So what is everyone's thoughts about this card? Potentially +6/+6 for G, It's one hell of a combat trick. It does potentially shrink your (Or your opponents) Goyf, but still gives a ton of value....
Since Treasure Cruise and Hooting Mandrils are getting time in the spotlight, was just wondering what everyone thought about this.
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Infect was the first thing that came to mind. I believe because the other spells give +4/+4 and it usually takes 2 of these to get lethal, +6/+6 may not be that much better. However, it is tough to say this because +6/+6 is in strictly better than +4/+4 obviously. The Modern Infect deck can easily get several cards into the graveyard, with fetches, Gitaxian Probe, and the pump spells of course.
At first glance, 2 may not be a bad choice, but we'll see. I am not a dedicated Infect player by any means; I have just been testing it for the past 3 weeks vs. 4 other decks.
I guess the good part with it is that it can combine with Mutagenic Growth for a 1 hit kill if you have Exalted or Pendelhaven is activated. The tough part is the order in which you probably will have to cast pump spells because of Delve and only being able to use this card once a game (I guess unless it's a seriously long game and you have a bunch of lands in play).
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
It's not worth playing. By the time you have enough cards in your graveyard to reduce it to 2 or less, you have either already given them 10 poison counters, or they killed all your creatures. So the game is basically decided at that point: you've either won already, or lost (and Become Immense won't do anything to change that loss into a win).
It's not worth playing. By the time you have enough cards in your graveyard to reduce it to 2 or less, you have either already given them 10 poison counters, or they killed all your creatures. So the game is basically decided at that point: you've either won already, or lost (and Become Immense won't do anything to change that loss into a win).
Izzetmage, I respect your opinion as one of the few infect players who appears to know what they are talking about, and I agree that when viewed solely as a pump spell, become immense is not quite there.
However, I view it as a sideboard card, that isnt the worst thing to maindeck. Ive been in the habit of maindecking 'sideboard' cards in infect for quite some time (wild defiance, spellskite, dismember), and they have typically served me well. The fact is that wild defiance is quite a bad 'pump spell', but its real purpose is an anti hate card, not just against the obvious (burn spells), but also against the less obvious (chalice on 1, spellskite)
Become immense has many of the same signatures in infect. As a pump spell, it doesnt come down on time. In almost any scenario involving become immense killing on turn 3, another pump spell would have sufficed. Building your deck around become immense by playing a ton of fetches and maxing out on probes is making you unneccesarily weak to burn for a 1-2 of pump spell that isnt even that amazing. These are the points against the card, and they arent all unreasonable.
However, lets consider the 'non-obvious' uses of the card. First and foremost is shrinking goyf, an admittedly minor consideration, but not entirely irrelevant. Secondly, this is a pump spell that can be played through chalice. This will only come up a small fraction of the time, but when it does, it will be single handedly game winning. Thirdly, this card cannot be taken by inquizition of kozilek. This is another not super important but potentially very impactful when it matters type thing.
Lastly, this makes winning through 'ordinary damage' reasonably easier. I would say games vs BG/x decks often each this situation vs me (~20% of the time). Also, it comes up any time an opponent chords for melira. These opponents typically take at least 5 from lands/dismember/thoughtseize, so killing with ordinary damage is a real thing, and the extra 2 points will frequently matter significantly.
Although I would side it out vs burn, its also worth noting that you dont damage yourself when you cast it through Eidolon of the Great Revel.
Finally, as long as some infect players use it, it will be a card the opponent has to consider, much like slaughter pact (is a card infect players must often consider). This is a minor point, but its nice to always keep an opponent guessing.
Finally, I think that simply casting this for 3 mana will often be fine. I.e. they kill your turn 1 fetch into elf. You then play shockland into blighted agent. Turn 3 you play an inkmoth, and mutagenic growth, exile 3, play become immense for 3, and hit for 9. They untap, and can deal with your agent, but not your inkmoth. Obviously this scenario is contrived, but it is illustrative of the fact that its not wholly unreasonable for become immense to be cast for 2-3 on turn 3, and help use inkmoth mana effectively.
