And tested a full 20 games against UR delver (just grabbed a stock list, game 1's only). The results? 17-3 in favor of black/white. Lost zero games in which a baneslayer or night of soul's betrayal/curse of death's hold resolved. Lost the games where they went delver, flip delver play pyromancer, then spam bolts and vapor snags at my face.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
On a serious note, yes, I did pack a BW Tokens deck off to Modern FNM and went 4-2, squeaking into the Top-8. Yes, everybody was running lots of Delver, RDW Burn, Treasure Cruise, and other general burn / aggro decks with red and blue, just like I expected and play-tested. Really, it wasn't so much what I played as that I was extremely well-prepared for what everybody would be running. The only slip was that I didn't see Young Pyromancer all night - maybe he's been hated out of my local meta lately, or maybe nobody drew him.
Anyway, thanks for the lively discussion here. I figured other players would also want to know good strategies against UR aggro-burn, since it's been so prominent lately.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
This signature holds priority until end of comment.
it may be snark, but the simple fact is that if they DON'T have a burn spell for it immediately, it generates actual real card advantage. Against UR delver, they really only have four bolts--other than that, it favorably trades with everything in their deck. If they DO bolt it, that's a bolt that wasn't going to your face. The point being that baneslayers, night of souls betrayal, and curse of death's hold backed up with a dozen or so slot removal spells wrecks delver, once you resolve one of those enchantments, you can beat them to death with a wet noodle. or deck them.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
...they really only have four bolts--other than that, it favorably trades with everything in their deck. If they DO bolt it, that's a bolt that wasn't going to your face.
That's the exact same line of logic I use, but I always get 20 trolls dogpiling me chanting IT DIES TO BOLT! ITS BAD! Apparently it's only OK for other people to say.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
This signature holds priority until end of comment.
"it dies to bolt" means that the creature has to be GOOD ENOUGH that, IF it doesn't get bolted, it otherwise wins the game. look at the creatures that "die to bolt" that ARE played in the format regularly:
Delver
Bob (dark confidant)
Young Pyromancer
Vendilion Clique
Snapcaster Mage
The idea is that, against straight UR delver, vampire nighthawk either trades 1 for 1 with a bolt, or you do in fact win the game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Thats cool but you literally can't ever beat a combo deck like scapeshift. Like 0% winrate. That deck is slow and runs no disruption at all. But great vs only creature decks.
I've had an incredible amount of success with Scapeshift against Delver. Pre-board I can usually counter their important stuff and get enough value out of Sakura-Tribe Elder to cast a lethal Scapeshift before they can kill me and then post-board I play enough sweepers that they tend to have problems, and resolving an Inferno Titan or a Batterskull against Delver is gg about 85% of the time, and when it isn't they're at least 2-for-1ing themselves. You could probably do well with UWR Control or even Kiki Control too. The longer the game goes the worse Delver gets. Straight UW Control also seems like a viable option.
I disagree strongly. I played UW before the onslaught fetchlands were reprinted. UW takes almost no damage from its manabase, kitchen finks and sphinx's rev do a ton to pad your life total, and oust-snapcaster-oust your own snapcaster can gain a significant chunk of life. UW plays more board wipes than esper and can more consistently (in my experience) dig for them. Finally, resto angel post board with finks creates a ton of problems for burn. UW is a great choice for a burn and delver meta.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I disagree strongly. I played UW before the onslaught fetchlands were reprinted. UW takes almost no damage from its manabase, kitchen finks and sphinx's rev do a ton to pad your life total, and oust-snapcaster-oust your own snapcaster can gain a significant chunk of life. UW plays more board wipes than esper and can more consistently (in my experience) dig for them. Finally, resto angel post board with finks creates a ton of problems for burn. UW is a great choice for a burn and delver meta.
I might not have too much to add to this discussion, but I would like to back up this user and vouch for the power of Oust in the current meta. In my case I run UW lantern control, so my Oust is often used as hard removal (oust into milling/exiling the problem card) but the ability to oust your etb creatures (normally a snappy in decks, a trinket mage in my case) and replaying them while gaining 3 life (forcing out an extra bolt, delver swing or similar) can be a swing that puts a game out of range for the current delver decks.
I experienced a game lately where I ousted my own trinket mage twice in a game, 6 life and 3 tutor effects from 3 cards is pretty decent right now.
