I've been out of Modern (and MtG as a whole) for a little bit. I'm back, good news.
I haven't noticed anyone playing any of the Swords of X & X, anymore. Why is that? Are the swords no good? What happened to make them unplayable / less-played?
Fire and Ice & Feast and Famine are pretty widely played in Faeries, and a few Junk decks run Light and Shadow. There are alternate BW Tokens builds which run Squadron Hawk and Swords over some of the anthems. Most of the Aggro decks like Affinity and Zoo are too fast to tap out for a Sword, and Merfolk's list is too tight to find space.
The format has slightly shifted, as opposed to playing a sword on turn three most people are readying deciever exarch and splinter twin hate for the end of turn flash.
As stated earlier, Light and Shadow sees play in sideboards of Junk builds as does Feast and Famine. Fire and Ice is a big threat when it's played. The others just aren't typically powerful enough (War and Peace and Body and Mind). It's a heavy investment as without Stoneforge Mystic you're typically investing in a 5-mana turn that requires a creature. I never find myself willing to play my sword without being capable of equipping it in the same turn and most modern decks can't afford to do that.
If you play a midrange deck and have found yourself in a comfortable board state, a sword is a good way to close the game.
I've been out of Modern (and MtG as a whole) for a little bit. I'm back, good news.
I haven't noticed anyone playing any of the Swords of X & X, anymore. Why is that? Are the swords no good? What happened to make them unplayable / less-played?
You need to have a lot of bodies to carry the swords. Otherwise, you could find yourself in a situation where you have a sword without something to equip it to and its completely useless. Furthermore, decks that are playing lots of creatures can't necessarily use a sword because they would rather play as many threats as possible.
For the same reason Isochron Scepter is nonexistent: Abrupt Decay.
Okay, that's a pretty simplistic response. There are many other reasons for Isochron not being played and other reasons that Swords aren't being played, but there are similarities. Both require an investment that can be undone with a commonly played removal spell, and they're both artifacts, so they catch some collateral Affinity hate as well.
There have been many solid reasons offered in this thread. It's unfortunate, because I think the Swords are great and would be an awesome part of the meta.
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In addition to Abrupt Decay hitting the swords themselves, there is too much good instant speed removal around that's always being played in response to the equip. Before I gave them up, I found myself paying the three mana for the sword and then the equip cost two, three times before the sword would stick on something. They're simply too slow.
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In addition to Abrupt Decay hitting the swords themselves, there is too much good instant speed removal around that's always being played in response to the equip. Before I gave them up, I found myself paying the three mana for the sword and then the equip cost two, three times before the sword would stick on something. They're simply too slow.
Precisely for this reason you usually have to be able to equip in the same turn you play, which means you need to be able to swing with it in that turn as well. And this can be hard to set up.
the short answer: stoneforge mystic is banned in the format
you can read all the posts above & while there is a modicum of truth in them, SFM being banned is the real reason the swords dont see play. legacy is arguably a faster format, it also has access to abrupt decay & even better instant speed removal in the form of StP & yet swords x & y still see play in that format.
Fire and Ice is a big threat when it's played. The others just aren't typically powerful enough (War and Peace and Body and Mind).
I've generally thought that Sword of War and Peace is the best sword in Modern because it grants protection against the formats most common removal spells, Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt. Things have started to change a bit since the banning of Deathrite Shaman, with black removal becoming more commonly played.
The protection from blue of Sword of Fire and Ice is far less relevant than in legacy than in modern, and as a result Sword of Fire and Ice doesn't see that much play in modern.
Fire and Ice is a big threat when it's played. The others just aren't typically powerful enough (War and Peace and Body and Mind).
I've generally thought that Sword of War and Peace is the best sword in Modern because it grants protection against the formats most common removal spells, Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt. Things have started to change a bit since the banning of Deathrite Shaman, with black removal becoming more commonly played.
The protection from blue of Sword of Fire and Ice is far less relevant than in legacy than in modern, and as a result Sword of Fire and Ice doesn't see that much play in modern.
Protecting from Bolt doesn't really matter since the toughness boost of the swords usually does that anyways. Because of this Sword of Light and Shadow grants the best protections.
Protecting from Bolt doesn't really matter since the toughness boost of the swords usually does that anyways. Because of this Sword of Light and Shadow grants the best protections.
Good point, although there are a fair number of X/1s in the format that are still vulnerable to Lightning Bolt/Firespout/Anger of the Gods even with a sword equipped.
I certainly agree now that Sword of Light and Shadow provides the best protections with Lightning Bolt being played less and black removal played more.
the short answer: stoneforge mystic is banned in the format
you can read all the posts above & while there is a modicum of truth in them, SFM being banned is the real reason the swords dont see play. legacy is arguably a faster format, it also has access to abrupt decay & even better instant speed removal in the form of StP & yet swords x & y still see play in that format.
Interesting, watched quite a bit of coverage for SCG and rarely see SFM get a sword, its batterskull the majority of time.
the short answer: stoneforge mystic is banned in the format
you can read all the posts above & while there is a modicum of truth in them, SFM being banned is the real reason the swords dont see play. legacy is arguably a faster format, it also has access to abrupt decay & even better instant speed removal in the form of StP & yet swords x & y still see play in that format.
Interesting, watched quite a bit of coverage for SCG and rarely see SFM get a sword, its batterskull the majority of time.
Or Jitte. But still, some decks run them. Sword of Fire and Ice in particular sees play because it lets your creatures get past True-Name Nemesis.
Its such a shame. I really like the Swords. I like everything about them. I even like the fact that most people still disagree on which is the most powerful, and how the most powerful shifts depending on the Meta. At one point Body and Mind was strongest because of the blue/green protections for things like Faeries and Tarmogoyf. They have all seen play and have all been considered strong. I'm just sad that they aren't a thing anymore. I hope the Meta shifts and they come back.
Its such a shame. I really like the Swords. I like everything about them. I even like the fact that most people still disagree on which is the most powerful, and how the most powerful shifts depending on the Meta. At one point Body and Mind was strongest because of the blue/green protections for things like Faeries and Tarmogoyf. They have all seen play and have all been considered strong. I'm just sad that they aren't a thing anymore. I hope the Meta shifts and they come back.
I actually have shifted back and forth with running body and mind. And while blue is not typically something you need protection from, pro-green is great and the token that gets left behind has been an invaluable chump blocker in a few games for me. The strength of swords is still undeniable, if you connect with them it's going to advance you to a high spot no matter which you're running. Their fragility and requirements for success are what make them too much of a liability in many matches.
the short answer: stoneforge mystic is banned in the format
you can read all the posts above & while there is a modicum of truth in them, SFM being banned is the real reason the swords dont see play. legacy is arguably a faster format, it also has access to abrupt decay & even better instant speed removal in the form of StP & yet swords x & y still see play in that format.
Interesting, watched quite a bit of coverage for SCG and rarely see SFM get a sword, its batterskull the majority of time.
Actually his point is a good one. The simple unbanning of Stoneforge Mystic in Modern would make Swords "suddenly playable." Sure, Batterskull would see more play too because a 4/4 Lifelink Vigilance for 2 is a great deal, but Swords are where the card advantage happens. Batterskull, while amazing, is just a horribly undercosted beater and race-winner (admittedly demolishes some decks). Right now, they're just too slow like the others have said.
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If Stoneforge Mystic was unbanned, we would probably see some form of Modern Caw Blade or Stoneblade running swords. As it stands, they're too slow. Even the decks that use Batterskull are pushing it, as while it does come with a body, it costs 5 and can be broken for R.
of course, jitte & batterskull are the defacto targets of choice, i actually meant equipment by & large arent being played in modern b/c SFM is banned. i only said sword x & y b/c thats what the orignial poster was asking & i was just keeping my comments in line w/ his question; i didnt want to hijack his thread
I think there are plenty of decks grindy enough that would be able to get plenty of advantage out of a Sword, so I don't think that they're just flat-out too slow. I think the more immediate problem is that the removal is too good and varied for them to be reliable. Even if you're able to get a Sword equipped without responses, the playable/played removal spans enough colors that the opponent can often still kill it somehow (I'm sort of counting Goyf here, since he easily gets big enough to fight most Sword-carriers). Even with the toughness boost, Bolt-Snap-Bolt is still a pretty common thing.
As far as which Sword is best (i.e. you have 1 slot, which do you run), because I'm bored enough:
In a vacuum, Fire & Ice is best. Blue and red are always popular colors, and it says "draw a card."
In a wide-open Modern field, I would go with Feast & Famine. It's most likely to give you protection from an entire deck's removal if it sticks, and against a deck that gives you time to make the card advantage matter. Getting past green blockers is also a big deal.
In certain metas, War & Peace is up there with the others. If you expect UWR to be a big thing, this blanks all their removal and makes chump blocking with Snapcaster or Clique the only real option. The control decks also like to draw cards a lot, so the trigger can add up some damage quick. If that deck becomes as big as BGx decks have been before, then W&P should see a lot more play.
As you can probably tell from that, they more or less add up to sideboard choices against certain decks, where you can expect a Sword that sticks to win the game by blanking all the opponent's cards. They're not good enough to main deck, because any other opponent could just kill your guy anyway or play a bigger Goyf.
What are the prevailing thoughts on Rancor in comparison to the swords? In some ways it fills the same slots that a sword might, but at a much cheaper mana cost, reducing the tempo issues that we see with the swords.
Along the same lines, what are thoughts regarding Basilisk Collar?
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Here's my thoughts: In my mind a sword is a means of landing something that will win you the game or bring you out of losing the game if it makes contact, that's the reason for considering running a sword even with all of the many reasons not to.
Rancor is mostly a means of getting damage through that you otherwise couldn't guarantee. Bogle decks want a way to make sure that a card like LS won't stop them from getting through, so it's very worthwhile there since they have one creature that is going to be a massive threat. Jund/Junk don't want it because they're looking for value creatures, plural, to get through and pave a way to victory via discard and removal. Perhaps a Knight of the Reliquary could benefit but they really don't have anything to take out that would warrant playing it. Zoo decks that are worried about getting through pack removal or run Kessig Wolf Run to secure it.
Basilisk Collar is a good card and I love it in EDH (I run it with Ruric-Thar, the Unbowed) but I don't think it has a place in modern. You have to think: what creature would I put this on and how is it going to help me win the game? That's really what all equipment comes down to. Basilisk Collar doesn't have an "I win" factor in it so it's not worth the mana investment (even if it's a low mana investment comparatively. The only non-winning equipment I can think of is Manriki-Gusari which sees play in legacy due to the presence of Stoneforge Mystic, so it's beneficial there.
I haven't noticed anyone playing any of the Swords of X & X, anymore. Why is that? Are the swords no good? What happened to make them unplayable / less-played?
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That being said they are played in certain mid range builds and see spots in side boards.
If you play a midrange deck and have found yourself in a comfortable board state, a sword is a good way to close the game.
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You need to have a lot of bodies to carry the swords. Otherwise, you could find yourself in a situation where you have a sword without something to equip it to and its completely useless. Furthermore, decks that are playing lots of creatures can't necessarily use a sword because they would rather play as many threats as possible.
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Okay, that's a pretty simplistic response. There are many other reasons for Isochron not being played and other reasons that Swords aren't being played, but there are similarities. Both require an investment that can be undone with a commonly played removal spell, and they're both artifacts, so they catch some collateral Affinity hate as well.
There have been many solid reasons offered in this thread. It's unfortunate, because I think the Swords are great and would be an awesome part of the meta.
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Precisely for this reason you usually have to be able to equip in the same turn you play, which means you need to be able to swing with it in that turn as well. And this can be hard to set up.
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you can read all the posts above & while there is a modicum of truth in them, SFM being banned is the real reason the swords dont see play. legacy is arguably a faster format, it also has access to abrupt decay & even better instant speed removal in the form of StP & yet swords x & y still see play in that format.
I've generally thought that Sword of War and Peace is the best sword in Modern because it grants protection against the formats most common removal spells, Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt. Things have started to change a bit since the banning of Deathrite Shaman, with black removal becoming more commonly played.
The protection from blue of Sword of Fire and Ice is far less relevant than in legacy than in modern, and as a result Sword of Fire and Ice doesn't see that much play in modern.
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Protecting from Bolt doesn't really matter since the toughness boost of the swords usually does that anyways. Because of this Sword of Light and Shadow grants the best protections.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Good point, although there are a fair number of X/1s in the format that are still vulnerable to Lightning Bolt/Firespout/Anger of the Gods even with a sword equipped.
I certainly agree now that Sword of Light and Shadow provides the best protections with Lightning Bolt being played less and black removal played more.
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Interesting, watched quite a bit of coverage for SCG and rarely see SFM get a sword, its batterskull the majority of time.
Or Jitte. But still, some decks run them. Sword of Fire and Ice in particular sees play because it lets your creatures get past True-Name Nemesis.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
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I actually have shifted back and forth with running body and mind. And while blue is not typically something you need protection from, pro-green is great and the token that gets left behind has been an invaluable chump blocker in a few games for me. The strength of swords is still undeniable, if you connect with them it's going to advance you to a high spot no matter which you're running. Their fragility and requirements for success are what make them too much of a liability in many matches.
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Actually his point is a good one. The simple unbanning of Stoneforge Mystic in Modern would make Swords "suddenly playable." Sure, Batterskull would see more play too because a 4/4 Lifelink Vigilance for 2 is a great deal, but Swords are where the card advantage happens. Batterskull, while amazing, is just a horribly undercosted beater and race-winner (admittedly demolishes some decks). Right now, they're just too slow like the others have said.
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As far as which Sword is best (i.e. you have 1 slot, which do you run), because I'm bored enough:
In a vacuum, Fire & Ice is best. Blue and red are always popular colors, and it says "draw a card."
In a wide-open Modern field, I would go with Feast & Famine. It's most likely to give you protection from an entire deck's removal if it sticks, and against a deck that gives you time to make the card advantage matter. Getting past green blockers is also a big deal.
In certain metas, War & Peace is up there with the others. If you expect UWR to be a big thing, this blanks all their removal and makes chump blocking with Snapcaster or Clique the only real option. The control decks also like to draw cards a lot, so the trigger can add up some damage quick. If that deck becomes as big as BGx decks have been before, then W&P should see a lot more play.
As you can probably tell from that, they more or less add up to sideboard choices against certain decks, where you can expect a Sword that sticks to win the game by blanking all the opponent's cards. They're not good enough to main deck, because any other opponent could just kill your guy anyway or play a bigger Goyf.
Along the same lines, what are thoughts regarding Basilisk Collar?
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Rancor is mostly a means of getting damage through that you otherwise couldn't guarantee. Bogle decks want a way to make sure that a card like LS won't stop them from getting through, so it's very worthwhile there since they have one creature that is going to be a massive threat. Jund/Junk don't want it because they're looking for value creatures, plural, to get through and pave a way to victory via discard and removal. Perhaps a Knight of the Reliquary could benefit but they really don't have anything to take out that would warrant playing it. Zoo decks that are worried about getting through pack removal or run Kessig Wolf Run to secure it.
Basilisk Collar is a good card and I love it in EDH (I run it with Ruric-Thar, the Unbowed) but I don't think it has a place in modern. You have to think: what creature would I put this on and how is it going to help me win the game? That's really what all equipment comes down to. Basilisk Collar doesn't have an "I win" factor in it so it's not worth the mana investment (even if it's a low mana investment comparatively. The only non-winning equipment I can think of is Manriki-Gusari which sees play in legacy due to the presence of Stoneforge Mystic, so it's beneficial there.
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