So you want even a less of a chance to rip the cards everyone wants. There is a reason sets are the size they are. They tried bigger sets in the past and they sold terribly. Even though some of those sets are looked at as some of the best sets Wotc ever made.
That's kind of the point tough, i would like if all of the rares and mythics were modern playable and kind of expensive, like 10+ dollar so every pack will get you money back at launch, and also this would allow wizards to not tank the prices immediately while still printing on demand, if the prices went down 80% in 4 years that would be fantastic, if the wend down 50% in 1 year that would atrocious.
You are only thinking about one side of the equation. Wotc and LGS need boxes to sell or be ripped open for them to make money. If the player base shies away (which they have done in the past to big sets) Wotc and the LGS dont make money and it hurts more then just Modern. Wotc has to make money and the lGS have to have a reason to get boxes for the price in any format to be effected.
If by buying a box you're guaranteed to make money the set will sell, they could also push it and make the mythich chance from 1/8 to 1/4 just for modern masters
Again, history has proven this to be wrong. Even with large sets that money could be made, people didnt buy boxes. They stuck to singles because there was too many cards to hope you rip the right ones. This is why we have the smaller sets we have today.
As for a Modern Event Deck, if Wizards is adamant about the ridiculous price tag, they could've made this shell instead, which would've been much better than the half-hearted BW Tokens shell. This is a decent start for a new player. And if you modify the deck and add Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, Arcbound Ravager, and Mox Opal, bam, there is your tier 1 deck. Was something like this too much to ask?
Market makes the price, if the goyfs are 200$ bills it's because someone still buy them at that price. Blame the player base not the wotc.
- L
Actually it is at least partly WotC's fault, you see, prices tend to be dictated by something called supply and demand. With a larger supply, it will outstrip current demand, and prices will usually go down because stores realize they can move more product by lowering their prices and attracting more customers. With something like Goyf and the current supply, lowering their prices is a bad idea because the demand far outstrips the supply, so they raise prices so they don't run out and can get the maximum out of customers for their limited supply, just as long as they have a decent chance of selling at all. The players do set a _max_ price that they'll pay for a certain card, and I'd say $200 is pretty crazy there for a piece of cardboard, but the price _will_ go down if WotC prints enough that stores feel safe selling more that they won't run out of supply.
To that end, limited print runs tend to be terrible for managing prices, which makes things like Modern Masters, with it's limited print runs, bad for controlling prices of highly in-demand cards like Goyf, especially printed as mythic rares, and if Modern Masters increases demand by increasing popularity of Modern, more than it's limited supply increases the supply.
Well the goyf problem it's a problem that could be solved only with power creep unfortunately.
There is no way that a tarmogoyf power level creature would be printed in standard right now and supplementary products don't solve the problem even with rare rarity (see Cryptic Command).
The issue with directly Goyf's price rise has been that there is only one entire reprint of the card in it's over ten year history. It is also used for Legacy and Modern, which the cards that it shares with tend to be very pricy. WotC could have and should have reprinted Goyf multiple times by now as compared to some other cards. However, they're too fearful of overpowering Standard and won't reprint certain cards like Liliana of the Veil. Which basically means that Standard is not a reliable source of reprints, nor are the specialty sets, nor are the Modern Masters sets.
Now what has yet to be established is whether the Modern Masters will be a biannual event, still a limited print run, and whether they going to reprint other cards. Which is fine, however Goyf not being reprinted is a large problem with the supply side and has been rather irresponsible to increase the number of players inside of Magic. Furthermore, power creep isn't a problem when the ban list can also be used. Goyf has been debated for years whether or not to be banned, and overall I feel it is bad for the format as it decreases variety with the format. Decks become "Tarmo+" versions become rather ridiculous.
If Fish is any indicator that there is a power level for tribal that hasn't been touched for years. There is no reason why Minotaurs could not be Tier 2, and there is little reason why a tier 1 soldier deck could not exist. The same with zombies. The key to the decks are strong two drops that are utility, power ups, or lords. Most zombie lords are either 3 or 4 slot, right now zombie lacks a good two drop lord. Soldiers do not have access to a powerful lord at two drop. Knights do not have a powerful lord at two drop, and lack a good one drop. Humans could be a contender, but again lack the capacity for a definable lord for two drop. Simply stated these would not break standard, and are not out of the realm for the decks. I feel that overall Tribal is a failing area that could use some concentrated love with a long term view, but they would also have to get comfortable with printing more tribal lords than they do now. Which, quite frankly, shoving some of the less desirable rares out the door might be a boon to many fans of specific creature types and help to diversify tier 1.
With that said, there is a lot of design space left for two drops such as Young Pyromancer that can help to support already existing deck types but also help over time to breed new ones. There is also pushing specific mechanics slightly harder over the years to allow space to build decks around them. To this WotC's fear of overpowering standard since the failure of affinity is apparent. Yet, that is the failure of free spells rather than exploring design space such as with Prowess or Delve that have both proven to be game changers for Modern without making Standard untenable.
Goyf is both a design problem that could be solved without devastating results, but also with a hard ban. They format is healthy, but could probably use to have cards specifically designed for it rather than relying on Standard to cough something up. A "core set" of some sort, rather than just a Modern Masters or some sort of way to make it an "eternal" without being "eternal" but probably too much headache.
Goyf itself is both a real problem with the format, but also a poster defining child of a larger issue that diversity for the sake of diversity is bad. That you need both strength and diversity to increase an interesting dynamic. But this also means the creation of new deck variants, which is something that is hard to do within the current design philosophy.
