Now lets get it out right away. I do know that Scapeshift and Twin are not control decks in the traditional sense but they can and do play a very controlling game. They have removal, counterspells and cantrips/card draw and selection like Dig Through Time for example. I have read an article from LSV in which he said that if he would play a controlly blue deck it would be Twin and I think Patrick Dickmann also said that the deck is leaning towards the control side of things.
And considering I have seen people claiming that UWR is not really control deck either, we can safely say that not all people have the same definition about what a control deck is.
In my definition it is a deck that tries to disrupt the enemies game plan and keep itself alive until it reaches the "turning point" where it takes over and then wins the game.
Now that definitely fits Twin, Scapeshift and UWR. Now the big difference and the reason why I ask this question is that once Scapeshift and Twin reach the "turning point" the game is over instantly.
They pay four mana for Scapeshift/Splinter Twin and that's it. UWR on the other hand pays five mana just to activate a Celestial Colonnade and attack for four damage and fumbles around with a bunch of burn spells and Snapcaster Mages.
It can be argued that Scapeshift/Twin have a more powerful late game then UWR since their wincon work no matter the board state and life totals(Scapeshift has limtis in that regard though).
I have interest in Twin and Scapeshift since Im just a control player at heart and so Im interested if you think that they are superior to UWR in being a controlling blue deck.
The metagame percentages are already speaking a clear language but I want to hear your personal opinions.
In regards to the "the game is over instantly" part, to be fair, WUR Control does have the Kiki-Jiki combo. Granted that's not as commonly used in WUR Control as Splinter Twin is in Twin or Scapeshift is in Spaceshift.
You can play cards like Geist of Saint traft as well in UWR control to kill faster, especially against decks like scapeshift or twin that can't kill it.
But yes those other decks are better at the moment. When Wrath is good, UWR is at its best. So if jund or pod come back more so will UWR.
In my head, twin (unless we talk about tarmo verisons) are tempo. They off put the opponent long enough to win. They genrally (gennerally, there are blue moon like longer verisons that are more control and use the god of storms) aim to disrupt, not completely stop, the oppoent, until they can win, either with beats and burn or combo.
Now scapeshift, thats a ramp control deck with a combo win con. Its a weird blend. But its not like storm, using the whole deck as an engine to winning, its willing to Slow its roll. Ramp early game, control the mid, then combo in the late. But it only combos late when its safe, like a control deck, it plays conservitively. Its willing to say "no" and its combo is only a means to an end.
I think honestly you need to define "what is a control deck" but be willing to understand decks in modern are rarely a single archtype. A "pure modern control deck" would be things like blue moon, where they dont say "not yet. (Like tempo, think remand, vapor snag)" They say no like cryptic command and blood moon. Also ones that use the god of storms are even closer to what control is. "Ive controled the game, ive dropped my bomb. It will kill you. While your struggle, i will keep saying no."
In regards to the "the game is over instantly" part, to be fair, WUR Control does have the Kiki-Jiki combo. Granted that's not as commonly used in WUR Control as Splinter Twin is in Twin or Scapeshift is in Spaceshift.
True but that hasn't seen widespread use. There can be made arguments that you are just a worse version of Twin if you go down that route. That's not my personal opinion but I have seen other people saying it.
You can play cards like Geist of Saint traft as well in UWR control to kill faster, especially against decks like scapeshift or twin that can't kill it.
But yes those other decks are better at the moment. When Wrath is good, UWR is at its best. So if jund or pod come back more so will UWR.
That's a bit funny considering how every Delver deck runs 4 Young Pyromancer on top of all their other stuff. You would think that wraths would be good. Especially uncounterable ones like Supreme Verdict.
In my head, twin (unless we talk about tarmo verisons) are tempo. They off put the opponent long enough to win. They genrally (gennerally, there are blue moon like longer verisons that are more control and use the god of storms) aim to disrupt, not completely stop, the oppoent, until they can win, either with beats and burn or combo.
Now scapeshift, thats a ramp control deck with a combo win con. Its a weird blend. But its not like storm, using the whole deck as an engine to winning, its willing to Slow its roll. Ramp early game, control the mid, then combo in the late. But it only combos late when its safe, like a control deck, it plays conservitively. Its willing to say "no" and its combo is only a means to an end.