Im not 100% sold on it yet, since its very hard to get a good sense of a 1-2 of without a lot of testing, but I do think become immense is worth testing, and definitely something to keep in mind, especially if, say, chalice becomes much more popular in sideboards due to a deck like jeskai ascendancy storm.
Just for reference, the Infect list that I was referring to was Tom Ross's Modern UG Infect. It plays 4 Gitaxian Probe and 8 fetches with 4 Breeding Pool, 4 Inkmoth Nexus, 2 Forest, Dryad Arbor, and 2 Pendelhaven. Maybe it is not a good choice to play Infect in a Burn heavy meta?
I actually have been testing UG Infect vs. Burn preboard and it seems pretty close to a 50/50 win ratio. The cool thing about playing against Burn is that land, Noble Hierarch into Inkmoth Nexus/Wild Defiance pretty much wins the game on the spot. While I do know that there are better combos in Modern and those are not all 4 ofs, still it is a strong point that can and does happen. I don't personally think Infect vs. Burn is where I want to be, but I don't think that it is a concession of a matchup by far.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
on the topic on infect, i think it has a place in a very (expensive) fetch land / free spell base deck, i solitared around a bit and found the immense + infect means you only need 3 more power to win, assuming no blockers.
instant (20)
4x Become Immense
4x Groundswell
4x Manamorphose
4x Might of Old Krosa
4x Predator's Strike
Creature (16)
4x Blight Mamba
4x Glistener Elf
4x Ichorclaw Myr
4x Street Wraith
Land (20)
8x Forest
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
4x Apostle's Blessing
4x Leyline of Lifeforce
3x Phytoburst
4x Vines of Vastwood
Sorcery (4)
4x Gitaxian Probe
its a bit rough, due to my lack of ability to test this thing, but 1 hit kills are not hard in the deck, free cyclers mean the grave gets full very fast, i don't know a massive ammount of infect so if you guys have some suggestions that'd help. i imagine adding a few colors wouldn't be hard nor a bad idea since we already have 12 fetchlands. bant maybe? invisible stalker and protection cards?
I threw together a quick and dirty BG Infect to be part of a gauntlet, Thinking that Phyrexian Crusader Seems well positioned right now with all the UR decks around, and I included become immense as a four of. It played about like I expect infect to play- with a plague stinger getting there on his own on T3 with help from fetches filling the yard.
I feel like treasure cruise is better for infect which is a little sad.
treasure cruise is the new black, it goes well with everything...
Drawing cards is simply the most powerful thing in magic as CA is the real deal to win matches, and infect it's not an exception.
- L
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"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
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So what is everyone's thoughts about this card? Potentially +6/+6 for G, It's one hell of a combat trick. It does potentially shrink your (Or your opponents) Goyf, but still gives a ton of value....
Since Treasure Cruise and Hooting Mandrils are getting time in the spotlight, was just wondering what everyone thought about this.
It is a pretty cool card though. Delve got some awesome treatment in this set.
Yo momma so fat, not even I could Become Immense enough to match her!
Infect was the first thing that came to mind. I believe because the other spells give +4/+4 and it usually takes 2 of these to get lethal, +6/+6 may not be that much better. However, it is tough to say this because +6/+6 is in strictly better than +4/+4 obviously. The Modern Infect deck can easily get several cards into the graveyard, with fetches, Gitaxian Probe, and the pump spells of course.
At first glance, 2 may not be a bad choice, but we'll see. I am not a dedicated Infect player by any means; I have just been testing it for the past 3 weeks vs. 4 other decks.
I guess the good part with it is that it can combine with Mutagenic Growth for a 1 hit kill if you have Exalted or Pendelhaven is activated. The tough part is the order in which you probably will have to cast pump spells because of Delve and only being able to use this card once a game (I guess unless it's a seriously long game and you have a bunch of lands in play).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Izzetmage, I respect your opinion as one of the few infect players who appears to know what they are talking about, and I agree that when viewed solely as a pump spell, become immense is not quite there.
However, I view it as a sideboard card, that isnt the worst thing to maindeck. Ive been in the habit of maindecking 'sideboard' cards in infect for quite some time (wild defiance, spellskite, dismember), and they have typically served me well. The fact is that wild defiance is quite a bad 'pump spell', but its real purpose is an anti hate card, not just against the obvious (burn spells), but also against the less obvious (chalice on 1, spellskite)
Become immense has many of the same signatures in infect. As a pump spell, it doesnt come down on time. In almost any scenario involving become immense killing on turn 3, another pump spell would have sufficed. Building your deck around become immense by playing a ton of fetches and maxing out on probes is making you unneccesarily weak to burn for a 1-2 of pump spell that isnt even that amazing. These are the points against the card, and they arent all unreasonable.
However, lets consider the 'non-obvious' uses of the card. First and foremost is shrinking goyf, an admittedly minor consideration, but not entirely irrelevant. Secondly, this is a pump spell that can be played through chalice. This will only come up a small fraction of the time, but when it does, it will be single handedly game winning. Thirdly, this card cannot be taken by inquizition of kozilek. This is another not super important but potentially very impactful when it matters type thing.
Lastly, this makes winning through 'ordinary damage' reasonably easier. I would say games vs BG/x decks often each this situation vs me (~20% of the time). Also, it comes up any time an opponent chords for melira. These opponents typically take at least 5 from lands/dismember/thoughtseize, so killing with ordinary damage is a real thing, and the extra 2 points will frequently matter significantly.
Although I would side it out vs burn, its also worth noting that you dont damage yourself when you cast it through Eidolon of the Great Revel.
Finally, as long as some infect players use it, it will be a card the opponent has to consider, much like slaughter pact (is a card infect players must often consider). This is a minor point, but its nice to always keep an opponent guessing.
Finally, I think that simply casting this for 3 mana will often be fine. I.e. they kill your turn 1 fetch into elf. You then play shockland into blighted agent. Turn 3 you play an inkmoth, and mutagenic growth, exile 3, play become immense for 3, and hit for 9. They untap, and can deal with your agent, but not your inkmoth. Obviously this scenario is contrived, but it is illustrative of the fact that its not wholly unreasonable for become immense to be cast for 2-3 on turn 3, and help use inkmoth mana effectively.
Im not 100% sold on it yet, since its very hard to get a good sense of a 1-2 of without a lot of testing, but I do think become immense is worth testing, and definitely something to keep in mind, especially if, say, chalice becomes much more popular in sideboards due to a deck like jeskai ascendancy storm.
I actually have been testing UG Infect vs. Burn preboard and it seems pretty close to a 50/50 win ratio. The cool thing about playing against Burn is that land, Noble Hierarch into Inkmoth Nexus/Wild Defiance pretty much wins the game on the spot. While I do know that there are better combos in Modern and those are not all 4 ofs, still it is a strong point that can and does happen. I don't personally think Infect vs. Burn is where I want to be, but I don't think that it is a concession of a matchup by far.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)instant (20)
4x Become Immense
4x Groundswell
4x Manamorphose
4x Might of Old Krosa
4x Predator's Strike
Creature (16)
4x Blight Mamba
4x Glistener Elf
4x Ichorclaw Myr
4x Street Wraith
Land (20)
8x Forest
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
4x Apostle's Blessing
4x Leyline of Lifeforce
3x Phytoburst
4x Vines of Vastwood
Sorcery (4)
4x Gitaxian Probe
its a bit rough, due to my lack of ability to test this thing, but 1 hit kills are not hard in the deck, free cyclers mean the grave gets full very fast, i don't know a massive ammount of infect so if you guys have some suggestions that'd help. i imagine adding a few colors wouldn't be hard nor a bad idea since we already have 12 fetchlands. bant maybe? invisible stalker and protection cards?
treasure cruise is the new black, it goes well with everything...
Drawing cards is simply the most powerful thing in magic as CA is the real deal to win matches, and infect it's not an exception.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater