I have only just started watching the top 8 but that would make a lot of sense. Normally you would all just go home after splitting prizes but I can't see SCG being overly happy with that. I'm also not surprised that Caleb won the top 8, he probably has the edge when exhaustion being a significant factor in play.
It is positive EV to do prize splits. In the long run, if you prize split, you usually get pretty close to top 2 to top 4 in prizes. When entering the top 8, you only have a 50% chance to pass the top 8, so it's a better value for most. SCG has been known for doing prize splits probably over 95% of the time and then playing for points and the trophy.
When Delver was in Standard, I refused to do a prize split at an SCG Open in Los Angeles. An employee who new my friend said it was only the 2nd time in SCG history that it had not been a prize split. Granted, this was many years ago, but I'm pretty sure that not much has changed. While I don't feel like doing a prize split if I feel I can win, I have to admit that it is worth it in the long run.
Seems to me in the long run that you're down EV if you split top 8 rather than top 4 (in a theoretical world of 50/50 to make top 4, and a jump from 1375 to 2950). Of course, it is also match dependent. If I'm playing Infect and my Top 8 opponent is Tron and I'm the higher seed so on the play, why would I split? Would you?
I've heard it from many Pros and Grinders. I'm done trying to convince them and I'm pretty sure they're right. In the long run, I personally don't mind losing some money to take a chance to advance to the next round, depending on the matchup like you said. But for people who count on this money for their livelihood or at least part of it, they do what's best for them.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
There's carelessly playing and not playing the card your deck is named after and primary win con. This was probably worst top 8 I have ever seen. It's not even close.
I haven't seen the top8, and I do agree that the meta is skewed.
However: What sort of metas and at what level are the people here playing? On the one hand, when a top player is able to do good with an unorthodox deck, it's because he is a "Top Player". But on the other hand, results from SCG opens are dismissed because of the low level of competition..
I'm very glad that Caleb Durward took it all, he had the most cool deck (beside Affinity of course) in the top 8 and he seems like a cool guy.
I want to build his deck. Gonna start with an Esper/Aether Vial variant to see if I like it. Lingering Souls vs Collected Company seems to be the comparison here. Not sure which way to go.
There's carelessly playing and not playing the card your deck is named after and primary win con. This was probably worst top 8 I have ever seen. It's not even close.
This is the quality of competition you get from SCG events. They're basically regional FNMs and only a few on the "SCG Circuit" travel long distances for them. Compare that to the other 15 rounds plus Top 8 event in GPs and you get the best players in the world traveling long distance and making sure to hit a certain number of GPs each year. The level of competition is insanely disparate. And yet for some reason people continue to use SCGs to further one banlist or metagame agenda or another. It's baffling.
There's carelessly playing and not playing the card your deck is named after and primary win con. This was probably worst top 8 I have ever seen. It's not even close.
This is the quality of competition you get from SCG events. They're basically regional FNMs and only a few on the "SCG Circuit" travel long distances for them. Compare that to the other 15 rounds plus Top 8 event in GPs and you get the best players in the world traveling long distance and making sure to hit a certain number of GPs each year. The level of competition is insanely disparate. And yet for some reason people continue to use SCGs to further one banlist or metagame agenda or another. It's baffling.
I think it can still be used as a metric to see if the format is grossly skewed. Dredge's performance definitely indicated that, especially if you go by your argument that the level of play isn't that high at an SCG event (I agree with you). Given most players are on an equal playing level (Ross, Durward, etc. are exceptions) it seems pretty easy to just sleeve up Dredge and lol your way to Day 2.
Once players like BBD and LSV and whatever other CFB acronym you like start playing this deck at GPs, it's going to be eye opening how good it is.
There's carelessly playing and not playing the card your deck is named after and primary win con. This was probably worst top 8 I have ever seen. It's not even close.
