does go right. Almost every other deck in Modern is just better than UR Delver now.
To get the turn 2 prime time, I need amulet of vigor, summer bloom, bounce land with green, prime time/summoners pact. Its a 4 card combo that dies to disruption, is incredibly all in, and folds to removal, as you cant pay for a pact of negation the turn you summoners pact. The deck also folds to blood moon, HARD. Pod didn't 100% fold to anything really, that's what made it so good.
Do you also have a problem with Emrakul reanimator, or Infect, other fast combo decks?
Removal? What removal. Path to Exile? You going to suggest every deck plays 4 and just hopes to have it when they need it?
What about turn 2 hive mind?
Summer Bloom makes this deck too fast. Otherwise it is fair.
The is the problem with the banning strategy of Wizards. They have made combo decks too powerful now.
Not even a metagame full of 30% Abzan with the anti-combo discard spells could stop 2 combo decks being in the finals of a PT. That to me shows we have gone from one broken (I didn't think it was broken Wizards did) metagame to another broken metagame.
I don't want to play a format where I have to be afraid of being comboed out on every single turn.
To be fair, Jesse Hampton misplaying was the only reason why it won the semifinals. If he had just taken the Amulet and the Summer Bloom from Justin's hand, he would have easily won.
I disagree, I only ran 3 TCs in my build and switched them out with telling times and I am beating Junk, Infect, Burn, Affinity, Amulet all day long. The deck has not lost that much power, people are just not trying hard enough.
But I am not here to change your mind. You continue doing what you do, and I will do the same. As I have been told, local metas dont matter in this game.
You have to be joking. I've seen a ton of people say that UR Delver needed to be hit, but someone pretending that it isn't a big deal that the deck lost (for the way the deck played out) a 1 mana +2 card advantage spell is a new one. Comparing it to a one mana LOOK at three cards? Really? Cheap, raw advantage spells are unprecedented for tempo decks. The "4 cards tops" is particularly hilarious, as any individual ban (excluding a hypothetical Relentless Rats variety) is "4 cards tops." Tons of decks would fall apart with the loss of "just" 4 cards.
I would love to know what decks fall apart if they just lose 4 cards.. This isn't sarcasm by the way.
I know some decks will fall apart if they lose their key cards like twin losing twin, scapeshift losing scapeshift, bloom titan losing amulet.. Mostly are combo decks who will fall apart if 4 of their key cards are taken away. But most decks doesn't I believe. Of course it make them alot weaker like taking away eidolon from burn, karn from tron, lotv from jund/junk and etc but they wun necessary fall apart.
Edit: for delver and cruise, I do think the ban of cruise weaken the deck alot but it is still playable just that there are better choices to play over delver in general..
Well this is awkward. You asked for a list of decks, then proceeded to make a list for me. I never said "non-combo" decks, so your own list actually sufficiently proves my point, but I'll play along.
For starters, how about Pod? Maybe a trivial example like Urza's Tower? I'd wager that a number of Uxx decks without Snappy would be pretty terribad. Even decks that have "replaceable" cards like Lingering Souls in tokens would be rough. A Lightning Bolt ban would kill Jund in this meta. (Yes, red has other cards, but white is already a better option, even with Bolt in the format). If Blood Moon were banned, I don't know how one would play "Blue Moon" instead of some UWR deck.
Also, if there "are better choices to play over delver in general," then you're essentially saying that it is only being played for funsies or for budgetary reasons. If there are better decks in general than deck X, deck X is not competitive.
To be fair, Jesse Hampton misplaying was the only reason why it won the semifinals. If he had just taken the Amulet and the Summer Bloom from Justin's hand, he would have easily won.
So you are saying the meta needs time to adjust?
That theory doesn't hold water either. The metagame was adjusting to Treasure Cruise and Birthing Pod just fine. Bannings came before things could be fully worked out. The metagame doesn't even itself out (according to Wizards), bannings are the only way forward.
I don't remember this at all. When/where were people testing GGT and claiming that? I remember people testing out Dread Return and concluding it broke the turn four rule and was too strong for Modern, but I can't remember anyone claiming that for GGT.
I believe it was Kenshin and Bocephus doing testing? Anyways, I called the GGT unban and DRS ban back in 2013:
I think Valanarch's sig says what half the people are saying in this thread....
