Honestly, aside from people trying to do tribal myr, there are just better things to be doing in artifacts, and there are several cheaper manadorks. Don't let me rain on your parade if you think you can make it work, though.
Unfortunately such a deck is miles behind Jeskai Ascendancy. No cantrips, mana dorks costing 2 and no way to generate mana mid-combo are the reasons why.
For artifact decks like Tezzerator I'm sure they prefer Talisman of Dominance or Talisman of Progress over Myrs simply because those manafacts can't be bolted and can tap for two colors.
This was always a card I wanted to build a combo deck around. You wouldn't even need to deal the full 20 in one Salvo if you had backup burn spells. I can't imagine that this deck would be any better than current dredge strategies (that aim to fill your own graveyard quickly) or Eggs (another artifact-heavy deck), but it's still a cool exercise.
How many artifacts do you need in your graveyard for Scrapyard Salvo to be worth it? Flame Javelin does 4 damage for 3 mana. So does Char. Let's peg it at 4.
Can you reliably get 4 or more artifacts in the graveyard by turn 3?
No, because casting 3 eggs and cracking them all only gets 3.
Besides, if you play eggs in your deck, then you have to ask yourself "what am I doing, playing Scrapyard Salvo in my deck???"
What about milling myself?
Then how is your deck going to win, if it pretty much contains only mill spells, artifacts, and Scrapyard Salvo? Can you recover if you mill a Salvo? Or do you have to spend even more resources trying to dig for another one (possibly milling it again)?
What about as a combo wincon?
Is is better than Grapeshot or Banefire? Most likely not. Even the only deck that can support Scrapyard Salvo as its wincon (Eggs) would not play it.
Seeing Stingscourger brings up one question for me: What does Goblins need to succeed in Modern? It's currently one of those solidly tier 3 decks, with a few MTGO finishes every season, but nothing consistent enough to merit full tier 2 status. Lacking Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Piledriver (although Goblin Rabblemaster doesn't do a bad impression), and a few other classic cards, it is difficult for the deck to really excel in Modern. Stingscourger is one of those cards that gives the deck versatility, but not without Matron to search it out.
I love him, he is one of the better cards in goblins. I think goblins just need a way to gain card advantage, that doesnt require you hitting them. Its too easy to slow the assult in modern and they just cant hang in the late game. Some tribal instants in BR would be helpful as well.
As you can tell, the token makers are quite important in Goblins, and there's enough of them at 2 mana so that doesn't need improvement. (Khans also brought Hordeling Outburst, but the 3 slot is pretty crowded IMO, with 4 Chieftain and 3-4 Animosity. If not for that, Outburst would be really good, since it's a 3-for-1.) The lords/anthems could be better though. Goblin Chieftain is powerful...provided it doesn't get killed.
Goblins would do better if there was something else which had synergy with Goblin tokens that doesn't die as easily as Chieftain. A redundant Foundry Street Denizen at 1 or 2 mana would help. As far as lords go, it's pretty hard to top Chieftain without completely obsoleting it. A 2-mana lord like those in Merfolk would be fine, but it would need to grant haste since you'd want to lead T2 lord into T3 Outburst and attack.
I haven't played Goblins in a while, but if I were to build the deck now I'd look into switching Chieftain for Rabblemaster. Rabbles is just as vulnerable as Chieftain, but he makes MOAR TOKENS, which is all your Denizens/Animosities need. You can even win a war of attrition if your opponent can only block 1 token per turn.
Stingscourger is one of those cards that I really want to work, but never seems to make the cut.
It's a reasonably costed tempo effect in red. I tend to think it would work in a WUR tempo build, running cards like Geist of Saint Traft and Goblin Guide. It even plays nicely with flicker effects.
But most of the time, there are just better things to run.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
More tribal themed cards! I've seen at least a few Vampire decks in the format, and although Feast probably would not make the cut in such a deck, it's still interesting to speculate if Vampires have what it takes. Bloodghast is definitely playable, as is Gatekeeper and probably stuff like Pulse Tracker/Vampire Lacerator in an aggressive shell. Is the deck better than other aggro options in the format? Does it have the cards to keep pace with Burn, Affinity, and other aggro contenders?
No, Vampires does not have what it takes, and the deck absolutely cannot keep pace with Burn or Affinity.
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Is the deck better than other aggro options in the format? Does it have the cards to keep pace with Burn, Affinity, and other aggro contenders?
No, IMHO. Its like Zoo except worse at winning (no Wild Nacatl, for starters), in exchange for black disruption. It doesn't even have the absurd top-curve stuff that Merfolk has in Thassa and Master of Waves, which gives it no legs in the mid-late game. The closest they come to a Master of Waves lategame value card is Vampire Nocturnus, which just plain isn't good enough since it's not even 4 power on its own unless the top of your deck is the right cards, and its boltable, unlike Master.
You probably could build a deck good enough to make tier 2. Vampires have much better disruption and marginally more legs than Goblins, though not as much token production (one thing Vampires have historically been lacking in). That's not a problem for Fish though, so I don't see it as an issue here, though printing a Vampire version of Dragon Fodder would go a long way to making Vampire's more playable.
Also, Domain Zoo already can run Thoughtseize and Inquisition (though AFAIK, the current builds don't) while having much, much better threats. Yet Domain Zoo is such a non-factor as to be insignificant.
Maybe a Br build using the best of the red Vampire cards from INN? Stormkirk Noble, Stormkirk Captain, Falkenrath Aristocrat, with maybe a 2of Vampiric Fury (that's 6 extra damage with just 3 vampires on the board + first strike)? Then you could be playing Lightning Bolt too, helping with your late-game problems.
In conclusion, They are Merfolk that don't have as many lords, don't have as much reach in the late game, lose a lot of their evasion, and don't have counterspells/effects. In exchange, they get black disruption and removal, with some red stuff to make them more aggressive and removal able to go to the face? That's just not an equal trade.
I've played Vampires in Modern. It was okay. Vampire Nocturnus is still a beating. It just doesn't measure up to the real aggro decks in format.
I think KTK makes it better simply because you can run ten black fetches for Nocturnus, and you get the fetch you actually want in Bloodstained Mire. It's still not going to be better than other things you could be doing, though, especially since Nocturnus doesn't play well with Bolt.
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Let the tribal parade continue! I would be remiss to not point out our Modern Slivers thread, 13 pages of discussion on how to make the tribe viable in our format. Although it's missing staples like Crystalline Sliver, Diffusion Sliver does a semi-decent imitation, and there are certainly plenty of other options to choose from. What is Slivers waiting for to become viable? Or what are the qualities affecting the deck that limit its viability in Modern?
What is Slivers waiting for to become viable? Or what are the qualities affecting the deck that limit its viability in Modern?
A reason to play it over Merfolk (aggro Slivers) or Elves (combo Slivers). Combo Slivers in particular is quite dire, as it's worse than even a tier 3 deck.
Merfolk...
- has a mana base that doesn't damage the user AND enables him to cast his noncreature spells, especially sideboard cards. I think a lot of people overlook the SB; they just assume that they'll be fine with 4 Cavern of Souls + 4 Sliver Hive.
- has a 1-mana (temporary) answer to sweepers and combos (Cursecatcher)
- has a 3rd lord (Rejeerey). Slivers only has a 3rd lord if it plays Swamps (Sedge Sliver).
- has an attacker that replaces itself upon ETB (Silvergill Adept)
- has a great utility card to mess around with their opponents' mana base, give them evasion, and add 1 devotion to Master of Waves (Spreading Seas). And like Silvergill Adept, it replaces itself.
Combo Slivers vs Elves:
- more colors
- Elves has 1 card at 1CMC that ignores summoning sickness and lets other Elves tap for mana (Heritage Druid). The equivalent in Slivers is split over 2 cards costing 2 and 3 mana each - Gemhide/Manaweft + Blur/Firewake.
- no Elvish Archdruid equivalent
- Slivers' Beck//Call equivalent (Dormant Sliver) costs 4 mana and can be Bolted
- the "cogs" in Elves (i.e. mana dorks like Llanowar Elves, Elvish Mystic) are actually useful in preparing you for your combo turn - they tap for 1 mana. You can lead T1 mana Elf into T2 3-drop. Slivers? You have things like Striking Sliver and Galerider Sliver, which are only useful for blocking (the puny 1/1 bodies aren't suited for that though).
One thing in common with both Merfolk and Elves is that they have a 2-mana creature that draws a card on ETB (Silvergill Adept and Elvish Visionary). However Slivers, being Slivers, would require the ability to apply to all Slivers [you control] by flavor. At 2 mana, that would be pretty damn strong since everything you cast from then on replaces itself.
The issue isn't the mana base; Slivers have Ancient Ziggurat, Sliver Hive, and Cavern of Souls, which is already 12 lands that tap for any color, and I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
The problem I see is that too many people think "Lords" means ONLY the +1/+1 Slivers. Massed Vigilance is often overlooked (Hey, it's incredibly powerful as a means to not only attack, but block when you need and still leave mana open for casting spells). People seem to want to make Slivers into Merfolk 2.0, which can't work due to how Controlling The Fish actually are.
Slivers pays a premium for the "all slivers gain ...." which prevents it from playing on the curve that elves/merfolk play. Paying 2-3 mana for 1/1s that need other creatures on the table to make it effective really punishes the speed it can play at.
I was a Hypergenesis player back in the day, so this has a soft spot for me in the big fat creatures department. One issue with the card in Modern is obviously his big competitor, Emrakul. If you are cheating a card into play, Emrakul often wins the game on its own, whereas Progentius takes 2 turns to do the job. The exception to this is in decks running stuff like Dramatic Entrance, where green matters and Emrakul just isn't green enough. Does Progenitus have a home? Can he come back into the format?
When it comes to building a combo deck based on Progenitus, there's a few things you should keep in mind:
1) Progenitus can't kill a player in one hit. So stuff that forces you to sac it EOT are bad - you basically just Searing Wind them (which they most likely survive, and they kill you right after). So you should avoid Through the Breach.
2) Progenitus' reveal-and-shuffle is a replacement effect, not a trigger (unlike Emrakul). So reanimation (Goryo's Vengeance, Makeshift Mannequin) doesn't work.
You know what was really funny? I put Voracious Wurm and Nourishing Shoal in that deck. So if you couldn't get Progs or Worldspine Wurm out, you could settle for a 2-mana 8/8...with no protection or evasion.
With TC and DTT making waves in Modern, is this a sign that we should look back to Tombstalker as a viable beatdown machine? One of the beats reasons not to play the demon was its anti-synergy with Bob. Nowadays, some BG lists are already ditching Bob in favor of other options, mostly because of Bob's vulnerability against the most-played aggro deck in the format (Burn). Is it Tombstalker's time to shine?
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Silver Myr!
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Myrs! I think we probably get at least one Myr tribal deck every month or so in the forum. And everyone loves Genesis Chamber.
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Unfortunately such a deck is miles behind Jeskai Ascendancy. No cantrips, mana dorks costing 2 and no way to generate mana mid-combo are the reasons why.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
They're like a subpar mix of a bunch of tribal identities, the least WotC could've done was make Myr Reservoir a land.
Oi, it's not like Ancient Tomb for Myr would break the game or anything...
Scrapyard Salvo!
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This was always a card I wanted to build a combo deck around. You wouldn't even need to deal the full 20 in one Salvo if you had backup burn spells. I can't imagine that this deck would be any better than current dredge strategies (that aim to fill your own graveyard quickly) or Eggs (another artifact-heavy deck), but it's still a cool exercise.
How many artifacts do you need in your graveyard for Scrapyard Salvo to be worth it?
Flame Javelin does 4 damage for 3 mana. So does Char. Let's peg it at 4.
Can you reliably get 4 or more artifacts in the graveyard by turn 3?
No, because casting 3 eggs and cracking them all only gets 3.
Besides, if you play eggs in your deck, then you have to ask yourself "what am I doing, playing Scrapyard Salvo in my deck???"
What about milling myself?
Then how is your deck going to win, if it pretty much contains only mill spells, artifacts, and Scrapyard Salvo? Can you recover if you mill a Salvo? Or do you have to spend even more resources trying to dig for another one (possibly milling it again)?
What about as a combo wincon?
Is is better than Grapeshot or Banefire? Most likely not. Even the only deck that can support Scrapyard Salvo as its wincon (Eggs) would not play it.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Stingscourger!
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Seeing Stingscourger brings up one question for me: What does Goblins need to succeed in Modern? It's currently one of those solidly tier 3 decks, with a few MTGO finishes every season, but nothing consistent enough to merit full tier 2 status. Lacking Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Piledriver (although Goblin Rabblemaster doesn't do a bad impression), and a few other classic cards, it is difficult for the deck to really excel in Modern. Stingscourger is one of those cards that gives the deck versatility, but not without Matron to search it out.
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Who's the Beatdown
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The Goblin decks in Legacy are really different from those in Modern. Modern Goblins is much more aggressive. Modern plays Goblin Guide and Legacy doesn't, for example. The main interaction in Modern Goblins are token makers (Mogg War Marshal, Krenko's Command, Dragon Fodder) + Foundry Street Denizen, or token makers + lords/anthems (Goblin Bushwhacker, Goblin Chieftain, Shared Animosity).
As you can tell, the token makers are quite important in Goblins, and there's enough of them at 2 mana so that doesn't need improvement. (Khans also brought Hordeling Outburst, but the 3 slot is pretty crowded IMO, with 4 Chieftain and 3-4 Animosity. If not for that, Outburst would be really good, since it's a 3-for-1.) The lords/anthems could be better though. Goblin Chieftain is powerful...provided it doesn't get killed.
Goblins would do better if there was something else which had synergy with Goblin tokens that doesn't die as easily as Chieftain. A redundant Foundry Street Denizen at 1 or 2 mana would help. As far as lords go, it's pretty hard to top Chieftain without completely obsoleting it. A 2-mana lord like those in Merfolk would be fine, but it would need to grant haste since you'd want to lead T2 lord into T3 Outburst and attack.
I haven't played Goblins in a while, but if I were to build the deck now I'd look into switching Chieftain for Rabblemaster. Rabbles is just as vulnerable as Chieftain, but he makes MOAR TOKENS, which is all your Denizens/Animosities need. You can even win a war of attrition if your opponent can only block 1 token per turn.
edit: sample decklist
2 Smoldering Spires
2 Mutavault
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Goblin Guide
4 Legion Loyalist
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Krenko's Command
4 Dragon Fodder
3 Shared Animosity
4 Lightning Bolt
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
It's a reasonably costed tempo effect in red. I tend to think it would work in a WUR tempo build, running cards like Geist of Saint Traft and Goblin Guide. It even plays nicely with flicker effects.
But most of the time, there are just better things to run.
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Feast of Blood!
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More tribal themed cards! I've seen at least a few Vampire decks in the format, and although Feast probably would not make the cut in such a deck, it's still interesting to speculate if Vampires have what it takes. Bloodghast is definitely playable, as is Gatekeeper and probably stuff like Pulse Tracker/Vampire Lacerator in an aggressive shell. Is the deck better than other aggro options in the format? Does it have the cards to keep pace with Burn, Affinity, and other aggro contenders?
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No, IMHO. Its like Zoo except worse at winning (no Wild Nacatl, for starters), in exchange for black disruption. It doesn't even have the absurd top-curve stuff that Merfolk has in Thassa and Master of Waves, which gives it no legs in the mid-late game. The closest they come to a Master of Waves lategame value card is Vampire Nocturnus, which just plain isn't good enough since it's not even 4 power on its own unless the top of your deck is the right cards, and its boltable, unlike Master.
You probably could build a deck good enough to make tier 2. Vampires have much better disruption and marginally more legs than Goblins, though not as much token production (one thing Vampires have historically been lacking in). That's not a problem for Fish though, so I don't see it as an issue here, though printing a Vampire version of Dragon Fodder would go a long way to making Vampire's more playable.
Also, Domain Zoo already can run Thoughtseize and Inquisition (though AFAIK, the current builds don't) while having much, much better threats. Yet Domain Zoo is such a non-factor as to be insignificant.
Maybe a Br build using the best of the red Vampire cards from INN? Stormkirk Noble, Stormkirk Captain, Falkenrath Aristocrat, with maybe a 2of Vampiric Fury (that's 6 extra damage with just 3 vampires on the board + first strike)? Then you could be playing Lightning Bolt too, helping with your late-game problems.
In conclusion, They are Merfolk that don't have as many lords, don't have as much reach in the late game, lose a lot of their evasion, and don't have counterspells/effects. In exchange, they get black disruption and removal, with some red stuff to make them more aggressive and removal able to go to the face? That's just not an equal trade.
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I think KTK makes it better simply because you can run ten black fetches for Nocturnus, and you get the fetch you actually want in Bloodstained Mire. It's still not going to be better than other things you could be doing, though, especially since Nocturnus doesn't play well with Bolt.
Sliver Hive!
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Let the tribal parade continue! I would be remiss to not point out our Modern Slivers thread, 13 pages of discussion on how to make the tribe viable in our format. Although it's missing staples like Crystalline Sliver, Diffusion Sliver does a semi-decent imitation, and there are certainly plenty of other options to choose from. What is Slivers waiting for to become viable? Or what are the qualities affecting the deck that limit its viability in Modern?
Merfolk...
- has a mana base that doesn't damage the user AND enables him to cast his noncreature spells, especially sideboard cards. I think a lot of people overlook the SB; they just assume that they'll be fine with 4 Cavern of Souls + 4 Sliver Hive.
- has a 1-mana (temporary) answer to sweepers and combos (Cursecatcher)
- has a 3rd lord (Rejeerey). Slivers only has a 3rd lord if it plays Swamps (Sedge Sliver).
- has an attacker that replaces itself upon ETB (Silvergill Adept)
- has a great utility card to mess around with their opponents' mana base, give them evasion, and add 1 devotion to Master of Waves (Spreading Seas). And like Silvergill Adept, it replaces itself.
Combo Slivers vs Elves:
- more colors
- Elves has 1 card at 1CMC that ignores summoning sickness and lets other Elves tap for mana (Heritage Druid). The equivalent in Slivers is split over 2 cards costing 2 and 3 mana each - Gemhide/Manaweft + Blur/Firewake.
- no Elvish Archdruid equivalent
- Slivers' Beck//Call equivalent (Dormant Sliver) costs 4 mana and can be Bolted
- the "cogs" in Elves (i.e. mana dorks like Llanowar Elves, Elvish Mystic) are actually useful in preparing you for your combo turn - they tap for 1 mana. You can lead T1 mana Elf into T2 3-drop. Slivers? You have things like Striking Sliver and Galerider Sliver, which are only useful for blocking (the puny 1/1 bodies aren't suited for that though).
One thing in common with both Merfolk and Elves is that they have a 2-mana creature that draws a card on ETB (Silvergill Adept and Elvish Visionary). However Slivers, being Slivers, would require the ability to apply to all Slivers [you control] by flavor. At 2 mana, that would be pretty damn strong since everything you cast from then on replaces itself.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
The problem I see is that too many people think "Lords" means ONLY the +1/+1 Slivers. Massed Vigilance is often overlooked (Hey, it's incredibly powerful as a means to not only attack, but block when you need and still leave mana open for casting spells). People seem to want to make Slivers into Merfolk 2.0, which can't work due to how Controlling The Fish actually are.
Slivers pays a premium for the "all slivers gain ...." which prevents it from playing on the curve that elves/merfolk play. Paying 2-3 mana for 1/1s that need other creatures on the table to make it effective really punishes the speed it can play at.
Progenitus!
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I was a Hypergenesis player back in the day, so this has a soft spot for me in the big fat creatures department. One issue with the card in Modern is obviously his big competitor, Emrakul. If you are cheating a card into play, Emrakul often wins the game on its own, whereas Progentius takes 2 turns to do the job. The exception to this is in decks running stuff like Dramatic Entrance, where green matters and Emrakul just isn't green enough. Does Progenitus have a home? Can he come back into the format?
1) Progenitus can't kill a player in one hit. So stuff that forces you to sac it EOT are bad - you basically just Searing Wind them (which they most likely survive, and they kill you right after). So you should avoid Through the Breach.
2) Progenitus' reveal-and-shuffle is a replacement effect, not a trigger (unlike Emrakul). So reanimation (Goryo's Vengeance, Makeshift Mannequin) doesn't work.
Some cards which work with Progs are: Dramatic Entrance, Summoning Trap, See the Unwritten, Quicksilver Amulet. In Legacy there is Natural Order.
I once built a terrible deck with the following shell. This was before Khans btw, so no See the Unwritten.
You know what was really funny? I put Voracious Wurm and Nourishing Shoal in that deck. So if you couldn't get Progs or Worldspine Wurm out, you could settle for a 2-mana 8/8...with no protection or evasion.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Tombstalker!
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With TC and DTT making waves in Modern, is this a sign that we should look back to Tombstalker as a viable beatdown machine? One of the beats reasons not to play the demon was its anti-synergy with Bob. Nowadays, some BG lists are already ditching Bob in favor of other options, mostly because of Bob's vulnerability against the most-played aggro deck in the format (Burn). Is it Tombstalker's time to shine?