Maybe you're right, and i'm too new to the game to know this. But i find kind of strange not buying packs of a set where the expected value of said pack is always greater than the cost of the pack.
The main issue is that there's a lot of hidden costs that quickly eat away at that expected value. Say I open a card worth $10, but it's a card I don't ever plan to play. I now have to get rid of it to get that value. If I sell it to a store or eBay it, then I lose a portion of the value in the transaction. If I try to trade it, I have to deal with all the inefficiency of finding a partner who wants it, has enough value to get it, and then actually making the transaction work. The best case scenario is finding someone who will just buy it from me for something close to its value, but that's often rare.
Because of all that, a lot of us just find it more simple and efficient to just buy singles and never buy boxes. I only ever buy a box if a) it has a lot of commons that I know I'll want; b) it has a high number of rares/uncommons that I know I want; and c) there are a high number of rares that I know will be easy to move (usually lands). As examples, the only boxes I've recently bought are Theros and Khans, which both had widely-used lands (which were desirable to have in my collection, and were easy to trade), along with a pretty high density of other desirable cards as well.
The issue with directly Goyf's price rise has been that there is only one entire reprint of the card in it's over ten year history. It is also used for Legacy and Modern, which the cards that it shares with tend to be very pricy. WotC could have and should have reprinted Goyf multiple times by now as compared to some other cards. However, they're too fearful of overpowering Standard and won't reprint certain cards like Liliana of the Veil. Which basically means that Standard is not a reliable source of reprints, nor are the specialty sets, nor are the Modern Masters sets.
Now what has yet to be established is whether the Modern Masters will be a biannual event, still a limited print run, and whether they going to reprint other cards. Which is fine, however Goyf not being reprinted is a large problem with the supply side and has been rather irresponsible to increase the number of players inside of Magic. Furthermore, power creep isn't a problem when the ban list can also be used. Goyf has been debated for years whether or not to be banned, and overall I feel it is bad for the format as it decreases variety with the format. Decks become "Tarmo+" versions become rather ridiculous.
If Fish is any indicator that there is a power level for tribal that hasn't been touched for years. There is no reason why Minotaurs could not be Tier 2, and there is little reason why a tier 1 soldier deck could not exist. The same with zombies. The key to the decks are strong two drops that are utility, power ups, or lords. Most zombie lords are either 3 or 4 slot, right now zombie lacks a good two drop lord. Soldiers do not have access to a powerful lord at two drop. Knights do not have a powerful lord at two drop, and lack a good one drop. Humans could be a contender, but again lack the capacity for a definable lord for two drop. Simply stated these would not break standard, and are not out of the realm for the decks. I feel that overall Tribal is a failing area that could use some concentrated love with a long term view, but they would also have to get comfortable with printing more tribal lords than they do now. Which, quite frankly, shoving some of the less desirable rares out the door might be a boon to many fans of specific creature types and help to diversify tier 1.
Not every tribal deck needs to set up like merfolk. Goblins would get much better with there best two drop Goblin Piledriver. I think he is perfectly safe in modern, as nearly all of moderns removal can deal with it. Zombies need a better form of card advantage, but are set up really well to be a solid MBC list if given the right tools like Unholy Grotto, and a better Graveborn Muse. Heck, even just a solid ETB two drop zombie would much improve my casual (modern legal) Mono Black Zombie combo list. I do feel like Wizards missed out on a big tribal boon by not having Monastery Mentor make humans, to trigger Champion of the Parish. The only issue there is the poor interatcion with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, but I don't really mind. Fairies need either un bans in the form of AV or Sword of the Meek, or just the right build, I'm unsure. Vampires are also really close to having a decent aggro list, with Bump in the Night, Bolt, and a slew of one and two drops, most of which they already have.
Now back on topic....
Reprints are only good if you can pick up the singles before the influx of new players, through the singles market, which can be hard to do. Unless Wizards prints Goyf in a M16 (unlikely) he will stay expensive. Its the same with Cryptic Command, though I think a reprint would bring it's price down more, as it sees less play, and in fewer decks than Goyf. If Fairies ever found it's feet, that could easily change though.
Wizards wants to support Modern while also not crashing prices, which means reprinting relief will come slowly, with plenty of warning time for the people who have heavily invested for their own personal gain. While this does serve to somewhat stunt the growth and influx of new players, it keeps the old players around, which is just as, if not more, important. They are not only reprinting cards, but also trying to print cards that do somewhat of the same thing, just in a slightly different way. Most are misses, but a few here and there, haven't been bad. Give them time and the prices should go down as long as they stay true to the new "aggressive reprints" and bi annual MM sets. Lets just hope they don't crash the format with bans before that happens.
As for a Modern Event Deck, if Wizards is adamant about the ridiculous price tag, they could've made this shell instead, which would've been much better than the half-hearted BW Tokens shell. This is a decent start for a new player. And if you modify the deck and add Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, Arcbound Ravager, and Mox Opal, bam, there is your tier 1 deck. Was something like this too much to ask?
You are not thinking of the cost to package the cards also. A deck like you have above would probably be a $35-$50 deck with the cards worth about $25-$40. The problem being most would already have a good chunk of the cards. Needing another $200-$400 worth of cards to make a T1 deck? At least with the BW tokens it was $75, had over $100 worth of cards at the time, and only took about $100-$150 to make it playable in the format.
Quote from AgrusKosEnforcerofTruth »
I just hope the success of Modern Masters gives Wizards a big enough financial incentive to print Legacy Masters #ReservedListHasGotToGo
I wouldnt hold your breath. I dont for see that kind of set ever coming out in paper. I wouldnt be surprised to see Modern the only 'older' format in 5 years or so, at least that sees sanctioned play.
Wizards wants to support Modern while also not crashing prices, which means reprinting relief will come slowly, with plenty of warning time for the people who have heavily invested for their own personal gain. While this does serve to somewhat stunt the growth and influx of new players, it keeps the old players around, which is just as, if not more, important. They are not only reprinting cards, but also trying to print cards that do somewhat of the same thing, just in a slightly different way. Most are misses, but a few here and there, haven't been bad. Give them time and the prices should go down as long as they stay true to the new "aggressive reprints" and bi annual MM sets. Lets just hope they don't crash the format with bans before that happens.
That's also the issue, there are older players who want to enter the format or go deeper, but price barriers keep them from expanding into other deck archtypes as easily. This is why Standard is so popular, because you can build multiple decks rather easily. They're mostly scared of a repeat of Anthologies. They're conservative because of the original price crash, however there is much debate over price crash. Simply stated that some of the specific cards reprinted in Anthologies weren't able to hold their real price simply because the cards intrinsically sucked and were held aloft by low supply.
Altogether, if anyone who is in the collector's market for anything understands price fluctuations. The reserved list has created enough "blue chips," that I feel that when cards get to a certain price point they become too great. One of the original reasons for Modern was to create a place for lower price entry level points. Which probably has to do more with the original point about design for cards. Which, ironically, writing/emailing to the people who make the game to voice opinion on that is a part of market feedback. It works.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Life is a beautiful engineer, yet a brutal scientist.
Their reasoning for banning Birthing Pod prevents them from printing certain creatures, is the same logic as Goyf preventing many creatures from seeing play. Both cards are too efficient, stifling potential design/gameplay. Since goyf won't be banned, it's reasonable to ask for a few more printings.
Same as Lightning Bolt, but that definitely won't get banned. It's like Brainstorm in Legacy: everybody acknowledges that it's way too good, but has fun playing the card anyway. Eitehr your deck is prepared to beat it, or is definitely playing it.
You are not thinking of the cost to package the cards also. A deck like you have above would probably be a $35-$50 deck with the cards worth about $25-$40. The problem being most would already have a good chunk of the cards. Needing another $200-$400 worth of cards to make a T1 deck? At least with the BW tokens it was $75, had over $100 worth of cards at the time, and only took about $100-$150 to make it playable in the format.
You do have some valid points. But out of the box, an Affinity shell would be a lot more competitive than a BW Tokens shell. Also, this shell can be a fully-upgraded to a tier 1 deck capable of taking a Grand Prix, while a fully-upgraded BW Tokens deck isn't that competitive. I think this product could've been a lot more successful and actually get more people to play Modern.
Totally not even gonna crack open a pack, prob just gonna buy the singles as they go down in price and dem... why u no Blood Moon, it's gonna go up in price now =(
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard : What is Stand-tart
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
YuGiOh is bad because instead of banning oppressive cards, they choose to print more of them so that every deck has those tools.
That being said you can't be faulted for looking at the good that YuGiOh does do. Which isn't much, but it is solid.
That is just wrong, Konami does ban the actually oppressive cards, like they did actually two months ago with a limitation of a card called Vanity Emptyiness and banning the 4 D-Rulers. And limitation of Skill and Soul Drain. But on the topic of reprints, but at my local college, after RtR rotation 60 Card MtG died. Sense no one wanted to buy into Theros-Khans Standard, and most of us could not afford to upgrade to modern versions of our Theros-RtR standards, Cryptics and such for our Jeskai Player, Splintertwin for our Combo Player, etc.
So I rather err on the side of mass reprints if it means I can find games and not twiddle my metamorphical thumbs.
"I'm going to ask this again, why are these packs $10 each exactly? What determined that WOTC is going to set the prices right there? Booster packs that aren't worth their own cost is nothing new. This has long been a gamble. But $10 boosters? This creates a terrible climate. This is WOTC saying to kids, teenagers, adults to who are on a fixed or tight budget, that this product is not for them, it may even be saying that this game is not for them. I do not like this trend of making the game more and more expensive, especially if there is no reason for it beyond the fact that there are people willing to pay it. The lack of financial value in these packs can be explained away by design error. But the cost? Pure, cynical, and reckless greed. That's not what this company should be putting out. WOTC, you are already filthy rich. Look the mirror and realign your goal from making as much money as possible no matter what, to making the best product possible first and foremost. "
I'm going to ask this again, why are these packs $10 each exactly? What determined that WOTC is going to set the prices right there? Booster packs that aren't worth their own cost is nothing new. This has long been a gamble. But $10 boosters? This creates a terrible climate. This is WOTC saying to kids, teenagers, adults to who are on a fixed or tight budget, that this product is not for them, it may even be saying that this game is not for them.
Most likely, the product (Modern Masters) isn't for them. What's the issue here?
I do not like this trend of making the game more and more expensive, especially if there is no reason for it beyond the fact that there are people willing to pay it.
If people are willing to pay a higher price, companies will charge a higher price. That's how price setting works. This is basic economics. It is a little more complicated than that, to be fair, but that's the basic way it works.
The lack of financial value in these packs can be explained away by design error.
Or maybe they remembered the complaints about the last set never being sold by MSRP and tried to fix that.
But the cost? Pure, cynical, and reckless greed.
This Just In: Companies that are dedicated to making a profit are trying to make money, which is inherently greedy. News at 11AM!
That's not what this company should be putting out. WOTC, you are already filthy rich. Look the mirror and realign your goal from making as much money as possible no matter what, to making the best product possible first and foremost. "
This makes no sense. The complaint is that they need to make a better product. But... the complaint isn't the produce, it's the price. If they set the MSRP at $1 or $20, it wouldn't make the product any better or worse.
In terms of overall problems, this person seems unaware of the fact that MSRP is simply Suggested Retail Price. As we saw with Modern Masters, stores are under no obligation or requirement to follow it. Complaints arise when they set the MSRP so low that stores, who know the product is worth more than that, do the reasonable thing and charge people higher amounts for it. WOTC seems to be making an effort as of late to actually set MSRP at what stores are willing to sell something for, but that also means making the MSRPs higher.
If WOTC decided to do the "non-greedy" thing and set MSRP at $3.99, no store would be selling it for that much because they know it's worth more and would be up-charging it anyway and lead to complaints. Setting the MSRP at something stores will actually sell it (or even slightly higher so some stores might charge a cheaper price) is much preferable to setting MSRP lower and having everyone charge higher prices and lead to consumer complaints (and complaints from the stores at the overly low MSRP causing consumer complaints on their end).
On the whole, the complaints espoused in the quoted text do not seem to make much sense or show much knowledge at all about how businesses and price-setting works.
Maybe you're right, and i'm too new to the game to know this. But i find kind of strange not buying packs of a set where the expected value of said pack is always greater than the cost of the pack.
And also having just 68 slots for rares and mythics requires you to rotate cards in and out on a yearly basis, which lowers the impact on prices overall
Where in heaven did you get that idea may I ask? Buying packs of cards is and will always be the antithesis of "expected value." Everything regarding buying packs is broken down by probability, expecting anything more than that is ludicrous.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I think WotC and the modern format are gonna take a pretty big hit from this fiasco. Honestly I'm to the point that I think a goyf reprint for standard is the right thing to do. Or more precisely, it would have been the right thing to do if they hadn't done two MM sets with it in. Now a standard reprint could legitimately hurt prices where as before it would have only been a temporary price blip.
It kind of strikes me that the dumbest things WotC seems to do is give the mtg community what it says it wants. They should know better than to listen to the public. Its exactly why democracy doesn't work.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I think WotC and the modern format are gonna take a pretty big hit from this fiasco. Honestly I'm to the point that I think a goyf reprint for standard is the right thing to do. Or more precisely, it would have been the right thing to do if they hadn't done two MM sets with it in. Now a standard reprint could legitimately hurt prices where as before it would have only been a temporary price blip.
It kind of strikes me that the dumbest things WotC seems to do is give the mtg community what it says it wants. They should know better than to listen to the public. Its exactly why democracy doesn't work.
Don't worry, Wizards is not going to let goyf be in the same Standard as fetchlands. And if enemy fetches get reprinted in Battle for Zendikar, then goyf won't return to Standard anytime soon.
I don't understand why Tarmogoyfhas to be reprinted in order to make the price go down. Is the price of $200 ridiculous? Yes, but MM ones can be had right now for $125 or maybe less. Goyf was around $70 at the beginning of Modern. Ask me how I know. The main thing is that Goyf is not a necessity to do well in Modern. Ask Shaun McLaren if he needed Goyfs. Ask anyone who has played Melira, Angel, and Rhino Pod (remember, it was an oppressive deck that won every big tournament) how many Goyfs they needed to be successful. The only decks that are not fringe that play Goyf are Junk Midrange, Jund Midrange, and RUG Twin or Delver. Burn, Affinity (yes, I know some horrible versions run Goyfs), Bloom Titan, Junk Company, Scapeshift, Infect, none of these and many more use Goyf.
Or is it just a feeling of entitlement? That I can see. I am currently asking for a mass reprint of Black Lotus in Standard as a Rare because I can't get back into Vintage without them. Maybe all cards should just be reprinted at "common" rarity? Or maybe we just need Tarmogoyf because there are not enough Junk Midrange mirrors right now? I guess if that's your thing, then I can empathize with that, but only very slightly...
*By the way, I know by asking this, I am stepping into something that won't stop, so I am probably preemptively not going to respond to whatever reason is made for Goyf to be reprinted at common rarity.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Did you watch the video? I think it was spot on.
Of course WotC is a company, but it is also OK to call them out for doing a cash grab. Of course companies want to make money, but usually they make it seem that the consumer is important. Here I just don't see so much space for the consumer. You can also reprint staples in other supplementary products and you can even put Tarmogoyf in Standard if there aren't fetches around. The rest you can just put in Commander, Conspiracy or whatever, instead of making a $10 dollar lottery.
Except none of that dismisses what I said.
Not counting complaints about something that wasn't really a part of the set itself (i.e. the complaint that some prices increased), there were two primary complaints about the first Modern Masters.
1) Everyone was selling it at more than MSRP (because the product was worth more than MSRP).
2) It was really hard to find booster packs (both due to the small print run and also because everyone was buying them like crazy due to the high value).
These weren't just a complaint from the consumers. It's my understanding that stores were frustrated by this also because they were the ones who were getting all the complaints as a result, and thus they were complaining to WOTC.
These problems have been fixed quite well in the new Modern Masters. Stores don't seem to be up-charging them and are charging MSRP, and there's enough to go around. Plenty of people are signing up for drafts and GP Vegas is set to set yet another record.