I think honestly you need to define "what is a control deck" but be willing to understand decks in modern are rarely a single archtype. A "pure modern control deck" would be things like blue moon, where they dont say "not yet. (Like tempo, think remand, vapor snag)" They say no like cryptic command and blood moon. Also ones that use the god of storms are even closer to what control is. "Ive controled the game, ive dropped my bomb. It will kill you. While your struggle, i will keep saying no."
I can see it your argument for calling Twin tempo. I mean it surely isn't called Tempo Twin for nothing, right?
It can play pretty controlling though only going for the combo if it absolutely has to or the opponent is out of resources.
And you see that's why I put control into quotes and used the term controlling decks latter. There are people who say that UWR is not a real control deck. We can say that Modern doesn't have a true and pure control deck like Esper Control in Standard was for example. That's just the way it is.
UWR Control is kinda weird when you think about it. It has been there for a such long time but yet it never got that kind of prominence and numbers like the other big decks like Pod, Affinity, BG/x, Twin, etc. It's always there but never at the really top tier.
That's why I find this question about Twin and Scapeshift so interesting. They use control tools and make it part of their own awesome and successful package.
LSV advised in one of his Wizards articles that everybody who is interested in a controlling blue deck should choose Twin over UWR since the combo finish is just that good and gives the deck a strong late-game. Why attack for 4 a turn when you can just instantly win the game? And it's not like Twin is playing a lot of bad cards either to make that work.
I don't know that much about Tarmo Twin but from my tests with Twin/Scapeshift I found that:
1) Twin had to cut redundancy because Kiki was too slow - that makes it as soft to disruption as Scapeshift. UWR has redundancy (the burn plan + Colonnades) and more cantrips so disruption/hate is less painful.
2) While Scapeshift is arguably soft to disruption (especially Slaughter Games type of disruption), it fights that by having a lot of ramp so they generally have more resources than Twin. This means that missing land drops and land destruction (Fulminator Mage mostly) hurts Twin a lot more than it hurts Scapeshift.
Also the problem with either UWR Control or pure UW Control is that it's a type of deck that needs fine tuning for the meta. It will punish you if you are mainboarding more sweepers than necessary for instance. Both Scapeshift and Twin will punish your mistakes less.
These are of course subjective assessments so feel free to disagree.
Scapeshift is pretty much a control deck with a combo finish however Twin always felt more tempo-y to me. WUR has always been a strange beast in that it exists as so many different decks on a sliding scale between WUR Flash (Resto, Geist, Thundermaw/Stormbreath) to hard WUR control (only snaps and colonnades). Few decks are as capable as WUR control when it comes to a long game and it rewards patience more then any deck I have ever played, quite often I won't even consider attacking my opponent until I can cast every counter spell in my hand and activate colonnade, usually turn 15+.
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Turn 1 Search for Tomorrow into turn two Sakura-Tribe Elder is an incredibly potent play that sets up an absolute wall of mana that when combined with removal like Lightning Bolt and control magic like Remand, Cryptic Command, and Izzet Charm, combined with a powerful combo supported by Dig Through Time, is really hard for almost any deck to beat.
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Turn 1 Search for Tomorrow into turn two Sakura-Tribe Elder is an incredibly potent play that sets up an absolute wall of mana that when combined with removal like Lightning Bolt and control magic like Remand, Cryptic Command, and Izzet Charm, combined with a powerful combo supported by Dig Through Time, is really hard for almost any deck to beat.
I disagree. Scapeshift is just a combo deck that uses control elements to stall the game and protect it's combo. All of those ramp spells are really bad when you're taking a beating from a Tarmogoyf. Scapeshift has no life gain, no hard removal, and no plan b(what do you do when Slaughter Games names Scapeshift or when Valakut gets hit by Sowing Salt?).
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Turn 1 Search for Tomorrow into turn two Sakura-Tribe Elder is an incredibly potent play that sets up an absolute wall of mana that when combined with removal like Lightning Bolt and control magic like Remand, Cryptic Command, and Izzet Charm, combined with a powerful combo supported by Dig Through Time, is really hard for almost any deck to beat.
