I can't consistently get 4 mana by turn 4 in a 20 land deck. So yes, I'll take the risk of Manris Rider being blown out by Lightning Bolt (which happens less likely than you would think, especially with Delver and Burn decks wanting to cast main-phase/in combat Bolts for Swiftspear) over the much more likely risk of not being able to play a primary threat until turn 6.
You're telling me, that with Thought scour/Serum Visions/Treasure Cruise/Gitaxian Probe/Electrolyze/EVERY OTHER CARD DRAW spell available in a Delver deck, you can't hit 4 lands? My Grixis Delver only runs 17 lands, and I can get 4 lands T4 pretty consistently (annoyingly so, honestly).
Mantis Rider is a good card, don't get me wrong. But Lightning Angel is just so much better.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
hi all.. im new to the site and wasnt sure how to go about starting a post of my own so i apologize for jumping in on this thread with something off-topic.. I just wanted to know if anyone can tell me about this Viashino Fangtail card I have (see pics i've uploaded). Is it just a print/ink error or could the effects have maybe been added on purpose by the artist? Any input would be appreciated.
You're telling me, that with Thought scour/Serum Visions/Treasure Cruise/Gitaxian Probe/Electrolyze/EVERY OTHER CARD DRAW spell available in a Delver deck, you can't hit 4 lands? My Grixis Delver only runs 17 lands, and I can get 4 lands T4 pretty consistently (annoyingly so, honestly).
Mantis Rider is a good card, don't get me wrong. But Lightning Angel is just so much better.
It's not so much "can't hit 4 lands". It's more of "if I hit 4 lands, why would I want to hold up Cryptic mana when I can Cruise and fire off two other spells?" The Treasure Cruise play lets you cast more spells in one turn, which is good for Swiftspear and Young Pyromancer, and good for your tempo as well. Instead of tapping all their blockers and drawing a card with Cryptic, you can Cruise into some combination of Vapor Snag and Bolt, removing all their blockers with cards to spare. Or just throw the Bolts at their head to finish them off.
And don't start spewing that "Fringe" crap in a thread going on about "Creatures that get no love".....
Yeah this is a thread about underplayed cards, but we still have to stick to the facts. FACT: None of the Delver decks listed on the first 3 pages of MTGTop8 plays Cryptic Command. (I checked.) That's 60 decks with 0 Cryptics. I don't know where you're getting "Delver decks still play Cryptic" from, would you like to show me?
Lightning Angel is modern legal, it was on the time spiral timeshifted sheet so there's no need for a complete reprint. If you really think it would be better than mantis rider in delver, you're free to play it yourself.
I can't consistently get 4 mana by turn 4 in a 20 land deck. So yes, I'll take the risk of Manris Rider being blown out by Lightning Bolt (which happens less likely than you would think, especially with Delver and Burn decks wanting to cast main-phase/in combat Bolts for Swiftspear) over the much more likely risk of not being able to play a primary threat until turn 6.
You're telling me, that with Thought scour/Serum Visions/Treasure Cruise/Gitaxian Probe/Electrolyze/EVERY OTHER CARD DRAW spell available in a Delver deck, you can't hit 4 lands? My Grixis Delver only runs 17 lands, and I can get 4 lands T4 pretty consistently (annoyingly so, honestly).
Mantis Rider is a good card, don't get me wrong. But Lightning Angel is just so much better.
I am just playing Visions and Dig Through Time and no I cannot. Even if I could, I still wouldn't. Angel comes down a turn later so it does 3 less damage.
Lightning Angel is modern legal, it was on the time spiral timeshifted sheet so there's no need for a complete reprint. If you really think it would be better than mantis rider in delver, you're free to play it yourself.
I can't consistently get 4 mana by turn 4 in a 20 land deck. So yes, I'll take the risk of Manris Rider being blown out by Lightning Bolt (which happens less likely than you would think, especially with Delver and Burn decks wanting to cast main-phase/in combat Bolts for Swiftspear) over the much more likely risk of not being able to play a primary threat until turn 6.
