I like how everyone talks about how dead control is and needs a boost, but as soon as a genuine control deck does pretty well in a GP the first response is that decks don't matter only players do.
If someone can do well with a deck, it is a viable deck. No matter how good you are, you aren't going to pull jank up to the top tables of a GP. UWR might be the better deck, or at least better situated in the meta, but Esper must be at the very least a reasonable contender that is worth more exploration than it's been given.
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That manabase seems horrible. WUB for Esper Charm, UR for Izzet Charm and Electrolyze, BB for Consume the Meek, UUU for Cryptic Command, BR for Terminate, WUU for Sphinx's Revelation, and WWW for White Sun's Zenith seems like it couldn't get much more inconsistent.
Does this esper deck remind anyone else of the old Mystical Teachings decks (obviously without the Teachings)??
I am quite surprised with some of the deck choices, both positively and negatively. but i am no Wafo, so i prolly dont have the right to doubt. I'll have to sleeve it up and see how it runs. Maybe someone should start a thread in the creation forums to discuss further testing and changes to the deck.
I actually ctrl-f'd for Teachings, then mumbled a brief wtf at their absence.
Deck looks nice, I like the shunning of Mana Leak to preserve the utility of a PATH EVERYTHING angle. But then there's Logic Knot which I guess sorta does a similar job but can hedge on graveyarded cards to work around Path-ramping the opponent.
Didn't like a lack of Creeping Tar Pit, though.
People are probably gonna say "it's because it dies to Bolt." I rather believe it's because CTP doesn't tap for White. Black's like the distant splash color of the pile if anything... at least it's used for Esper Charm (aka one of the best reasons to go Esper colors).
If someone can do well with a deck, it is a viable deck. No matter how good you are, you aren't going to pull jank up to the top tables of a GP. UWR might be the better deck, or at least better situated in the meta, but Esper must be at the very least a reasonable contender that is worth more exploration than it's been given.
That is the thing though. Nobody plays Esper really so how should we know that Jeskai(yes get used to it) is actually better?
Im willing to test it out and see how it does. And I totally agree with you that pros can't just show up with random jank and do well with it. Craig Wescoe isn't sleeving up Soul Sisters either even though he is known to play White Weenie strategies.
If someone can do well with a deck, it is a viable deck. No matter how good you are, you aren't going to pull jank up to the top tables of a GP. UWR might be the better deck, or at least better situated in the meta, but Esper must be at the very least a reasonable contender that is worth more exploration than it's been given.
That is the thing though. Nobody plays Esper really so how should we know that Jeskai(yes get used to it) is actually better?
Im willing to test it out and see how it does. And I totally agree with you that pros can't just show up with random jank and do well with it. Craig Wescoe isn't sleeving up Soul Sisters either even though he is known to play White Weenie strategies.
I think we're saying exactly the same thing, or at least I was trying to. My point was exactly that Esper hasn't had much work done to it, and even if UWR turns out to be better in the end, the question has been posed: Is Esper good enough now? Actual effort needs to be put into answering it, not "I don't see why this is good".
Or, at least, that's what I was trying to say. Insomnia makes brain good hard.
Also, I actually already like all the Wedge names, I just don't remember which wedge they go with well enough to use them in conversation yet. : p
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So to be clear, we're asking whether or not enough evidence has been provided to answer the question of whether or not Esper can be played to success, regardless of whether or not UWR is considered relatively "better," right?
Personally, I'll say what I've been saying for months: Esper is a potentially strong meta choice that is underplayed due to less stable mana and, well, just straight lack of establishment. My hope is that this, or a future event that Wafo-Tapa does even better at, is the push it needs to get more people working on it.
I also concede that I might be wrong and it might be too unstable or WT might have ridden some luck on top of his skill, but I absolutely would not bank on that statement until more testing has been done.
I dunno, I think I'll let other people discuss while I try to reconstruct my brain via brief hallucinatory coma.
You can ignore all the babbling and just take "You're right" away from that.
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I was able to top 32 (24th) the GP with a straight U/B deck
8-1 Day 1 (to a punt in round 8) and 4-2 Day 2 (Burn and Tron will never be good match ups)
If someone can do well with a deck, it is a viable deck. No matter how good you are, you aren't going to pull jank up to the top tables of a GP. UWR might be the better deck, or at least better situated in the meta, but Esper must be at the very least a reasonable contender that is worth more exploration than it's been given.