I do think there should've been fewer "junk rares" and having some more commons/uncommons that are worth something to make it less of a lottery, but I see no problems with the MSRP. Honestly, probably the most legitimate complaint about the set is the problematic printing/packaging.
I think WotC and the modern format are gonna take a pretty big hit from this fiasco.
The 7221 preregisters for GP Vegas and the 3200 preregisters at GP Utrecht indicate otherwise.
And how would the Modern format take a hit? Why would any Modern player decide to quit playing due to this? This set has basically no effect on the format itself outside of possibly having an effect on how easy it is to enter the format, but that shouldn't make a difference to someone already in the format. Maybe you can argue that it won't increase the format's popularity as much as it could have, but that's very different from actually taking a hit.
As a spectator (yes, I won't buy anything of this), I have to say that MM2 is one of the more entertaining sets. I haven't seen that much drama since DGM.
Here is a guy pulling 35 Rusted Relics as foil from two boxes
I am really amazed by this set. Open a pack, look at the foil, look at the rare, and trash the rest (except for perhaps Remand, Bolt and Dismember).
OMG poor guy! And luckily i didnt bought any MM2015 as of yet and prob won't be buying any.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard : What is Stand-tart
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
Konami is so much better at reprinting stuff than WotC it's not even close, in yugioh you can buy 3 of the pre-constructed deck and have something close a tier 1.5 deck for the investment of 45$. Or you can straight up buy a super viable deck for 200, the tier 0 deck are no more than 400$ most of the time, and if you speculate on them you get punished because they will reprint/ban the most expensive/powerful cards of the deck in 1 year time. I don't really like how Konami handles the game itself, but the availability of the cards is that much better than magic that you cant really talk about it
So i would do something similar for modern and have 50$ event decks with all of the really expensive cards as a 1of, so by buying 4 of them you would have a complete deck.
Yu-Gi-Oh also has an extremely volatile and unreliable secondary market because of this. Most stores I know are extremely reluctant to stock singles for Yu-Gi-Oh, because today's $40 card is a common in the next set or banned.
We don't buy yu-gi-oh collections for value for this reason. We have yu-gi-oh. But it is a very small section, and we have to look stuff up every time we make a sale. It sucks and I wish the owner would get out of it. But it makes a small profit.
Now... I think the main problem is their rampant overprinting of really good cards in pre-cons and as commons. It has entirely killed the value for foil versions.
So I think wizards really needs to address this in some way, but bumping rares down to commons is bad, unless the rares are just not that great and you need to fill out a set for draft.
However, the do need address event decks. Even decks should be playable out of the box. Contain 4 ofs, not 2 and 3 ofs. 4 ofs.
Modern Masters to me was a bit of a hit as it introduced both legacy and modern playable cards. My main gripe with it was the underprinting.
Modern Masters' Event Deck was a flop. It was an almost non-existent modern deck that looked like the innistrad tokens deck tweaked with some other token generators. I think the last block they had any good event decks was zendikar which paid its own value with the stoneforge mystic. Afterwards, all decks just plain sucked and were only worth buying for rares/promos. I still remember when they released a vampire event deck with vampire nighthawks even though almost everything in it rotated.
In modern, they have much they can use to make event decks with and whether or not the deck contains many or few rares should be irrelevant. Take Merfolks, it costs almost nothing to make (compared to other decks) and the majority of cards are rare lords that aren't (or at least weren't) worth too much. Competitive modern decks they could print out for 50$ without containing too many mythics (heck put 2 for fun and reprint 2-4 fetchlands) would be affinity, tribals (merfolk, goblin, elves, faeries, etc), dredge, storm or ad nauseam. Cheap, useable, effective.
Modern Masters 2015 is so so for me. What really pissed me off was that SCG started selling same named cards for 50-75% of the original price. So a Kozilek from RoE is 40$ but in MM2015 it's 25$. It is the exact same card, heck with an indicator to prove it isn't counterfeit. Much worse are the foil mythics (80$ vs 120$!!!!).
As stated, I am disappointed a lot of it is check the rare, check the foil, check some uncommons, dump the rest.
What really kills MM2015 is the quality control. So many screw ups! I was lucky my box was ok but I am holding onto 2 more that I want to resell later and will probably never buy the product again.
I hope MM2015 will have a good event deck as I had mentioned. It probably won't since statistics prove that if something keeps happening, it is likely to keep happening. I don't know who makes those decks in WotC anymore but they need to be replaced as they are very lazy.
Finally, on the subject of Tarmagoyf, it should be banned. The only reason this card is not rampant is its price tag on the secondary market. However, if it were a 10$ mythic, everyone playing any green would have it. There is no reason not to and it will warp the format. When a game becomes about the money you need to sink in order to get an edge over the strategies you need to think of, it is no longer fair imho and becomes an uneven playing field where the rich get an edge and anyone else has to suck on it.
Finally, on the subject of Tarmagoyf, it should be banned. The only reason this card is not rampant is its price tag on the secondary market. However, if it were a 10$ mythic, everyone playing any green would have it. There is no reason not to and it will warp the format. When a game becomes about the money you need to sink in order to get an edge over the strategies you need to think of, it is no longer fair imho and becomes an uneven playing field where the rich get an edge and anyone else has to suck on it.
Goyf should not be banned. In the grand scheme of Modern, he's entirely fair. Banning him would be like banning Lightning Bolt or Thoughtseize. And for the record, I would not run Goyf in my green deck, and that goes for many other players out there.
