Price is a huge factor contributing to delver's prevalence. It's about a third of the cost to play than other T1 decks. It's overrepresented but not over-performing.
So I guess modern should only be playable if your deck costs an excess of 600 dollars? I've played and owned, in paper, scapeshift and pod simultaneously so I am familiar and with expensive decks and am willing to foot the bill. But popularity shouldn't be a reason to ban anything. That's ridiculous.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My love of lands knows no bounds.
Currently playing: GCasual 8-post R Casual Land Destruction UBRWG Legacy Dredge WGB Modern Melira Pod RUG EDH
I don't think that Delver at 16% is a problem on its own. The problem is Delver at 16% at 2 GPs in a row and Delver at 19% of the MTGO metagame. That sort of consistency does not suggest format health to me. Moreover, it doesn't matter if I personally do or do not think that Delver's prevalence is unhealthy. It matters how Wizards assesses the numbers. My fear is that these current numbers are perilously close, or already the same as, the BGx numbers a year ago. It's not that there's anything absolutely unhealthy about 16%. It's that 16% Delver is very similar to 16-20% BGx Midrange, and it's hard to not draw parallels.
the problem with this line of thought is that jund was constantly 50% of top 8s and top 16s. delver putting 1 or 2 copies into the top 8 isn't a big deal. metagame share doesn't mean too much if its not putting up good results. Jund was dominating shares and winning constantly. Storm had the second highest share on MTGO, was winning frequently, and was winning quickly.
I firmly believe this is again the result of the deck being easy to put together and easy to pilot.
I'm not equating this current situation with that of late 2012 BBE Jund. I am looking at DRS BGx Midrange in late 2013. That said, I don't think TC decks are quite as offensive as DRS decks. That little guy fit into everything, and boy was the format ugly. TC is a notch below that, but I don't know if that notch is quite below enough for the format to be considered "healthy". When BGx Midrange was causing format problems, it was about 18-20% of day 2 metagames. Delver is now 16-17% of day 2 metagames, which isn't the same but is undeniably close.
Also, remember that the issue isn't just URx Delver, just as it wasn't just BGx Midrange. It's TC as a card, like it was DRS as a card. I have no clue what the cutoff is for a format being unhealthy, but I notice many similarities between that situation and the one we are in now. Is it quite as bad? No way. Is it in the same realm? Maybe, maybe not.
Anyone wanna give mea rundown recap since im at work?
Play TC
Play Dig
Play Rhino
Jeskai Ascendancy T8ed (1 UWR/CFB, 1 4C/Fatestitcher). They're calling the 4C/Fatestitcher version "1.5" and UWR/CFB "2.0" now.
Bloom Titan T8ed (like a lot of the non-TC, non-Dig decks, it can gain life to beat aggro. Tutor Radiant Fountain + Khalni Garden to chump block). Amazingly it was 1st place after 15 rounds.
Domain Zoo T16ed.
There's a way to critically assess the format without doomsaying. It's unfortunate that when people are critical of the format that this is often instantly branded as doomsaying. Not always, but this is definitely a forum and format-wide trend. To be sure, there is definitely a way to criticize the format that is doomsaying. But there is also a way to do it without giving into hyperbole and exaggeration. That is, at least, where I am now.
It is funny that a few months ago people were complaining about how Birthing Pod was unplayable thanks to UR Delver. Didn't even Sam Pardee get in on that?
It is funny that a few months ago people were complaining about how Birthing Pod was unplayable thanks to UR Delver. Didn't even Sam Pardee get in on that?
That was probably before people noticed how powerful Siege Rhino was.
I agree with some of the other posts, looking in the past with things like when burn was getting popular, I'm sure a big reason was the fact that it was a decent deck that was cheaper than most to put together, this made it a good choice for a lot of people. We shouldn't be talking about banning TC so casually when there are most likely a lot of issues at work here, if a lot of the other main stay staples of the format were even remotely as affordable as it was to put together a UR Delver deck would the current % layout even look the same? I doubt it. Right now I think what most people need to be taking from this, as well as the burn meta situation that happened a little while ago, is that cost is a big factor for deciding the metagame, I don't like it any more than the next guy, but it just goes to show how important it is for the health and diversity of the format that staples get reprinted. Just my 2 cents anyways.