You're telling me, that with Thought scour/Serum Visions/Treasure Cruise/Gitaxian Probe/Electrolyze/EVERY OTHER CARD DRAW spell available in a Delver deck, you can't hit 4 lands? My Grixis Delver only runs 17 lands, and I can get 4 lands T4 pretty consistently (annoyingly so, honestly).
Mantis Rider is a good card, don't get me wrong. But Lightning Angel is just so much better.
I am just playing Visions and Dig Through Time and no I cannot. Even if I could, I still wouldn't. Angel comes down a turn later so it does 3 less damage.
It also does 3 more damage if your opponent has Bolt in hand.
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Lightning Angel is modern legal, it was on the time spiral timeshifted sheet so there's no need for a complete reprint. If you really think it would be better than mantis rider in delver, you're free to play it yourself.
I can't consistently get 4 mana by turn 4 in a 20 land deck. So yes, I'll take the risk of Manris Rider being blown out by Lightning Bolt (which happens less likely than you would think, especially with Delver and Burn decks wanting to cast main-phase/in combat Bolts for Swiftspear) over the much more likely risk of not being able to play a primary threat until turn 6.
You're telling me, that with Thought scour/Serum Visions/Treasure Cruise/Gitaxian Probe/Electrolyze/EVERY OTHER CARD DRAW spell available in a Delver deck, you can't hit 4 lands? My Grixis Delver only runs 17 lands, and I can get 4 lands T4 pretty consistently (annoyingly so, honestly).
Mantis Rider is a good card, don't get me wrong. But Lightning Angel is just so much better.
I am just playing Visions and Dig Through Time and no I cannot. Even if I could, I still wouldn't. Angel comes down a turn later so it does 3 less damage.
It also does 3 more damage if your opponent has Bolt in hand.
Yes, Bolt sees a lot of play. But your opponent won't always have it and have mana up when you cast the Rider.
Lightning Angel is modern legal, it was on the time spiral timeshifted sheet so there's no need for a complete reprint. If you really think it would be better than mantis rider in delver, you're free to play it yourself.
I can't consistently get 4 mana by turn 4 in a 20 land deck. So yes, I'll take the risk of Manris Rider being blown out by Lightning Bolt (which happens less likely than you would think, especially with Delver and Burn decks wanting to cast main-phase/in combat Bolts for Swiftspear) over the much more likely risk of not being able to play a primary threat until turn 6.
You're telling me, that with Thought scour/Serum Visions/Treasure Cruise/Gitaxian Probe/Electrolyze/EVERY OTHER CARD DRAW spell available in a Delver deck, you can't hit 4 lands? My Grixis Delver only runs 17 lands, and I can get 4 lands T4 pretty consistently (annoyingly so, honestly).
Mantis Rider is a good card, don't get me wrong. But Lightning Angel is just so much better.
I am just playing Visions and Dig Through Time and no I cannot. Even if I could, I still wouldn't. Angel comes down a turn later so it does 3 less damage.
It also does 3 more damage if your opponent has Bolt in hand.
Yes, Bolt sees a lot of play. But your opponent won't always have it and have mana up when you cast the Rider.
You're opponent never has one mana up to cast Lightning Bolt, two mana up to cast Lightning Helix, Three mana up to Snap Bolt, or Four mana up to snap helix?
I would love to play against those players.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
Lightning Angel is modern legal, it was on the time spiral timeshifted sheet so there's no need for a complete reprint. If you really think it would be better than mantis rider in delver, you're free to play it yourself.
You're telling me, that with Thought scour/Serum Visions/Treasure Cruise/Gitaxian Probe/Electrolyze/EVERY OTHER CARD DRAW spell available in a Delver deck, you can't hit 4 lands? My Grixis Delver only runs 17 lands, and I can get 4 lands T4 pretty consistently (annoyingly so, honestly).
Mantis Rider is a good card, don't get me wrong. But Lightning Angel is just so much better.
I am just playing Visions and Dig Through Time and no I cannot. Even if I could, I still wouldn't. Angel comes down a turn later so it does 3 less damage.
It also does 3 more damage if your opponent has Bolt in hand.
Yes, Bolt sees a lot of play. But your opponent won't always have it and have mana up when you cast the Rider.
You're opponent never has one mana up to cast Lightning Bolt, two mana up to cast Lightning Helix, Three mana up to Snap Bolt, or Four mana up to snap helix?
I would love to play against those players.
Stop being an idiot. There are 4 decks in Modern that play Helix, none of which are tier 1. Burn and Delver are casting Bolt mainphase for Swiftspear. Also, are you seriously assuming that whenever you cast Rider your opponent will have Bolt and mana up to cast it? Even if you get just 1 attack from Rider you are still coming ahead in that trade. I'll take the risk over not being able to cast a threat until turn 5-6.
I still want to squeeze 4 Squadron Hawks into every deck that runs white. I love that card, but I just don't know how to utilize it properly without his best friends, Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Boy, do I miss brainstorming with Jace, putting 2 Hawks top of the library, then casting another Hawk from my hand...good times.
Lightning Angel is modern legal, it was on the time spiral timeshifted sheet so there's no need for a complete reprint. If you really think it would be better than mantis rider in delver, you're free to play it yourself.
I am just playing Visions and Dig Through Time and no I cannot. Even if I could, I still wouldn't. Angel comes down a turn later so it does 3 less damage.
It also does 3 more damage if your opponent has Bolt in hand.
Yes, Bolt sees a lot of play. But your opponent won't always have it and have mana up when you cast the Rider.
You're opponent never has one mana up to cast Lightning Bolt, two mana up to cast Lightning Helix, Three mana up to Snap Bolt, or Four mana up to snap helix?
I would love to play against those players.
Stop being an idiot. There are 4 decks in Modern that play Helix, none of which are tier 1. Burn and Delver are casting Bolt mainphase for Swiftspear. Also, are you seriously assuming that whenever you cast Rider your opponent will have Bolt and mana up to cast it? Even if you get just 1 attack from Rider you are still coming ahead in that trade. I'll take the risk over not being able to cast a threat until turn 5-6.
I'm not being an idiot, you are; Burn and Delver will absolutely kill Mantis Rider ASAP because not only does it put them on a slight clock, it is fully capable of blocking their Swiftspears and Delver (Swiftspear will do far more damage in one hit, Delver will do far more over time) ASSUMING Swiftspear is even on the field (In which case Delver goes Control Mode and Burn just don't care).
Any deck that relies on creatures to deal damage will indeed kill something that is A) More than likely unblockable, and B) Capable of stopping damage to YOUR face. Flying and Vigilance, especially against Delver of Secrets, is a significant problem due to being a massive tempo swing against a deck that requires Tempo to succeed.
That's not including WUR Delver, Zoo, and other W/R decks that have Helix that are fully willing to hold on to them until your turn.
Mantis Rider just simply dies too easily to be good;
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
hi all.. im new to the site and wasnt sure how to go about starting a post of my own so i apologize for jumping in on this thread with something off-topic.. I just wanted to know if anyone can tell me about this Viashino Fangtail card I have (see pics i've uploaded). Is it just a print/ink error or could the effects have maybe been added on purpose by the artist? Any input would be appreciated.
Also, let's try and keep the conversation respectful. Some posts here are dangerously close to flaming territory, and I don't want to ruin a lively conversation with some infractions
It also does 3 more damage if your opponent has Bolt in hand.
Yes, Bolt sees a lot of play. But your opponent won't always have it and have mana up when you cast the Rider.
You're opponent never has one mana up to cast Lightning Bolt, two mana up to cast Lightning Helix, Three mana up to Snap Bolt, or Four mana up to snap helix?
I would love to play against those players.
