My point was to say that Jeskai control is not as bad as you make it to be so there should be something else that makes it a bad deck in your eyes because the reality is different. It's not the best deck and I've never said it is but it's not that bad either. It's still tier 1 quite likely and if it's not for some reason it's certainly not worse than top tier 2 deck which is far from being bad or not viable.
And yet, rather than say that, you said "it's a deck that requires skills to play it well and if you have so bad results with it you probably lack them." Do you tell that to Jim Davis every time he fails to do well with it? The deck has many fundamental problems and easily has the capacity to lose regardless of who is playing it. Wrong answers in hand and lack of a timely clock are huge obstacles to overcome, especially in a Turn 3.5 format.
My point was to say that Jeskai control is not as bad as you make it to be so there should be something else that makes it a bad deck in your eyes because the reality is different. It's not the best deck and I've never said it is but it's not that bad either. It's still tier 1 quite likely and if it's not for some reason it's certainly not worse than top tier 2 deck which is far from being bad or not viable.
And yet, rather than say that, you said "it's a deck that requires skills to play it well and if you have so bad results with it you probably lack them." Do you tell that to Jim Davis every time he fails to do well with it? The deck has many fundamental problems and easily has the capacity to lose regardless of who is playing it. Wrong answers in hand and lack of a timely clock are huge obstacles to overcome, especially in a Turn 3.5 format.
You can have bad results from time to time with every deck no matter how good are you with it but in general these cases will be less common if you're better at playing it. Wrong timing can be a problem and can cost you the game, this is true, but this is the nature of interactive decks. You have tools to beat almost anything but you need to draw the right part of the deck to do so and you can beat everythig at once but you need to customize this to the expected metagame. All fair decks face this problem, control or Jeskai control to be more specific isn't the only one. You just have to accept this, if you can't pick linear deck and you won't have this problem or at least it will be less evident.
It just seems weird that with all that reasoning, Jund is still #1 and BGx Midrange combine for nearly 14% of the format (16.1% if you include CoCo). Shouldn't your evaluation of fair decks transcend both the BGx fair decks and URx fair decks? If not, why do the BGx decks almost triple the share of all URx decks combined? Is it because one is objectively weaker than the other? That one lacks many of the powerful and generalized tools to deal with everything effectively? That one lacks low-cost high-value threats to present early pressure and close games quickly? I think there might be a fundamental difference between one set of colors and another, and lumping them together by saying "all fair decks face these problems" is disingenuous and misleading.
So you guys are just gonna straight-up ignore the mod then?
Maybe Lantern's post was unclear. Let's try again!
This thread is for discussing SCG events and results from SCG events. It is not for discussing bans, the overall metagame, things we like/dislike in Modern, or anything else not related to specific SCG events and results. Any further discussion of those off-topic issues will be warned/infracted accordingly. Take the unrelated discussion to other threads and carry on!
"I am certain that, judging from power level alone, Grixis IS a tier 2 deck"
Gkouru, Grixis delver is yes but not control.
"You can't judge tiers from power level. Tiers refer to the percentage of the metagame made up by a deck."
ashtonkutcher, But you can judge good deck calls for the current meta game. which does translate to a decks power level( in relation to the field)
yes, a part of the meta game is by popularity, but there is a reason the deck choices are popular.
Here's what you are saying:
"Based on power level alone, Grixis Delver makes up at least 1.5% of the metagame."
The good news is, depending on your cutoffs, Grixis Delver is actually Tier 2 this cycle. Granted, it's the lowest charting of all the Tier 2 decks, so its place among those decks is far from secure. But if you consider 1.5% of the metagame "Tier 2," it's a Tier 2 deck.
Aside: Jeskai Nahiri is still Tier 1.
yes grixis delver is tier 2 I knew that, and jeskai nahiri is tier 1 ( and slipping)
in the current metagame, grixis control isnt a strong choice in power level in relation to the field, so its to no surprise its a tier 3 deck. Good , consistent decks, tend to have high meta% so I disagree with your comment:
"You can't judge tiers from power level. Tiers refer to the percentage of the metagame made up by a deck."
Public Mod Note
(Lantern):
Infraction for Ignoring Mod Text ~Lantern
So 8-rack, Bant Eldrazi, Grixis Goryo's, and Scapeshift are aggro/combo? If so that is a new definition of aggro/combo (usually a reference to Infect or Death's Shadow style strategies) or are we just lumping "aggro" and "combo" together? Even the 4c Knightfall deck was running a fair amount of interaction (path plus interactive creatures), so I'm not even confident if it should get slapped with the "linear" moniker.
