How is it helping control? It gives control a deck they have a decent chance against assuming the draw isn't complete *****. I don't think control needs anymore help or anything need to turn the format into a blue format.
I just would like it if more Control decks like WUR and Blue Moon did better. Burn being good against BGx is another good thing about it because it helps the metagame cope with that shell.
Blue based control doesn't need anymore help. Its already got the second best combination of colors (mostly being UR) in the format. Nothing, not agro, not combo, not control, nothing needs any sort of special attention or unbannings. Everything is finally good balanced. Not to mention if blue based decks did better then people would switch the meta to a heavier GB/x shell to combat this which would make the format resemble pre-M14 modern.
Good point.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
How is it helping control? It gives control a deck they have a decent chance against assuming the draw isn't complete *****. I don't think control needs anymore help or anything need to turn the format into a blue format.
I just would like it if more Control decks like WUR and Blue Moon did better. Burn being good against BGx is another good thing about it because it helps the metagame cope with that shell.
Blue based control doesn't need anymore help. Its already got the second best combination of colors (mostly being UR) in the format. Nothing, not agro, not combo, not control, nothing needs any sort of special attention or unbannings. Everything is finally good balanced. Not to mention if blue based decks did better then people would switch the meta to a heavier GB/x shell to combat this which would make the format resemble pre-M14 modern.
Good point.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
We don't have to wait to judge their power level. Esper and a UB control list made top 32 at Boston. The decks are viable, but they aren't popular enough to put up the kind of results to be tier. It's a catch-22. If no one plays a deck then everyone says it's not a good deck because no one plays it.
I just would like it if more Control decks like WUR and Blue Moon did better. Burn being good against BGx is another good thing about it because it helps the metagame cope with that shell.
Blue based control doesn't need anymore help. Its already got the second best combination of colors (mostly being UR) in the format. Nothing, not agro, not combo, not control, nothing needs any sort of special attention or unbannings. Everything is finally good balanced. Not to mention if blue based decks did better then people would switch the meta to a heavier GB/x shell to combat this which would make the format resemble pre-M14 modern.
Good point.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
We don't have to wait to judge their power level. Esper and a UB control list made top 32 at Boston. The decks are viable, but they aren't popular enough to put up the kind of results to be tier. It's a catch-22. If no one plays a deck then everyone says it's not a good deck because no one plays it.
This is bad science. One data point is not enough to judge the viability of a deck or not. I'm looking into playing an Esper brew, but I'm not going to tell people that Esper is a winning strategy. The deck has manabase issues, this is known. The deck was piloted was Wafo-Tapa, on top of that fact that he's really good, luck could've also been on his side that day. If the deck keeps consistently placing then I will be the first to concede its viability, but do not use 1 data point to argue the viability of a deck. I'm sure many pros have tested Esper brews before, and for whatever reason, they always gravitate back to UWR.
Blue based control doesn't need anymore help. Its already got the second best combination of colors (mostly being UR) in the format. Nothing, not agro, not combo, not control, nothing needs any sort of special attention or unbannings. Everything is finally good balanced. Not to mention if blue based decks did better then people would switch the meta to a heavier GB/x shell to combat this which would make the format resemble pre-M14 modern.
Good point.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
We don't have to wait to judge their power level. Esper and a UB control list made top 32 at Boston. The decks are viable, but they aren't popular enough to put up the kind of results to be tier. It's a catch-22. If no one plays a deck then everyone says it's not a good deck because no one plays it.
This is bad science. One data point is not enough to judge the viability of a deck or not. I'm looking into playing an Esper brew, but I'm not going to tell people that Esper is a winning strategy. The deck has manabase issues, this is known. The deck was piloted was Wafo-Tapa, on top of that fact that he's really good, luck could've also been on his side that day. If the deck keeps consistently placing then I will be the first to concede its viability, but do not use 1 data point to argue the viability of a deck. I'm sure many pros have tested Esper brews before, and for whatever reason, they always gravitate back to UWR.
You've already stated the reason. Mana issues. In addition to the mana issues, you get more counterburn/tempo style of gameplay which is more becoming in this format, I think.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
There is no reason being friendly and being competitive can't be synonymous.
Decks that top 32 in a field of 2,400 players are viable. By viable I mean a good pilot and reasonably expect to 4-0 a daily event with the deck. Whether or not these other control decks are objectively better than UWR is another question entirely, but a good player can take a blue based control deck and win with it.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
We don't have to wait to judge their power level. Esper and a UB control list made top 32 at Boston. The decks are viable, but they aren't popular enough to put up the kind of results to be tier. It's a catch-22. If no one plays a deck then everyone says it's not a good deck because no one plays it.