This is the quality of competition you get from SCG events. They're basically regional FNMs and only a few on the "SCG Circuit" travel long distances for them. Compare that to the other 15 rounds plus Top 8 event in GPs and you get the best players in the world traveling long distance and making sure to hit a certain number of GPs each year. The level of competition is insanely disparate. And yet for some reason people continue to use SCGs to further one banlist or metagame agenda or another. It's baffling.
I think it can still be used as a metric to see if the format is grossly skewed. Dredge's performance definitely indicated that, especially if you go by your argument that the level of play isn't that high at an SCG event (I agree with you). Given most players are on an equal playing level (Ross, Durward, etc. are exceptions) it seems pretty easy to just sleeve up Dredge and lol your way to Day 2.
Once players like BBD and LSV and whatever other CFB acronym you like start playing this deck at GPs, it's going to be eye opening how good it is.
Tom Ross is a standout on the SCG scene. The folks who travel for SCGs are typically much better than the rest of the field at the event, but they're still a notch or two below most folks who frequent the PTs, and those are the folks traveling for GPs.
I agree that we still use the data. I'm not saying ignore it. But it requires some context. It should only be used as a single data point, and not a sky is falling moment. And also keep in mind that while yes, the Top 8 had 2 Dredge in it, it also had a Jeskai Flash deck and was won by Bant Spirits. It really was a nice and diverse Top 8. That said, 9 copies of Dredge in the Top 32 is certainly alarming. We'll see how it does at the GPs when good players adequately prepare for it.
I'm very glad that Caleb Durward took it all, he had the most cool deck (beside Affinity of course) in the top 8 and he seems like a cool guy.
I want to build his deck. Gonna start with an Esper/Aether Vial variant to see if I like it. Lingering Souls vs Collected Company seems to be the comparison here. Not sure which way to go.
When the Spirit cards from EMN were spoiled, a friend who I had sold Merfolk to previously told me that Spirits could possibly be a "thing" in Modern and in Standard. The shell for Modern that we thought of right away had Lingering Souls and Drogskol Captain. Unfortunately, he tried it in Bant in Standard, but switched deck to deck until landing on Bant Humans (Bard Nelson's deck) for a bit. I think he wanted me to try it in Modern, but the price of Spell Queller at the time and all of the other decks that I currently was trying kept me from actually doing it.
As of yesterday, I bought the Wanderer, Selfless Spirit ($9 ), Spell Queller, and Rattlechains. I already have all the rest of the pieces. I'm ready to try it!
*I should also say that I wasn't sure if Spirits was going to just be a "worse Faeries" or "worse Merfolk," so I didn't feel any need at the time to push it. (I gotta really start testing with proxies some day.)
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I actually tested a U/W version with aether vial and some MD disruption after EMN was spoiled, and I enjoyed it quite a bit. It seemed to lack speed but Spirits have alot of synergy, I especially loved the phantasmal image to copy drogskol or spell queller instant speed off aether vial. I was too lazy to test the bant version with CoCo and dorks at the time, although it adds value and speed, so I reckon its better than the aether vial variant. Not to mention that it can include gavony township this way.
I actually tested a U/W version with aether vial and some MD disruption after EMN was spoiled, and I enjoyed it quite a bit. It seemed to lack speed but Spirits have alot of synergy, I especially loved the phantasmal image to copy drogskol or spell queller instant speed off aether vial. I was too lazy to test the bant version with CoCo and dorks at the time, although it adds value and speed, so I reckon its better than the aether vial variant. Not to mention that it can include gavony township this way.
I'm not sure if it is better, it seems to have a different gameplan though. I think Bant is faster but Lingering Souls is just such a house against so many decks it is hard to give that up.
You could always test it out, splashing Black, and cutting the Steel of the Godhead and maybe a Path to Exile. Try just running 2-3 Lingering Souls to see how it works since I personally don't like messing with the creature count of CoCo decks.