Stop being an idiot. There are 4 decks in Modern that play Helix, none of which are tier 1. Burn and Delver are casting Bolt mainphase for Swiftspear. Also, are you seriously assuming that whenever you cast Rider your opponent will have Bolt and mana up to cast it? Even if you get just 1 attack from Rider you are still coming ahead in that trade. I'll take the risk over not being able to cast a threat until turn 5-6.
I'm not being an idiot, you are; Burn and Delver will absolutely kill Mantis Rider ASAP because not only does it put them on a slight clock, it is fully capable of blocking their Swiftspears and Delver (Swiftspear will do far more damage in one hit, Delver will do far more over time) ASSUMING Swiftspear is even on the field (In which case Delver goes Control Mode and Burn just don't care).
Any deck that relies on creatures to deal damage will indeed kill something that is A) More than likely unblockable, and B) Capable of stopping damage to YOUR face. Flying and Vigilance, especially against Delver of Secrets, is a significant problem due to being a massive tempo swing against a deck that requires Tempo to succeed.
That's not including WUR Delver, Zoo, and other W/R decks that have Helix that are fully willing to hold on to them until your turn.
Mantis Rider just simply dies too easily to be good;
I never said that Rider wouldn't die ASAP. I was arguing that Delver has 4 spells that can kill it (that they may have spent on your own Delver already) and that Burn and Delver might not be holding up red mana on your turn. And I was talking about common decks. When WUR Delver and Zoo become more played then Rider will get worse, but that doesn't make it less playable now. Also, I never said that Rider is great against Bolt. I said that it is worth the risk when the alternative is playing a card that I might not be able to play until turn 6 for just 1 more toughness.
Mantis rider does some real work, as does lightning angel. I had previously fiddled around with angel as I like the combo of abilities and that its effectively bolt and decay proof and snare proof. its solid and robust and while not the best thing you could be doing for 4 mana, does great work in decks that want to apply pressure without having to be balls to the wall about it.
A resolved angel is super easy to protect and ride to victory after, it feels sort of a modern version of legacy's delver, but on training wheels.
Mantis rider has also been great, especially as its been printed in a period of relative lack of abrupt decay. Every other creature in the format besides tarmoguy pretty much fails the bolt test too. Also don't run creatures into open remand and bolt mana without a spell pierce or something.
I myself would like to see stoic angel see some play, but I don't know how to work it right--I just try and jam everything into 4c gifts shells.
I think both are great american delver creatures and will see more play as the format evolves unless they get usurped by something better.
I personaly think that Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is highly underplayed.
I also think that aether vial is underplayed although it is not a creature i think it is a generator so it should count
But thalia is really good when she is in play and stopes delver decks right now along with storm burn and anything other and zoo and jund like decks that only play creatures she really goes to town on the enemies creatures with firsts strike
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[center][color=Blue]
U/R Delver
Edric Spy and die
Azami the lady of the draw
Naya Zoo
Past decks
Orloro
sharuum the hegemond
Mono black control
splinter twin
The biggest and obvious drawback is that it dies horribly to bolt. If only it was a 2/4 or 3/4!
Or maybe if they printed a 2 mana toughness boosting bear to help it survive?
Shieldmdate W1
Human Soldier 2/3
Other creatures you control get +0/+1
I have wanted a 2 mana 2/1 or even a 1/1 that only had the "Players can't pay life or sacrifice creatures to cast spells or activate abilities." for a long time.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
The biggest and obvious drawback is that it dies horribly to bolt. If only it was a 2/4 or 3/4!
Or maybe if they printed a 2 mana toughness boosting bear to help it survive?
CMC = 4. It comes down after Thoughtseize is at its prime, and when your opponent should have already done most of the fetching they need.
What it does extremely well is interfere with the whole Pod deck, preventing them from sacrificing to Seer, searching for dudes or casting Pod for 3. Abrupt Decay can't hit it, and the other Pod-hosing angel (Linvala) gets hit by the same removal. It's a great budget alternative to Linvala as a sideboard card against Pod.
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GW Hatebears more like HateBROS BWR THE ARISTAHCRATZ!
I think Witchstalker could do well in a metagame that revolves around spot removal and early counterspells. It's only weakness is that Troll Acetic exists at the same cmc.
I still want to squeeze 4 Squadron Hawks into every deck that runs white. I love that card, but I just don't know how to utilize it properly without his best friends, Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Boy, do I miss brainstorming with Jace, putting 2 Hawks top of the library, then casting another Hawk from my hand...good times.
Play Soul Sisters or Martyr Proc...they're actually pretty well positioned right now.
Have everyone forgotten that this is a card? It used to see play before in sideboards.
It's bolt proof, and it hates on treasure cruise without even trying too hard, while beating down or trading 2 for 1.
I still want to squeeze 4 Squadron Hawks into every deck that runs white. I love that card, but I just don't know how to utilize it properly without his best friends, Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Boy, do I miss brainstorming with Jace, putting 2 Hawks top of the library, then casting another Hawk from my hand...good times.
I find that lingering souls out classes it in W/B/x builds
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You're telling me, that with Thought scour/Serum Visions/Treasure Cruise/Gitaxian Probe/Electrolyze/EVERY OTHER CARD DRAW spell available in a Delver deck, you can't hit 4 lands? My Grixis Delver only runs 17 lands, and I can get 4 lands T4 pretty consistently (annoyingly so, honestly).
Mantis Rider is a good card, don't get me wrong. But Lightning Angel is just so much better.
It's not so much "can't hit 4 lands". It's more of "if I hit 4 lands, why would I want to hold up Cryptic mana when I can Cruise and fire off two other spells?" The Treasure Cruise play lets you cast more spells in one turn, which is good for Swiftspear and Young Pyromancer, and good for your tempo as well. Instead of tapping all their blockers and drawing a card with Cryptic, you can Cruise into some combination of Vapor Snag and Bolt, removing all their blockers with cards to spare. Or just throw the Bolts at their head to finish them off.
Yeah this is a thread about underplayed cards, but we still have to stick to the facts. FACT: None of the Delver decks listed on the first 3 pages of MTGTop8 plays Cryptic Command. (I checked.) That's 60 decks with 0 Cryptics. I don't know where you're getting "Delver decks still play Cryptic" from, would you like to show me?
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Lightning Angel is modern legal, it was on the time spiral timeshifted sheet so there's no need for a complete reprint. If you really think it would be better than mantis rider in delver, you're free to play it yourself.
I am just playing Visions and Dig Through Time and no I cannot. Even if I could, I still wouldn't. Angel comes down a turn later so it does 3 less damage.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Except it's in the wrong colors
It also does 3 more damage if your opponent has Bolt in hand.
Yes, Bolt sees a lot of play. But your opponent won't always have it and have mana up when you cast the Rider.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You're opponent never has one mana up to cast Lightning Bolt, two mana up to cast Lightning Helix, Three mana up to Snap Bolt, or Four mana up to snap helix?
I would love to play against those players.
Stop being an idiot. There are 4 decks in Modern that play Helix, none of which are tier 1. Burn and Delver are casting Bolt mainphase for Swiftspear. Also, are you seriously assuming that whenever you cast Rider your opponent will have Bolt and mana up to cast it? Even if you get just 1 attack from Rider you are still coming ahead in that trade. I'll take the risk over not being able to cast a threat until turn 5-6.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
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I'm not being an idiot, you are; Burn and Delver will absolutely kill Mantis Rider ASAP because not only does it put them on a slight clock, it is fully capable of blocking their Swiftspears and Delver (Swiftspear will do far more damage in one hit, Delver will do far more over time) ASSUMING Swiftspear is even on the field (In which case Delver goes Control Mode and Burn just don't care).
Any deck that relies on creatures to deal damage will indeed kill something that is A) More than likely unblockable, and B) Capable of stopping damage to YOUR face. Flying and Vigilance, especially against Delver of Secrets, is a significant problem due to being a massive tempo swing against a deck that requires Tempo to succeed.