There's a way to critically assess the format without doomsaying. It's unfortunate that when people are critical of the format that this is often instantly branded as doomsaying. Not always, but this is definitely a forum and format-wide trend. To be sure, there is definitely a way to criticize the format that is doomsaying. But there is also a way to do it without giving into hyperbole and exaggeration. That is, at least, where I am now.
You say that, but from where I'm standing it smacks a tad too strongly of "we gotta ban good cards for the crime of being good."
But what do I know, I was one of those people nonplussed by the DRS ban.
Delver is popular because it is cheap and "new" (swiftspear, TC, a lot of talking about the power of the cards, etc...)
Maybe when people realize that is not so powerfull it will go down.
It's a little early to worry.
How long is long enough? Its been going on since KTK was released.
Quote from Lord Seth »
It is funny that a few months ago people were complaining about how Birthing Pod was unplayable thanks to UR Delver. Didn't even Sam Pardee get in on that?
It was also before Rhino was even considered playable in Modern. Since Rhino came to light, its narrowed the builds but made them more probable.
Quote from Godec »
From Wizards' perspective that must be great, Khans shook up Modern in a way it hasn't been since it started. Also, Domain Zoo is hotness.
Meh, you are looking at high level events and saying that. Do you have a local scene to base anything on? Looking only at high level events skews the perception of the meta and the format as a whole.
Delver is popular because it is cheap and "new" (swiftspear, TC, a lot of talking about the power of the cards, etc...)
Maybe when people realize that is not so powerfull it will go down.
It's a little early to worry.
How long is long enough? Its been going on since KTK was released.
Quote from Lord Seth »
It is funny that a few months ago people were complaining about how Birthing Pod was unplayable thanks to UR Delver. Didn't even Sam Pardee get in on that?
It was also before Rhino was even considered playable in Modern. Since Rhino came to light, its narrowed the builds but made them more probable.
Quote from Godec »
From Wizards' perspective that must be great, Khans shook up Modern in a way it hasn't been since it started. Also, Domain Zoo is hotness.
Meh, you are looking at high level events and saying that. Do you have a local scene to base anything on? Looking only at high level events skews the perception of the meta and the format as a whole.
Local scene is fine, then again, it's probably the best place to play Legacy anywhere so Modern gets a lot of the same players. The format has changed a lot because of Wizards' latest set, it's hard to say that's bad from the company's perspective.
I participated in the small RG Tron minority, coming rather close to qualifying for day 2 thanks to a good fit between my card choices and my opponents (very good: All is Dust, the almost interchangeable Pyroclasm, and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre; overrated by opponents: Oblivion Stone; almost useless: Relic of Progenitus, Nature's Claim, the second Ghost Quarter which I usually swapped out for game 2).
My observations:
Delver was just popular, not considered better than the rest. Conservative players were excited at the thought of taking a solid tier 1 deck and adding Treasure Cruise, which is certainly easier than finding something new.
RG Tron and Affinity were underrepresented, possibly below people's expectations, and mostly treated as wandering monsters rather than as matchups to prepare against.
Some strange and tier 2 decks have been killed off in day 1. A friend encountered burn without white, while I personally beat two UWR not-enough-control decks of the sort that has been discussed earlier in the thread.
Luck is extremely important; many decks simply need to draw the right card every turn to keep pace, without healthy interaction with the opponent. Even removal (e.g. early Tarmogoyf vs Pyroclasm) becomes a tempo issue (after the battlefield is cleared, what will land first, enough damage from another Tarmogoyf or a fatal Expedition Map?). I had both good and bad luck in my tournament, in equally excessive and unpleasant ways.
that affinity that makes top8 makes me say something between "wow" and "what"?
why the scales of chiss-goria when there is a card that's exactly the same, but gives your creature +1/0 instead of 0/+1?
i can't really understand
Because the damage dealt is always enough in affinity while the problem are removals.
Affinity loses not because raced but because destroyed, with +0/+1 you save your creatures from many removals popular right that rely on damage.
The same reason why Etched Champion is good in a given meta.