That being said, I'm not sure exactly why Steel is in there, but it seems decent vs. Dredge (as a blocker) and Burn.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I found Lingering Souls to be slow and a non-bo with both Vial and the manabase, since the list I used had mutavaults. Adding black made the manabase too inconsistent. The deck never lacked a punch, it had alot of game against grindy decks, so I felt Lingering Souls was not really what the deck needed, even though it can be insane with drogskol captain and even mausoleum wanderer to get in for a lot of dmg in a single turn. CoCo basically replaces it as the value Engine but brings along more variance.
I found Lingering Souls to be slow and a non-bo with both Vial and the manabase, since the list I used had mutavaults. Adding black made the manabase too inconsistent. The deck never lacked a punch, it had alot of game against grindy decks, so I felt Lingering Souls was not really what the deck needed, even though it can be insane with drogskol captain and even mausoleum wanderer to get in for a lot of dmg in a single turn. CoCo basically replaces it as the value Engine but brings along more variance.
Makes sense. I don't think I would run Mutavaults in this list just because there aren't as many Lords to pump them as in the Fish list. The black splash is essentially just for flashback Souls, so really just some fetches and maybe a Godless Shrine and Watery Grave would be all we need. Regardless, I will have to test it out and see.
Tom Ross is a standout on the SCG scene. The folks who travel for SCGs are typically much better than the rest of the field at the event, but they're still a notch or two below most folks who frequent the PTs, and those are the folks traveling for GPs.
I used to have a pretty low opinion of the main SCG grinders. I still don't think much of people like Jim Davis and Todd Anderson but Gerry Thompson, BBD, Brad Nelson, Tom Ross, and Michael Majors have all proven they've got what it takes to be considered among the best. Brad is almost certainly HoF material even, BBD is the world champ, and if he had a good testing crew I think Tom Ross could string together a bunch of PT T8's. Those guys are every bit as good, or better than the average gold level pro.
The floor for an SCG is pretty low though. I've never gone to one but a couple years ago there was one nearby. My entire local store day 2'ed and I'm better than them, which isn't saying much because I'm bad at Magic. Opens in the lower rounds aren't known for being overly competitive.
Tom Ross is a standout on the SCG scene. The folks who travel for SCGs are typically much better than the rest of the field at the event, but they're still a notch or two below most folks who frequent the PTs, and those are the folks traveling for GPs.
I used to have a pretty low opinion of the main SCG grinders. I still don't think much of people like Jim Davis and Todd Anderson but Gerry Thompson, BBD, Brad Nelson, Tom Ross, and Michael Majors have all proven they've got what it takes to be considered among the best. Brad is almost certainly HoF material even, BBD is the world champ, and if he had a good testing crew I think Tom Ross could string together a bunch of PT T8's. Those guys are every bit as good, or better than the average gold level pro.
The floor for an SCG is pretty low though. I've never gone to one but a couple years ago there was one nearby. My entire local store day 2'ed and I'm better than them, which isn't saying much because I'm bad at Magic. Opens in the lower rounds aren't known for being overly competitive.
I agree with most of the names you've listed, but if you look closely you'll see that Brad Nelson, Gerry Thompson, and BBD don't attend many, if any, SCG events any more. They've transitioned to the next level, regardless of where their articles are posted. Tom Ross is certainly among the best on the SCG Tour, but I'm unaware of any of his PT performances - has he had any?
I agree with most of the names you've listed, but if you look closely you'll see that Brad Nelson, Gerry Thompson, and BBD don't attend many, if any, SCG events any more. They've transitioned to the next level, regardless of where their articles are posted. Tom Ross is certainly among the best on the SCG Tour, but I'm unaware of any of his PT performances - has he had any?
I think Tom Ross has some good GP finishes, besides those he managed a top 8 at PT Honolulu in 2009 and I think he has one other top 8.
I agree with most of the names you've listed, but if you look closely you'll see that Brad Nelson, Gerry Thompson, and BBD don't attend many, if any, SCG events any more. They've transitioned to the next level, regardless of where their articles are posted. Tom Ross is certainly among the best on the SCG Tour, but I'm unaware of any of his PT performances - has he had any?
