As someone who enjoys plyaing control (I mainly plays modern), I'm always saddened by the current representation of control decks in the meta game. UWR control has been declining for a while, and I personally consider more as a combo deck (although this can be argued). There are several tier 2 decks, none of them make any real impact.
It seems to me that decks such as are always getting new toys like Siege Rhino to play with, and are only going to get better with the growing card pool. Not only that, all their tools are good individually and work really well together, but none of them are so busted to be ban worthy (and I don't see pod itself getting banned because it's such a defining archetype in modern). On the other hand, when control players get new toys like treasure cruise and DTT, they actually further suppress the control decks by making Delver and combo decks better, to the point people discuss they ban worthiness (I have nothing against the pod, I actually love the deck, but this is just an comparison that comes to mind).
Of course you may or may not agree with me, but I had an idea to improve control decks without accidentally making anything else busted, and I'd like to hear you guys' opinion. Reprinting cards like counterspell is basically all us control players want, but it seems some people have strong feelings about modern not able to take those reprints, so what about the following.
EDIT: I see that I failed to explain the actual mechanic that I'm proposing, and I realized it'll have a pretty high storm level...
So here it goes again: introduce a new type of counter that are placed on players (just like poison counter), let's call it im-plyaing-control-counter now for a lack of better name. Whenever a player has a im-playing-control counter, that player cannot win, and his/her opponents cannot lose. Whenever a player has 10 or more im-iplaying-control-counter, he/she loses the game. At the beginning of that player's upkeep, remove one im-plyaing-control counter. Then print a new card like Treasure Cruise + get 5 im-playing control counter.
Of course the actual numbers may be off but it conveys the idea. My rational is that cruise becomes a lot less exciting for Delver when they now cannot win for another five turns (although one mana for three cards is still busted). Same goes for DTT with combo decks if it means digging all the pieces just to wait a few turns to go off.
What do you guys think about this? It is fairly complicated and I doubt Wizards will spend any energy to create cards only for control decks, but ignoring that would you be OK to play with/against this?
It's Called Platinum Angel and Blue Tron Plays it on occasion. Control's weakness in the current modern format stems from two things: Firstly, the format has been denied powerful generic countermagic--Counterspell is not legal in the format, the most versatile things we have at cmc 2 are negate, remand, mana leak, and Logic Knot. Negate is effectively useless against a large portion of the metagame, Remand is not a permanent solution and is also irrelevant late game, mana leak is irrelevant late game, and logic knot is very constraining and build-around to make relevant. The result of this is that control decks cannot have a "proactive" answer to everything--In legacy, force of will and the counter-top lock are equally valid against all strategies. In modern, control cannot effectively load up with a generic counterspell that is cheap enough to interact with turn three combo decks and also not irrelevant against fair decks.
Second weakness is the fact that the strongest Card Advantage engines in the format for control strategies are banned. Ancestral Visions and Jace the Mind Sculptor are banned in modern, despite being far too slow to be relevant against turn 3/4 combo decks. The most efficient card draw in the format, Treasure Cruise, lends itself to a tempo shell instead of an actual control shell. Midrange decks have plenty of value creatures that basically guarantee 2 for 1 exchanges on their own, while control's best ways of generating card advantage are snapcaster mage, think twice, esper charm, and cryptic command, most of which are too slow to see heavy play in the current format. If they were to unban ancestral visions or reprint something like fact or fiction, or even straight up counterspell, we would see a rapid rise in the presence of control in the metagame. There's no maindeckable reactive spell that's equally useful against Scapeshift and Abzan Midrange or Delver that costs 2 mana or less, and that almost forms the fundamental problem. Discard is the only universal answer available at a reasonable cost in modern, and that type of strategy naturally lends itself to a proactive and aggressive midrange strategy as versus a long-game control strategy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
No it's the opposite of what I'm proposing. Basically I'm asking what if we get a new set of good counter magic/draw spells/other control spells which give your opponent a for a couple of turns as a draw back, so it wouldn't benefit a tempo shell more than a control shell (although one might argue treasure cruise was never meant for control decks..). And maybe if you play too many of those spells you lose the game automatically, so those who hate control decks feel better.
I'm all for reprinting counterspell and and what not, but as far as I can tell every time this is brought up there are always concerns about them being overpowered. Basically I'm thinking if there is a way print good control cards with reasonable draw back which doesn't accidentally control a worse meta game choice.
I have no idea what you're trying to say, could you try to explain what the cards specific mechanics are? Preferably in a card format
I see that I failed to explain the actual mechanic that I'm proposing, and I realized it'll have a pretty high storm level...