This is bad science. One data point is not enough to judge the viability of a deck or not. I'm looking into playing an Esper brew, but I'm not going to tell people that Esper is a winning strategy. The deck has manabase issues, this is known. The deck was piloted was Wafo-Tapa, on top of that fact that he's really good, luck could've also been on his side that day. If the deck keeps consistently placing then I will be the first to concede its viability, but do not use 1 data point to argue the viability of a deck. I'm sure many pros have tested Esper brews before, and for whatever reason, they always gravitate back to UWR.
You've already stated the reason. Mana issues. In addition to the mana issues, you get more counterburn/tempo style of gameplay which is more becoming in this format, I think.
Yeah I can see that. But I still think Esper can be a viable deck if they get their allied fetches sometime down the road. It might be weak versus UWR, but it might have an edge against other decks.
I'm not gunna lie; seeing Elspeth, Sun's Champion make into the sideboard of a Modern deck is kind of sweet. It gives me hope that I can maybe play her as a 1 of post-rotation if Esper becomes a viable deck.
Blue based control doesn't need anymore help. Its already got the second best combination of colors (mostly being UR) in the format. Nothing, not agro, not combo, not control, nothing needs any sort of special attention or unbannings. Everything is finally good balanced. Not to mention if blue based decks did better then people would switch the meta to a heavier GB/x shell to combat this which would make the format resemble pre-M14 modern.
Good point.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
We don't have to wait to judge their power level. Esper and a UB control list made top 32 at Boston. The decks are viable, but they aren't popular enough to put up the kind of results to be tier. It's a catch-22. If no one plays a deck then everyone says it's not a good deck because no one plays it.
This is bad science. One data point is not enough to judge the viability of a deck or not. I'm looking into playing an Esper brew, but I'm not going to tell people that Esper is a winning strategy. The deck has manabase issues, this is known. The deck was piloted was Wafo-Tapa, on top of that fact that he's really good, luck could've also been on his side that day. If the deck keeps consistently placing then I will be the first to concede its viability, but do not use 1 data point to argue the viability of a deck. I'm sure many pros have tested Esper brews before, and for whatever reason, they always gravitate back to UWR.
It doesnt disprove that Esper is viable either. The fact that the deck was able to be piloted to the top of a 2400+ person grand prix does give SOME evidence that the deck is not pure jank. No it does not mean esper or UB are tier 1, but it does give ppl some reason to think that maybe UWR is not the be-all end-all of control decks in modern. Also its not just the colours of the deck Wafo played but also the cards in the deck, if you look at the list, it has 4 targetted removal spells and 3 wrath effects, evertyhing else was permission/bounce/draw effects. This again, gives some evidence that maybe decks dont need 4 bolts, 4 paths 3 helix 3 electrolyze just to be playable. Yes maybe he just got stupidly lucky and had 13 opponents who mulled to 4, 2 out of the 3 games. or maybe wafo found something in his playtesting that supports what some of us are saying, that bolt is not the "best" card in the format and control needs to revisit the way it is run.
Yeah I can see that. But I still think Esper can be a viable deck if they get their allied fetches sometime down the road. It might be weak versus UWR, but it might have an edge against other decks.
I 100% agree with you in the possibility that if they can (hopefully soon) get their enemy fetches, then it can hopefully rise to a Tier 1 competitive deck.
In relevance to the list that placed: I love the 3 shadow of doubt mainboard. I've been considering it in my UB faeries list.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
There is no reason being friendly and being competitive can't be synonymous.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
We don't have to wait to judge their power level. Esper and a UB control list made top 32 at Boston. The decks are viable, but they aren't popular enough to put up the kind of results to be tier. It's a catch-22. If no one plays a deck then everyone says it's not a good deck because no one plays it.
This is bad science. One data point is not enough to judge the viability of a deck or not. I'm looking into playing an Esper brew, but I'm not going to tell people that Esper is a winning strategy. The deck has manabase issues, this is known. The deck was piloted was Wafo-Tapa, on top of that fact that he's really good, luck could've also been on his side that day. If the deck keeps consistently placing then I will be the first to concede its viability, but do not use 1 data point to argue the viability of a deck. I'm sure many pros have tested Esper brews before, and for whatever reason, they always gravitate back to UWR.
It doesnt disprove that Esper is viable either. The fact that the deck was able to be piloted to the top of a 2400+ person grand prix does give SOME evidence that the deck is not pure jank. No it does not mean esper or UB are tier 1, but it does give ppl some reason to think that maybe UWR is not the be-all end-all of control decks in modern. Also its not just the colours of the deck Wafo played but also the cards in the deck, if you look at the list, it has 4 targetted removal spells and 3 wrath effects, evertyhing else was permission/bounce/draw effects. This again, gives some evidence that maybe decks dont need 4 bolts, 4 paths 3 helix 3 electrolyze just to be playable. Yes maybe he just got stupidly lucky and had 13 opponents who mulled to 4, 2 out of the 3 games. or maybe wafo found something in his playtesting that supports what some of us are saying, that bolt is not the "best" card in the format and control needs to revisit the way it is run.