Finally, on the subject of Tarmagoyf, it should be banned. The only reason this card is not rampant is its price tag on the secondary market. However, if it were a 10$ mythic, everyone playing any green would have it. There is no reason not to and it will warp the format. When a game becomes about the money you need to sink in order to get an edge over the strategies you need to think of, it is no longer fair imho and becomes an uneven playing field where the rich get an edge and anyone else has to suck on it.
Oh god not this again...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UW Control
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Again, history has proven this to be wrong. Even with large sets that money could be made, people didnt buy boxes. They stuck to singles because there was too many cards to hope you rip the right ones. This is why we have the smaller sets we have today.
Edit: added this to the OP.
4 Darksteel Citadel
6 Island
6 Mountain
creatures 24
4 Vault Skirge
4 Signal Pest
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Steel Overseer
2 Etched Champion
2 Master of Etherium
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
4 Ensoul Artifact
4 Springleaf Drum
The issue with directly Goyf's price rise has been that there is only one entire reprint of the card in it's over ten year history. It is also used for Legacy and Modern, which the cards that it shares with tend to be very pricy. WotC could have and should have reprinted Goyf multiple times by now as compared to some other cards. However, they're too fearful of overpowering Standard and won't reprint certain cards like Liliana of the Veil. Which basically means that Standard is not a reliable source of reprints, nor are the specialty sets, nor are the Modern Masters sets.
Now what has yet to be established is whether the Modern Masters will be a biannual event, still a limited print run, and whether they going to reprint other cards. Which is fine, however Goyf not being reprinted is a large problem with the supply side and has been rather irresponsible to increase the number of players inside of Magic. Furthermore, power creep isn't a problem when the ban list can also be used. Goyf has been debated for years whether or not to be banned, and overall I feel it is bad for the format as it decreases variety with the format. Decks become "Tarmo+" versions become rather ridiculous.
If Fish is any indicator that there is a power level for tribal that hasn't been touched for years. There is no reason why Minotaurs could not be Tier 2, and there is little reason why a tier 1 soldier deck could not exist. The same with zombies. The key to the decks are strong two drops that are utility, power ups, or lords. Most zombie lords are either 3 or 4 slot, right now zombie lacks a good two drop lord. Soldiers do not have access to a powerful lord at two drop. Knights do not have a powerful lord at two drop, and lack a good one drop. Humans could be a contender, but again lack the capacity for a definable lord for two drop. Simply stated these would not break standard, and are not out of the realm for the decks. I feel that overall Tribal is a failing area that could use some concentrated love with a long term view, but they would also have to get comfortable with printing more tribal lords than they do now. Which, quite frankly, shoving some of the less desirable rares out the door might be a boon to many fans of specific creature types and help to diversify tier 1.
With that said, there is a lot of design space left for two drops such as Young Pyromancer that can help to support already existing deck types but also help over time to breed new ones. There is also pushing specific mechanics slightly harder over the years to allow space to build decks around them. To this WotC's fear of overpowering standard since the failure of affinity is apparent. Yet, that is the failure of free spells rather than exploring design space such as with Prowess or Delve that have both proven to be game changers for Modern without making Standard untenable.
Goyf is both a design problem that could be solved without devastating results, but also with a hard ban. They format is healthy, but could probably use to have cards specifically designed for it rather than relying on Standard to cough something up. A "core set" of some sort, rather than just a Modern Masters or some sort of way to make it an "eternal" without being "eternal" but probably too much headache.
Goyf itself is both a real problem with the format, but also a poster defining child of a larger issue that diversity for the sake of diversity is bad. That you need both strength and diversity to increase an interesting dynamic. But this also means the creation of new deck variants, which is something that is hard to do within the current design philosophy.
Modern
Commander
Cube
<a href="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-lists/588020-unpowered-themed-enchantment-an-enchanted-evening">An Enchanted Evening Cube </a>
The main issue is that there's a lot of hidden costs that quickly eat away at that expected value. Say I open a card worth $10, but it's a card I don't ever plan to play. I now have to get rid of it to get that value. If I sell it to a store or eBay it, then I lose a portion of the value in the transaction. If I try to trade it, I have to deal with all the inefficiency of finding a partner who wants it, has enough value to get it, and then actually making the transaction work. The best case scenario is finding someone who will just buy it from me for something close to its value, but that's often rare.
Because of all that, a lot of us just find it more simple and efficient to just buy singles and never buy boxes. I only ever buy a box if a) it has a lot of commons that I know I'll want; b) it has a high number of rares/uncommons that I know I want; and c) there are a high number of rares that I know will be easy to move (usually lands). As examples, the only boxes I've recently bought are Theros and Khans, which both had widely-used lands (which were desirable to have in my collection, and were easy to trade), along with a pretty high density of other desirable cards as well.
Modern: GW Hatebears/midrange, WGU Knightfall/evolution midrange stuff
Standard: nope
Legacy: W Death & Taxes
EDH (not Commander!): W Avacyn, Angel of Hope, GR Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, WGB Anafenza, the Foremost, WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator
Not every tribal deck needs to set up like merfolk. Goblins would get much better with there best two drop Goblin Piledriver. I think he is perfectly safe in modern, as nearly all of moderns removal can deal with it. Zombies need a better form of card advantage, but are set up really well to be a solid MBC list if given the right tools like Unholy Grotto, and a better Graveborn Muse. Heck, even just a solid ETB two drop zombie would much improve my casual (modern legal) Mono Black Zombie combo list. I do feel like Wizards missed out on a big tribal boon by not having Monastery Mentor make humans, to trigger Champion of the Parish. The only issue there is the poor interatcion with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, but I don't really mind. Fairies need either un bans in the form of AV or Sword of the Meek, or just the right build, I'm unsure. Vampires are also really close to having a decent aggro list, with Bump in the Night, Bolt, and a slew of one and two drops, most of which they already have.
Now back on topic....
Reprints are only good if you can pick up the singles before the influx of new players, through the singles market, which can be hard to do. Unless Wizards prints Goyf in a M16 (unlikely) he will stay expensive. Its the same with Cryptic Command, though I think a reprint would bring it's price down more, as it sees less play, and in fewer decks than Goyf. If Fairies ever found it's feet, that could easily change though.
Wizards wants to support Modern while also not crashing prices, which means reprinting relief will come slowly, with plenty of warning time for the people who have heavily invested for their own personal gain. While this does serve to somewhat stunt the growth and influx of new players, it keeps the old players around, which is just as, if not more, important. They are not only reprinting cards, but also trying to print cards that do somewhat of the same thing, just in a slightly different way. Most are misses, but a few here and there, haven't been bad. Give them time and the prices should go down as long as they stay true to the new "aggressive reprints" and bi annual MM sets. Lets just hope they don't crash the format with bans before that happens.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
You are not thinking of the cost to package the cards also. A deck like you have above would probably be a $35-$50 deck with the cards worth about $25-$40. The problem being most would already have a good chunk of the cards. Needing another $200-$400 worth of cards to make a T1 deck? At least with the BW tokens it was $75, had over $100 worth of cards at the time, and only took about $100-$150 to make it playable in the format.
I wouldnt hold your breath. I dont for see that kind of set ever coming out in paper. I wouldnt be surprised to see Modern the only 'older' format in 5 years or so, at least that sees sanctioned play.
That's also the issue, there are older players who want to enter the format or go deeper, but price barriers keep them from expanding into other deck archtypes as easily. This is why Standard is so popular, because you can build multiple decks rather easily. They're mostly scared of a repeat of Anthologies. They're conservative because of the original price crash, however there is much debate over price crash. Simply stated that some of the specific cards reprinted in Anthologies weren't able to hold their real price simply because the cards intrinsically sucked and were held aloft by low supply.
Altogether, if anyone who is in the collector's market for anything understands price fluctuations. The reserved list has created enough "blue chips," that I feel that when cards get to a certain price point they become too great. One of the original reasons for Modern was to create a place for lower price entry level points. Which probably has to do more with the original point about design for cards. Which, ironically, writing/emailing to the people who make the game to voice opinion on that is a part of market feedback. It works.
Modern
Commander
Cube
<a href="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-lists/588020-unpowered-themed-enchantment-an-enchanted-evening">An Enchanted Evening Cube </a>
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
That being said you can't be faulted for looking at the good that YuGiOh does do. Which isn't much, but it is solid.
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
That is just wrong, Konami does ban the actually oppressive cards, like they did actually two months ago with a limitation of a card called Vanity Emptyiness and banning the 4 D-Rulers. And limitation of Skill and Soul Drain. But on the topic of reprints, but at my local college, after RtR rotation 60 Card MtG died. Sense no one wanted to buy into Theros-Khans Standard, and most of us could not afford to upgrade to modern versions of our Theros-RtR standards, Cryptics and such for our Jeskai Player, Splintertwin for our Combo Player, etc.
So I rather err on the side of mass reprints if it means I can find games and not twiddle my metamorphical thumbs.
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
"I'm going to ask this again, why are these packs $10 each exactly? What determined that WOTC is going to set the prices right there? Booster packs that aren't worth their own cost is nothing new. This has long been a gamble. But $10 boosters? This creates a terrible climate. This is WOTC saying to kids, teenagers, adults to who are on a fixed or tight budget, that this product is not for them, it may even be saying that this game is not for them. I do not like this trend of making the game more and more expensive, especially if there is no reason for it beyond the fact that there are people willing to pay it. The lack of financial value in these packs can be explained away by design error. But the cost? Pure, cynical, and reckless greed. That's not what this company should be putting out. WOTC, you are already filthy rich. Look the mirror and realign your goal from making as much money as possible no matter what, to making the best product possible first and foremost. "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJV_6GsmsB8&feature=youtu.be
If people are willing to pay a higher price, companies will charge a higher price. That's how price setting works. This is basic economics. It is a little more complicated than that, to be fair, but that's the basic way it works.
Or maybe they remembered the complaints about the last set never being sold by MSRP and tried to fix that.
This Just In: Companies that are dedicated to making a profit are trying to make money, which is inherently greedy. News at 11AM!
This makes no sense. The complaint is that they need to make a better product. But... the complaint isn't the produce, it's the price. If they set the MSRP at $1 or $20, it wouldn't make the product any better or worse.
In terms of overall problems, this person seems unaware of the fact that MSRP is simply Suggested Retail Price. As we saw with Modern Masters, stores are under no obligation or requirement to follow it. Complaints arise when they set the MSRP so low that stores, who know the product is worth more than that, do the reasonable thing and charge people higher amounts for it. WOTC seems to be making an effort as of late to actually set MSRP at what stores are willing to sell something for, but that also means making the MSRPs higher.
If WOTC decided to do the "non-greedy" thing and set MSRP at $3.99, no store would be selling it for that much because they know it's worth more and would be up-charging it anyway and lead to complaints. Setting the MSRP at something stores will actually sell it (or even slightly higher so some stores might charge a cheaper price) is much preferable to setting MSRP lower and having everyone charge higher prices and lead to consumer complaints (and complaints from the stores at the overly low MSRP causing consumer complaints on their end).
