I'm not going to touch the rest of your post, but I disagree with this part. Chrome Mox wasn't banned because of its interaction with Affinity, it was banned because, when combined with the other acceleration tools in the format, it allowed a given combo deck to break the turn 4 rule consistently. It was the best card for accelerating into a given combo, and therefor it got banned because it gave them the ability to kill on turn 3 to often for Wizard's taste.
On the other hand, Opal is a brutal card in Affinity (if Affinity ever needs a ban, it should definitely be on the potential list), but outside of that one deck and fringe decks, its utterly useless. It will never be as dangerous to the format's health as Chrome Mox is unless Affinity itself is utterly dominating the format. Which isn't going to happen (unless Wizards does something incredibly stupid) since the hate cards are so Brutal to it. Even if it ever did reach an RTR-era Jund level of saturation, it will be forced back down as people dedicate more SB space to the MU and then that's that.
Jeskai storm breaks the turn 4 rule easily, they can constantly ein by turn 2 and will win the rest of their time winning in turn 3. There is no way to easily deal with them this early and I'm going to throw a sissy fit of they don't ban something off that list...
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
Can we at least pretend to have one datapoint (any event at all. A single daily 3-1 finish!) before we talk about banning a card that has been legal for less than a week?
Big debut weekend for Ascendancy Storm. 11th at one of the two SCG IQs. 2nd at a ManaDeprived Modern event. 1st at the Arcanis Deluxe. That means two things for Ascendancy Storm. First, it means that this thread is guaranteed to be busy for at least 3 months. Second, it means we have exactly one weekend of data points in the case to ban anything from that deck. Which is to say, it means exactly nothing at all.
I blame Wizards for the Modern phenomena I call "Modern ban mania". They set the tone with a heavyhanded ban policy early and, ever since, they have been trying to undo that damage. Anyone know how many cards were witch-hunted in various incarnations of this thread? I've lost count, but some standouts include Birthing Pod, Splinter Twin, Griselbrand, Emrakul, Mox Opal, Blighted Agent, Abrupt Decay, and a comically long list of Modern staples that make the format as we know it. And every time we backed up and let the format naturally do its thing, every one of those ban suggestions was proven to be ridiculous.
Now we get to Ascendancy Storm and ban mania is in full force. Moreso than other decks, Ascendancy really arouses the playerbase's ban mania. For one, it's a breakout new deck - Ban mania always scapegoats things that are new and as of yet unincorporated into the metagame. Two, it's a combo deck. Ban mania hates combo decks of all shapes and sizes. And three, it's a FAST combo deck, which means ban mania can indiscriminately accuse it of breaking the turn 4 rule.
The problem with ban mania is that it forgets critical details. In forgetting those details, the ban mania we are seeing after ONE WEEKEND loses all credibility. There are four reasons for that:
The deck was unexpected
No one prepared to play this deck. Sure, people heard about some reddit and SCG-premium hype around it, but it wasn't a serious threat on people's radars. When combo decks are unexpected, they tend to do well. We will need to have at least a dozen tournaments where the deck was expected to extrapolate anything of value.
The metagame was vulnerable to fast combo
What two decks have been ripping up the metagame of late? Burn and Affinity. Burn especially has been a natural shift that came out of a BGx Midrange saturated Modern, so of course a combo deck was going to do well. Guess what happens when BGx Midrange comes back? Or UWR Control? Bad news for the Storm players.
The deck must be BOTH fast AND "top tier"
Whenever anyone discusses the turn 4 rule, they forget the second half of it. Everyone remembers the speed bit. But speed is obviously not enough; Infect, Griselbrand Reanimator, cheerios, and a bunch of other decks all aim to break the turn 4 rule. And yet, all of those decks are legal and accepted parts of Modern. Why? Because they aren't "top tier". Infect, despite sending two players to the T8 of a Grand Prix, is still not considered "top tier" enough to warrant a ban based on its blistering speed. To say that Ascendancy is even close to that point after just ONE WEEKEND is completely ridiculous. Which brings me to my last point...
It's been ONE WEEKEND.
Have some perspective. N is tiny. We cannot possibly extrapolate anything from one weekend. KTK isn't even part of MTGO yet! We just aren't even close to having enough data points to reasonably propose that this deck needs bannings.
Resist ban mania. Remember Griselbrand, Puresteel Paladin, and Blighted Agent. Remember all the people who were wrong about Valakut, Wild Nacatl, and Bitterblossom.
With all that said, I will acknowledge the one scenario that will likely lead to an Ascendancy Storm ban. If that deck hits >10% of the MTGO metagame, along with 1-2 GP T8s/T16s and making up about 10% of SCG IQ T8s, then it's in big trouble. Those are Seething Song Storm numbers, and if Ascendancy Storm reaches that point, it will almost definitely eat (and probably deserve eating) a ban on something.
More news from Toronto as storm/eggs/High Tide veteran Noah Long won the SOMS Invitational (invitation-only finale of a summer-long tournament series) with Jeskai Ascendancy. Go nuts.
I only got into modern less than a year ago so this may seem like a stupid question, but why in gods name was puresteel paladin even considered for a ban in modern, let alone playable? Was this before the printing of abrupt decay making equipment based strategies questionable at best? Or did people temporarily forget that lightning bolt was a good card? I personally don't think that anything should be banned right now, though I still expect it because of the approach that wizards has had in the past like ktken mentioned.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
The deck must be BOTH fast AND "top tier"
Whenever anyone discusses the turn 4 rule, they forget the second half of it. Everyone remembers the speed bit. But speed is obviously not enough; Infect, Griselbrand Reanimator, cheerios, and a bunch of other decks all aim to break the turn 4 rule. And yet, all of those decks are legal and accepted parts of Modern. Why? Because they aren't "top tier". Infect, despite sending two players to the T8 of a Grand Prix, is still not considered "top tier" enough to warrant a ban based on its blistering speed. To say that Ascendancy is even close to that point after just ONE WEEKEND is completely ridiculous. Which brings me to my last point...
Well, another difference for Infect that I think Aaron Forsythe (or someone who worked at WOTC) alluded to on Twitter when asked about it (and I'm sorry I can't remember who it was or where the tweet was, this was at least a year ago) was that a key point for Infect is that it's a quite interactive combo. Creature removal can beat it, and unlike Splinter Twin's combo, you can even beat it by just blocking. Yes, Infect has ways around those things (Blighted Agent and Inkmoth Nexus have evasion, Rancor's trample can get through a blocker), but it's still something that, if nothing else, slows them down.
So sure, goldfishing with Infect can often win you the game on turn 3, but it's one of the easiest combo decks to interact with in Game 1 because so many maindeck cards can at least delay it. In practice, it really doesn't win that often before turn 4.
I only got into modern less than a year ago so this may seem like a stupid question, but why in gods name was puresteel paladin even considered for a ban in modern, let alone playable? Was this before the printing of abrupt decay making equipment based strategies questionable at best? Or did people temporarily forget that lightning bolt was a good card?
I'm not sure that Puresteel Paladin was ever seriously considered banworthy.
However, it's not that difficult to see why it's powerful. If you pair Puresteel Paladin with a bunch of efficient, low-cost equipment (Basilisk Collar, Bonesplitter, Swiftfoot boots), then each one of those cards ends up equipping for zero AND draws another card. Your finishers would probably be Batterskull, Loxodon Warhammer, and/or Sunforger.
Like you suggest, it's a pretty fragile concept, but if your opponent doesn't have an Abrupt Decay or a Lightning Bolt in hand and the mana to cast it, then he or she may lose the opportunity to hit the Paladin (because it quickly acquires some Swiftfoot Boots).
There appears to be an old primer for this, located here.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I only got into modern less than a year ago so this may seem like a stupid question, but why in gods name was puresteel paladin even considered for a ban in modern, let alone playable? Was this before the printing of abrupt decay making equipment based strategies questionable at best? Or did people temporarily forget that lightning bolt was a good card? I personally don't think that anything should be banned right now, though I still expect it because of the approach that wizards has had in the past like ktken mentioned.
The deck has been around for a while but suffers from fragility and consistency issues; poor Puresteel isn't the most durable engine in the format. Someone took the deck to GP Richmond and ended up going 6-3 or something similar (don't remember exactly), winning about half of his games on turn 2/3, and losing the other half of games to the fragile engine. Glass cannon combo decks like this definitely don't deserve banning, even if they actively aim to break the turn 4 rule; they just aren't consistent enough to be top tier.
It remains to be seen whether Ascendancy Storm is 1) a cheeri0s style fringe glass cannon (unlikely), 2) a Griselbrand Reanimator glass cannon that sees competitive play but never goes big (more likely), 3) a post Seething Song ban Storm style deck that makes up about 5% of any given metagame (the likeliest), or 4) a Seething Song/Blazing Shoal monstrosity that eats up 10%+ of metagames and regularly wins on turn 3 (less likely again).
More news from Toronto as storm/eggs/High Tide veteran Noah Long won the SOMS Invitational (invitation-only finale of a summer-long tournament series) with Jeskai Ascendancy. Go nuts.
As I was there, not only him, but other players with the deck had rounds go into time +20 minutes on occasion.
The deck is fast, resilient, and can add a whole lot of time to a tournament.
I don't usually jump the gun, but give it until after GP Milan, and I can guarantee something from that deck will be banned before PT Washington.
More news from Toronto as storm/eggs/High Tide veteran Noah Long won the SOMS Invitational (invitation-only finale of a summer-long tournament series) with Jeskai Ascendancy. Go nuts.
As I was there, not only him, but other players with the deck had rounds go into time +20 minutes on occasion.
The deck is fast, resilient, and can add a whole lot of time to a tournament.
I don't usually jump the gun, but give it until after GP Milan, and I can guarantee something from that deck will be banned before PT Washington.
Even if the deck is as good and resilient as people are claiming, and I'm not saying that it isn't, I doubt it'll be banned before the pro tour. A brand new card being a dominant fore at a PT and enabling a totally new deck makes for good advertisements, even if it does get banned 6 months later like with death rite shaman to some extent.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
Well after playing with the deck all week id have to say there is no 1 card that makes the deck as good as it is besides Jeskai Ascendancy. You can blame Wish or Cruise but all they do is get you pieces. The actual combo enabler is the enchantment itself. I don't want the deck to be banned, but banning Wish would hurt it, banning Cruise does nothing, and banning the enchantment itself kills the deck. In my opinion, the Ascendancy would need the banning. Wish can be used in other decks, Cruise can be used in other decks (Wizards doesn't like banning cards that see play in multiple decks) however Ascendancy sees play in only this deck because otherwise, its pretty bad in other decks. Its a lot like wanting to ban Emrakul as opposed to something like Polymorph. One can see play in multiple decks and can be used in different ways while the other just screams "BREAK ME!"
I love the deck and I own most of the list besides the wishes which I regret not getting at 2 dollars each. But people have been complaining that Wizards doesn't print format impacting cards and this one is just that. It makes a whole new deck, a whole new archetype, and its something that hasn't been done before in Modern.
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Active Modern Decks
U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
There are three precedents to look to when thinking about Ascendancy Storm.
The first is the Blazing Shoal case. Although Shoal Infect was broken, there was nothing run with the infect mechanic generally. So long as Shoal was around, any of those creatures (Elf, Inkmoth, Agent, Stinger, etc.) were all problematic. Kill Shoal and those cards can all see fair play in the format. If this is our precedent for Ascendancy Storm, then Jeskai Ascendancy itself would be banned.
The second is the Seething Song case. In that instance, Storm was too strong and fast in its current form, making up too much of the metagame and winning too consistently on turn 3. But by removing some cards from the list, Wizards thought it could be toned down. That single ban made the deck much fairer and although it took until the DRS banning for it to be really viable, it is now an acceptable combo deck in the format. Sure, it's a little underpowered, but it's overall quite fair. If this is our precedent for Ascendancy Storm, then Glittering Wish would be banned.
The third case is Griselbrand and Goryo's Vengeance. Those were two cards which, even during the height of DRS, were still tearing up MTGO with turn 2 and turn 3 wins. The deck even got T16 at GP Kansas City, just missing the T8 by a single game. I remember how worried people were about this deck and its cards, and how this thread was full of ban talk. The deck even went under the moniker of #griselbanned for a while (admittedly more a Legacy reference than Modern), and multiple articles talked about how broken it was. Then what happened? Nothing. All the cards are still legal and the deck is totally fine. Indeed, it seems even less play now than it used to. If this is our precedent for Ascendancy Storm, then nothing will be banned from the deck.
Right now, there is no way for us to know if we have a Shoal case, a Song case, or a Griselbrand case. We just need more information.
There are three precedents to look to when thinking about Ascendancy Storm.
The first is the Blazing Shoal case. Although Shoal Infect was broken, there was nothing run with the infect mechanic generally. So long as Shoal was around, any of those creatures (Elf, Inkmoth, Agent, Stinger, etc.) were all problematic. Kill Shoal and those cards can all see fair play in the format. If this is our precedent for Ascendancy Storm, then Jeskai Ascendancy itself would be banned.
The second is the Seething Song case. In that instance, Storm was too strong and fast in its current form, making up too much of the metagame and winning too consistently on turn 3. But by removing some cards from the list, Wizards thought it could be toned down. That single ban made the deck much fairer and although it took until the DRS banning for it to be really viable, it is now an acceptable combo deck in the format. Sure, it's a little underpowered, but it's overall quite fair. If this is our precedent for Ascendancy Storm, then Glittering Wish would be banned.
The third case is Griselbrand and Goryo's Vengeance. Those were two cards which, even during the height of DRS, were still tearing up MTGO with turn 2 and turn 3 wins. The deck even got T16 at GP Kansas City, just missing the T8 by a single game. I remember how worried people were about this deck and its cards, and how this thread was full of ban talk. The deck even went under the moniker of #griselbanned for a while (admittedly more a Legacy reference than Modern), and multiple articles talked about how broken it was. Then what happened? Nothing. All the cards are still legal and the deck is totally fine. Indeed, it seems even less play now than it used to. If this is our precedent for Ascendancy Storm, then nothing will be banned from the deck.
Right now, there is no way for us to know if we have a Shoal case, a Song case, or a Griselbrand case. We just need more information.
Very well spoken, I agree with all of this. I'd wait until at least another month before making my judgement on either side. That way not only will the people running it have more results, or lack thereof, but also more people will hear about the deck and decide to acquire the cards and play it for themselves. That will give us a much better idea of where the deck stands. Personally I think it's always great when a deck suddenly appears that is entirely enabled by a new set, it's just super cool to me. Sadly it's another combo deck, but it's still new and interesting which is nice.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
I'm not saying that the deck will get a ban but if there is a ban it's unlikely to be Ascendency. While Ascendancy is the card that allows turn 2-3 kills, Wish is the card that gives the deck it's consistency. Infect and Griselbrand/Vengeance combo show that WotC don't mind turn 2-3 wins in the format as long as they're not consistent. Therefore, it stands to logic that, as long as Ascendency doesn't get utilized by multiple combo decks to break the rules, it'll be Wish that gets the ban, not Ascendency. Moreover, WotC aren't going to ban a card that is selling booster packs unless absolutely necessary.
Even though I agree with this assessment, I really hope that Glittering Wish doesn't get whacked by the banhammer. Glittering Wish has been in Modern for as long as Modern has been around, and it's never been a problem before. It's always had potential, and people love running wishboards. It just seems like such a waste for Glittering Wish gets the axe over Ascendancy Storm.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
More news from Toronto as storm/eggs/High Tide veteran Noah Long won the SOMS Invitational (invitation-only finale of a summer-long tournament series) with Jeskai Ascendancy. Go nuts.
Can you please give me deck links, were you actually at the event and thus only learned about the win firsthand, or did you just read that he won?
I'm not saying that the deck will get a ban but if there is a ban it's unlikely to be Ascendency. While Ascendancy is the card that allows turn 2-3 kills, Wish is the card that gives the deck it's consistency. Infect and Griselbrand/Vengeance combo show that WotC don't mind turn 2-3 wins in the format as long as they're not consistent. Therefore, it stands to logic that, as long as Ascendency doesn't get utilized by multiple combo decks to break the rules, it'll be Wish that gets the ban, not Ascendency. Moreover, WotC aren't going to ban a card that is selling booster packs unless absolutely necessary.
Even though I agree with this assessment, I really hope that Glittering Wish doesn't get whacked by the banhammer. Glittering Wish has been in Modern for as long as Modern has been around, and it's never been a problem before. It's always had potential, and people love running wishboards. It just seems like such a waste for Glittering Wish gets the axe over Ascendancy Storm.
I would caution anyone from comparing the card to anything until we have more data. See my post above; we just don't know if it's a Blazing Shoal crisis, a Seething Song situation, or a Griselbrand false alarm. At the bare minimum, we need one full week of MTGO data to meaningfully discuss this card and how it should be treated in regards to the banlist.
If they ban something from the deck it'll be ascendancy no doubt.
Since it needs to cast that 3CC enchant, I hope the deck becomes a goryos vengance deck and not a shoal deck. The thing that worries me the most is the pod style of t1 dork t2 brokencard... but since pod already does that and when it does that it wins, and it still is fine, I guess that won't be... enough?
But I'll make sure I sell my 4 wishes when they are at their peak price :).
I would caution anyone from comparing the card to anything until we have more data. See my post above; we just don't know if it's a Blazing Shoal crisis, a Seething Song situation, or a Griselbrand false alarm. At the bare minimum, we need one full week of MTGO data to meaningfully discuss this card and how it should be treated in regards to the banlist.
I haven't even gotten the pre-release cards I ordered...
I think that most of you are overestimating Ascendancy. It is a good card but it is still a creature-based combo deck that doesn't have much room for protection spells. The format has dealt with those before and it will continue to do so.
I think that most of you are overestimating Ascendancy. It is a good card but it is still a creature-based combo deck that doesn't have much room for protection spells. The format has dealt with those before and it will continue to do so.
The worrying part for me is that, unlike UR Storm, Ascendancy Storm has room for 4 protection spells easy-peasy. They're called Glittering Wish for protection/anti-hate. It can easily go up to 8+ protection post-board with Swan Song (as seen by tournament coverage).
Oh well, I predict Ascendancy Storm won't eat the meta alive because of even to rough match-ups against BGx Midrange, UWR Control/Kiki (although Geist of Saint Win gets eaten alive), UR Delver, and RG Tron(!!!), a problem handling Eidolon of the Great Revel, and generally being eaten alive by Twin and Faeries...although creaming Scapeshift and regularly racing UR Storm and Ad Nauseam pre-board with Slaughter Games builds and forcing aggro to play 8+ removal spells, be Infect, or be Affinity (i.e. GW Hatebears, D&T, Merfolk, and likely Bogles get forced out) is likely not a good thing.
I think that most of you are overestimating Ascendancy. It is a good card but it is still a creature-based combo deck that doesn't have much room for protection spells. The format has dealt with those before and it will continue to do so.
The worrying part for me is that, unlike UR Storm, Ascendancy Storm has room for 4 protection spells easy-peasy. They're called Glittering Wish for protection/anti-hate. It can easily go up to 8+ protection post-board with Swan Song (as seen by tournament coverage).
Oh well, I predict Ascendancy Storm won't eat the meta alive because of even to rough match-ups against BGx Midrange, UWR Control/Kiki (although Geist of Saint Win gets eaten alive), UR Delver, and RG Tron(!!!), a problem handling Eidolon of the Great Revel, and generally being eaten alive by Twin and Faeries...although creaming Scapeshift and regularly racing UR Storm and Ad Nauseam pre-board with Slaughter Games builds and forcing aggro to play 8+ removal spells, be Infect, or be Affinity (i.e. GW Hatebears, D&T, Merfolk, and likely Bogles get forced out) is likely not a good thing.
Glittering Wish for protection works, but it is still very slow. The deck is certainly playable, but it is much less resilient than Shoal Infect, much faster than Second Sunrise Eggs, and much more interactive than Seething Song Storm. It should be fine.
Guys isn't it a bit early to call for a ban literally a couple days after the deck came out? It's not even a consistent deck all in all, bg/x crushes it most of the times, and it has plenty of horrible matchups. People didn't expect it, they probably lost more than what they should. Pilots just played it, they have to learn kinks and tricks to make it go quicker. Also I'm extremely worried that every card that might be a tad slow for tournaments has to be axed... I don't want to be flame-y but damn, if sensei's divining top, brainstorm, and all the shuffle don't break legacy, why ascendancy storm should break modern? I could see a remote point for eggs since I was baffled myself on how damn slow and painfull was that deck, but I can't see this discussion the second day after the deck came to be.
Patience is a virtue...
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Vintage nostalgic, WUB Fish control/aggro addicted.
Legacy:RUG Temur Delver
Modern: ??? undecided.
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I'm not going to touch the rest of your post, but I disagree with this part. Chrome Mox wasn't banned because of its interaction with Affinity, it was banned because, when combined with the other acceleration tools in the format, it allowed a given combo deck to break the turn 4 rule consistently. It was the best card for accelerating into a given combo, and therefor it got banned because it gave them the ability to kill on turn 3 to often for Wizard's taste.
On the other hand, Opal is a brutal card in Affinity (if Affinity ever needs a ban, it should definitely be on the potential list), but outside of that one deck and fringe decks, its utterly useless. It will never be as dangerous to the format's health as Chrome Mox is unless Affinity itself is utterly dominating the format. Which isn't going to happen (unless Wizards does something incredibly stupid) since the hate cards are so Brutal to it. Even if it ever did reach an RTR-era Jund level of saturation, it will be forced back down as people dedicate more SB space to the MU and then that's that.
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
There ya go:
http://www.mtgdecks.net/events/view/15367
I blame Wizards for the Modern phenomena I call "Modern ban mania". They set the tone with a heavyhanded ban policy early and, ever since, they have been trying to undo that damage. Anyone know how many cards were witch-hunted in various incarnations of this thread? I've lost count, but some standouts include Birthing Pod, Splinter Twin, Griselbrand, Emrakul, Mox Opal, Blighted Agent, Abrupt Decay, and a comically long list of Modern staples that make the format as we know it. And every time we backed up and let the format naturally do its thing, every one of those ban suggestions was proven to be ridiculous.
Now we get to Ascendancy Storm and ban mania is in full force. Moreso than other decks, Ascendancy really arouses the playerbase's ban mania. For one, it's a breakout new deck - Ban mania always scapegoats things that are new and as of yet unincorporated into the metagame. Two, it's a combo deck. Ban mania hates combo decks of all shapes and sizes. And three, it's a FAST combo deck, which means ban mania can indiscriminately accuse it of breaking the turn 4 rule.
The problem with ban mania is that it forgets critical details. In forgetting those details, the ban mania we are seeing after ONE WEEKEND loses all credibility. There are four reasons for that:
With all that said, I will acknowledge the one scenario that will likely lead to an Ascendancy Storm ban. If that deck hits >10% of the MTGO metagame, along with 1-2 GP T8s/T16s and making up about 10% of SCG IQ T8s, then it's in big trouble. Those are Seething Song Storm numbers, and if Ascendancy Storm reaches that point, it will almost definitely eat (and probably deserve eating) a ban on something.
UW UW Gideon Control WU
UWR Loose Control RWU
GR Scapeshift RG
RU Storm UR
So sure, goldfishing with Infect can often win you the game on turn 3, but it's one of the easiest combo decks to interact with in Game 1 because so many maindeck cards can at least delay it. In practice, it really doesn't win that often before turn 4.
I'm not sure that Puresteel Paladin was ever seriously considered banworthy.
However, it's not that difficult to see why it's powerful. If you pair Puresteel Paladin with a bunch of efficient, low-cost equipment (Basilisk Collar, Bonesplitter, Swiftfoot boots), then each one of those cards ends up equipping for zero AND draws another card. Your finishers would probably be Batterskull, Loxodon Warhammer, and/or Sunforger.
Like you suggest, it's a pretty fragile concept, but if your opponent doesn't have an Abrupt Decay or a Lightning Bolt in hand and the mana to cast it, then he or she may lose the opportunity to hit the Paladin (because it quickly acquires some Swiftfoot Boots).
There appears to be an old primer for this, located here.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Puresteel is the core engine of the cheeri0s combo deck, a fast combo deck that aims to win on turn 2 or turn 3:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-deck-creation/221736-modern-cheeri0s-reboot
The deck has been around for a while but suffers from fragility and consistency issues; poor Puresteel isn't the most durable engine in the format. Someone took the deck to GP Richmond and ended up going 6-3 or something similar (don't remember exactly), winning about half of his games on turn 2/3, and losing the other half of games to the fragile engine. Glass cannon combo decks like this definitely don't deserve banning, even if they actively aim to break the turn 4 rule; they just aren't consistent enough to be top tier.
It remains to be seen whether Ascendancy Storm is 1) a cheeri0s style fringe glass cannon (unlikely), 2) a Griselbrand Reanimator glass cannon that sees competitive play but never goes big (more likely), 3) a post Seething Song ban Storm style deck that makes up about 5% of any given metagame (the likeliest), or 4) a Seething Song/Blazing Shoal monstrosity that eats up 10%+ of metagames and regularly wins on turn 3 (less likely again).
At this point, we just need more data.
As I was there, not only him, but other players with the deck had rounds go into time +20 minutes on occasion.
The deck is fast, resilient, and can add a whole lot of time to a tournament.
I don't usually jump the gun, but give it until after GP Milan, and I can guarantee something from that deck will be banned before PT Washington.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Even if the deck is as good and resilient as people are claiming, and I'm not saying that it isn't, I doubt it'll be banned before the pro tour. A brand new card being a dominant fore at a PT and enabling a totally new deck makes for good advertisements, even if it does get banned 6 months later like with death rite shaman to some extent.
The cards that make the deck run are Glittering Wish and Treasure Cruise. Without those the deck really has no legs to stand on.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
I love the deck and I own most of the list besides the wishes which I regret not getting at 2 dollars each. But people have been complaining that Wizards doesn't print format impacting cards and this one is just that. It makes a whole new deck, a whole new archetype, and its something that hasn't been done before in Modern.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
The first is the Blazing Shoal case. Although Shoal Infect was broken, there was nothing run with the infect mechanic generally. So long as Shoal was around, any of those creatures (Elf, Inkmoth, Agent, Stinger, etc.) were all problematic. Kill Shoal and those cards can all see fair play in the format. If this is our precedent for Ascendancy Storm, then Jeskai Ascendancy itself would be banned.
The second is the Seething Song case. In that instance, Storm was too strong and fast in its current form, making up too much of the metagame and winning too consistently on turn 3. But by removing some cards from the list, Wizards thought it could be toned down. That single ban made the deck much fairer and although it took until the DRS banning for it to be really viable, it is now an acceptable combo deck in the format. Sure, it's a little underpowered, but it's overall quite fair. If this is our precedent for Ascendancy Storm, then Glittering Wish would be banned.
The third case is Griselbrand and Goryo's Vengeance. Those were two cards which, even during the height of DRS, were still tearing up MTGO with turn 2 and turn 3 wins. The deck even got T16 at GP Kansas City, just missing the T8 by a single game. I remember how worried people were about this deck and its cards, and how this thread was full of ban talk. The deck even went under the moniker of #griselbanned for a while (admittedly more a Legacy reference than Modern), and multiple articles talked about how broken it was. Then what happened? Nothing. All the cards are still legal and the deck is totally fine. Indeed, it seems even less play now than it used to. If this is our precedent for Ascendancy Storm, then nothing will be banned from the deck.
Right now, there is no way for us to know if we have a Shoal case, a Song case, or a Griselbrand case. We just need more information.
Very well spoken, I agree with all of this. I'd wait until at least another month before making my judgement on either side. That way not only will the people running it have more results, or lack thereof, but also more people will hear about the deck and decide to acquire the cards and play it for themselves. That will give us a much better idea of where the deck stands. Personally I think it's always great when a deck suddenly appears that is entirely enabled by a new set, it's just super cool to me. Sadly it's another combo deck, but it's still new and interesting which is nice.
Even though I agree with this assessment, I really hope that Glittering Wish doesn't get whacked by the banhammer. Glittering Wish has been in Modern for as long as Modern has been around, and it's never been a problem before. It's always had potential, and people love running wishboards. It just seems like such a waste for Glittering Wish gets the axe over Ascendancy Storm.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Can you please give me deck links, were you actually at the event and thus only learned about the win firsthand, or did you just read that he won?
I can link it if/when the TO puts it up on their website if you want.
UW UW Gideon Control WU
UWR Loose Control RWU
GR Scapeshift RG
RU Storm UR
I would caution anyone from comparing the card to anything until we have more data. See my post above; we just don't know if it's a Blazing Shoal crisis, a Seething Song situation, or a Griselbrand false alarm. At the bare minimum, we need one full week of MTGO data to meaningfully discuss this card and how it should be treated in regards to the banlist.
Since it needs to cast that 3CC enchant, I hope the deck becomes a goryos vengance deck and not a shoal deck. The thing that worries me the most is the pod style of t1 dork t2 brokencard... but since pod already does that and when it does that it wins, and it still is fine, I guess that won't be... enough?
But I'll make sure I sell my 4 wishes when they are at their peak price :).
I haven't even gotten the pre-release cards I ordered...
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The worrying part for me is that, unlike UR Storm, Ascendancy Storm has room for 4 protection spells easy-peasy. They're called Glittering Wish for protection/anti-hate. It can easily go up to 8+ protection post-board with Swan Song (as seen by tournament coverage).
Oh well, I predict Ascendancy Storm won't eat the meta alive because of even to rough match-ups against BGx Midrange, UWR Control/Kiki (although Geist of Saint Win gets eaten alive), UR Delver, and RG Tron(!!!), a problem handling Eidolon of the Great Revel, and generally being eaten alive by Twin and Faeries...although creaming Scapeshift and regularly racing UR Storm and Ad Nauseam pre-board with Slaughter Games builds and forcing aggro to play 8+ removal spells, be Infect, or be Affinity (i.e. GW Hatebears, D&T, Merfolk, and likely Bogles get forced out) is likely not a good thing.
Glittering Wish for protection works, but it is still very slow. The deck is certainly playable, but it is much less resilient than Shoal Infect, much faster than Second Sunrise Eggs, and much more interactive than Seething Song Storm. It should be fine.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Patience is a virtue...
Legacy:RUG Temur Delver
Modern: ??? undecided.