If you carefully read what I said, you can tell I'm not saying that at all. I merely stated a fact, that 1 data point is not enough to PROVE something. I made no mention of disproving anything, but you are correct in saying that this might be the beginning of some serious consideration for Esper decks. 1 data point proves nothing, but it is a start. I'm quite certain that if Onslaught fetches get reprinted, Esper would get a measureable boost in power.
Yeah I can see that. But I still think Esper can be a viable deck if they get their allied fetches sometime down the road. It might be weak versus UWR, but it might have an edge against other decks.
I 100% agree with you in the possibility that if they can (hopefully soon) get their enemy fetches, then it can hopefully rise to a Tier 1 competitive deck.
In relevance to the list that placed: I love the 3 shadow of doubt mainboard. I've been considering it in my UB faeries list.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
We don't have to wait to judge their power level. Esper and a UB control list made top 32 at Boston. The decks are viable, but they aren't popular enough to put up the kind of results to be tier. It's a catch-22. If no one plays a deck then everyone says it's not a good deck because no one plays it.
This is bad science. One data point is not enough to judge the viability of a deck or not. I'm looking into playing an Esper brew, but I'm not going to tell people that Esper is a winning strategy. The deck has manabase issues, this is known. The deck was piloted was Wafo-Tapa, on top of that fact that he's really good, luck could've also been on his side that day. If the deck keeps consistently placing then I will be the first to concede its viability, but do not use 1 data point to argue the viability of a deck. I'm sure many pros have tested Esper brews before, and for whatever reason, they always gravitate back to UWR.
It doesnt disprove that Esper is viable either. The fact that the deck was able to be piloted to the top of a 2400+ person grand prix does give SOME evidence that the deck is not pure jank. No it does not mean esper or UB are tier 1, but it does give ppl some reason to think that maybe UWR is not the be-all end-all of control decks in modern. Also its not just the colours of the deck Wafo played but also the cards in the deck, if you look at the list, it has 4 targetted removal spells and 3 wrath effects, evertyhing else was permission/bounce/draw effects. This again, gives some evidence that maybe decks dont need 4 bolts, 4 paths 3 helix 3 electrolyze just to be playable. Yes maybe he just got stupidly lucky and had 13 opponents who mulled to 4, 2 out of the 3 games. or maybe wafo found something in his playtesting that supports what some of us are saying, that bolt is not the "best" card in the format and control needs to revisit the way it is run.
Lightning Bolt has long seized to be the end all be all in my opinion. It's becoming more and more just an instant-speed Lava Spike. Especially against the top tier decks who have all adapted to it and are aware of it.
I think Wafo-tapa just told us that esper wants the allied fetches, it doesn't need them.
Yes he is a control god, and he could have placed highly with a ham sandwich with no creatures in it--but its not luck and its not a fluke, its correctly identifying that consistently spell snaring everything would ruin this BG meta's day, cards are good and seeing more of them makes you less draw dependent and disruption proof, and that cryptic and a little spot removal will cover the rest. Going to 17 on the draw to hold up snare rather than bolt a bird obviously worked at least 22 times-ish
In a format hostile to birds turn 1, bolt kind of doesn't do enough, and red contributes helix which is unnecessary considering the way the rest of the deck is built. I take it I'm correct as otherwise I'd have at least expected to see one timely reinforcements in his board.
I'll say that I chose U/B because of Mana, so anyone that says enemy fetches are good enough to play grixis or esper are wrong. After trying to make a grixis deck, I gave up and went straight U/B.
That was also a natural 36 points, I had 0 byes going into that GP.
I also don't think I'm anywhere near Wafo-Tapa in skill level, so I doubt you can't say I did that on skill level alone.
Is it the best 75? Probably not, but in no way is control not playable.
Congratulations, thats quite the achievement. Are you going to do a tournament report or write anything about your brew process or anything like that? I'd definitely be interested in reading it if you do.
Based on the Wafo-tapa list, I think he went esper in just the right way to make it work, he really is just a UW deck and didn't kill himself trying to get any more than he needed out of that black splash to cover the weaknesses. I could see why your list couldn't handle the third color however.
I'll say that I chose U/B because of Mana, so anyone that says enemy fetches are good enough to play grixis or esper are wrong. After trying to make a grixis deck, I gave up and went straight U/B.
That was also a natural 36 points, I had 0 byes going into that GP.
I also don't think I'm anywhere near Wafo-Tapa in skill level, so I doubt you can't say I did that on skill level alone.
Is it the best 75? Probably not, but in no way is control not playable.
Well congratulations to your solid finish. Your deck looks definitely interesting. Maybe I try it out for a bit when I get to it. Good to see that they are more control mages out there.