That's not including WUR Delver, Zoo, and other W/R decks that have Helix that are fully willing to hold on to them until your turn.
Mantis Rider just simply dies too easily to be good;
Wrong subforum for this. Try Magic General maybe?
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general
Also, let's try and keep the conversation respectful. Some posts here are dangerously close to flaming territory, and I don't want to ruin a lively conversation with some infractions
I never said that Rider wouldn't die ASAP. I was arguing that Delver has 4 spells that can kill it (that they may have spent on your own Delver already) and that Burn and Delver might not be holding up red mana on your turn. And I was talking about common decks. When WUR Delver and Zoo become more played then Rider will get worse, but that doesn't make it less playable now. Also, I never said that Rider is great against Bolt. I said that it is worth the risk when the alternative is playing a card that I might not be able to play until turn 6 for just 1 more toughness.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Mantis rider does some real work, as does lightning angel. I had previously fiddled around with angel as I like the combo of abilities and that its effectively bolt and decay proof and snare proof. its solid and robust and while not the best thing you could be doing for 4 mana, does great work in decks that want to apply pressure without having to be balls to the wall about it.
A resolved angel is super easy to protect and ride to victory after, it feels sort of a modern version of legacy's delver, but on training wheels.
Mantis rider has also been great, especially as its been printed in a period of relative lack of abrupt decay. Every other creature in the format besides tarmoguy pretty much fails the bolt test too. Also don't run creatures into open remand and bolt mana without a spell pierce or something.
I myself would like to see stoic angel see some play, but I don't know how to work it right--I just try and jam everything into 4c gifts shells.
I think both are great american delver creatures and will see more play as the format evolves unless they get usurped by something better.
I also think that aether vial is underplayed although it is not a creature i think it is a generator so it should count
But thalia is really good when she is in play and stopes delver decks right now along with storm burn and anything other and zoo and jund like decks that only play creatures she really goes to town on the enemies creatures with firsts strike
[center][color=Blue]
Edric Spy and die
Azami the lady of the draw
Naya Zoo
Past decks
Orloro
sharuum the hegemond
Mono black control
splinter twin
Shuts down
Thoughtseize
Pod
Fetches
The biggest and obvious drawback is that it dies horribly to bolt. If only it was a 2/4 or 3/4!
Or maybe if they printed a 2 mana toughness boosting bear to help it survive?
Shieldmdate W1
Human Soldier 2/3
Other creatures you control get +0/+1
Or something to that effect.
Veteran Armorer?
Put that on a 2/2 for 2 and you got a staple! So much difference between 2 and 3 mana..
I have wanted a 2 mana 2/1 or even a 1/1 that only had the "Players can't pay life or sacrifice creatures to cast spells or activate abilities." for a long time.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
Mind you, I wanted Rakshasa Deathdealer, but the creature types of the Leech are more relevant.
CMC = 4. It comes down after Thoughtseize is at its prime, and when your opponent should have already done most of the fetching they need.
What it does extremely well is interfere with the whole Pod deck, preventing them from sacrificing to Seer, searching for dudes or casting Pod for 3. Abrupt Decay can't hit it, and the other Pod-hosing angel (Linvala) gets hit by the same removal. It's a great budget alternative to Linvala as a sideboard card against Pod.
BWR THE ARISTAHCRATZ!
Play Soul Sisters or Martyr Proc...they're actually pretty well positioned right now.
Modern: GW Hatebears/midrange, WGU Knightfall/evolution midrange stuff
Standard: nope
Legacy: W Death & Taxes
EDH (not Commander!): W Avacyn, Angel of Hope, GR Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, WGB Anafenza, the Foremost, WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator
Jötun Grunt
Have everyone forgotten that this is a card? It used to see play before in sideboards.
It's bolt proof, and it hates on treasure cruise without even trying too hard, while beating down or trading 2 for 1.
I find that lingering souls out classes it in W/B/x builds