I disagree. Scapeshift is just a combo deck that uses control elements to stall the game and protect it's combo. All of those ramp spells are really bad when you're taking a beating from a Tarmogoyf. Scapeshift has no life gain, no hard removal, and no plan b(what do you do when Slaughter Games names Scapeshift or when Valakut gets hit by Sowing Salt?).
It's common to play some combination of Obstinate Baloth, Primeval Titan, Inferno Titan, Keranos postboard. Sowing Salt doesn't seem super good against all the counters. Slaughter Games is also not widely played (RB is not very popular right now). And you can't win against every conceivable card, there's always going to be something that beats you. You have to consider what the meta is.
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Turn 1 Search for Tomorrow into turn two Sakura-Tribe Elder is an incredibly potent play that sets up an absolute wall of mana that when combined with removal like Lightning Bolt and control magic like Remand, Cryptic Command, and Izzet Charm, combined with a powerful combo supported by Dig Through Time, is really hard for almost any deck to beat.
I disagree. Scapeshift is just a combo deck that uses control elements to stall the game and protect it's combo. All of those ramp spells are really bad when you're taking a beating from a Tarmogoyf. Scapeshift has no life gain, no hard removal, and no plan b(what do you do when Slaughter Games names Scapeshift or when Valakut gets hit by Sowing Salt?).
It's common to play some combination of Obstinate Baloth, Primeval Titan, Inferno Titan, Keranos postboard. Sowing Salt doesn't seem super good against all the counters. Slaughter Games is also not widely played (RB is not very popular right now). And you can't win against every conceivable card, there's always going to be something that beats you. You have to consider what the meta is.
A lot of decks in Modern have nearly unwinnable odds against the Tier 1 regulars. Scapeshift isn't even particularly weak to to Affinity, especially post board. Zoo gives the deck some trouble, but post board with sweepers and life gain even that is even at worst.
Now it's definitely an interesting question if Scapeshift is a combo deck with control elements or a control deck with a combo finish.
I don't think it really matters though in the end. Surviving until it takes over the game is all what control is about. You can say the same about Scapeshift. Survive until you can finish the game.
The fact that the combo is not a "traditional" one and just consists of you casting Scapeshift with enough lands in play certainly helps with that.
Trying to prolong the control game for too long isn't a viable strategy in Modern when aggressive decks can refill their hand with Treasure Cruise, there is so much combo and Emrakul is present in the format, so having a combo kill helps a lot. Due to the nature of the decks, both Scapeshift and Twin make a better use of the new best card of the format, Dig Through Time, than UWR Control.
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Who is truer: you who are, or you who are to be?
Currently sleeved: WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
What do you think about a pair of crucible of worlds in the sb for metagames where there are tons of land destruction?
And if dig through times gets the axe in january, do we go back to peer or telling time maybe? I need especial help for this because im relatively new to scapeshift and im buying this deck on paper(i already have started)
What do you think about a pair of crucible of worlds in the sb for metagames where there are tons of land destruction?
And if dig through times gets the axe in january, do we go back to peer or telling time maybe? I need especial help for this because im relatively new to scapeshift and im buying this deck on paper(i already have started)
I seriously can't believe people are talking about banning Dig Through Time.
As a Twin player, it hurts to say this, but Scapeshift. Scapeshift has always been a powerful deck and has a lot of game versus the format as a whole. Twin is still good, don't get me wrong, but I'd say that Scapeshift is better positioned right now.
Where does the UWR Ascendency deck fit into this? I know it's not really 'control', but it sort of fits into the Splinter Twin side of things, albeit as an engine combo rather than just a straight 2 card combo.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
As a Twin player, it hurts to say this, but Scapeshift. Scapeshift has always been a powerful deck and has a lot of game versus the format as a whole. Twin is still good, don't get me wrong, but I'd say that Scapeshift is better positioned right now.
Twin can be adjusted quite a bit. We have a lot of flex with our list. 4x Exarch is really good right now. UWR Twin allows you to run Helix and Village Bell Ringer for another 4 toughness critter. RUG Twin is pretty strong with Goyfs and Huntmasters applying pressure to Delver/Burn, with some tricky SB Tech (Feed the clan is hilarious).
The one big advantage to Twin over Scapeshift is that we can do infinite damage against Boggles and Soul Sisters (and against whacks from a Wurmcoil or something).
That said, Scapeshift is essentially a one card combo, and typically easier (though not as fast) to ensure than Twin.
Testing scapeshift i noticed that there is a big problem with cantrips and the Main deck removal. Since i bought this on paper its really alarming to get mana flood or something like that. Do you think Courser is good in scapeshift? It should be, at least in an aggro meta, dont know much how he does against combo or control or combo/control
Thoughts?
So I thought it would be fine to take this thread out again. I thought that UWR Control would at least pick up a bit of steam with the bannings but it looks like that is not the case according to the recent data. UWR is not even in the top 10 on paper.
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Here's a quick metagame update:
MTGO Metagame: Top 10 decks Total events: 5
Total decks: 106
(01/28/2015 - 02/09/2015)
The latest SCG IQ also had no copies of UWR Control but to be fair besides Affinity there were no decks that are considered top tier in it so that should be taken with a grain of salt.
We had a few threads talking about the state of control in Modern already but the fact that UWR still fails to show up while Twin and Scapeshift are back in action or never left in Scapeshifts case should add more fuel to the fire.
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Modern: UW Control
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And considering I have seen people claiming that UWR is not really control deck either, we can safely say that not all people have the same definition about what a control deck is.
In my definition it is a deck that tries to disrupt the enemies game plan and keep itself alive until it reaches the "turning point" where it takes over and then wins the game.
Now that definitely fits Twin, Scapeshift and UWR. Now the big difference and the reason why I ask this question is that once Scapeshift and Twin reach the "turning point" the game is over instantly.
They pay four mana for Scapeshift/Splinter Twin and that's it. UWR on the other hand pays five mana just to activate a Celestial Colonnade and attack for four damage and fumbles around with a bunch of burn spells and Snapcaster Mages.
It can be argued that Scapeshift/Twin have a more powerful late game then UWR since their wincon work no matter the board state and life totals(Scapeshift has limtis in that regard though).
I have interest in Twin and Scapeshift since Im just a control player at heart and so Im interested if you think that they are superior to UWR in being a controlling blue deck.
The metagame percentages are already speaking a clear language but I want to hear your personal opinions.
But yes those other decks are better at the moment. When Wrath is good, UWR is at its best. So if jund or pod come back more so will UWR.
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Now scapeshift, thats a ramp control deck with a combo win con. Its a weird blend. But its not like storm, using the whole deck as an engine to winning, its willing to Slow its roll. Ramp early game, control the mid, then combo in the late. But it only combos late when its safe, like a control deck, it plays conservitively. Its willing to say "no" and its combo is only a means to an end.
I think honestly you need to define "what is a control deck" but be willing to understand decks in modern are rarely a single archtype. A "pure modern control deck" would be things like blue moon, where they dont say "not yet. (Like tempo, think remand, vapor snag)" They say no like cryptic command and blood moon. Also ones that use the god of storms are even closer to what control is. "Ive controled the game, ive dropped my bomb. It will kill you. While your struggle, i will keep saying no."
True but that hasn't seen widespread use. There can be made arguments that you are just a worse version of Twin if you go down that route. That's not my personal opinion but I have seen other people saying it.
That's a bit funny considering how every Delver deck runs 4 Young Pyromancer on top of all their other stuff. You would think that wraths would be good. Especially uncounterable ones like Supreme Verdict.
You may be right about this. It's definitely a deck to look out for.
I can see it your argument for calling Twin tempo. I mean it surely isn't called Tempo Twin for nothing, right?
It can play pretty controlling though only going for the combo if it absolutely has to or the opponent is out of resources.
And you see that's why I put control into quotes and used the term controlling decks latter. There are people who say that UWR is not a real control deck. We can say that Modern doesn't have a true and pure control deck like Esper Control in Standard was for example. That's just the way it is.
UWR Control is kinda weird when you think about it. It has been there for a such long time but yet it never got that kind of prominence and numbers like the other big decks like Pod, Affinity, BG/x, Twin, etc. It's always there but never at the really top tier.
That's why I find this question about Twin and Scapeshift so interesting. They use control tools and make it part of their own awesome and successful package.
LSV advised in one of his Wizards articles that everybody who is interested in a controlling blue deck should choose Twin over UWR since the combo finish is just that good and gives the deck a strong late-game. Why attack for 4 a turn when you can just instantly win the game? And it's not like Twin is playing a lot of bad cards either to make that work.
1) Twin had to cut redundancy because Kiki was too slow - that makes it as soft to disruption as Scapeshift. UWR has redundancy (the burn plan + Colonnades) and more cantrips so disruption/hate is less painful.
2) While Scapeshift is arguably soft to disruption (especially Slaughter Games type of disruption), it fights that by having a lot of ramp so they generally have more resources than Twin. This means that missing land drops and land destruction (Fulminator Mage mostly) hurts Twin a lot more than it hurts Scapeshift.
Also the problem with either UWR Control or pure UW Control is that it's a type of deck that needs fine tuning for the meta. It will punish you if you are mainboarding more sweepers than necessary for instance. Both Scapeshift and Twin will punish your mistakes less.
These are of course subjective assessments so feel free to disagree.
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In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Turn 1 Search for Tomorrow into turn two Sakura-Tribe Elder is an incredibly potent play that sets up an absolute wall of mana that when combined with removal like Lightning Bolt and control magic like Remand, Cryptic Command, and Izzet Charm, combined with a powerful combo supported by Dig Through Time, is really hard for almost any deck to beat.
UW Approach UW
EDH
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
I disagree. Scapeshift is just a combo deck that uses control elements to stall the game and protect it's combo. All of those ramp spells are really bad when you're taking a beating from a Tarmogoyf. Scapeshift has no life gain, no hard removal, and no plan b(what do you do when Slaughter Games names Scapeshift or when Valakut gets hit by Sowing Salt?).
It's common to play some combination of Obstinate Baloth, Primeval Titan, Inferno Titan, Keranos postboard. Sowing Salt doesn't seem super good against all the counters. Slaughter Games is also not widely played (RB is not very popular right now). And you can't win against every conceivable card, there's always going to be something that beats you. You have to consider what the meta is.
A lot of decks in Modern have nearly unwinnable odds against the Tier 1 regulars. Scapeshift isn't even particularly weak to to Affinity, especially post board. Zoo gives the deck some trouble, but post board with sweepers and life gain even that is even at worst.
UW Approach UW
EDH
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
I don't think it really matters though in the end. Surviving until it takes over the game is all what control is about. You can say the same about Scapeshift. Survive until you can finish the game.
The fact that the combo is not a "traditional" one and just consists of you casting Scapeshift with enough lands in play certainly helps with that.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
And if dig through times gets the axe in january, do we go back to peer or telling time maybe? I need especial help for this because im relatively new to scapeshift and im buying this deck on paper(i already have started)
DDT impact on shift is comparable to the impact of TC on Delver, and thats huge.
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URW Control
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Twin can be adjusted quite a bit. We have a lot of flex with our list. 4x Exarch is really good right now. UWR Twin allows you to run Helix and Village Bell Ringer for another 4 toughness critter. RUG Twin is pretty strong with Goyfs and Huntmasters applying pressure to Delver/Burn, with some tricky SB Tech (Feed the clan is hilarious).
The one big advantage to Twin over Scapeshift is that we can do infinite damage against Boggles and Soul Sisters (and against whacks from a Wurmcoil or something).
That said, Scapeshift is essentially a one card combo, and typically easier (though not as fast) to ensure than Twin.
Thoughts?
The latest SCG IQ also had no copies of UWR Control but to be fair besides Affinity there were no decks that are considered top tier in it so that should be taken with a grain of salt.
We had a few threads talking about the state of control in Modern already but the fact that UWR still fails to show up while Twin and Scapeshift are back in action or never left in Scapeshifts case should add more fuel to the fire.