I always find i amusing when people complain about modern beeing bad/linear or whatever.
Yesterday i played in a Standard PPTQ at my LGS. It was the first and for sure the last time i've played that format. 10 out of my 12 games started with me facing a turn 1 Thraben Inspector into t2 Copter into open mana for a turn 3 Spell Queller or a Depala. There where literally no decks that weren't UW Flash, Copter Madness or some sort of Vehicles beside me and two of my friends playing interactive UR or Jund decks. I was so happy dropping at 1-3 after round 4 to get to the sideevents and most people agreed with me that modern is miles better than boring Copter-Standard.
Yeah, from what I've heard, Standard isn't all that great right now. Then again, I think the last time Standard was particularly good was Innistrad-RTR and it's largely been downhill ever since.
If you look at legacy on the other hand, Blue is dominating the whole format. The decks may vary and there are looots of options but typicsally all you face at tournaments are Storm/Reanimator Combo, Miracles, Eldrazi, D&T and the various flavours of Delver. Everyone is throwing around Dazes and Brainstorms or trying to lock you out of your own gameplay. You either play blue or better have another dirty trick.
Blue dominates Legacy to an annoying extent. That said, I think you're overexaggerating the effect that has on diversity. There's a lot of Blue, but there's a lot of different kinds of decks within that color. I'm not sure what the "dirty trick" reference is supposed to be. All decks in Legacy are filled with "dirty tricks," it's the nature of the format that you're doing that sort of thing.
Loosing on T1 before you even get to draw a single card happens quite often and still you rarely hear any complaints about it because its a great and fun format even due to its "colour linearity".
Want to know why you rarely hear any complaints about losing on turn 1 before you get to draw a card? Because contrary to your assertion, it doesn't "happen quite often." It's actually extremely rare. I've been playing Legacy for years and that's happened to me, in all that time... maybe twice. And that isn't really a point in Modern's favor, either, as that's happened to be in that format also.
Modern is by far the most fun and diverse format. As others have mentioned, its the players that make the format "worse" not the cards available. Linear decks like Infect/Suicide Zoo etc. do only well against a field of other linear/ramp decks. Interactive decks on the other hand can do much better than the latest results may indicate and are just underplayed due to many people try to take the easier way and play Infect/Titan Breach or whatever. If my LGS would only consist of Suicide/Infect/Affinity/Reanimator, i would be happily sleeving up Delver each weekend.
But metagames don't exist of only those decks. It's "diverse" but only in the sense that there's so many different decks to prepare for you can't do it all and just have to hope the matchup roulette works in your favor. Legacy also has the bad/good matchup but it doesn't feel like as much as a hopeless battle in general.
Also, I've never been a fan of "these decks could do better, but people are just lazy!" Ignoring that being a speculation, even if that's the case... then that's the case! It still means those decks aren't doing well.
Finally, saying the other formats are bad doesn't make Modern good, it just means it's not as bad.
Also, I've never been a fan of "these decks could do better, but people are just lazy!" Ignoring that being a speculation, even if that's the case... then that's the case! It still means those decks aren't doing well.
Ugh, this. I knew it was going to happen when he top 8'd and even called it on the banned list thread, but I've had people arguing with me about Grixis Control ever since Corey Burkhart top 8'd the GP with it. He's literally the only person who's seen success with the deck in the past year. A bunch of people picked up the deck after his top 8 and are discovering what I discovered about it earlier this year: the deck can't keep up with the stronger decks in Modern and has some serious flaws. I really wish it was good enough, but it's not.
And another thing, you never hear people say, "Infect could do better, but the pilots are just lazy." Powerful decks will be powerful and put up results. If you're saying a deck isn't doing well enough because the pilots aren't good enough, maybe the deck is just not powerful enough?
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I do agree with this for the most part, but obviously you have to consider how many people play the deck as well. In a Grand Prix of 1500 players, with 2 people on Grixis Control and 100 people on Infect, it's going to be at least 50 times more likely for Infect to do as well or better. I'm not saying that Grixis is on Infect's level, but it's not as "far off" as people think. The differences in Modern decks is often very little.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I do agree with this for the most part, but obviously you have to consider how many people play the deck as well. In a Grand Prix of 1500 players, with 2 people on Grixis Control and 100 people on Infect, it's going to be at least 50 times more likely for Infect to do as well or better. I'm not saying that Grixis is on Infect's level, but it's not as "far off" as people think. The differences in Modern decks is often very little.
Keep in mind, he also dodged most (or all) of his bad matchups, according to reports of his pairings. Which paints a very accurate picture of Grixis: as long as you aren't paired up with Dredge or Eldrazi and your Valakut or Tron opponent stumbles, you'll have a great time. Problem is that these 4 decks combine for a large portion of top tier decks.
I do agree with this for the most part, but obviously you have to consider how many people play the deck as well. In a Grand Prix of 1500 players, with 2 people on Grixis Control and 100 people on Infect, it's going to be at least 50 times more likely for Infect to do as well or better. I'm not saying that Grixis is on Infect's level, but it's not as "far off" as people think. The differences in Modern decks is often very little.
Keep in mind, he also dodged most (or all) of his bad matchups, according to reports of his pairings. Which paints a very accurate picture of Grixis: as long as you aren't paired up with Dredge or Eldrazi and your Valakut or Tron opponent stumbles, you'll have a great time. Problem is that these 4 decks combine for a large portion of top tier decks.
Yeah, this is exactly what happened. Grixis is a fine deck with some strong interactions, but it's stone dead to multiple tier 1 decks, and that's why it's bad in this environment. The same is true of other blue control and midrange decks too. They can't survive in a field with so much Dredge, Valakut, Tron, and Bant Eldrazi. It used to just be Tron oppressing the blue decks, now there's like 4 or 5 decks doing it.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I can try to ask Corey more when I see him, since he is fairly local. The problem is that whereas people hear my "I'm doing okay" at FNM at 4-1, Corey will say "I'm doing okay" at a Grand Prix at 9-0 or 8-1. He can be overly critical of himself, while he has made fine decisions and amazing plays.
I've seen a downtick in Titanshift to nearly 1%, while Breach has stayed somewhat strong at 3.5%. Tron can be dodged. Dredge and Bant won't be dodged, but the matchups are not unwinnable. Grixis Control has some tools to win (Surgical Extraction and ScM), so it's possible that his outplaying his opponents and a bit of luck got him
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I can try to ask Corey more when I see him, since he is fairly local. The problem is that whereas people hear my "I'm doing okay" at FNM at 4-1, Corey will say "I'm doing okay" at a Grand Prix at 9-0 or 8-1. He can be overly critical of himself, while he has made fine decisions and amazing plays.
I've seen a downtick in Titanshift to nearly 1%, while Breach has stayed somewhat strong at 3.5%. Tron can be dodged. Dredge and Bant won't be dodged, but the matchups are not unwinnable. Grixis Control has some tools to win (Surgical Extraction and ScM), so it's possible that his outplaying his opponents and a bit of luck got him
Strong decks historically see lots of play. Grixis is not a strong deck in today's meta at all. The people who play it are people who are passionately (or stubbornly) tied to those colors and that kind of gameplay. Nobody is playing and expecting to win events (which Cory has said himself in interviews).
Strong decks historically see lots of play. Grixis is not a strong deck in today's meta at all. The people who play it are people who are passionately (or stubbornly) tied to those colors and that kind of gameplay. Nobody is playing and expecting to win events (which Cory has said himself in interviews).
Yes, I agree with this. I think this is a point that a lot of people don't understand when they fire back at those of us that are vocal about blue decks being bad right now. You can have some success with a deck like Grixis Control or Jeskai Nahiri, but people aren't playing those decks because they are powerful decks that are also well positioned in the meta. People are playing them because they like blue control decks and those are the best choices available. No one sits down and says, "What's the best deck to win the next Modern GP? I know! It's Grixis Control!" I think I can speak for all of us blue players when I say that we aren't playing these decks because we think they're good competitive choices, it's because we like this style of deck. What blue players want is for the blue decks to be good enough where someone who wants to spike a GP might have a blue deck in their list of the ~5 best decks. Like what we had when Twin was legal.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Since Modern Nexus has not updated their metagame numbers in several months, what do you all use? I have been looking at MTG Goldfish. What do you think of their numbers?
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Now Playing Modern RUBW Affinity BGR Midrange UWR Control RG Titan Shift RW Burn GW Bogles G Tron
Since Modern Nexus has not updated their metagame numbers in several months, what do you all use? I have been looking at MTG Goldfish. What do you think of their numbers?
I don't know, but this is getting ridiculous. MN said over Twitter they'd be working all weekend on the update. That was last Friday and now it's Thursday, nearly a week later. Are they trying to ruin their reputation?
Since Modern Nexus has not updated their metagame numbers in several months, what do you all use? I have been looking at MTG Goldfish. What do you think of their numbers?
I don't know, but this is getting ridiculous. MN said over Twitter they'd be working all weekend on the update. That was last Friday and now it's Thursday, nearly a week later. Are they trying to ruin their reputation?
I'd make the argument they already have. I don't even bother going to their site to see their new article each day because I think it's going to be just some trash article about Jordan or Trevor's new dumbest brew. They are literally no analytical pieces any more on there. To be honest, even before ktkenshinx left I had stopped reading most of the articles besides his.
It's nearly 2017 and the Modern Nexus format update is still from September. I have a feeling we'll get a Damnation reprint before we get another one. If they're not going to do them anymore, they should just state that on their site. And if they are going to continue, they need to actually DO them.
It's nearly 2017 and the Modern Nexus format update is still from September. I have a feeling we'll get a Damnation reprint before we get another one. If they're not going to do them anymore, they should just state that on their site. And if they are going to continue, they need to actually DO them.
Did you email/tweet them? I'd be surprised if someone doesn't reply.
Agreed, whats the owner of MN doing? It's all invalid now
As a content producer, I will tell you how problematic and unfair this kind of attitude is. I know the author, Jason, has been working very hard to get this out, entering and reviewing December data, writing an article, and pushing to get it published ASAP this week after numerous requests. Although he should definitely have published the October and November ones earlier (his fault and I'm not defending that), he cannot now be faulted for producing this analysis on schedule and as requested and then getting sideswiped (like everyone else) by a surprise Wizards unbanning. Even when I did the updates, we NEVER published a metagame update earlier than the second week of the following month.
The update will still be valuable because it shows what the format looked like before the changes. This is the starting point for the post-update metagame, which has always been valuable even in the face of major changes.
Yeah you cant blame them for updating when Wizards pushed an early update, and regardless it does matter as a snapshot of what we faced before.
32% linear strategy (Infect, Burn, Affinity, Dredge, Deaths Shadow) and both Lantern AND Eldrazi in the top 10 (lantern?!) bleh.
I don't think the bans will do much to change that 32% number, linear aggro decks are still the best option in face of discard/removal heavy BGx decks. Its slightly funny that part of the reasoning behind the probe ban was not affording the opportunity to sequence your spells wrong, because discard spells like Iok and Thoughtseize promote the same type of game play. I can't bait you into terminating creature a when you know I have creature b. This is why I'm a bigger fan of good counterspells you can often bait a player into countering the lesser of two spells with how you sequence your plays can't really do that in modern.
Someone just sent me this message about Jund/Junk, and honestly, the banmania attitude really scares me,
"Even with people in my area swapping new lilliana out for old liliana to test just in case she gets banned. Still at least 2 jund/junk decks make top 8.
Jund is the only tier .5 deck in modern right now. It definitely needs to be hit. Too many options for kill spells to hit those, creatueas are perfectly fine, its lilina of the veil that brings it from a tier 1 to a tier .5 deck. that card definitely needs a ban to allow the modern format to thrive with new stratagies.
I know you highly disagree, but i have been in this format since the beginning and have top 4 with pretty much every deck. Hitting lotv is the best option to bring jund/junk into check right now. If they keep hitting everything else down jund will be a tier 0 deck."
Like, seriously, are we just going to ban everything?
I agree with the GGT ban, and while the probe ban makes me sad, I see the rationale and logic behind it, and it does hurt things like Become immense in the process
But having people clamor for more bans is scary
Jund and Junk are a pile of good cards, and they could survive some bans, but I'm not sure the decks could survive if LOTV or Goyf were banned
Agreed, whats the owner of MN doing? It's all invalid now
As a content producer, I will tell you how problematic and unfair this kind of attitude is. I know the author, Jason, has been working very hard to get this out, entering and reviewing December data, writing an article, and pushing to get it published ASAP this week after numerous requests. Although he should definitely have published the October and November ones earlier (his fault and I'm not defending that), he cannot now be faulted for producing this analysis on schedule and as requested and then getting sideswiped (like everyone else) by a surprise Wizards unbanning. Even when I did the updates, we NEVER published a metagame update earlier than the second week of the following month.
The update will still be valuable because it shows what the format looked like before the changes. This is the starting point for the post-update metagame, which has always been valuable even in the face of major changes.
Fair enough. He did work hard on the data. It's just frustrating not to have the data in general
How is the metagame update invalid after the bans?
Did the bans change what happend in December?
It's great to have it up to see what the meta looked like in December, before the bans, and from next month on we'll be able to see how thing changed after the ban. If we only had September metagame and January onwards, it wouldn't be a realistic comparsion.
Yeah, from what I've heard, Standard isn't all that great right now. Then again, I think the last time Standard was particularly good was Innistrad-RTR and it's largely been downhill ever since.
Blue dominates Legacy to an annoying extent. That said, I think you're overexaggerating the effect that has on diversity. There's a lot of Blue, but there's a lot of different kinds of decks within that color. I'm not sure what the "dirty trick" reference is supposed to be. All decks in Legacy are filled with "dirty tricks," it's the nature of the format that you're doing that sort of thing.
Want to know why you rarely hear any complaints about losing on turn 1 before you get to draw a card? Because contrary to your assertion, it doesn't "happen quite often." It's actually extremely rare. I've been playing Legacy for years and that's happened to me, in all that time... maybe twice. And that isn't really a point in Modern's favor, either, as that's happened to be in that format also.
But metagames don't exist of only those decks. It's "diverse" but only in the sense that there's so many different decks to prepare for you can't do it all and just have to hope the matchup roulette works in your favor. Legacy also has the bad/good matchup but it doesn't feel like as much as a hopeless battle in general.
Also, I've never been a fan of "these decks could do better, but people are just lazy!" Ignoring that being a speculation, even if that's the case... then that's the case! It still means those decks aren't doing well.
Finally, saying the other formats are bad doesn't make Modern good, it just means it's not as bad.
Ugh, this. I knew it was going to happen when he top 8'd and even called it on the banned list thread, but I've had people arguing with me about Grixis Control ever since Corey Burkhart top 8'd the GP with it. He's literally the only person who's seen success with the deck in the past year. A bunch of people picked up the deck after his top 8 and are discovering what I discovered about it earlier this year: the deck can't keep up with the stronger decks in Modern and has some serious flaws. I really wish it was good enough, but it's not.
And another thing, you never hear people say, "Infect could do better, but the pilots are just lazy." Powerful decks will be powerful and put up results. If you're saying a deck isn't doing well enough because the pilots aren't good enough, maybe the deck is just not powerful enough?
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Keep in mind, he also dodged most (or all) of his bad matchups, according to reports of his pairings. Which paints a very accurate picture of Grixis: as long as you aren't paired up with Dredge or Eldrazi and your Valakut or Tron opponent stumbles, you'll have a great time. Problem is that these 4 decks combine for a large portion of top tier decks.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Yeah, this is exactly what happened. Grixis is a fine deck with some strong interactions, but it's stone dead to multiple tier 1 decks, and that's why it's bad in this environment. The same is true of other blue control and midrange decks too. They can't survive in a field with so much Dredge, Valakut, Tron, and Bant Eldrazi. It used to just be Tron oppressing the blue decks, now there's like 4 or 5 decks doing it.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I've seen a downtick in Titanshift to nearly 1%, while Breach has stayed somewhat strong at 3.5%. Tron can be dodged. Dredge and Bant won't be dodged, but the matchups are not unwinnable. Grixis Control has some tools to win (Surgical Extraction and ScM), so it's possible that his outplaying his opponents and a bit of luck got him
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Strong decks historically see lots of play. Grixis is not a strong deck in today's meta at all. The people who play it are people who are passionately (or stubbornly) tied to those colors and that kind of gameplay. Nobody is playing and expecting to win events (which Cory has said himself in interviews).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Yes, I agree with this. I think this is a point that a lot of people don't understand when they fire back at those of us that are vocal about blue decks being bad right now. You can have some success with a deck like Grixis Control or Jeskai Nahiri, but people aren't playing those decks because they are powerful decks that are also well positioned in the meta. People are playing them because they like blue control decks and those are the best choices available. No one sits down and says, "What's the best deck to win the next Modern GP? I know! It's Grixis Control!" I think I can speak for all of us blue players when I say that we aren't playing these decks because we think they're good competitive choices, it's because we like this style of deck. What blue players want is for the blue decks to be good enough where someone who wants to spike a GP might have a blue deck in their list of the ~5 best decks. Like what we had when Twin was legal.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Modern
RUBW Affinity
BGR Midrange
UWR Control
RG Titan Shift
RW Burn
GW Bogles
G Tron
I don't know, but this is getting ridiculous. MN said over Twitter they'd be working all weekend on the update. That was last Friday and now it's Thursday, nearly a week later. Are they trying to ruin their reputation?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I'd make the argument they already have. I don't even bother going to their site to see their new article each day because I think it's going to be just some trash article about Jordan or Trevor's new dumbest brew. They are literally no analytical pieces any more on there. To be honest, even before ktkenshinx left I had stopped reading most of the articles besides his.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Did you email/tweet them? I'd be surprised if someone doesn't reply.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
As a content producer, I will tell you how problematic and unfair this kind of attitude is. I know the author, Jason, has been working very hard to get this out, entering and reviewing December data, writing an article, and pushing to get it published ASAP this week after numerous requests. Although he should definitely have published the October and November ones earlier (his fault and I'm not defending that), he cannot now be faulted for producing this analysis on schedule and as requested and then getting sideswiped (like everyone else) by a surprise Wizards unbanning. Even when I did the updates, we NEVER published a metagame update earlier than the second week of the following month.
The update will still be valuable because it shows what the format looked like before the changes. This is the starting point for the post-update metagame, which has always been valuable even in the face of major changes.
32% linear strategy (Infect, Burn, Affinity, Dredge, Deaths Shadow) and both Lantern AND Eldrazi in the top 10 (lantern?!) bleh.
Spirits
I don't think the bans will do much to change that 32% number, linear aggro decks are still the best option in face of discard/removal heavy BGx decks. Its slightly funny that part of the reasoning behind the probe ban was not affording the opportunity to sequence your spells wrong, because discard spells like Iok and Thoughtseize promote the same type of game play. I can't bait you into terminating creature a when you know I have creature b. This is why I'm a bigger fan of good counterspells you can often bait a player into countering the lesser of two spells with how you sequence your plays can't really do that in modern.
"Even with people in my area swapping new lilliana out for old liliana to test just in case she gets banned. Still at least 2 jund/junk decks make top 8.
Jund is the only tier .5 deck in modern right now. It definitely needs to be hit. Too many options for kill spells to hit those, creatueas are perfectly fine, its lilina of the veil that brings it from a tier 1 to a tier .5 deck. that card definitely needs a ban to allow the modern format to thrive with new stratagies.
I know you highly disagree, but i have been in this format since the beginning and have top 4 with pretty much every deck. Hitting lotv is the best option to bring jund/junk into check right now. If they keep hitting everything else down jund will be a tier 0 deck."
Like, seriously, are we just going to ban everything?
I agree with the GGT ban, and while the probe ban makes me sad, I see the rationale and logic behind it, and it does hurt things like Become immense in the process
But having people clamor for more bans is scary
Jund and Junk are a pile of good cards, and they could survive some bans, but I'm not sure the decks could survive if LOTV or Goyf were banned
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Fair enough. He did work hard on the data. It's just frustrating not to have the data in general
Did the bans change what happend in December?
It's great to have it up to see what the meta looked like in December, before the bans, and from next month on we'll be able to see how thing changed after the ban. If we only had September metagame and January onwards, it wouldn't be a realistic comparsion.
WGUBR 5c Humans
GWR Naya Zoo
Legacy:
GW GW Maverick
R Goblins
Spirits
and here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VwzQKE-QTxRqzZjZ2n0o1Cp80enNcYQACf3d7xlsVDc/pubhtml
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)