Bloom Titan is fine, and if you take out the draft portion of the PT, Burn and Infect look like a bigger threat. But we all know at least burn can be hated out. If you are really scared of Bloom Titan just run some BW Tokens, 6 discard+4 Path with the option of Liliana from the side. You'll do fine.
Gonna go out on a limb here and see what you guys think:
What if they unbanned jace and bloodbraid elf together? Seems like the two balance each other out, in my opinion.
I'm just tired of this format. After playing this format since its inception, the latest b/r update now just makes me fear they'll keep banning ***** till it looks like standard. And it already feels like standard with all of these bg/x midrange decks going around.
Also, a big note to everyone in this thread:
QUIT COMPLAINING ABOUT DECKS THAT DO WELL!!! Every time a deck shows up in a top 8 people assume it must be just the ******* nuts. The fact that I'm seeing people calling for a summer bloom ban in this thread makes me want to scream. Half the reason birthing pod got banned is because people like you look at the results of an event and complain about the decks that happened to do well. Legacy has been dominated by decks like delver and sneak and show for ages and legacy players don't complain about them. If bg/x is top dog, ******* deal with it or just play a deck that beats the living ***** out of it if you hate it so much.
Metagame statistics and percentage of top 8's still does not directly equate to how good a deck really is. Please keep that in mind at all times.
tl;dr - quit crying for bans you noobs. Start crying for unbans instead.
Gonna go out on a limb here and see what you guys think:
What if they unbanned jace and bloodbraid elf together? Seems like the two balance each other out, in my opinion.
I'm just tired of this format. After playing this format since its inception, the latest b/r update now just makes me fear they'll keep banning ***** till it looks like standard. And it already feels like standard with all of these bg/x midrange decks going around.
Also, a big note to everyone in this thread:
QUIT COMPLAINING ABOUT DECKS THAT DO WELL!!! Every time a deck shows up in a top 8 people assume it must be just the ******* nuts. The fact that I'm seeing people calling for a summer bloom ban in this thread makes me want to scream. Half the reason birthing pod got banned is because people like you look at the results of an event and complain about the decks that happened to do well. Legacy has been dominated by decks like delver and sneak and show for ages and legacy players don't complain about them. If bg/x is top dog, ******* deal with it or just play a deck that beats the living ***** out of it if you hate it so much.
tl;dr - quit crying for bans you noobs. Start crying for unbans instead.
I know all the pro's want a BBE+Jace unban, and I do think modern technically has the tools to handle Jace, I'm not sure modern is ready for him. Though the brainstorm ability could be used for a bad counterbalance lock, making something like UW control much better. If Jace were released Jund would be much better positioned than most other decks due to Dreadbore, Hero's Downfall, and of course BBE. We don't really know if that would be enough, and I don't think Jace is even being talked about for the Modern unbans.
I know all the pro's want a BBE+Jace unban, and I do think modern technically has the tools to handle Jace, I'm not sure modern is ready for him. Though the brainstorm ability could be used for a bad counterbalance lock, making something like UW control much better. If Jace were released Jund would be much better positioned than most other decks due to Dreadbore, Hero's Downfall, and of course BBE. We don't really know if that would be enough, and I don't think Jace is even being talked about for the Modern unbans.
another factor that i think should be kept in mind for unbans imo is price. jace would spike sharply and immediately. right now there are already a couple of major price blocks in modern, most notably goyf, i dont think we need more.
there are other unbans that could help the same archetypes without throwing another hurdle in the way of players who dont have the means to overcome them. if jace was the only option, then you know what, sure, unban him and get him in MM2. but there ARE other options.
quick disclaimer. not saying expensive cards should be banned, not saying a card should not be unbanned only because it would be expensive, there are other factors, but price is one of them
another factor that i think should be kept in mind for unbans imo is price. jace would spike sharply and immediately. right now there are already a couple of major price blocks in modern, most notably goyf, i dont think we need more.
there are other unbans that could help the same archetypes without throwing another hurdle in the way of players who dont have the means to overcome them. if jace was the only option, then you know what, sure, unban him and get him in MM2. but there ARE other options.
quick disclaimer. not saying expensive cards should be banned, not saying a card should not be unbanned only because it would be expensive, there are other factors, but price is one of them
No. Price should not be one of them. I respect people's wallets, but for the sake of the format we cannot let price determine at all what the format should look like. As someone who owns lots of cards that are worth lots of money, I'd rather see them reprinted and bomb in value if it means more people playing the format...but if we decide to never unban a card because it would hurt people's wallets, wizards will never get the chance to even look into a reprint.
I 100% agree that it would spike in price and would make the format look even more expensive, but it clears the path for so much more.
Besides, can you imagine a format where cards were banned, even partly, based on price?
Gonna go out on a limb here and see what you guys think:
What if they unbanned jace and bloodbraid elf together? Seems like the two balance each other out, in my opinion.
I'm just tired of this format. After playing this format since its inception, the latest b/r update now just makes me fear they'll keep banning ***** till it looks like standard. And it already feels like standard with all of these bg/x midrange decks going around.
Also, a big note to everyone in this thread:
QUIT COMPLAINING ABOUT DECKS THAT DO WELL!!! Every time a deck shows up in a top 8 people assume it must be just the ******* nuts. The fact that I'm seeing people calling for a summer bloom ban in this thread makes me want to scream. Half the reason birthing pod got banned is because people like you look at the results of an event and complain about the decks that happened to do well. Legacy has been dominated by decks like delver and sneak and show for ages and legacy players don't complain about them. If bg/x is top dog, ******* deal with it or just play a deck that beats the living ***** out of it if you hate it so much.
Metagame statistics and percentage of top 8's still does not directly equate to how good a deck really is. Please keep that in mind at all times.
tl;dr - quit crying for bans you noobs. Start crying for unbans instead.
I think that BBE should stay since it would just make Jund coming back into power, which is another grindy B/G/X deck.
As for Jace, if he is unbanned, WoTC needs to print the **** out of him to reduce his already ****ed up price tag.
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Standard : What is Stand-tart
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
another factor that i think should be kept in mind for unbans imo is price. jace would spike sharply and immediately. right now there are already a couple of major price blocks in modern, most notably goyf, i dont think we need more.
there are other unbans that could help the same archetypes without throwing another hurdle in the way of players who dont have the means to overcome them. if jace was the only option, then you know what, sure, unban him and get him in MM2. but there ARE other options.
quick disclaimer. not saying expensive cards should be banned, not saying a card should not be unbanned only because it would be expensive, there are other factors, but price is one of them
No. Price should not be one of them. I respect people's wallets, but for the sake of the format we cannot let price determine at all what the format should look like. As someone who owns lots of cards that are worth lots of money, I'd rather see them reprinted and bomb in value if it means more people playing the format...but if we decide to never unban a card because it would hurt people's wallets, wizards will never get the chance to even look into a reprint.
I 100% agree that it would spike in price and would make the format look even more expensive, but it clears the path for so much more.
Besides, can you imagine a format where cards were banned, even partly, based on price?
I personally don't support bans based on price, but I can't support an unban of a card like Jace either. If Jace is unbanned, his price will at least triple. He can't be reprinted in Standard and he can't be reprinted below mythic. That means that the only way that Wizards can reduce the price of this very good card is by printing it as a mythic in a supplementary set, which has no guarantee to reduce the price. I don't want blue midrange and control to cost as much as green aggro, green midrange, and black midrange decks do in Modern, and I know that I am not alone in this.
Its been a while since I've posted in this thread. I've mostly lost interest in the question of what should and shouldn't be banned in modern. The type of data I need, just doesn't really seem to be assemblable .
That said, serious talk of bans or unbans at the moment is simply crazy. We haven't even had a month since the last bans. Nobody has an accurate picture of what modern will look like in a month. It's just not worth discussing questions like 'Should BloomTitan get Banned?' or 'Should Abzan get banned?' It's just too early.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
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To get the turn 2 prime time, I need amulet of vigor, summer bloom, bounce land with green, prime time/summoners pact. Its a 4 card combo that dies to disruption, is incredibly all in, and folds to removal, as you cant pay for a pact of negation the turn you summoners pact. The deck also folds to blood moon, HARD. Pod didn't 100% fold to anything really, that's what made it so good.
Do you also have a problem with Emrakul reanimator, or Infect, other fast combo decks?
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I disagree, I only ran 3 TCs in my build and switched them out with telling times and I am beating Junk, Infect, Burn, Affinity, Amulet all day long. The deck has not lost that much power, people are just not trying hard enough.
But I am not here to change your mind. You continue doing what you do, and I will do the same. As I have been told, local metas dont matter in this game.
Very true, look what just happened Pod...
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I would love to know what decks fall apart if they just lose 4 cards.. This isn't sarcasm by the way.
I know some decks will fall apart if they lose their key cards like twin losing twin, scapeshift losing scapeshift, bloom titan losing amulet.. Mostly are combo decks who will fall apart if 4 of their key cards are taken away. But most decks doesn't I believe. Of course it make them alot weaker like taking away eidolon from burn, karn from tron, lotv from jund/junk and etc but they wun necessary fall apart.
Edit: for delver and cruise, I do think the ban of cruise weaken the deck alot but it is still playable just that there are better choices to play over delver in general..
It's playable in the sense that yes it is a deck you can play, but it is NOT tournament viable any longer. That's the point people are making. It drops back to tier 2.5. And zoo if it lost any of its efficient creatures would become unplayable I bet. ESPECIALLY goyf.
Anyways as far as Bloom Titan goes it wont surprise me if wizards end up banning it if it keeps doing well but that deck would just fold to a solid control deck.
Edit: Actually in a way Bloom Titan really reminds me of 4cc ascendancy.
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Removal? What removal. Path to Exile? You going to suggest every deck plays 4 and just hopes to have it when they need it?
What about turn 2 hive mind?
Summer Bloom makes this deck too fast. Otherwise it is fair.
The is the problem with the banning strategy of Wizards. They have made combo decks too powerful now.
Not even a metagame full of 30% Abzan with the anti-combo discard spells could stop 2 combo decks being in the finals of a PT. That to me shows we have gone from one broken (I didn't think it was broken Wizards did) metagame to another broken metagame.
I don't want to play a format where I have to be afraid of being comboed out on every single turn.
We had a player who played Bloom Titan for at least a year at our LGS. He did pretty well, but not overwhelmingly well. I personally had the deck since that time too, but never wanted to play it because I could never draw like he did. The deck is the premier example of a deck with variance. Also, like others have said, it folds to disruption. Stuff like Path to Exile rarely matters because they can Tolaria West/bounceland to start Summoner's Pact again. I knew that if I wanted to beat the deck, I could play Blue Moon since Blood Moon is so crippling (yes they play 4 Seal of Primordium in the SB). The deck doesn't really have something that is bannable, but that never stopped Wizards before.
As for me, I am currently selling the whole deck to make money preemptively before possible bans. Honestly I would rather the deck didn't do well and spike.
I'm pretty sure that if you ask anyone here about their local meta, no Bloom Titan player is doing consistently well when the opponents played some Blood Moons. (Unless that player is that much better of a player than the rest.)
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Telling Time gives no card advanatage. It is just a bad Serum Visions in Delver. I've tried it too (though this was in WUR Delver, not UR Delver). It isn't great. Also, if a 2 mana spell is keeping it consistent just as much as Cruise, does that mean that Wizards should ban Telling Time because it allows too much consistency? It seems like if you were correct (and if anyone with any success in the game actually adopted your deck, maybe one of those pros who you always hang out with), Wizards would have to do that to maintain their (aka your) vision of the format.
Yeah, there are better choices to play over it in general. That is why it is unplayable. It folds to a single removal spell, can't grind out games, and doesn't even have a massive payoff when everything does go right. Almost every other deck in Modern is just better than UR Delver now.
To be fair, Jesse Hampton misplaying was the only reason why it won the semifinals. If he had just taken the Amulet and the Summer Bloom from Justin's hand, he would have easily won.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
For starters, how about Pod? Maybe a trivial example like Urza's Tower? I'd wager that a number of Uxx decks without Snappy would be pretty terribad. Even decks that have "replaceable" cards like Lingering Souls in tokens would be rough. A Lightning Bolt ban would kill Jund in this meta. (Yes, red has other cards, but white is already a better option, even with Bolt in the format). If Blood Moon were banned, I don't know how one would play "Blue Moon" instead of some UWR deck.
Also, if there "are better choices to play over delver in general," then you're essentially saying that it is only being played for funsies or for budgetary reasons. If there are better decks in general than deck X, deck X is not competitive.
So you are saying the meta needs time to adjust?
That theory doesn't hold water either. The metagame was adjusting to Treasure Cruise and Birthing Pod just fine. Bannings came before things could be fully worked out. The metagame doesn't even itself out (according to Wizards), bannings are the only way forward.
I believe it was Kenshin and Bocephus doing testing? Anyways, I called the GGT unban and DRS ban back in 2013:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/224337-current-modern-banned-list-discussion-announced?comment=4218
Mind you I also wanted thoughtsieze and chrome mox to swap so you can hammer me for being only half right.
Bloom Titan is fine, and if you take out the draft portion of the PT, Burn and Infect look like a bigger threat. But we all know at least burn can be hated out. If you are really scared of Bloom Titan just run some BW Tokens, 6 discard+4 Path with the option of Liliana from the side. You'll do fine.
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What if they unbanned jace and bloodbraid elf together? Seems like the two balance each other out, in my opinion.
I'm just tired of this format. After playing this format since its inception, the latest b/r update now just makes me fear they'll keep banning ***** till it looks like standard. And it already feels like standard with all of these bg/x midrange decks going around.
Also, a big note to everyone in this thread:
QUIT COMPLAINING ABOUT DECKS THAT DO WELL!!! Every time a deck shows up in a top 8 people assume it must be just the ******* nuts. The fact that I'm seeing people calling for a summer bloom ban in this thread makes me want to scream. Half the reason birthing pod got banned is because people like you look at the results of an event and complain about the decks that happened to do well. Legacy has been dominated by decks like delver and sneak and show for ages and legacy players don't complain about them. If bg/x is top dog, ******* deal with it or just play a deck that beats the living ***** out of it if you hate it so much.
Metagame statistics and percentage of top 8's still does not directly equate to how good a deck really is. Please keep that in mind at all times.
tl;dr - quit crying for bans you noobs. Start crying for unbans instead.
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Amen.
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Who's the Beatdown
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another factor that i think should be kept in mind for unbans imo is price. jace would spike sharply and immediately. right now there are already a couple of major price blocks in modern, most notably goyf, i dont think we need more.
there are other unbans that could help the same archetypes without throwing another hurdle in the way of players who dont have the means to overcome them. if jace was the only option, then you know what, sure, unban him and get him in MM2. but there ARE other options.
quick disclaimer. not saying expensive cards should be banned, not saying a card should not be unbanned only because it would be expensive, there are other factors, but price is one of them
No. Price should not be one of them. I respect people's wallets, but for the sake of the format we cannot let price determine at all what the format should look like. As someone who owns lots of cards that are worth lots of money, I'd rather see them reprinted and bomb in value if it means more people playing the format...but if we decide to never unban a card because it would hurt people's wallets, wizards will never get the chance to even look into a reprint.
I 100% agree that it would spike in price and would make the format look even more expensive, but it clears the path for so much more.
Besides, can you imagine a format where cards were banned, even partly, based on price?
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
I think that BBE should stay since it would just make Jund coming back into power, which is another grindy B/G/X deck.
As for Jace, if he is unbanned, WoTC needs to print the **** out of him to reduce his already ****ed up price tag.
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
I personally don't support bans based on price, but I can't support an unban of a card like Jace either. If Jace is unbanned, his price will at least triple. He can't be reprinted in Standard and he can't be reprinted below mythic. That means that the only way that Wizards can reduce the price of this very good card is by printing it as a mythic in a supplementary set, which has no guarantee to reduce the price. I don't want blue midrange and control to cost as much as green aggro, green midrange, and black midrange decks do in Modern, and I know that I am not alone in this.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
That said, serious talk of bans or unbans at the moment is simply crazy. We haven't even had a month since the last bans. Nobody has an accurate picture of what modern will look like in a month. It's just not worth discussing questions like 'Should BloomTitan get Banned?' or 'Should Abzan get banned?' It's just too early.
- Manite