- L
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
I believe that in addition to Delver being a fairly "inexpensive way" into the format is the fact that Legacy players who have played Delver in Legacy (RUG, UWR, or BUG) can easily play Modern and play a similar style of play. Also the UR Delver list in Modern is nearly close enough to the Legacy version to consider the Modern version "a bit too strong" for Modern. UR Delver being a Tier 1 deck in Modern simply attracts Legacy players to at least try Modern.
The reason that Siege Rhino is so good against Delver is for several reasons. Obstinate Baloth itself can be quite a problem for Delver (other than Remand), so Siege Rhino is like an Obstinate Baloth on steroids and if you can support the colors of Rhino, there's absolutely 0 reason to play Baloth. I play RG Trap, so I can't support Rhino, but if I could, you bet I'd plop him in.
I personally think that the format is healthy. I didn't mind it before and I don't mind it now. At first, the change in the metagame was a bit tough to figure out, but I think you just have to adapt.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I disagree that the legacy and modern UR lists are "nearly close enough." when you look at the spells, you're missing brainstorm, ponder, force of will, and daze (not to mention hydroblast/pyroblast). the sheer amount of impact and change in play style having access to those cards gives you makes it basically a different deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
I disagree that the legacy and modern UR lists are "nearly close enough." when you look at the spells, you're missing brainstorm, ponder, force of will, and daze (not to mention hydroblast/pyroblast). the sheer amount of impact and change in play style having access to those cards gives you makes it basically a different deck.
While many cards are diverse the style of play is not actually.
Maybe you tends to play more conservative in modern without the free counter but their absence is compensated by the lower lever of power of the other deck in the format, so not a big deal.
- L
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Dunno about you guys, but I'm reasonably happy with these results. BGx is doing very well for itself in a TC format, delver presence is significant while not being overbearing, there is room form combo as well as pretty much anything else provided you have at least some good relevant matchups. JA might be a bit of a bore to watch combo off but then again there are people who feel the same way about Storm. Regardless, being boring is not a ban worthy offense but it would be good to keep an eye on it in case it becomes overly time-consuming.
Long story short, the format is in a very good place right now and I'm exited to play it in the coming months.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I disagree that the legacy and modern UR lists are "nearly close enough." when you look at the spells, you're missing brainstorm, ponder, force of will, and daze (not to mention hydroblast/pyroblast). the sheer amount of impact and change in play style having access to those cards gives you makes it basically a different deck.
UR Delver in both formats has benefited greatly by being very proactive and Monastery Swiftspear/Treasure Cruise reward you for this. I think it basically comes down to aggroing someone out, finishing with burn, and having a little bit of disruption (like a single Force of Will or a single Remand) in a game. I admit that I haven't played UR Delver in Legacy yet, only having played RUG Delver years ago, but it seems like this strategy is similar enough to lure Legacy players to try a Modern tournament if there is no Legacy event around. (I know it's much more luring than getting a Legacy player to play Bogles, Amulet, or Pod/Twin.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
oh, i'm not saying the deck won't lure legacy players, but the deck is pretty different between the formats. it still boils down to aggro them down ASAP.
and yeah, i'm happy with how the format is now. it was about time something shook up the format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
Another GP and no control. Can we get Jace or Counterspell yet?
How many times do we need to go over this. The issue with Jace isn't his power level. Its that they want modern to be accessible to newer players(see MM 2015 and KTK fetches), and if he is legal he is a 100+ dollar card. If he ever comes back to modern itll be coincided with a return to standard (not likely ever)
So I guess modern should only be playable if your deck costs an excess of 600 dollars? I've played and owned, in paper, scapeshift and pod simultaneously so I am familiar and with expensive decks and am willing to foot the bill. But popularity shouldn't be a reason to ban anything. That's ridiculous.
Currently playing:
GCasual 8-post
R Casual Land Destruction
UBRWG Legacy Dredge
WGB Modern Melira Pod
RUG EDH
I'm not equating this current situation with that of late 2012 BBE Jund. I am looking at DRS BGx Midrange in late 2013. That said, I don't think TC decks are quite as offensive as DRS decks. That little guy fit into everything, and boy was the format ugly. TC is a notch below that, but I don't know if that notch is quite below enough for the format to be considered "healthy". When BGx Midrange was causing format problems, it was about 18-20% of day 2 metagames. Delver is now 16-17% of day 2 metagames, which isn't the same but is undeniably close.