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Marsh Flats
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Spell Snare
4 Path to Exile
2 Remand
2 Logic Knot
2 Shadow of Doubt
4 Think Twice
4 Esper Charm
4 Cryptic Command
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
2 Sphinx's Revelation
1 White Sun's Zenith
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Celestial purge
1 Disenchant
1 Detention Sphere
1 Wrath of God
2 Stony Silence
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Thoughtseize
2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
You seem hostile to Pod, why not simply cheer for the result instead of bichting around ?
- L
Warned for FlamingLantern
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Only 2 snaps seems bad
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
We don't have to wait to judge their power level. Esper and a UB control list made top 32 at Boston. The decks are viable, but they aren't popular enough to put up the kind of results to be tier. It's a catch-22. If no one plays a deck then everyone says it's not a good deck because no one plays it.
This is bad science. One data point is not enough to judge the viability of a deck or not. I'm looking into playing an Esper brew, but I'm not going to tell people that Esper is a winning strategy. The deck has manabase issues, this is known. The deck was piloted was Wafo-Tapa, on top of that fact that he's really good, luck could've also been on his side that day. If the deck keeps consistently placing then I will be the first to concede its viability, but do not use 1 data point to argue the viability of a deck. I'm sure many pros have tested Esper brews before, and for whatever reason, they always gravitate back to UWR.
Yeah I can see that. But I still think Esper can be a viable deck if they get their allied fetches sometime down the road. It might be weak versus UWR, but it might have an edge against other decks.
I'm not gunna lie; seeing Elspeth, Sun's Champion make into the sideboard of a Modern deck is kind of sweet. It gives me hope that I can maybe play her as a 1 of post-rotation if Esper becomes a viable deck.
Edit: Spelling.
It doesnt disprove that Esper is viable either. The fact that the deck was able to be piloted to the top of a 2400+ person grand prix does give SOME evidence that the deck is not pure jank. No it does not mean esper or UB are tier 1, but it does give ppl some reason to think that maybe UWR is not the be-all end-all of control decks in modern. Also its not just the colours of the deck Wafo played but also the cards in the deck, if you look at the list, it has 4 targetted removal spells and 3 wrath effects, evertyhing else was permission/bounce/draw effects. This again, gives some evidence that maybe decks dont need 4 bolts, 4 paths 3 helix 3 electrolyze just to be playable. Yes maybe he just got stupidly lucky and had 13 opponents who mulled to 4, 2 out of the 3 games. or maybe wafo found something in his playtesting that supports what some of us are saying, that bolt is not the "best" card in the format and control needs to revisit the way it is run.
In relevance to the list that placed: I love the 3 shadow of doubt mainboard. I've been considering it in my UB faeries list.
If you carefully read what I said, you can tell I'm not saying that at all. I merely stated a fact, that 1 data point is not enough to PROVE something. I made no mention of disproving anything, but you are correct in saying that this might be the beginning of some serious consideration for Esper decks. 1 data point proves nothing, but it is a start. I'm quite certain that if Onslaught fetches get reprinted, Esper would get a measureable boost in power.
It had 2 Shadow of Doubt's.
Lightning Bolt has long seized to be the end all be all in my opinion. It's becoming more and more just an instant-speed Lava Spike. Especially against the top tier decks who have all adapted to it and are aware of it.
Yes he is a control god, and he could have placed highly with a ham sandwich with no creatures in it--but its not luck and its not a fluke, its correctly identifying that consistently spell snaring everything would ruin this BG meta's day, cards are good and seeing more of them makes you less draw dependent and disruption proof, and that cryptic and a little spot removal will cover the rest. Going to 17 on the draw to hold up snare rather than bolt a bird obviously worked at least 22 times-ish
In a format hostile to birds turn 1, bolt kind of doesn't do enough, and red contributes helix which is unnecessary considering the way the rest of the deck is built. I take it I'm correct as otherwise I'd have at least expected to see one timely reinforcements in his board.
http://www.battlegroundgames.com/gp-boston-worcester-top-32-deck-list-ub-teachings-by-carl-godon/
That was also a natural 36 points, I had 0 byes going into that GP.
I also don't think I'm anywhere near Wafo-Tapa in skill level, so I doubt you can't say I did that on skill level alone.
Is it the best 75? Probably not, but in no way is control not playable.
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
in particular is just too good to pass up.
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpbos14/t8decks
Based on the Wafo-tapa list, I think he went esper in just the right way to make it work, he really is just a UW deck and didn't kill himself trying to get any more than he needed out of that black splash to cover the weaknesses. I could see why your list couldn't handle the third color however.
Well congratulations to your solid finish. Your deck looks definitely interesting. Maybe I try it out for a bit when I get to it. Good to see that they are more control mages out there.
Rasputin Dreamweaver EDH