On the whole, the complaints espoused in the quoted text do not seem to make much sense or show much knowledge at all about how businesses and price-setting works.
Where in heaven did you get that idea may I ask? Buying packs of cards is and will always be the antithesis of "expected value." Everything regarding buying packs is broken down by probability, expecting anything more than that is ludicrous.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
It kind of strikes me that the dumbest things WotC seems to do is give the mtg community what it says it wants. They should know better than to listen to the public. Its exactly why democracy doesn't work.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Or is it just a feeling of entitlement? That I can see. I am currently asking for a mass reprint of Black Lotus in Standard as a Rare because I can't get back into Vintage without them. Maybe all cards should just be reprinted at "common" rarity? Or maybe we just need Tarmogoyf because there are not enough Junk Midrange mirrors right now? I guess if that's your thing, then I can empathize with that, but only very slightly...
*By the way, I know by asking this, I am stepping into something that won't stop, so I am probably preemptively not going to respond to whatever reason is made for Goyf to be reprinted at common rarity.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Not counting complaints about something that wasn't really a part of the set itself (i.e. the complaint that some prices increased), there were two primary complaints about the first Modern Masters.
1) Everyone was selling it at more than MSRP (because the product was worth more than MSRP).
2) It was really hard to find booster packs (both due to the small print run and also because everyone was buying them like crazy due to the high value).
These weren't just a complaint from the consumers. It's my understanding that stores were frustrated by this also because they were the ones who were getting all the complaints as a result, and thus they were complaining to WOTC.
These problems have been fixed quite well in the new Modern Masters. Stores don't seem to be up-charging them and are charging MSRP, and there's enough to go around. Plenty of people are signing up for drafts and GP Vegas is set to set yet another record.
I do think there should've been fewer "junk rares" and having some more commons/uncommons that are worth something to make it less of a lottery, but I see no problems with the MSRP. Honestly, probably the most legitimate complaint about the set is the problematic printing/packaging.
The 7221 preregisters for GP Vegas and the 3200 preregisters at GP Utrecht indicate otherwise.
And how would the Modern format take a hit? Why would any Modern player decide to quit playing due to this? This set has basically no effect on the format itself outside of possibly having an effect on how easy it is to enter the format, but that shouldn't make a difference to someone already in the format. Maybe you can argue that it won't increase the format's popularity as much as it could have, but that's very different from actually taking a hit.
OMG poor guy! And luckily i didnt bought any MM2015 as of yet and prob won't be buying any.
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
We don't buy yu-gi-oh collections for value for this reason. We have yu-gi-oh. But it is a very small section, and we have to look stuff up every time we make a sale. It sucks and I wish the owner would get out of it. But it makes a small profit.
Now... I think the main problem is their rampant overprinting of really good cards in pre-cons and as commons. It has entirely killed the value for foil versions.
So I think wizards really needs to address this in some way, but bumping rares down to commons is bad, unless the rares are just not that great and you need to fill out a set for draft.
However, the do need address event decks. Even decks should be playable out of the box. Contain 4 ofs, not 2 and 3 ofs. 4 ofs.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
Modern Masters' Event Deck was a flop. It was an almost non-existent modern deck that looked like the innistrad tokens deck tweaked with some other token generators. I think the last block they had any good event decks was zendikar which paid its own value with the stoneforge mystic. Afterwards, all decks just plain sucked and were only worth buying for rares/promos. I still remember when they released a vampire event deck with vampire nighthawks even though almost everything in it rotated.
In modern, they have much they can use to make event decks with and whether or not the deck contains many or few rares should be irrelevant. Take Merfolks, it costs almost nothing to make (compared to other decks) and the majority of cards are rare lords that aren't (or at least weren't) worth too much. Competitive modern decks they could print out for 50$ without containing too many mythics (heck put 2 for fun and reprint 2-4 fetchlands) would be affinity, tribals (merfolk, goblin, elves, faeries, etc), dredge, storm or ad nauseam. Cheap, useable, effective.
Modern Masters 2015 is so so for me. What really pissed me off was that SCG started selling same named cards for 50-75% of the original price. So a Kozilek from RoE is 40$ but in MM2015 it's 25$. It is the exact same card, heck with an indicator to prove it isn't counterfeit. Much worse are the foil mythics (80$ vs 120$!!!!).
As stated, I am disappointed a lot of it is check the rare, check the foil, check some uncommons, dump the rest.
What really kills MM2015 is the quality control. So many screw ups! I was lucky my box was ok but I am holding onto 2 more that I want to resell later and will probably never buy the product again.
I hope MM2015 will have a good event deck as I had mentioned. It probably won't since statistics prove that if something keeps happening, it is likely to keep happening. I don't know who makes those decks in WotC anymore but they need to be replaced as they are very lazy.
Finally, on the subject of Tarmagoyf, it should be banned. The only reason this card is not rampant is its price tag on the secondary market. However, if it were a 10$ mythic, everyone playing any green would have it. There is no reason not to and it will warp the format. When a game becomes about the money you need to sink in order to get an edge over the strategies you need to think of, it is no longer fair imho and becomes an uneven playing field where the rich get an edge and anyone else has to suck on it.
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
UUUMerfolksUUU
RGoblinsR
Ad Nauseam
BR 8 Racks RB
WUB Mill BUW
Legacy:
XOps! All splels! X
What I think of MaRo
Oh god not this again...