While I appreciate the back-up, I have to say that lantern control does not impress me at all in a burn-heavy metagame that has a high-density of redundant pieces. Although I love the concept, being a lands/Armageddon stax player in legacy myself.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Don't worry, I wasn't arguing for lantern control (although my burn matchup generally depends on keeping Eidolon off the board, because I can just run away with recurred Sunbeam Spellbomb to stabilise if that bloody little enchantment creature is off the board) but I was arguing for Oust in general. It buys back snapcaster mage in normal decks, buys back trinket mage in tezzerators and treasure mage in Tron (theoretically, don't run out and sleeve up WU Tron but the theory is there, something that is being tested by a few mates), does downright unfair stuff with Thragtusk in Bant or Junk shells... The card is currently VERY underrated.
As an aside, and don't want to go too off topic, while I am not arguing for lantern control vs the current metagame with so much burn and delver (especially not jund lantern or pixy sticks variants) I personally quite enjoy the burn matchup as if you don't deal about 25 to me with your opening hand I am not too concerned, I can search pithing needle in the maindeck vs lavamancer builds, have verdict off the board vs young pyromancer, and have Sunbeam Spellbomb and Elixir of Immortality as options, on top of 3 maindeck 1 sideboard Oust, 3 maindeck Path to Exile (want to put a fourth in but struggling to find deckslots) and relic off the board and cage in the main (the main cage is to hose the multiple dredgevine decks locally, crypt or relic is normally better main for most builds) to take on snapcaster bolts (in UR delver) or bomb out the graveyard vs cruise burn. So yeah, not a deck I would recommend people sleeve up to take on a heavy burn metagame, but as a player that plays it a lot I don't worry too much about the matchup (which like I said boils down to if Eidolon of the Great Revel does silly things or if I stop it fast/prevent it outright). Running Thopter Foundry as my wincon also helps me vs burn, those little lifegain ticks are all too relevant in some games (I've even Ousted a Thopter token for the lifegain at one point when my trinket mage's were not on board and I needed the 3 life urgently).
If you had a deck that could drop that turn 1 for one on the play, I would scoop and sign and walk away.
Those talking life gain, you have to gain life early and often. Turn 3 is usually too late, mainly because the red decks are main boarding skullcrack. They can play through your life gain with ease.
If you had a deck that could drop that turn 1 for one on the play, I would scoop and sign and walk away.
Those talking life gain, you have to gain life early and often. Turn 3 is usually too late, mainly because the red decks are main boarding skullcrack. They can play through your life gain with ease.
Thats cool but you literally can't ever beat a combo deck like scapeshift. Like 0% winrate. That deck is slow and runs no disruption at all. But great vs only creature decks.
Blood Moon doesn't beat scapeshift?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
You can play whatever in the sideboard for your meta, the only important things for UR are the Bow of Nylea and Golgari Charms. Bow was killer and won every game it came down in, which is pretty frequent thanks to Dig Through Time. I'm strongly considering running two. Golgari Charm is the BG Electrickery and occasionally will hit a Blood Moon if necessary. The deck is a lot of fun and I highly recommend it if there's a lot of UR in your meta.
What always bugged me about Volcanic Fallout was the fact it hit all players. Most of the decks you'd want to use it against are trying to hit you for a bunch of damage quickly, while you can wipe their board, you take some damage in doing so.
No one mentioned probably the best deck vs delver - BOGLES. Run it with 2x spirit link, 4x daybreak coronets and 3x unflinching courage and it's GG.
Bogles definitely crushes UR Delver.
The other 3 that I can think of are Burn w/ or w/o Cruise, Soul Sisters, and probably Pod with Rhino (although I haven't tested that last one).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I play Kiki-Pod, and my solution has been to go up to 4 Kitchen Finks and 3 Voice of Resurgence in the mainboard. The two-in-one bodies help keep pace with their card draw, and Finks's lifegain is clutch. May Jace help them if you get a Pod going. Also, Thragtusk is tech from the side and keeps with the whole theme of multiple bodies from one creature.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Swamp
4 Plains
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Curse of Death's Hold
4 Doom Blade
4 Disfigure
4 Path to Exile
4 Baneslayer Angel
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Wall of Omens
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Drown in Sorrow
And tested a full 20 games against UR delver (just grabbed a stock list, game 1's only). The results? 17-3 in favor of black/white. Lost zero games in which a baneslayer or night of soul's betrayal/curse of death's hold resolved. Lost the games where they went delver, flip delver play pyromancer, then spam bolts and vapor snags at my face.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
(snark) I thought if you packed Nighthawk into your build, your deck would burst into flames all by itself or something. (/snark)
Anyway, thanks for the lively discussion here. I figured other players would also want to know good strategies against UR aggro-burn, since it's been so prominent lately.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
That's the exact same line of logic I use, but I always get 20 trolls dogpiling me chanting IT DIES TO BOLT! ITS BAD! Apparently it's only OK for other people to say.