I think Tom Ross has some good GP finishes, besides those he managed a top 8 at PT Honolulu in 2009 and I think he has one other top 8.
Cool, thanks. I did say he was a "standout" in my first post, meaning he's one of the best. Didn't know his full MTG resume though.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
What kent did wasn't "wrong" per say. Shady and unethical maybe. No one likes Rule Lawyering.
I am kind of surprised at the amount of people supporting his action and claiming he did nothing wrong though.
Yes. His opponent was slopy. But so is what he did.
As much as I like and have a lot of respect for many of people on the SCG circuit it does seem to suffer the most from legal-but-scummy play. It isn't hugely surprising though, some of the player on the SCG circuit sit right at the bottom of the Levine Trench.
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In play: Jund Death Shadow, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Stompy, Ponza
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
What kent did wasn't "wrong" per say. Shady and unethical maybe. No one likes Rule Lawyering.
I am kind of surprised at the amount of people supporting his action and claiming he did nothing wrong though.
Yes. His opponent was slopy. But so is what he did.
While I understand what he did, many opponents will see their opponent manually exiling their graveyard from play and not feel the need to "restate" that everything in graveyards is exiled. I've personally had opponents get a bit perturbed at me for stating something after they have already gone through the motions.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
What kent did wasn't "wrong" per say. Shady and unethical maybe. No one likes Rule Lawyering.
I am kind of surprised at the amount of people supporting his action and claiming he did nothing wrong though.
Yes. His opponent was slopy. But so is what he did.
While I understand what he did, many opponents will see their opponent manually exiling their graveyard from play and not feel the need to "restate" that everything in graveyards is exiled. I've personally had opponents get a bit perturbed at me for stating something after they have already gone through the motions.
I just got in the habit of always announcing my triggers for everything all the time as soon as they happen. If I don't state what the trigger specifically is, I at least say the word "trigger." I got into the strict habit because after coming back to the game after a 14 year hiatus, my first Standard deck was Jeskai Tokens. Being forced to acknowledge and track all your triggers burns the idea into your soul. And right now I play Delver. Every draw step I have an unflipped Delver out, I will tap him with my finger and say "trigger." That way it is explicitly clear I am acknowledging a triggered ability and will then resolve it. If the top card causes him to flip, I verbalize, saying the word(s) "flip?" or "flip Delver?" which serves two roles: acknowledging the trigger and allowing the opponent to respond. It's applicable for any cards that have triggered abilities (which may not be as obvious as activated abilities). Doing it enough makes it feel automatic.
Basically, what Kent did was scummy and horribly unsportsmanlike, but he took advantage of the way rules are enforced. If I actually saw him move his GY away and then moved it back, I would raise hell with the judge as that being a display of acknowledging the implied trigger. However, the only real way to deal with it is make sure you are on top of your own game and verbally announce your actions as they happen.
What kent did wasn't "wrong" per say. Shady and unethical maybe. No one likes Rule Lawyering.
I am kind of surprised at the amount of people supporting his action and claiming he did nothing wrong though.
Yes. His opponent was slopy. But so is what he did.
While I understand what he did, many opponents will see their opponent manually exiling their graveyard from play and not feel the need to "restate" that everything in graveyards is exiled. I've personally had opponents get a bit perturbed at me for stating something after they have already gone through the motions.
It's ******* disgusting behavior. Both Kent and Cardhoarder should be ashamed. How anyone can defend such blatant cheating on camera nonetheless is beyond me.
Agreed. Removal of the graveyard (that the opponent saw) is acknowledgement of the trigger and he knows it.
What kent did wasn't "wrong" per say. Shady and unethical maybe. No one likes Rule Lawyering.
I am kind of surprised at the amount of people supporting his action and claiming he did nothing wrong though.
Yes. His opponent was slopy. But so is what he did.