So here it goes again (I also updated the OP):
Introduce a new type of counter that are placed on players (just like poison counter), let's call it im-plyaing-control-counter now for a lack of better name. Whenever a player has a im-playing-control counter, that player cannot win, and his/her opponents cannot lose. Whenever a player has 10 or more im-iplaying-control-counter, he/she loses the game. At the beginning of that player's upkeep, remove one im-plyaing-control counter. Then print a new card like Treasure Cruise + get 5 im-playing control counter.
Of course the actual numbers may be off but it conveys the idea.
That mechanic is way too busted as is impossible to interact with outside of counters and makes it so that a control player can just cut a whole lot of removal and just focus on drawing cards and placing counters. This would lead to some pretty boring games.
There's also a thread for cards we want to see printed here.
That mechanic is way too busted as is impossible to interact with outside of counters and makes it so that a control player can just cut a whole lot of removal and just focus on drawing cards and placing counters. This would lead to some pretty boring games.
There's also a thread for cards we want to see printed here.
Reprinting old cards in Modern is also a seperate thread yet there is talk of reprinting Counterspell. Same goes with the previous post, it is relevant to the topic in the OP.
Safer quicker AncestralU Enchantment
~ enters the battlefield with two charge counters on it.
At the start of your upkeep, remove a charge counter on ~ and draw a card.
When there are no charge counters on ~, sacrifice it.
It only draws a total of two cards, over the next two turns, so favors longer games, and doesn't draw anything immediately, so it perhaps isn't as good for tempo as it is for control, it's basically like a really slow undercosted divination that can potentially be destroyed if an opponent has enchantment hate, although probably isn't worth it to do so most of the time.
Safer quicker AncestralU Enchantment
~ enters the battlefield with two charge counters on it.
At the start of your upkeep, remove a charge counter on ~ and draw a card.
When there are no charge counters on ~, sacrifice it.
It only draws a total of two cards, over the next two turns, so favors longer games, and doesn't draw anything immediately, so it perhaps isn't as good for tempo as it is for control, it's basically like a really slow undercosted divination that can potentially be destroyed if an opponent has enchantment hate, although probably isn't worth it to do so most of the time.
And thus proliferate control is born.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Safer quicker AncestralU Enchantment
~ enters the battlefield with two charge counters on it.
At the start of your upkeep, remove a charge counter on ~ and draw a card.
When there are no charge counters on ~, sacrifice it.
It only draws a total of two cards, over the next two turns, so favors longer games, and doesn't draw anything immediately, so it perhaps isn't as good for tempo as it is for control, it's basically like a really slow undercosted divination that can potentially be destroyed if an opponent has enchantment hate, although probably isn't worth it to do so most of the time.
That mechanic is way too busted as is impossible to interact with outside of counters and makes it so that a control player can just cut a whole lot of removal and just focus on drawing cards and placing counters. This would lead to some pretty boring games.
There's also a thread for cards we want to see printed here.
That's why these counters also act like poison counters in that you lose if you have too many of them.
Thanks for pointing out that thread, for some reason I thought it was for reprints.
Here's an idea to make control decks better without printing Counterspell.
Reverse Disdainful Stroke 1U
Instant
Counter target spell with CMC 3 or less.
This would be great and would solve a lot of problems. I really would be all for it. I was always anticipating a counterspell that has the same wording as Abrupt Decay and Inquisition of Kozilek but it didn't come yet. I mean they can also make it UU or UW if they don't want it to be that splashable. Again the same as Abrupt Decay.
They could also reprint Absorb and Undermine while we are at it. 3CMC counterspells are kinda lackluster too which exaggerates the problem. There is only Dissolve and Dissipate at the moment.
It seems to me that decks such as are always getting new toys like Siege Rhino to play with, and are only going to get better with the growing card pool. Not only that, all their tools are good individually and work really well together, but none of them are so busted to be ban worthy (and I don't see pod itself getting banned because it's such a defining archetype in modern). On the other hand, when control players get new toys like treasure cruise and DTT, they actually further suppress the control decks by making Delver and combo decks better, to the point people discuss they ban worthiness (I have nothing against the pod, I actually love the deck, but this is just an comparison that comes to mind).
Of course you may or may not agree with me, but I had an idea to improve control decks without accidentally making anything else busted, and I'd like to hear you guys' opinion. Reprinting cards like counterspell is basically all us control players want, but it seems some people have strong feelings about modern not able to take those reprints, so what about the following.
EDIT: I see that I failed to explain the actual mechanic that I'm proposing, and I realized it'll have a pretty high storm level...