Also, remember that the issue isn't just URx Delver, just as it wasn't just BGx Midrange. It's TC as a card, like it was DRS as a card. I have no clue what the cutoff is for a format being unhealthy, but I notice many similarities between that situation and the one we are in now. Is it quite as bad? No way. Is it in the same realm? Maybe, maybe not.
Play TC
Play Dig
Play Rhino
Jeskai Ascendancy T8ed (1 UWR/CFB, 1 4C/Fatestitcher). They're calling the 4C/Fatestitcher version "1.5" and UWR/CFB "2.0" now.
Bloom Titan T8ed (like a lot of the non-TC, non-Dig decks, it can gain life to beat aggro. Tutor Radiant Fountain + Khalni Garden to chump block). Amazingly it was 1st place after 15 rounds.
Domain Zoo T16ed.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
There's a way to critically assess the format without doomsaying. It's unfortunate that when people are critical of the format that this is often instantly branded as doomsaying. Not always, but this is definitely a forum and format-wide trend. To be sure, there is definitely a way to criticize the format that is doomsaying. But there is also a way to do it without giving into hyperbole and exaggeration. That is, at least, where I am now.
That was probably before people noticed how powerful Siege Rhino was.
You say that, but from where I'm standing it smacks a tad too strongly of "we gotta ban good cards for the crime of being good."
But what do I know, I was one of those people nonplussed by the DRS ban.
How long is long enough? Its been going on since KTK was released.
It was also before Rhino was even considered playable in Modern. Since Rhino came to light, its narrowed the builds but made them more probable.
Meh, you are looking at high level events and saying that. Do you have a local scene to base anything on? Looking only at high level events skews the perception of the meta and the format as a whole.
Was this a control list or tempo?
Local scene is fine, then again, it's probably the best place to play Legacy anywhere so Modern gets a lot of the same players. The format has changed a lot because of Wizards' latest set, it's hard to say that's bad from the company's perspective.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
My observations:
Because the damage dealt is always enough in affinity while the problem are removals.
Affinity loses not because raced but because destroyed, with +0/+1 you save your creatures from many removals popular right that rely on damage.
The same reason why Etched Champion is good in a given meta.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
The reason that Siege Rhino is so good against Delver is for several reasons. Obstinate Baloth itself can be quite a problem for Delver (other than Remand), so Siege Rhino is like an Obstinate Baloth on steroids and if you can support the colors of Rhino, there's absolutely 0 reason to play Baloth. I play RG Trap, so I can't support Rhino, but if I could, you bet I'd plop him in.
I personally think that the format is healthy. I didn't mind it before and I don't mind it now. At first, the change in the metagame was a bit tough to figure out, but I think you just have to adapt.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)While many cards are diverse the style of play is not actually.
Maybe you tends to play more conservative in modern without the free counter but their absence is compensated by the lower lever of power of the other deck in the format, so not a big deal.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Long story short, the format is in a very good place right now and I'm exited to play it in the coming months.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
UR Delver in both formats has benefited greatly by being very proactive and Monastery Swiftspear/Treasure Cruise reward you for this. I think it basically comes down to aggroing someone out, finishing with burn, and having a little bit of disruption (like a single Force of Will or a single Remand) in a game. I admit that I haven't played UR Delver in Legacy yet, only having played RUG Delver years ago, but it seems like this strategy is similar enough to lure Legacy players to try a Modern tournament if there is no Legacy event around. (I know it's much more luring than getting a Legacy player to play Bogles, Amulet, or Pod/Twin.)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)and yeah, i'm happy with how the format is now. it was about time something shook up the format.
How many times do we need to go over this. The issue with Jace isn't his power level. Its that they want modern to be accessible to newer players(see MM 2015 and KTK fetches), and if he is legal he is a 100+ dollar card. If he ever comes back to modern itll be coincided with a return to standard (not likely ever)