That is the thing though. Nobody plays Esper really so how should we know that Jeskai(yes get used to it) is actually better?
Im willing to test it out and see how it does. And I totally agree with you that pros can't just show up with random jank and do well with it. Craig Wescoe isn't sleeving up Soul Sisters either even though he is known to play White Weenie strategies.
Soul Sisters was 9-0 at the end of day 1. Don't disrespect it.
Burn was everywhere this GP, Eidelon of Great Revels is a huge thing. Probably not enough to make it a real big contender, but the large numbers and relative buff to the deck explain the large numbers in day 2. I suspect if we had the numbers for day 1 it wouldn't look as good as it's day 2 numbers make it seem.
Burn was everywhere this GP, Eidelon of Great Revels is a huge thing. Probably not enough to make it a real big contender, but the large numbers and relative buff to the deck explain the large numbers in day 2. I suspect if we had the numbers for day 1 it wouldn't look as good as it's day 2 numbers make it seem.
One should also take into account that Eidelon has also made burn a true tier one deck in legacy. He's really that powerful.
Burn was everywhere this GP, Eidelon of Great Revels is a huge thing. Probably not enough to make it a real big contender, but the large numbers and relative buff to the deck explain the large numbers in day 2. I suspect if we had the numbers for day 1 it wouldn't look as good as it's day 2 numbers make it seem.
One should also take into account that Eidelon has also made burn a true tier one deck in legacy. He's really that powerful.
Unfortunately
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U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
Burn was everywhere this GP, Eidelon of Great Revels is a huge thing. Probably not enough to make it a real big contender, but the large numbers and relative buff to the deck explain the large numbers in day 2. I suspect if we had the numbers for day 1 it wouldn't look as good as it's day 2 numbers make it seem.
One should also take into account that Eidelon has also made burn a true tier one deck in legacy. He's really that powerful.
Unfortunately
I personally love it. Burn loses to a large amount of counterspells and removal.
Burn was everywhere this GP, Eidelon of Great Revels is a huge thing. Probably not enough to make it a real big contender, but the large numbers and relative buff to the deck explain the large numbers in day 2. I suspect if we had the numbers for day 1 it wouldn't look as good as it's day 2 numbers make it seem.
One should also take into account that Eidelon has also made burn a true tier one deck in legacy. He's really that powerful.
Unfortunately
I personally love it. Burn loses to a large amount of counterspells and removal.
Which is good for you but for anyone not playing counterspells and removal (ie. not playing control) then they will have a bad time. Plus its like one of the easiest and cheapest decks in the format.
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U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
Burn was everywhere this GP, Eidelon of Great Revels is a huge thing. Probably not enough to make it a real big contender, but the large numbers and relative buff to the deck explain the large numbers in day 2. I suspect if we had the numbers for day 1 it wouldn't look as good as it's day 2 numbers make it seem.
One should also take into account that Eidelon has also made burn a true tier one deck in legacy. He's really that powerful.
I was shooting the crap with some guys in between rounds at the SCG Baltimore IQ about that. Pyrostatic Pillar with legs really does get there.
I'm regretting not getting a bunch of him. Not saying he'd work in Boros, but he's definitely a 2drop critter I'd run without second thought...
Burn was everywhere this GP, Eidelon of Great Revels is a huge thing. Probably not enough to make it a real big contender, but the large numbers and relative buff to the deck explain the large numbers in day 2. I suspect if we had the numbers for day 1 it wouldn't look as good as it's day 2 numbers make it seem.
One should also take into account that Eidelon has also made burn a true tier one deck in legacy. He's really that powerful.
Unfortunately
I personally love it. Burn loses to a large amount of counterspells and removal.
Which is good for you but for anyone not playing counterspells and removal (ie. not playing control) then they will have a bad time. Plus its like one of the easiest and cheapest decks in the format.
How is it helping control? It gives control a deck they have a decent chance against assuming the draw isn't complete *****. I don't think control needs anymore help or anything need to turn the format into a blue format.
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How is it helping control? It gives control a deck they have a decent chance against assuming the draw isn't complete *****. I don't think control needs anymore help or anything need to turn the format into a blue format.
I just would like it if more Control decks like WUR and Blue Moon did better. Burn being good against BGx is another good thing about it because it helps the metagame cope with that shell.
How is it helping control? It gives control a deck they have a decent chance against assuming the draw isn't complete *****. I don't think control needs anymore help or anything need to turn the format into a blue format.
I just would like it if more Control decks like WUR and Blue Moon did better. Burn being good against BGx is another good thing about it because it helps the metagame cope with that shell.
Blue based control doesn't need anymore help. Its already got the second best combination of colors (mostly being UR) in the format. Nothing, not agro, not combo, not control, nothing needs any sort of special attention or unbannings. Everything is finally good balanced. Not to mention if blue based decks did better then people would switch the meta to a heavier GB/x shell to combat this which would make the format resemble pre-M14 modern.
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If someone can do well with a deck, it is a viable deck. No matter how good you are, you aren't going to pull jank up to the top tables of a GP. UWR might be the better deck, or at least better situated in the meta, but Esper must be at the very least a reasonable contender that is worth more exploration than it's been given.
I vehemently disagree with this. All someone doing well really says is that they played well and got lucky, it says nothing about the viability of the deck. Decks need consistent success in order to be considered viable. For instance someone doing well on a single daily doesn't mean anything, anyone can have a good day with a random pile.
There's a popular story in the northeast US about how 3 years ago a guy who barely ever played the game entered a 10 proxy vintage tournament deck with the Jace deck from JvC and he won the whole thing. That doesn't mean you can reliably take the Jace deck and win tourneys. Even if it runs a copy of Daze, gush, and 2 (!) copies of counter spell.
What about the Mono U bear delver deck? Travis woo won some dailys with it didn't he? Didn't LSV win a daily with it too? Why doesn't it do well then? Isn't the deck viable because people have won with it?
I don't particularly think wafo's Esper deck here says anything about the viability of Esper control in modern. I think it says he's a very good player who obviously can play draw go style well, but it doesn't mean this is a particularly good deck, or anything else. If there's continued success then maybe, but him going to day 2 says nothing.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
How is it helping control? It gives control a deck they have a decent chance against assuming the draw isn't complete *****. I don't think control needs anymore help or anything need to turn the format into a blue format.
I just would like it if more Control decks like WUR and Blue Moon did better. Burn being good against BGx is another good thing about it because it helps the metagame cope with that shell.
Blue based control doesn't need anymore help. Its already got the second best combination of colors (mostly being UR) in the format. Nothing, not agro, not combo, not control, nothing needs any sort of special attention or unbannings. Everything is finally good balanced. Not to mention if blue based decks did better then people would switch the meta to a heavier GB/x shell to combat this which would make the format resemble pre-M14 modern.
If someone can do well with a deck, it is a viable deck. No matter how good you are, you aren't going to pull jank up to the top tables of a GP. UWR might be the better deck, or at least better situated in the meta, but Esper must be at the very least a reasonable contender that is worth more exploration than it's been given.
That is the thing though. Nobody plays Esper really so how should we know that Jeskai(yes get used to it) is actually better?
Im willing to test it out and see how it does. And I totally agree with you that pros can't just show up with random jank and do well with it. Craig Wescoe isn't sleeving up Soul Sisters either even though he is known to play White Weenie strategies.
Soul Sisters was 9-0 at the end of day 1. Don't disrespect it.
I not doing that. Im just saying that if you want to do really well(win the GP) Soul Sisters may not be the choice that most people would make. I mean we did see it on camera losing.
Sure have 4 sisters and a 20/20 and 15/15 Ajani's Pridemate I will just combo you out.
That manabase seems horrible. WUB for Esper Charm, UR for Izzet Charm and Electrolyze, BB for Consume the Meek, UUU for Cryptic Command, BR for Terminate, WUU for Sphinx's Revelation, and WWW for White Sun's Zenith seems like it couldn't get much more inconsistent.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I actually ctrl-f'd for Teachings, then mumbled a brief wtf at their absence.
Deck looks nice, I like the shunning of Mana Leak to preserve the utility of a PATH EVERYTHING angle. But then there's Logic Knot which I guess sorta does a similar job but can hedge on graveyarded cards to work around Path-ramping the opponent.
Didn't like a lack of Creeping Tar Pit, though.
People are probably gonna say "it's because it dies to Bolt." I rather believe it's because CTP doesn't tap for White. Black's like the distant splash color of the pile if anything... at least it's used for Esper Charm (aka one of the best reasons to go Esper colors).
That is the thing though. Nobody plays Esper really so how should we know that Jeskai(yes get used to it) is actually better?
Im willing to test it out and see how it does. And I totally agree with you that pros can't just show up with random jank and do well with it. Craig Wescoe isn't sleeving up Soul Sisters either even though he is known to play White Weenie strategies.
I think we're saying exactly the same thing, or at least I was trying to. My point was exactly that Esper hasn't had much work done to it, and even if UWR turns out to be better in the end, the question has been posed: Is Esper good enough now? Actual effort needs to be put into answering it, not "I don't see why this is good".
Or, at least, that's what I was trying to say. Insomnia makes brain good hard.
Also, I actually already like all the Wedge names, I just don't remember which wedge they go with well enough to use them in conversation yet. : p
Personally, I'll say what I've been saying for months: Esper is a potentially strong meta choice that is underplayed due to less stable mana and, well, just straight lack of establishment. My hope is that this, or a future event that Wafo-Tapa does even better at, is the push it needs to get more people working on it.
I also concede that I might be wrong and it might be too unstable or WT might have ridden some luck on top of his skill, but I absolutely would not bank on that statement until more testing has been done.
I dunno, I think I'll let other people discuss while I try to reconstruct my brain via brief hallucinatory coma.
You can ignore all the babbling and just take "You're right" away from that.
8-1 Day 1 (to a punt in round 8) and 4-2 Day 2 (Burn and Tron will never be good match ups)
http://www.battlegroundgames.com/gp-boston-worcester-top-32-deck-list-ub-teachings-by-carl-godon/
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
Soul Sisters was 9-0 at the end of day 1. Don't disrespect it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
One should also take into account that Eidelon has also made burn a true tier one deck in legacy. He's really that powerful.
Unfortunately
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
I personally love it. Burn loses to a large amount of counterspells and removal.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Which is good for you but for anyone not playing counterspells and removal (ie. not playing control) then they will have a bad time. Plus its like one of the easiest and cheapest decks in the format.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
I was shooting the crap with some guys in between rounds at the SCG Baltimore IQ about that. Pyrostatic Pillar with legs really does get there.
I'm regretting not getting a bunch of him. Not saying he'd work in Boros, but he's definitely a 2drop critter I'd run without second thought...
Helping Control is a good thing.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
I just would like it if more Control decks like WUR and Blue Moon did better. Burn being good against BGx is another good thing about it because it helps the metagame cope with that shell.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Blue based control doesn't need anymore help. Its already got the second best combination of colors (mostly being UR) in the format. Nothing, not agro, not combo, not control, nothing needs any sort of special attention or unbannings. Everything is finally good balanced. Not to mention if blue based decks did better then people would switch the meta to a heavier GB/x shell to combat this which would make the format resemble pre-M14 modern.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
I vehemently disagree with this. All someone doing well really says is that they played well and got lucky, it says nothing about the viability of the deck. Decks need consistent success in order to be considered viable. For instance someone doing well on a single daily doesn't mean anything, anyone can have a good day with a random pile.
There's a popular story in the northeast US about how 3 years ago a guy who barely ever played the game entered a 10 proxy vintage tournament deck with the Jace deck from JvC and he won the whole thing. That doesn't mean you can reliably take the Jace deck and win tourneys. Even if it runs a copy of Daze, gush, and 2 (!) copies of counter spell.
What about the Mono U bear delver deck? Travis woo won some dailys with it didn't he? Didn't LSV win a daily with it too? Why doesn't it do well then? Isn't the deck viable because people have won with it?
I don't particularly think wafo's Esper deck here says anything about the viability of Esper control in modern. I think it says he's a very good player who obviously can play draw go style well, but it doesn't mean this is a particularly good deck, or anything else. If there's continued success then maybe, but him going to day 2 says nothing.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
Good point.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I not doing that. Im just saying that if you want to do really well(win the GP) Soul Sisters may not be the choice that most people would make. I mean we did see it on camera losing.
Sure have 4 sisters and a 20/20 and 15/15 Ajani's Pridemate I will just combo you out.