Delver
Bob (dark confidant)
Young Pyromancer
Vendilion Clique
Snapcaster Mage
The idea is that, against straight UR delver, vampire nighthawk either trades 1 for 1 with a bolt, or you do in fact win the game.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Thats cool but you literally can't ever beat a combo deck like scapeshift. Like 0% winrate. That deck is slow and runs no disruption at all. But great vs only creature decks.
UW Approach UW
EDH
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
dont think so, you dont have good early answers for delver/pyromancer, and when you cast a sweeper you are in burn range.
probably the best 2 cards against delver (and i bet that we will see in GP madrid) are volcanic fallout and gut shot
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I might not have too much to add to this discussion, but I would like to back up this user and vouch for the power of Oust in the current meta. In my case I run UW lantern control, so my Oust is often used as hard removal (oust into milling/exiling the problem card) but the ability to oust your etb creatures (normally a snappy in decks, a trinket mage in my case) and replaying them while gaining 3 life (forcing out an extra bolt, delver swing or similar) can be a swing that puts a game out of range for the current delver decks.
I experienced a game lately where I ousted my own trinket mage twice in a game, 6 life and 3 tutor effects from 3 cards is pretty decent right now.
Edited to add card tags.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
As an aside, and don't want to go too off topic, while I am not arguing for lantern control vs the current metagame with so much burn and delver (especially not jund lantern or pixy sticks variants) I personally quite enjoy the burn matchup as if you don't deal about 25 to me with your opening hand I am not too concerned, I can search pithing needle in the maindeck vs lavamancer builds, have verdict off the board vs young pyromancer, and have Sunbeam Spellbomb and Elixir of Immortality as options, on top of 3 maindeck 1 sideboard Oust, 3 maindeck Path to Exile (want to put a fourth in but struggling to find deckslots) and relic off the board and cage in the main (the main cage is to hose the multiple dredgevine decks locally, crypt or relic is normally better main for most builds) to take on snapcaster bolts (in UR delver) or bomb out the graveyard vs cruise burn. So yeah, not a deck I would recommend people sleeve up to take on a heavy burn metagame, but as a player that plays it a lot I don't worry too much about the matchup (which like I said boils down to if Eidolon of the Great Revel does silly things or if I stop it fast/prevent it outright). Running Thopter Foundry as my wincon also helps me vs burn, those little lifegain ticks are all too relevant in some games (I've even Ousted a Thopter token for the lifegain at one point when my trinket mage's were not on board and I needed the 3 life urgently).
"Land, pitch Simian Spirit Guide, Chalise on 1. Pass turn."
Affinity can Frank Karstens article about it: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-chalice-affinity-at-gp-madrid/
Hilariously I actually won that match. Smash to Smithereens out of the board is fantastic against Chalice.
Blood Moon doesn't beat scapeshift?
2x Breeding Pool
2x Forest
2x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Watery Grave
Creature (12)
4x Delver of Secrets Flip
4x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Darkblast
4x Dig Through Time
3x Disfigure
1x Golgari Charm
4x Remand
1x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare
Sorcery (9)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Serum Visions
1x Back to Nature
1x Bow of Nylea
1x Dismember
2x Flashfreeze
2x Golgari Charm
2x Negate
3x Obstinate Baloth
1x Sultai Charm
2x Thoughtseize
You can play whatever in the sideboard for your meta, the only important things for UR are the Bow of Nylea and Golgari Charms. Bow was killer and won every game it came down in, which is pretty frequent thanks to Dig Through Time. I'm strongly considering running two. Golgari Charm is the BG Electrickery and occasionally will hit a Blood Moon if necessary. The deck is a lot of fun and I highly recommend it if there's a lot of UR in your meta.
'78 CB750F, '09 CBR600RR
volcanic fallout.
-MH
Modern
BUGLantern ControlBUG
Bogles definitely crushes UR Delver.
The other 3 that I can think of are Burn w/ or w/o Cruise, Soul Sisters, and probably Pod with Rhino (although I haven't tested that last one).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)