So here it goes again: introduce a new type of counter that are placed on players (just like poison counter), let's call it im-plyaing-control-counter now for a lack of better name. Whenever a player has a im-playing-control counter, that player cannot win, and his/her opponents cannot lose. Whenever a player has 10 or more im-iplaying-control-counter, he/she loses the game. At the beginning of that player's upkeep, remove one im-plyaing-control counter. Then print a new card like Treasure Cruise + get 5 im-playing control counter.
Of course the actual numbers may be off but it conveys the idea. My rational is that cruise becomes a lot less exciting for Delver when they now cannot win for another five turns (although one mana for three cards is still busted). Same goes for DTT with combo decks if it means digging all the pieces just to wait a few turns to go off.
What do you guys think about this? It is fairly complicated and I doubt Wizards will spend any energy to create cards only for control decks, but ignoring that would you be OK to play with/against this?
Second weakness is the fact that the strongest Card Advantage engines in the format for control strategies are banned. Ancestral Visions and Jace the Mind Sculptor are banned in modern, despite being far too slow to be relevant against turn 3/4 combo decks. The most efficient card draw in the format, Treasure Cruise, lends itself to a tempo shell instead of an actual control shell. Midrange decks have plenty of value creatures that basically guarantee 2 for 1 exchanges on their own, while control's best ways of generating card advantage are snapcaster mage, think twice, esper charm, and cryptic command, most of which are too slow to see heavy play in the current format. If they were to unban ancestral visions or reprint something like fact or fiction, or even straight up counterspell, we would see a rapid rise in the presence of control in the metagame. There's no maindeckable reactive spell that's equally useful against Scapeshift and Abzan Midrange or Delver that costs 2 mana or less, and that almost forms the fundamental problem. Discard is the only universal answer available at a reasonable cost in modern, and that type of strategy naturally lends itself to a proactive and aggressive midrange strategy as versus a long-game control strategy.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
No it's the opposite of what I'm proposing. Basically I'm asking what if we get a new set of good counter magic/draw spells/other control spells which give your opponent a for a couple of turns as a draw back, so it wouldn't benefit a tempo shell more than a control shell (although one might argue treasure cruise was never meant for control decks..). And maybe if you play too many of those spells you lose the game automatically, so those who hate control decks feel better.
I'm all for reprinting counterspell and and what not, but as far as I can tell every time this is brought up there are always concerns about them being overpowered. Basically I'm thinking if there is a way print good control cards with reasonable draw back which doesn't accidentally control a worse meta game choice.
I see that I failed to explain the actual mechanic that I'm proposing, and I realized it'll have a pretty high storm level...
So here it goes again (I also updated the OP):
Introduce a new type of counter that are placed on players (just like poison counter), let's call it im-plyaing-control-counter now for a lack of better name. Whenever a player has a im-playing-control counter, that player cannot win, and his/her opponents cannot lose. Whenever a player has 10 or more im-iplaying-control-counter, he/she loses the game. At the beginning of that player's upkeep, remove one im-plyaing-control counter. Then print a new card like Treasure Cruise + get 5 im-playing control counter.
Of course the actual numbers may be off but it conveys the idea.
Reverse Disdainful Stroke 1U
Instant
Counter target spell with CMC 3 or less.
There's also a thread for cards we want to see printed here.
Safer quicker Ancestral U
Enchantment
~ enters the battlefield with two charge counters on it.
At the start of your upkeep, remove a charge counter on ~ and draw a card.
When there are no charge counters on ~, sacrifice it.
It only draws a total of two cards, over the next two turns, so favors longer games, and doesn't draw anything immediately, so it perhaps isn't as good for tempo as it is for control, it's basically like a really slow undercosted divination that can potentially be destroyed if an opponent has enchantment hate, although probably isn't worth it to do so most of the time.
And thus proliferate control is born.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Oops!
I think that card is actually quite spectacular. I like it mucho (:
Venser control inc.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
That's why these counters also act like poison counters in that you lose if you have too many of them.
Thanks for pointing out that thread, for some reason I thought it was for reprints.
This would be great and would solve a lot of problems. I really would be all for it. I was always anticipating a counterspell that has the same wording as Abrupt Decay and Inquisition of Kozilek but it didn't come yet. I mean they can also make it UU or UW if they don't want it to be that splashable. Again the same as Abrupt Decay.
They could also reprint Absorb and Undermine while we are at it. 3CMC counterspells are kinda lackluster too which exaggerates the problem. There is only Dissolve and Dissipate at the moment.