They are a type of deck that wants to interact with the opponent at little as possible while doing "unfair" things. Sometimes that is via the combat step, and sometimes that is via a single game ending spell, but ultimately it's about ignoring your opponent and just playing cards that do unfair things. Knightfall/Bant Eldrazi are a bit less linear than the rest, but only by a little. The other end of the spectrum is decks like the older Jeskai Control decks or even Jund to an extent, that try to interact a lot with the opponent and beat them fairly. I find it quite telling that for Jeskai to be remotely playable, it's had to become more linear / unfair in nature by using Nahiri. This is not the direction we should be pushing decks in. I'd like to see more cards like Kolaghan's Command in the format that reward players for playing interactive strategies over linear ones.
This is ridiculous nonsense. 8-Rack interacts with the opponent as little as possible? The entire deck does NOTHING BUT interact with the opponent's hand or board. Just so you know, a deck like Eggs or Storm is an example of a non interactive deck. The rest of your claim is just as crazy I'm afraid. I don't know what kind of format you'd prefer, but neither do you since you don't even know what the decks in the current meta do.
I understand the difference between linear and nonlinear quite well; you seem to be the one that is failing to grasp what constitutes meaningful interaction. The difference between say Jund and 8-Rack is that when Jund uses Thoughtseize, it's actually important what card they make you discard. When 8-Rack does it, it's not terribly important, because 8-Rack doesn't really care what deck you are playing.
Ok I stopped reading after the bolded part. Not sure if troll or stupid, but I'm done with you either way. GL.
ive been playing alot of 8rack alot lately on xmage, and it is nothing but another prison deck that prevents the opponent from playing the game, it is the least amount of fun to play against and mindless and boring to play with. yes its very interactive, but it is linear as hell. it feels like those discard spells are just lightning bolts from burn, and im racing to 20 hp. thank god this deck isn't eve tier 2 and only manages rare major top 8's like this one.
im probably going to take a break playing this deck so my opponents can have more fun
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
1. Infect
2. RG Breach
3. Burn
4. UR Storm
5. Affinity
6. Grixis Delver
7. Infect
9. Infect
10. Infect
11. GR Tron
12. Jund
13. Merfolk
14. Mono Blue Delver
15. Suicide Zoo
16. Titan Shift
#8 was missing. Maybe a mistake or some cheating involved?
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():
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Burn will often brings in revelry against storm, so you are actually boarding to no targets for that to the emperion. The other matchups I'm not as sure if it is good yet. Definitely unexpected.
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UBR ANT UBR TES UBR TNT GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
We should also note that all infect decks had Blossoming Defense. 2 Decks had 3 copies (including the winning one) and 2 decks had 2 copies. Always taking into consideration that it was a small event it keeps up the trend of that last month(s). 4/16 infect decks, infect being one of the best decks to play at the moment, 10 aggro-linear decks (including burn), an RG Breach and an RG scapeshift decks as well as a bring to light scapeshift. A GR Tron managed to slip in there together with a UR Storm and the only midrange deck was a Jund.
Control still has its issues and haven't found a way to emerge in this meta-game.
Another interesting fact: none of the Infect decks played Botanical Sanctum. The Grixis Delver deck had 3 Tasigur and 1 Angler, yet played 2 Spirebluff Canal (it does have Thought Scour though).
Another interesting fact: none of the Infect decks played Botanical Sanctum. The Grixis Delver deck had 3 Tasigur and 1 Angler, yet played 2 Spirebluff Canal (it does have Thought Scour though).
Grixis cares much more about preserving their life total than inffect because of Probes and the 3 color mana base. For infect, even T4 is good to have untapped mana sources and fetching for 3 life is not that bad considering they want to kill you faster they you kill them.
Botanical Sanctum wasn't included and will never be included in Infect for as long as Become Immense is part of the deck, if it gets the axe someday then I can see some amount of copies having place in the list, but even then having a comes into play tapped land when you are attacking with Inkmoth Nexus is a pretty bad feeling.
Another SCG Modern event should be firing in about 20 mins (10am cst). Should be on twitch?
I think so. I was going to play in a Modern Staples tournament in Los Angeles for a Foil Tarmogoyf, but couldn't because my son is sick. Imagine my (happy) surprise that the SCG tournament is Modern today.
Yes, I imagine it will be on Twitch, as all of the other SCG Opens are, afaik. Looking forward to it.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Round 1 was Dredge vs Bogles that ended in about <15 minutes of play with exactly 1 card of interaction played in the entire match (a single Nature's Claim). Then switched over to a game 3 of Affinity vs Infect, which was finished very quickly itself. (and Jadine who is known for playing Jund, switched herself to Infect). We had about 20-30 mins of replay from a previous event before the next round. Just another snapshot of the format. Let's see how it is the rest of the day.
Edit: Round 2 starts off Ad Nauseam vs Infect. Still looking good!
I used to like watching SCG matches but now everything is so dull and uninteresting.
Who's the commentators today?
The ad nauseam/infect match was painfully dull with extremely mediocre commentary. Mathias Hunt and Ryan Overturf are filling in for Cedric and Patrick.
Edit: LOL replay match was from September 2015 where Twin loses to Slivers.
I have missed a lot of today. Saw the first two rounds, but that was it. I see Bant Spirits is doing stuff lol. Anything of note? Jund/Abzan doing anything? Merfolk perhaps? Or just infect...?
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And yet, rather than say that, you said "it's a deck that requires skills to play it well and if you have so bad results with it you probably lack them." Do you tell that to Jim Davis every time he fails to do well with it? The deck has many fundamental problems and easily has the capacity to lose regardless of who is playing it. Wrong answers in hand and lack of a timely clock are huge obstacles to overcome, especially in a Turn 3.5 format.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
It just seems weird that with all that reasoning, Jund is still #1 and BGx Midrange combine for nearly 14% of the format (16.1% if you include CoCo). Shouldn't your evaluation of fair decks transcend both the BGx fair decks and URx fair decks? If not, why do the BGx decks almost triple the share of all URx decks combined? Is it because one is objectively weaker than the other? That one lacks many of the powerful and generalized tools to deal with everything effectively? That one lacks low-cost high-value threats to present early pressure and close games quickly? I think there might be a fundamental difference between one set of colors and another, and lumping them together by saying "all fair decks face these problems" is disingenuous and misleading.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Maybe Lantern's post was unclear. Let's try again!
This thread is for discussing SCG events and results from SCG events. It is not for discussing bans, the overall metagame, things we like/dislike in Modern, or anything else not related to specific SCG events and results. Any further discussion of those off-topic issues will be warned/infracted accordingly. Take the unrelated discussion to other threads and carry on!
in the current metagame, grixis control isnt a strong choice in power level in relation to the field, so its to no surprise its a tier 3 deck. Good , consistent decks, tend to have high meta% so I disagree with your comment:
"You can't judge tiers from power level. Tiers refer to the percentage of the metagame made up by a deck."
decks playing:
none
im probably going to take a break playing this deck so my opponents can have more fun
decks playing:
none
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=top tier definition
"You can't judge tiers from power level"
I dissagree
User infracted for violating mod text and spamming
-ktkenshinx-
decks playing:
none
how much of the overall modern metagame is made up by the SCG circuit tournaments? (so - what percentage of modern's metagame is SCG data?)
would be interesting to know, because there's obviously quite a few SCG tourneys over the course of a single year.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=28&start_date=09/30/2016&end_date=10/02/2016&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=36&city=Indianapolis
1. Infect
2. RG Breach
3. Burn
4. UR Storm
5. Affinity
6. Grixis Delver
7. Infect
9. Infect
10. Infect
11. GR Tron
12. Jund
13. Merfolk
14. Mono Blue Delver
15. Suicide Zoo
16. Titan Shift
#8 was missing. Maybe a mistake or some cheating involved?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Maybe it was another Infect player and it was intentionally hidden to make the internet not lose their mind as fast.
Seems like a solid option for game two against jund, urx and burn after removal gets sided out
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
Control still has its issues and haven't found a way to emerge in this meta-game.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I think so. I was going to play in a Modern Staples tournament in Los Angeles for a Foil Tarmogoyf, but couldn't because my son is sick. Imagine my (happy) surprise that the SCG tournament is Modern today.
Yes, I imagine it will be on Twitch, as all of the other SCG Opens are, afaik. Looking forward to it.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Edit: Round 2 starts off Ad Nauseam vs Infect. Still looking good!
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Who's the commentators today?
The ad nauseam/infect match was painfully dull with extremely mediocre commentary. Mathias Hunt and Ryan Overturf are filling in for Cedric and Patrick.
Edit: LOL replay match was from September 2015 where Twin loses to Slivers.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate