Hey guys, just played in my first Pro Tour (finished 9-7 just out of the money if any of you actually cared about me.) and I have some fundamental news about the entire format concerning everything you guys are concerned about. I'll do a point form post here, so please take everything with care when you read it;
WARNING; THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION ABOUT THE DISCUSSION I HAVE HAD WITH AARON, I HAVE ALSO BEEN GIVEN CONTACT INFORMATION TO SET UP A FORMAL INTERVIEW IN THE NEAR FUTURE.
1. The pro tour line up for the following year was a decision based on a few factors;
A) The Modern format was stale, they felt that was bad for the format.
B) It didn't display enough innovation.
C) They understand how much negative impact this news has, and are heavily reconsidering the announcement based on the information they now have.
D) They are not dismantling Modern in any sense, nor are they disrespecting it, they did not expect this amount level of feedback.
2. The future of Modern
A) They have a minimum standard to expect a few decks of each archetype (3-4ish) (Combo, Aggro, Aggro-Control, Control)[Giving a total of 12 top tier decks] - They are disappointed they have not met this standard.
B) They want the Pro Tour format for the first of every block release to NOT be Modern.
C) They now understand that as stale as Modern is at some current stages, that people want it on the big stage - they are taking these comments to heart.
3. The Modern BANNED LIST
A) I asked Aaron's opinion on the current banned list, and gave him information about recent polls and we discussed 4 cards specifically;
- Bloodbraid Elf; this card comes up in discussion a lot, and is heavily debated within. I explained to him that most users on this website that argue for it's unbanning feel that it's fault is in the same vein as Wild Nacatl - he nodded as if it was a likely possibility.
- Golgari-Grave Troll; this card also comes up in discussion within, I received a very similar discussion compared to BBE.
- Preordain; An absolute no-no, I was told that tools blue decks have access to overall are strong enough for the format currently compared to most other colors (this hints towards a common sense of both color and archetype balance, and not one prioritizing over the other)
- Sword of the Meek; This card comes up in discussion quite a lot, the problem they fear is that it will shut the door down on Aggro permanently, I countered his argument stating that most users feel it's a combo deck that is more susceptible to massive hate and wins slower than Splinter-Twin. This gives us the notion that this card's unbanning will only happen when Aggro decks reach a supreme level and need to have a specific control deck in the meta to balance itself out.
Hey guys! I have some unfortunate news regarding the stream - the video was lost, nor am I able to retrieve the audio. There was a great amount of good discussion between Lantern and I, and some great questions that were asked. I will be doing a short video (hopefully only 30 minutes long) as a recap of last night to get the updates out there, and be editing the original post to follow suit.
UPDATE: August 5th
No response yet from Aaron about a formal interview, restreaming to update with video. Re-editing the original post in accordance to more detail.
Below is a link towards the recap of what was discussed last night;
This is by far one of the most informative, helpful, and interesting posts I have ever read on any Magic forum, let alone this one, let alone this subforum.
Hopefully this puts the doomsaying to rest.
Edit: Lantern here. Your info will stay, we ain't ganna close it. I think it clarifies a lot of points regarding the modern format as a whole. I'll give you my personal thanks for getting this info and sharing it.
This is good.
As in, something more detailed and informative than what can be mustered through a twitter tweet.
It does confirm the message I thought LaPille was trying to convey: they didn't want to artificially agitate the format with the banlist, a proposition they were facing primarily because they felt the format was too stagnant for their requirements.
To me this largely translates to "the banlist is in lockdown." If anyone was ever insecure about the stability of the format, this might as well be confirmation that they're not going to plan on slamming your newly foiled out Pod deck any time soon or whatever.
At least, that's how I'm reading into things.
I will be civil here, there's actual information to process.
Seems a little stupid given the modern tourni attendance that they would be surprised at the negative feedback. Also a little silly to just put the three gps right in a row as far across the globe as they could get them.
Let us know when and how the format interview goes.
interesting read. they've correctly identified problems with the format, but the way they're developing new sets does nothing to remedy those problems. shame about stoneforge though.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
A) They have a minimum standard to expect a few decks of each archetype (3-4ish) (Combo, Aggro, Aggro-Control, Control)[Giving a total of 12 top tier decks] - They are disappointed they have not met this standard.
this is an interesting expectation. you absolutely have to look beyond the first tier of decks and look into the tier 2 meta-crashers for this kind of expectation. even legacy would need this to find that many active decks.
but just from memory, at PTBNG we saw;
Blue Moon
Pod
UW/x control
Amulet of vigor
Tron
UR/G twin
GB/Jund
Affinity
Big Nacatl reliquary
Bogles
Scapeshift
Storm
thats a pretty long list of decks that are all viable in the format. sure, some of these are different iterations of similar strategies, but they play very differently.
there are also decks like UR delver (which is putting up fantastic stats right now), fish, hate bears, 8 rack, GB souls, Soul Sisters, Mono-red (which is doing REALLY well right now with eidolon), etc.
I think they just fail to assess the truth of the metagame.
"An absolute no-no, I was told that blue decks overall are too strong for the format currently compared to most other colors"
Don't know exactly how they come to that conclusion considering that BG/x has been the boogeyman for quite some time now and not anything with blue in it.
- Preordain; An absolute no-no, I was told that blue decks overall are too strong for the format currently compared to most other colors (this hints towards a common sense of both color and archetype balance, and not one prioritizing over the other)
Sounds like WotC is concerned mostly about the viability of aggro and midrange in Modern, and think different combo-ish decks dominate too much of the format (Pod, Storm, Amulet of Vigor, Tron, etc.).
They also seem to think that we need a few good decks in Modern in each mono-color. I suspect this was part of the reason they introduced devotion in Theros block, and have been pushing big dumb creatures lately in standard.
I have a feeling they're going to have to push a bit harder in terms of developing sets for where they want the Modern metagame to go if they want to fulfill such goals. One of the biggest stumbling blocks for midrange is the issue of creatures that don't pass the 'bolt test' and can't do anything about the average Goyf, which limits the number of viable creatures. For aggro, they appear to actually be making serious mistakes that are making things worse for where they seem to want the format to go, with the introduction of Anger of the Gods.
I'm glad to hear some confirmation that Wizard's believes that Modern is stale. I love the format, but it's definitely a little too combo-centric at this point. Combo should absolutely be a viable archetype, but it shouldn't be the viable archetype.
I'm certain I'm being overly optimistic, but I would love to interpet this is saying that going forward, they're going to be a little more liberal in terms of printing powerful cards that shake up the format. It's certainly possible to affect Modern without warping Standard; look no further than Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. Ironically, the first block designed with Modern in mind has probably had the least effect on the format of any, but I'm hoping that won't be the case with each block going forward.
I'm glad to hear some confirmation that Wizard's believes that Modern is stale. I love the format, but it's definitely a little too combo-centric at this point. Combo should absolutely be a viable archetype, but it shouldn't be the viable archetype.
I'm certain I'm being overly optimistic, but I would love to interpet this is saying that going forward, they're going to be a little more liberal in terms of printing powerful cards that shake up the format. It's certainly possible to affect Modern without warping Standard; look no further than Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. Ironically, the first block designed with Modern in mind has probably had the least effect on the format of any, but I'm hoping that won't be the case with each block going forward.
I actually sorta suspect they might go into a power push phase soon. I mean, done right it can make even the Standard seasons look amazing, and we'll be riding some major waves with good cards and a sorta implied promise not to get ruined by rapid bannings until they're ready to take a good look at what goes and stays for a showcase event.
At least, I hope so. I don't wanna take what they're saying to mean something wildly different or anything here, especially now that some more coherent words on the matter are being published.
Sounds like WotC is concerned mostly about the viability of aggro and midrange in Modern, and think different combo-ish decks dominate too much of the format (Pod, Storm, Amulet of Vigor, Tron, etc.).
They also seem to think that we need a few good decks in Modern in each mono-color. I suspect this was part of the reason they introduced devotion in Theros block, and have been pushing big dumb creatures lately in standard.
I have a feeling they're going to have to push a bit harder in terms of developing sets for where they want the Modern metagame to go if they want to fulfill such goals. One of the biggest stumbling blocks for midrange is the issue of creatures that don't pass the 'bolt test' and can't do anything about the average Goyf, which limits the number of viable creatures. For aggro, they appear to actually be making serious mistakes that are making things worse for where they seem to want the format to go, with the introduction of Anger of the Gods.
Why would they be concerned about midrange in Modern?
It is one of the best performing archetypes already if you look at BG/x and Melira Pod as a midrange deck with combo finish. Even Twin is more an UR value deck now then anything else.
Aggro and control are hurting really in Modern. There is only one Tier 1 deck of either of those archetypes present at the moment in form of UWR Control and Affinity.
First, thank you Shmanka. Second, while I am disappointed about Sword of the Meek and Green Sun's Zenith, I honestly didn't expect anything different from them on Preordain, Jace, and SFM. Third, I am happy that Wizards wants there to be more archetype diversity. Fourth, I am glad that they are reconsidering the Pro Tour decision.
Why would they be concerned about midrange in Modern?
It is one of the best performing archetypes already if you look at BG/x and Melira Pod as a midrange deck with combo finish. Even Twin is more an UR value deck now then anything else.
Aggro and control are hurting really in Modern. There is only one Tier 1 deck of either of those archetypes present at the moment in form of UWR Control and Affinity.[/quote]
This is true. There are many fringe aggro strategies, bogles,infect,zoo...etc but Affinity really is the most effective and consistent. I would really like to see control get some more love in cards that help us extend the game long enough to do something relevant.
- Preordain; An absolute no-no, I was told that blue decks overall are too strong for the format currently compared to most other colors (this hints towards a common sense of both color and archetype balance, and not one prioritizing over the other)
Was at a local event this weekend hear a lot of talk about preordain very similar to this. I had always figured preordain was the safer of the P&P combo to release. Guess not.
- Green Sun's Zenith, Jace, the Mindsculptor & Stoneforge Mystic ; they have a grave for themselves concerning Modern. They will be legal in Legacy.
Hope we can drop the discussion on these for a bit. Personally very happy Wotc sees it this way.
Quote from Sonicgundam »
this is an interesting expectation. you absolutely have to look beyond the first tier of decks and look into the tier 2 meta-crashers for this kind of expectation. even legacy would need this to find that many active decks.
but just from memory, at PTBNG we saw;
Blue Moon
Pod
UW/x control
Amulet of vigor
Tron
UR/G twin
GB/Jund
Affinity
Big Nacatl reliquary
Bogles
Scapeshift
Storm
thats a pretty long list of decks that are all viable in the format. sure, some of these are different iterations of similar strategies, but they play very differently.
there are also decks like UR delver (which is putting up fantastic stats right now), fish, hate bears, 8 rack, GB souls, Soul Sisters, Mono-red (which is doing REALLY well right now with eidolon), etc.
I think they just fail to assess the truth of the metagame.
But break down the types. How many aggro decks are there? are there more then 1? How many control decks are there? combo? mid range?
Having a bunch of decks is one thing, having diversity between types is quite another.
- Preordain; An absolute no-no, I was told that blue decks overall are too strong for the format currently compared to most other colors (this hints towards a common sense of both color and archetype balance, and not one prioritizing over the other)
Was at a local event this weekend hear a lot of talk about preordain very similar to this. I had always figured preordain was the safer of the P&P combo to release. Guess not.
While it is the safer one of those two, apparently Wizards isn't comfortable with any of them.
- Green Sun's Zenith, Jace, the Mindsculptor & Stoneforge Mystic ; they have a grave for themselves concerning Modern. They will be legal in Legacy.
Hope we can drop the discussion on these for a bit. Personally very happy Wotc sees it this way.
While I still think that GSZ would be safe, I understand his position on these.
Quote from Sonicgundam »
this is an interesting expectation. you absolutely have to look beyond the first tier of decks and look into the tier 2 meta-crashers for this kind of expectation. even legacy would need this to find that many active decks.
but just from memory, at PTBNG we saw;
Blue Moon
Pod
UW/x control
Amulet of vigor
Tron
UR/G twin
GB/Jund
Affinity
Big Nacatl reliquary
Bogles
Scapeshift
Storm
thats a pretty long list of decks that are all viable in the format. sure, some of these are different iterations of similar strategies, but they play very differently.
there are also decks like UR delver (which is putting up fantastic stats right now), fish, hate bears, 8 rack, GB souls, Soul Sisters, Mono-red (which is doing REALLY well right now with eidolon), etc.
I think they just fail to assess the truth of the metagame.
But break down the types. How many aggro decks are there? are there more then 1? How many control decks are there? combo? mid range?
Having a bunch of decks is one thing, having diversity between types is quite another.
Agreed. That list has much more combo and midrange than aggro and control.
I am glad bout the comments made and that they are listening to feedback (whether this is actually true remains to be seen but benefit of the doubt and all that).
I think a lot of the problem regarding Modern, the community and Wizards is actually a result of miscommunication. They seem to be considering a lot of deck that we all feel are midrange/value decks as "combo" decks, ie Pod/twin. I also dont kno where they r getting their results from, but U control decks are NOT dominating and its sad they think preordain is in-unbannable.
I am glad bout the comments made and that they are listening to feedback (whether this is actually true remains to be seen but benefit of the doubt and all that).
I think a lot of the problem regarding Modern, the community and Wizards is actually a result of miscommunication. They seem to be considering a lot of deck that we all feel are midrange/value decks as "combo" decks, ie Pod/twin. I also dont kno where they r getting their results from, but U control decks are NOT dominating and its sad they think preordain is in-unbannable.
As long as Twin is a top deck, Preordain won't be unbanned.
I dont believe uwr and affinity to be the top archetypes of the format either but I dont agree with the idea that blue-based decks are overpowered. Splinter Twin has not been the dominant archetype of modern and neither has UWR control or other blue-based decks. The meta wax's and wanes between splinter-twin, pod and b/g/x variants with a healthy dose of tier 2 decks as well.
All I have to say is "was that really so hard!?" They could have EASILY given a short blurb like that on the PT at one of the hundreds of points when there wasn't any matches going on. If there's any problem the community regularly has with wotc is their lack of communication with what they're really planning, thinking, etc. This is the sorta thing that we need to hear from them weather we agree or not with it. Thanks a ton for posting this!
EDIT: Also great to hear their thoughts on the more contentious cards on the banned list rather than "sure this looks ok I guess, I think." I also loved your retort on sword of the meek subject. It's not some anti aggro super control deck, it's as anti aggro as archangel + spike feeder is. Just like killing your opponent with 5 cards in their hand is "card advantage." As long as splinter twin is legal, sword is even more fine because of the knock-out hate.
Like seriously, this sort of thing just makes me feel a ton better about the format, and the game as a whole. Just knowing what they're actually thinking so I'm not worried about my favorite deck getting banned just for the lulz. This is way more important than version 500 of "here's why we made this obscure red common guys!"
WARNING; THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION ABOUT THE DISCUSSION I HAVE HAD WITH AARON, I HAVE ALSO BEEN GIVEN CONTACT INFORMATION TO SET UP A FORMAL INTERVIEW IN THE NEAR FUTURE.
1. The pro tour line up for the following year was a decision based on a few factors;
A) The Modern format was stale, they felt that was bad for the format.
B) It didn't display enough innovation.
C) They understand how much negative impact this news has, and are heavily reconsidering the announcement based on the information they now have.
D) They are not dismantling Modern in any sense, nor are they disrespecting it, they did not expect this amount level of feedback.
2. The future of Modern
A) They have a minimum standard to expect a few decks of each archetype (3-4ish) (Combo, Aggro, Aggro-Control, Control)[Giving a total of 12 top tier decks] - They are disappointed they have not met this standard.
B) They want the Pro Tour format for the first of every block release to NOT be Modern.
C) They now understand that as stale as Modern is at some current stages, that people want it on the big stage - they are taking these comments to heart.
3. The Modern BANNED LIST
A) I asked Aaron's opinion on the current banned list, and gave him information about recent polls and we discussed 4 cards specifically;
- Bloodbraid Elf; this card comes up in discussion a lot, and is heavily debated within. I explained to him that most users on this website that argue for it's unbanning feel that it's fault is in the same vein as Wild Nacatl - he nodded as if it was a likely possibility.
- Golgari-Grave Troll; this card also comes up in discussion within, I received a very similar discussion compared to BBE.
- Preordain; An absolute no-no, I was told that tools blue decks have access to overall are strong enough for the format currently compared to most other colors (this hints towards a common sense of both color and archetype balance, and not one prioritizing over the other)
- Sword of the Meek; This card comes up in discussion quite a lot, the problem they fear is that it will shut the door down on Aggro permanently, I countered his argument stating that most users feel it's a combo deck that is more susceptible to massive hate and wins slower than Splinter-Twin. This gives us the notion that this card's unbanning will only happen when Aggro decks reach a supreme level and need to have a specific control deck in the meta to balance itself out.
- Seething Song, Green Sun's Zenith, Jace, the Mindsculptor & Stoneforge Mystic ; they have a grave for themselves concerning Modern. They will be legal in Legacy.
I told him about our community, and some common concerns. I hope the Moderators can use this information to their benefit.
EDIT: Added GSZ, typo (I am currently using the Pro Tour Venue computers I apologize)
UPDATE: August 4th
https://twitter.com/PShmanka/status/496482274368819201
Hey guys! I have some unfortunate news regarding the stream - the video was lost, nor am I able to retrieve the audio. There was a great amount of good discussion between Lantern and I, and some great questions that were asked. I will be doing a short video (hopefully only 30 minutes long) as a recap of last night to get the updates out there, and be editing the original post to follow suit.
UPDATE: August 5th
No response yet from Aaron about a formal interview, restreaming to update with video. Re-editing the original post in accordance to more detail.
Below is a link towards the recap of what was discussed last night;
http://www.twitch.tv/nionradio/b/554819741
Update: August 8th
No email response from AF, will keep you all updated!
This is by far one of the most informative, helpful, and interesting posts I have ever read on any Magic forum, let alone this one, let alone this subforum.
Hopefully this puts the doomsaying to rest.
Edit: Lantern here. Your info will stay, we ain't ganna close it. I think it clarifies a lot of points regarding the modern format as a whole. I'll give you my personal thanks for getting this info and sharing it.
I linked this over to reddit (found here: http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2cjkg0/aaron_forythe_talked_about_new_protour_and_modern/) So people there can be notified. Go up vote it there if you can so we can spread the info.
As in, something more detailed and informative than what can be mustered through a twitter tweet.
It does confirm the message I thought LaPille was trying to convey: they didn't want to artificially agitate the format with the banlist, a proposition they were facing primarily because they felt the format was too stagnant for their requirements.
To me this largely translates to "the banlist is in lockdown." If anyone was ever insecure about the stability of the format, this might as well be confirmation that they're not going to plan on slamming your newly foiled out Pod deck any time soon or whatever.
At least, that's how I'm reading into things.
I will be civil here, there's actual information to process.
Let us know when and how the format interview goes.
this is an interesting expectation. you absolutely have to look beyond the first tier of decks and look into the tier 2 meta-crashers for this kind of expectation. even legacy would need this to find that many active decks.
but just from memory, at PTBNG we saw;
Blue Moon
Pod
UW/x control
Amulet of vigor
Tron
UR/G twin
GB/Jund
Affinity
Big Nacatl reliquary
Bogles
Scapeshift
Storm
thats a pretty long list of decks that are all viable in the format. sure, some of these are different iterations of similar strategies, but they play very differently.
there are also decks like UR delver (which is putting up fantastic stats right now), fish, hate bears, 8 rack, GB souls, Soul Sisters, Mono-red (which is doing REALLY well right now with eidolon), etc.
I think they just fail to assess the truth of the metagame.
Nothing
Modern:
Cruel Control, UR Delver, RUG midrange, Akroma's Elfmorial
EDH:
Animar, Chainer, Derevi the Stonehewer Mystic, Nekusar
This. A thousand times this please.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
EDH: Prime Speaker Zegana,
This one
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/567322-no-modern-pro-tour-in-2015
"An absolute no-no, I was told that blue decks overall are too strong for the format currently compared to most other colors"
Don't know exactly how they come to that conclusion considering that BG/x has been the boogeyman for quite some time now and not anything with blue in it.
This makes my heart hurt.
They also seem to think that we need a few good decks in Modern in each mono-color. I suspect this was part of the reason they introduced devotion in Theros block, and have been pushing big dumb creatures lately in standard.
I have a feeling they're going to have to push a bit harder in terms of developing sets for where they want the Modern metagame to go if they want to fulfill such goals. One of the biggest stumbling blocks for midrange is the issue of creatures that don't pass the 'bolt test' and can't do anything about the average Goyf, which limits the number of viable creatures. For aggro, they appear to actually be making serious mistakes that are making things worse for where they seem to want the format to go, with the introduction of Anger of the Gods.
I'm certain I'm being overly optimistic, but I would love to interpet this is saying that going forward, they're going to be a little more liberal in terms of printing powerful cards that shake up the format. It's certainly possible to affect Modern without warping Standard; look no further than Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. Ironically, the first block designed with Modern in mind has probably had the least effect on the format of any, but I'm hoping that won't be the case with each block going forward.
I actually sorta suspect they might go into a power push phase soon. I mean, done right it can make even the Standard seasons look amazing, and we'll be riding some major waves with good cards and a sorta implied promise not to get ruined by rapid bannings until they're ready to take a good look at what goes and stays for a showcase event.
At least, I hope so. I don't wanna take what they're saying to mean something wildly different or anything here, especially now that some more coherent words on the matter are being published.
Why would they be concerned about midrange in Modern?
It is one of the best performing archetypes already if you look at BG/x and Melira Pod as a midrange deck with combo finish. Even Twin is more an UR value deck now then anything else.
Aggro and control are hurting really in Modern. There is only one Tier 1 deck of either of those archetypes present at the moment in form of UWR Control and Affinity.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Why would they be concerned about midrange in Modern?
It is one of the best performing archetypes already if you look at BG/x and Melira Pod as a midrange deck with combo finish. Even Twin is more an UR value deck now then anything else.
Aggro and control are hurting really in Modern. There is only one Tier 1 deck of either of those archetypes present at the moment in form of UWR Control and Affinity.[/quote]
This is true. There are many fringe aggro strategies, bogles,infect,zoo...etc but Affinity really is the most effective and consistent. I would really like to see control get some more love in cards that help us extend the game long enough to do something relevant.
Was at a local event this weekend hear a lot of talk about preordain very similar to this. I had always figured preordain was the safer of the P&P combo to release. Guess not.
Hope we can drop the discussion on these for a bit. Personally very happy Wotc sees it this way.
But break down the types. How many aggro decks are there? are there more then 1? How many control decks are there? combo? mid range?
Having a bunch of decks is one thing, having diversity between types is quite another.
While it is the safer one of those two, apparently Wizards isn't comfortable with any of them.
While I still think that GSZ would be safe, I understand his position on these.
Agreed. That list has much more combo and midrange than aggro and control.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I think a lot of the problem regarding Modern, the community and Wizards is actually a result of miscommunication. They seem to be considering a lot of deck that we all feel are midrange/value decks as "combo" decks, ie Pod/twin. I also dont kno where they r getting their results from, but U control decks are NOT dominating and its sad they think preordain is in-unbannable.
As long as Twin is a top deck, Preordain won't be unbanned.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
EDIT: Also great to hear their thoughts on the more contentious cards on the banned list rather than "sure this looks ok I guess, I think." I also loved your retort on sword of the meek subject. It's not some anti aggro super control deck, it's as anti aggro as archangel + spike feeder is. Just like killing your opponent with 5 cards in their hand is "card advantage." As long as splinter twin is legal, sword is even more fine because of the knock-out hate.
Like seriously, this sort of thing just makes me feel a ton better about the format, and the game as a whole. Just knowing what they're actually thinking so I'm not worried about my favorite deck getting banned just for the lulz. This is way more important than version 500 of "here's why we made this obscure red common guys!"
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.