While I understand what he did, many opponents will see their opponent manually exiling their graveyard from play and not feel the need to "restate" that everything in graveyards is exiled. I've personally had opponents get a bit perturbed at me for stating something after they have already gone through the motions.
It's ******* disgusting behavior. Both Kent and Cardhoarder should be ashamed. How anyone can defend such blatant cheating on camera nonetheless is beyond me.
Exactly. This is more what I was getting at. I would assume the same sort of behavior out of anyone associated with him, so it affects more than just him. I have played the friends or associates of many Pro Players and if they have done some sort of scummy behavior or cheating, I just personally put it in my brain to remember about anyone associated in the slightest way with them. Just as an example, I hold a certain view about a player on the SCG points list who is very well known just because a friend told me his friend cheated me during a match (in which I was not careful because I had Geist of Saint Traft out and was going to win regardless). I have played the actual Pro Player now 6 times before and I haven't noticed anything "out of place," but you best believe I will be careful when playing him.
Players should be careful of their triggers regardless and I will admit that I have allowed players to miss their triggers in the past, but never have actually even thought of moving the card to imply a trigger.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
The issue was his opponent didn't acknowledge him removing his GY. Like it was never brought up.
Although it's true body language is good enough indicator that Kent recognized the trigger... his opponent never acknowledged that.
I've heard it from many Pros and Grinders. I'm done trying to convince them and I'm pretty sure they're right. In the long run, I personally don't mind losing some money to take a chance to advance to the next round, depending on the matchup like you said. But for people who count on this money for their livelihood or at least part of it, they do what's best for them.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
However: What sort of metas and at what level are the people here playing? On the one hand, when a top player is able to do good with an unorthodox deck, it's because he is a "Top Player". But on the other hand, results from SCG opens are dismissed because of the low level of competition..
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Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
I want to build his deck. Gonna start with an Esper/Aether Vial variant to see if I like it. Lingering Souls vs Collected Company seems to be the comparison here. Not sure which way to go.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I think it can still be used as a metric to see if the format is grossly skewed. Dredge's performance definitely indicated that, especially if you go by your argument that the level of play isn't that high at an SCG event (I agree with you). Given most players are on an equal playing level (Ross, Durward, etc. are exceptions) it seems pretty easy to just sleeve up Dredge and lol your way to Day 2.
Once players like BBD and LSV and whatever other CFB acronym you like start playing this deck at GPs, it's going to be eye opening how good it is.
I agree that we still use the data. I'm not saying ignore it. But it requires some context. It should only be used as a single data point, and not a sky is falling moment. And also keep in mind that while yes, the Top 8 had 2 Dredge in it, it also had a Jeskai Flash deck and was won by Bant Spirits. It really was a nice and diverse Top 8. That said, 9 copies of Dredge in the Top 32 is certainly alarming. We'll see how it does at the GPs when good players adequately prepare for it.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
When the Spirit cards from EMN were spoiled, a friend who I had sold Merfolk to previously told me that Spirits could possibly be a "thing" in Modern and in Standard. The shell for Modern that we thought of right away had Lingering Souls and Drogskol Captain. Unfortunately, he tried it in Bant in Standard, but switched deck to deck until landing on Bant Humans (Bard Nelson's deck) for a bit. I think he wanted me to try it in Modern, but the price of Spell Queller at the time and all of the other decks that I currently was trying kept me from actually doing it.
As of yesterday, I bought the Wanderer, Selfless Spirit ($9 ), Spell Queller, and Rattlechains. I already have all the rest of the pieces. I'm ready to try it!
*I should also say that I wasn't sure if Spirits was going to just be a "worse Faeries" or "worse Merfolk," so I didn't feel any need at the time to push it. (I gotta really start testing with proxies some day.)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I'm not sure if it is better, it seems to have a different gameplan though. I think Bant is faster but Lingering Souls is just such a house against so many decks it is hard to give that up.
That being said, I'm not sure exactly why Steel is in there, but it seems decent vs. Dredge (as a blocker) and Burn.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Makes sense. I don't think I would run Mutavaults in this list just because there aren't as many Lords to pump them as in the Fish list. The black splash is essentially just for flashback Souls, so really just some fetches and maybe a Godless Shrine and Watery Grave would be all we need. Regardless, I will have to test it out and see.
I used to have a pretty low opinion of the main SCG grinders. I still don't think much of people like Jim Davis and Todd Anderson but Gerry Thompson, BBD, Brad Nelson, Tom Ross, and Michael Majors have all proven they've got what it takes to be considered among the best. Brad is almost certainly HoF material even, BBD is the world champ, and if he had a good testing crew I think Tom Ross could string together a bunch of PT T8's. Those guys are every bit as good, or better than the average gold level pro.
The floor for an SCG is pretty low though. I've never gone to one but a couple years ago there was one nearby. My entire local store day 2'ed and I'm better than them, which isn't saying much because I'm bad at Magic. Opens in the lower rounds aren't known for being overly competitive.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I think Tom Ross has some good GP finishes, besides those he managed a top 8 at PT Honolulu in 2009 and I think he has one other top 8.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Anyway, I don't want to start a head hunting party or anything. I just want people to be aware, especially if you are going to an Open any time soon. Make sure you brush up on Comp REL. https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/591hja/kent_ketter_everyone_removes_his_graveyard_after/
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)What kent did wasn't "wrong" per say. Shady and unethical maybe. No one likes Rule Lawyering.
I am kind of surprised at the amount of people supporting his action and claiming he did nothing wrong though.
Yes. His opponent was slopy. But so is what he did.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
While I understand what he did, many opponents will see their opponent manually exiling their graveyard from play and not feel the need to "restate" that everything in graveyards is exiled. I've personally had opponents get a bit perturbed at me for stating something after they have already gone through the motions.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I just got in the habit of always announcing my triggers for everything all the time as soon as they happen. If I don't state what the trigger specifically is, I at least say the word "trigger." I got into the strict habit because after coming back to the game after a 14 year hiatus, my first Standard deck was Jeskai Tokens. Being forced to acknowledge and track all your triggers burns the idea into your soul. And right now I play Delver. Every draw step I have an unflipped Delver out, I will tap him with my finger and say "trigger." That way it is explicitly clear I am acknowledging a triggered ability and will then resolve it. If the top card causes him to flip, I verbalize, saying the word(s) "flip?" or "flip Delver?" which serves two roles: acknowledging the trigger and allowing the opponent to respond. It's applicable for any cards that have triggered abilities (which may not be as obvious as activated abilities). Doing it enough makes it feel automatic.
Basically, what Kent did was scummy and horribly unsportsmanlike, but he took advantage of the way rules are enforced. If I actually saw him move his GY away and then moved it back, I would raise hell with the judge as that being a display of acknowledging the implied trigger. However, the only real way to deal with it is make sure you are on top of your own game and verbally announce your actions as they happen.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Agreed. Removal of the graveyard (that the opponent saw) is acknowledgement of the trigger and he knows it.
Exactly. This is more what I was getting at. I would assume the same sort of behavior out of anyone associated with him, so it affects more than just him. I have played the friends or associates of many Pro Players and if they have done some sort of scummy behavior or cheating, I just personally put it in my brain to remember about anyone associated in the slightest way with them. Just as an example, I hold a certain view about a player on the SCG points list who is very well known just because a friend told me his friend cheated me during a match (in which I was not careful because I had Geist of Saint Traft out and was going to win regardless). I have played the actual Pro Player now 6 times before and I haven't noticed anything "out of place," but you best believe I will be careful when playing him.
Players should be careful of their triggers regardless and I will admit that I have allowed players to miss their triggers in the past, but never have actually even thought of moving the card to imply a trigger.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Although it's true body language is good enough indicator that Kent recognized the trigger... his opponent never acknowledged that.
What kent did was not "technically" cheating.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA